Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: awkm on April 30, 2013, 02:23:48 pm
-
Everything about guns in v1.2
No major revisions occurred in this round aside from improved particle trails/effects. Some slight adjustments to turn radius and spread on some guns to account for these visual tweaks.
Upcoming is experimentation for Field Gun shots penetrating through objects. Again, this is just testing for now although I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on it anyway. For each NEW component the bullet hits, it will apply both primary and secondary damage. Again, only NEW components. A component cannot be hit twice with the same bullet.
Mine launcher has been delayed. Hopefully out within the next few weeks.
-
I miss the old harpoon. It used to be that you'd hit someone with it, and it would fling both them and you in unpredictable directions, it was the only ship-moving weapon in the game. Now it really doesn't do that, now it's more like a tow rope.
Working more realistically? For sure.
Working as intended? I dunno, is it?
Still competitive? Not on a galleon anymore, squids might get some new use out of it.
I just miss the old harpoon.
-
I miss the old harpoon. It used to be that you'd hit someone with it, and it would fling both them and you in unpredictable directions, it was the only ship-moving weapon in the game. Now it really doesn't do that, now it's more like a tow rope.
Working more realistically? For sure.
Working as intended? I dunno, is it?
Still competitive? Not on a galleon anymore, squids might get some new use out of it.
I just miss the old harpoon.
The harpoon logic is really weird. As I said before, it's very very realistic. Realistic to the point that no one really understands what's going on, there are just too many forces at play here that it's impossible for our human brains to commute. Jay, the programmer who implemented this assures me that this is what the real-life physics equations would dictate.
I decreased the force the harpoon applies a patch or two ago and it got better, it didn't fling you all too much but the results were more predictable. However, ships back then all had the same mass. So now that mass is actually respected, the harpoon doesn't feel the same way as before. In fact, it's acting has it should be but no one knew what it would feel like shooting a ship of different mass.
The harpoon is a long-term project. I want to get to the point where you have tug boats. Yes, Squid tug boats. That means engine thrust is a huge part of the equation.
-
So I took a Full-artemis Junker for a spin, and I found it was like a constant Hwacha Barrage, the artemis seems strong now, abit too strong however. I can see people going with this full-on Mini-hwacha.
It would be fair if the reload was abit longer, but right now I can pretty much lock down anything within seconds, and decimate them.
-
Well one more thing. We really need more piercing weapons. If you don't include the harpoon for practicality purposes, there's only two piercing guns, which means pretty much every ship will bring one or the other, that's not a lot of diversity.
-
I tend to agree, the Javelin needs something to make it more viable, easier firing (now that it's not a revolving tethering of doomation) as in more speed to the projectile, could we one. If it became that Hull-shattering blow, followed by ex. a Mortar up close, it could make some interesting builds.
-
I personally think all the piercing weapons right now are too easy. The gatling has such little spread and such a high fire rate that they can't even get close to fixing through one. The field gun is probably the easiest projectile in the game to hit with. I would love to see a little variety.
-
Balance concerns and questions for guns?
One word: Artemis (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,649.msg14018.html#msg14018)
-
Balance concerns and questions for guns?
One word: Artemis (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,649.msg14018.html#msg14018)
Yup, I know.
-
Balance concerns and questions for guns?
One word: Artemis (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,649.msg14018.html#msg14018)
Yup, I know.
Just wanted to put it out there :D
-
I think an adjustment to the AoE would keep the Artemis viable, but keep a shop from disabling another ship with a single Compton drive-by.
-
Compton drive-by.
W.O.W.
-
Also, in regards to Piercing:
There are a few things that make this hard to balance:
- To kill, you must reduce hull armor. Piercing is the only solution. This is obvious.
- Piercing controls the length of an encounter (time to kill) and therefore the speed of a match
- Because Piercing is so essential, it is difficult to pair with other damage types without being high DPS vs. armor and high DPS vs. hull (therefore OP)
The only thing I can think of right now that doesn't literally make me hurl myself off a building is piercing and fire.
That would be hilarious.
-
On an unrelated note regarding gun balance:
I think the flamethrower and rocket carousel feel a bit wimpy these days. Both weapons had their 15 minutes of fame as feared weapons on the battlefield but were nerfed out of the meta.
