Author Topic: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2  (Read 245511 times)

Offline Ofiach

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #210 on: May 25, 2013, 01:08:36 am »
I don't know if this is the right thread for this but,  does the heavy carronade actually shoot like a shotgun?

When I was playing with it I couldn't tell if the projectiles just spread too much to hit or if they just kinda vanished after a set distance.

Offline Mattilald Anguisad

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #211 on: May 25, 2013, 07:31:18 pm »
Mechanicaly it's Raycast like Gattling, but it indeed shoots like shootgun - might want to try heavy to decrease spread at range (reduses max range, but you'll not probably miss anyway at max range). both carrorades have relatively short range (450m ?)

Offline Ofiach

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #212 on: May 25, 2013, 10:06:14 pm »
This is what is throwing me. The hitmarkers from the carronades don't really spread with range. At point blank its one big hitmarker at ~400 meters its still one big hitmarker. I don't have a huge amount of experience with the gun so I dunno if it's supposed to be shooting slugs or buckshot.

Offline Machiavelliest

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #213 on: May 25, 2013, 10:12:52 pm »
I'm with Ofiach.  The number of carronade projectiles seems way too low.  It makes the shatter aspect of it pretty worthless, even with heavy rounds loaded, but the shatter is nonexistant without heavy because there aren't enough hits to run a chance of getting components.

Offline Belcard

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #214 on: May 25, 2013, 11:28:51 pm »
Before, the LJ only had 4 shots.  However, this was increased because most players could not hit with the LJ before their clip ran out.  The first few shots were always used as gauging ones.  I don't have plans changing this because it doesn't seem like a lot of other players are using the LJ in this manner be it difficulty or what.  Until it becomes an issue, when a lot of players are abusing it, then there is no reason for me to change it.

Until then, I applaud your skill with it and please continue to ruin people's days with it.

This post is aimed at Awkm in particular, though anybody should feel free to reply to address issues within. Also please note, I mean no offense to anyone with what I'm about to say.


The gist of what Awkm said strikes me as "People were bitching that they couldn't hit shit with the Lumberjack so we increased the clip count to compensate for their poor aiming ability."


At a glance, the Lumberjack feels and operates like a long-range balloon-popping weapon. Meant to shred an enemy ship's balloon, it more than excels at its job. However, that's not the problem. The problem comes into play once your ship's balloon has been popped by said Lumberjack and the ship continues to hover just beyond the arming distance for the weapon and keep popping your balloon the moment it's repaired.

This leads into the ever-frustrating scenario of bouncing around on the ground, virtually helpless, until you either die or an allied ship saves you, given they haven't also had their balloon popped or aren't otherwise engaged with an enemy ship. Not to mention that once the balloon is down, the Lumberjack easily begins stripping away the armor on your ship, sending all the Engineers on board into repair mode which, as I've previously stated, virtually disables you from fighting back.


Now, along the same path of disabling an enemy ship, dual Hwacha Galleons can wreak total havoc on an enemy ship's guns with a single barrage. However, unlike the Lumberjack, Hwachas deal almost no armor damage but can just about insta-gib permahull while the Lumberjack can rip through balloon, armor, and permahull with relative ease.

The difference comes from the fact once the balloon is down, a captain only needs to keep their ship out of the firing arcs of the ship with a disabled balloon. Then on top of that, the damage from the Lumberjack's shots transfer into armor, then into permahull. Meaning a single Lumberjack can hit for upwards of 600-700 damage with a full clip. The Hwacha, on the other hand, only really excels in destroying weapons and engines. It doesn't transfer damage that fast to the armor or hull.


Getting to the point here..

Using the numbers on the website, we can agree the Lumberjack deals 300 x 1.8 (540) flechette damage and 50 x 0.2 (10) shatter damage. This means it has a total balloon damage of 550. This means that before, with four shells, the Lumberjack had a total of 2,200 damage versus balloons. After the buff to six shells, the Lumberjack now deals 3,300 damage versus balloons.

This means that there are two major choices to bring the weapon back in line with the damage it had pre-buff..