For me there are two ways they could be beefed up a bit:
1) By directly by increasing total dps. I don't think the carousel was really op in 1.14 except for the massive aoe and I think returning some of it's other attributes like rate of fire and reload would make it more viable. Increasing the per particle damage of the flamethrower would definitely make it more attractive to players.
2) Reducing the stacks of fire needed to kick someone off a gun. Yes I remember what fire used to be like, and though I didn't really have a problem with it then I understand peoples concerns regarding its affects on fun factor for new players. That being said, I have never seen a level 8 fire on a gun since 1.14, so, maybe that much fire stack for a gun ejection is a bit high.
-
Oh and though I know it's already being worked on, have to mention the harpoon.
More force on the tow line please. That, and a little more piercing would be nice as well.
-
2) Reducing the stacks of fire needed to kick someone off a gun.
Will probably happen, you're right on this one.
Oh and though I know it's already being worked on, have to mention the harpoon.
It's not very high on the priority list, unfortunately. It'll need several day of Jay's time, which I think is occupied by tutorial related stuff right now. It's a shame, I know. I want this to get re-prioritized soon.
-
True story about the carousel. Maybe make it piercing/explosive? Before you rabble, keep in mind only one damage type at a time would be effective. The carousel is as accurate as Michael J Fox with a Derringer, which further balances the combo. It's a nice new type of versatility. Rather than having a secondary damage type that lets you do two things at once, it makes it moderately effective over a wide range for ships that don't have the easy trifectas.
-
That being said, I have never seen a level 8 fire on a gun since 1.14, so, maybe that much fire stack for a gun ejection is a bit high.
No kidding. I've only been playing for a bit over a month and I didn't even know that was a thing at all.
-
2) Reducing the stacks of fire needed to kick someone off a gun. Yes I remember what fire used to be like, and though I didn't really have a problem with it then I understand peoples concerns regarding its affects on fun factor for new players. That being said, I have never seen a level 8 fire on a gun since 1.14, so, maybe that much fire stack for a gun ejection is a bit high.
Level 8 fires are the norm if you're using a flamethrower. You don't see level 8 fires because no one uses flamethrowers. I liked how flamethrowers worked last patch, they weren't primary weapons but their large arc made them excellent defensive and trifecta weapons. If their damage is increased somewhat on top of the artemis nerf (artemis can do everything the flamethrower does except pop the balloon and faster) then lowering the number of fire stacks required to disable a gun shouldn't be necessary.
-
Is it possible to AOE damage a hostile with an indirect hit? For example, if I shoot a lumber jack at a wall next to where a squid is flying and it explodes against the wall close enough to envelope part of the squid in AOE radius, will the squid take the damage? I think this has happened a few times in the past, but I am not sure if it was a hit on the squid that looked like a miss or if the wall took the hit and the AOE still reached the target.
-
It is absolutely possible. The scales involved just make it sort of unlikely.
-
It is absolutely possible. The scales involved just make it sort of unlikely.
When my teammate is being a bastard and blocking shots, I Artemis his ship if he's entangled with our opponent. Pretty easy disables. Worked like a charm last night.Level 8 fires are the norm if you're using a flamethrower. You don't see level 8 fires because no one uses flamethrowers.
I disagree. I tested this specifically by hanging out in an opponent's flame range to see if I could disable it before he set my stuff on fire. My gunner had disconnected, and we sat in it for a good two clips from the flamethrower. The highest I saw was a 9-level on the balloon, and that's after stationary firing for two clips, which means you need about 20s of sustained fire to get a flame-disable.
-
I disagree. I tested this specifically by hanging out in an opponent's flame range to see if I could disable it before he set my stuff on fire. My gunner had disconnected, and we sat in it for a good two clips from the flamethrower. The highest I saw was a 9-level on the balloon, and that's after stationary firing for two clips, which means you need about 20s of sustained fire to get a flame-disable.