Option A) Reduce the Lumberjack's flechette damage to 200

Option B) Revert the Lumberjack back to four shells in a clip


TL;DR - Lumberjack was a weapon that required skill to use, people lacked the skill, complained because they didn't want to use a less skill-intensive weapon and got the weapon changed into a state of overpowered proportions.
FIX IT
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 11:32:13 pm by Belcard »

Offline Imagine

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #215 on: May 25, 2013, 11:37:27 pm »
Been using the LJ on a goldfish for the past few days just to see how it feels... while it's good, it's be no means OP (or, at least not any more than it ever was). Even if you get balloon popped, it takes a pretty sizable amount of time to actually completely down an enemy ship with it alone. If you're also hitting with other guns I guess there could be some difference, but there's various combinations of guns that could be considered as pretty OP as well.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #216 on: May 25, 2013, 11:55:00 pm »
Take any gun in a vaccuum and they wont kill anything by themselves, except for a carronade or a LJ. The LJ is alot better at it though. The carronade is naturally gimped by having very short range. (not getting into it not pointing down :P)

Even the carronades damage potential is nowhere near as high as a LJ's. Also as I was going into on the carronade that weapons disable ability seems very weak because it shoots a slug and not buckshot.

But back on the LJ, its balloon damage potential of 3300 when balloons (still wondering about this number) have 1200 hp is insanity! you can literally miss half the clip. 3 shots is still 1650 damage, 1 Mallet hit ain't saving that balloon and taking it to 4 shots.

This is ground I've gone over before so it's nice to see other people mentioning it. It's raw damage is far above anything else.

I also have to agree with Belcards take on awkms post. I had already ruffled enough feathers there so I didn't jump on it but Belcards take is spot on.

@Mach.... you read my mind on where I was going with that line of reasoning. The carronade seems very very goofy in its fire mechanics I don't understand why it even has shatter when it seems to just launch one big slug.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #217 on: May 26, 2013, 12:26:44 am »
The Carronade is a raycast weapon and as I understand launches a number of simulated projectiles within a cone for a limited range. Damage is calculated on components based on the number of projectiles that make contact however due to the large (40) number of projectiles hit markers are not shown for all hits.

As far as the Lumberjack goes, everything that can be said has been said 10 times. Some people want it nerfed, others do not. There's not much more to say than that however if people feel they'd like to express more on this Isstrongly encourage they start a new thread specifically for that topic.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #218 on: May 26, 2013, 12:31:20 am »
I've started a lumberjack discussion thread. Please post your concerns/lack thereof over there.

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1217.0.html

Offline Ofiach

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #219 on: May 26, 2013, 12:35:20 am »
The Carronade is a raycast weapon and as I understand launches a number of simulated projectiles within a cone for a limited range. Damage is calculated on components based on the number of projectiles that make contact however due to the large (40) number of projectiles hit markers are not shown for all hits.

Couple questions here good sir.
Where are you getting that projectile number from?
Also I can understand not showing all of them, but what is the reasoning behind just showing one big gotcha hitmarker?

The second one is probably more of an Awkm question but yeah. The hitmarker is almost always just one or two big markers. Why not at least show markers on every component that got tagged so maybe a gunner can know "hey I got his two turns with that last shot lemme put my next shot right into those engines to wreck em."

Offline Machiavelliest

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #220 on: May 27, 2013, 07:22:25 am »
I will agree that the eruption of snowflakes that would be caused when all the alleged projectiles were hitmarked would be disturbing.

The issue isn't with the graphical representation as much as the fact the carronade doesn't wreck anything but balloons in any real capacity, despite stats suggesting it does.  Whether there's one projectile or 40, the mechanics are the core issue.  That's my own opinion, though.

Offline Mattilald Anguisad

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #221 on: May 27, 2013, 08:03:40 am »
The issue isn't with the graphical representation as much as the fact the carronade doesn't wreck anything but balloons in any real capacity, despite stats suggesting it does. 

The problem here is that the wepon has too much spread to be reliable against enything else. It's possible with heavy clip if you are in their face to destroy larger components like weapons, but it's not what you can rely on. It's relatively easy to destroy hull armor with it..

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #222 on: May 27, 2013, 10:55:17 am »
I stopped playing with carronade after the Nerf but I distinctly remember having Shinkurex on my blender fish using heavy clip to snipe out any enemies components one by one with high success.

I've also been on the receiving end of it more than once.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #223 on: May 27, 2013, 11:08:45 am »
Don't tell me you guys want to nerf the blender too ;/

They already nerfed the hull armor modifier for flechette, as well as the firing arc.

Smollett is also correct to say that it can hit guns. It's very much a secondary thing, but breaking a heavy gun staring at your face can be life/death.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #224 on: May 27, 2013, 11:21:46 am »
I was more along the lines of wanting to be able to see everything it hit. as it stands I don't see how it could be anywhere near 40 projectiles when I can tag a junker from ~150 meters and only get a hull and balloon hitmarker.

I'm not saying it's over or under powered I just want a little bit more feedback from the hitmarkers on it. Not to mention knowing where this 40 projectile number is coming from.