The point of a flamethrower isn't to get quick disables, though. The idea is that you're hovering somewhere above your enemy or are otherwise parked in their blindspot, which is pretty easy to do against Galleons, Pyramidions, and formerly the Junker, raining down a single gun that disables the entire ship at once while taking out the balloon and seriously threatening the hull, hopefully overwhelming the engineers should they have been unlucky enough to not bring chemspray. I don't know about you, but last patch it was pretty easy to get at least a full clip of flamethrower into an enemy as the gun has a very arc, it doesn't need a primary slot to function and it doesn't need a very long burst to force the enemy to either start wandering away from the hull or balloon or start sacrificing components.
Now, in my experience those level 8 fires will come up a LOT faster than what you're describing, my guess is someone on your ship had chemspray and you told your crew you were going into their fire. 20 seconds is more than enough time for components to start breaking under a flamethrower, I have no idea how your balloon managed to survive that long with an apparently slowly building level 9 fire when lower level fires will outstrip an engineer's ability to repair. Was that other ship ONLY firing a single flamethrower at you and not giving you anything else to worry about? If the ONLY thing you have to worry about is a single light gun (that isn't an Artemis) a ship full of engineers will generally be able to outrepair it.
You don't need a level 8 fire to disable a gun. A level 4 fire is more than enough to give pretty severe damage and turning penalties even on light guns, a level 1 fire will screw up Hwacha volleys almost to the point of uselessness. That's damage that happens immediately after a gunner repairs. Chemspray or heatsink will provide a hard counter certainly, but if all you have is a regular extinguisher you're still going to have to deal with your gun never being at 100% and dealing full damage. This is without aiming for your gun in particular, the engines and balloon and hull are taking fire too.
I made a LOT of use of the flamethrower last patch and the only reason I don't use it now is because the Artemis sacrifices the balloon killing ability (balloons are extra weak to fire) to be able to disable everything on a ship at long range without the need for another gun to force the ship to let some fires burn.
-
Wait how is the harpoon working properly?
Situation: I'm in a Pyrimidion going full tilt forward. My gunner snags the drive by harpoon then I turn on kerosene, the squid that is harpooned starts turning toward me.... then my pyrimidion loses all forward momentum and is impossible to turn in either direction.... don't seem right to me. I've seen this done by really drunk people and bungee cords. The fat guy wins when they're both running away from eachother, period.
It really seems like the mass and speed isn't working properly.
-
What's that I've been hearing about Lumberjack projectile speed change?
-
What's that I've been hearing about Lumberjack projectile speed change?
While nothing has been noted officially and I've yet really to see anything official about it;- I can definitely vouch that the lumberjack has seen a change in it's projectile speed - maybe by mistake when altering the Artemis; who knows.
I spent way too many hours to be considered healthy firing the lumberjack and when 1.2 hits I started missing 5+ entire clips in a row on medium ranged ships where normally I'd hit 80% per clip on average; and even half my clips at 1.5-2 grids away on the map.
After spending some time with my boyfriend to fiddle around in sandbox we concluded that I had to completely relearn the sights and adjust everything I knew about the distances to a new angle;- which I peed me off a little bit
It seems the projective is just a lot faster now with a reduced arc;- and I don't really like it at all. Either way I can 100% garauntee straight up that something has changed; because all my previous documentation on the sight vs distance is now worthless and will make me miss everything.
Aqua did ask Bubbles what exactly was changed and the answer to that was "Nothing, might have had projectile speed changed when redoing artemis" or something along those lines and when he mentioned I'd been missing everything because of it he thought it was humorous more than anything and brushed it off with, "she'll just have to aim a little lower" which just annoyed me even more - if something changes in balance about a weapon I kinda want to read it officially in notes and maybe even understand the reason for it; not be made to be an idiot
-
I can confirm that the Lumberjack's configured muzzle speed has not changed. It's possible you've found a bug, though I'm at a loss as to how it would affect only that gun.
-
You might want to get a direct quote from me next time. For the actual changes to projectile speed if any, I'll have Eric confirm, which is what I stated before. It's unfortunate to see how self-deprecating humor on what I don't know morphing into this. I will be more careful in friendly banters so things don't get misconstrued next time. I did say that if the projectile speed increases, you will have to aim a little lower, and that is the case. I haven't heard complaints about the lumberjack, or its change being drastic from other players, but then again, despite my efforts, I can't keep up with every forum post in addition to all the other communication channels that I pour over. But if the ballistics of the lumberjack went through a drastic change, and this fact is not known, we will correct the oversight on our part.
Thanks,
-
Due to my laziness I did not read the rest of this thread, but I wanted to put my thoughts on the Artemis on here. I was just looking at the gun chart on the website and was surprised to see that the Explosive damage had been bumped up to 60 (from 20) and that the AOE had been bumped up to 5 (from 3 I believe). The Artemis before this patch was a very good gun, it just didn't have something special that made it amazing. You guys added it this patch, but went overboard with the stats. The new turn radius is amazing, I love it! But honestly, the extra explosive damage and AOE is kinda over doing it. Perhaps giving an extra second to the reload will help as well. I am sure this has been discussed thoroughly but I wanted to add my voice in to make sure the turn radius isn't changed.
-
I can confirm that the Lumberjack's configured muzzle speed has not changed. It's possible you've found a bug, though I'm at a loss as to how it would affect only that gun.
http://gunsoficarus.com/community/blog/1-1-4-balance-hot-fix/
This was the last change to the Lumberjack.
Due to my laziness I did not read the rest of this thread, but I wanted to put my thoughts on the Artemis on here. I was just looking at the gun chart on the website and was surprised to see that the Explosive damage had been bumped up to 60 (from 20) and that the AOE had been bumped up to 5 (from 3 I believe). The Artemis before this patch was a very good gun, it just didn't have something special that made it amazing. You guys added it this patch, but went overboard with the stats. The new turn radius is amazing, I love it! But honestly, the extra explosive damage and AOE is kinda over doing it. Perhaps giving an extra second to the reload will help as well. I am sure this has been discussed thoroughly but I wanted to add my voice in to make sure the turn radius isn't changed.
I'm almost certain the Artemis' Explosive damage was always 60, and never as low as 20. The AoE has also always been that good; the only recent changes were small, mostly meaningless buffs to its turn speed and arc, as well as a buff to its projectile speed making it easier to land. Buffs, no matter how slight, will always get people experimenting, and making it easier to use will make more people use it. Hence, we get the Artemis to be a common weapon.
The biggest thing I want to re-iterate is that the Artemis is a long range disabling weapon. In order to fill that role, it does not need a good turning arc or speed. That's why those should be nerfed, because it gives usefulness it doesn't deserve. This is why the Field Gun's damage output was never nerfed much, and instead got its turning arc nerfed heavily; to push it into the role it should've been in, and to make sure it could still fill that role. The Artemis does need an AoE reduction, I feel, but other than that its utility should be nerfed before its primary role is.
-
Actually prepatch rotational speed of Artemis was just fine imo. It was a great weapon even before. It could even defeat Polaris on their dual spire build (since it only hav 1 main and 1 light fron weapon) with Pyra fron Merc/Artemiss build.
-
-Artemis
--Decreased upward pitch angle (-35 to -10 degrees, skewed towards downwards aiming)
--Decreased rotation speeds (100 to 80 pitch, 120 to 30 yaw)
--Decreased zoom (3.5 to 2x)
--Slightly decreased muzzle speed (750 to 675m/s)
--Slightly decreased rate of fire (0.67 bullets per second to 0.625)
--Slightly decreased AoE (5 to 3.5m)
--Slightly decreased reload speed (5 to 7s)
-Light Carronade
--Changed pitch angles (-40 to 35 changed to -30 to 10, skewed towards upwards aiming)
-Heavy Carronade
--Changed pitch angles (-20 to 35 changed to -30 to 10, skewed towards upwards aiming)
-
Alright I guess I will stick my head out here. First, I must say that I do not envy your job at this moment as no matter what the people will complain. Also I appreciate the back and forth between the community and the developers, something that is so amazing and fantastic that I am sue it is a leading factor in the frankly gross amount of hours I have already put in since February. That being said...
I feel this hot fix goes a bit too far in nerfing the artemis to the point where the role of the gun seems murky. The slower turn speed means it can't really be used for trifectas. The slower speed has really hurt its range ability (the rocket explodes at a shorter range due the slower speed). So basically the gun is useless in a quick combat situation and ineffective in a long range gruelfest.
The artemis has always been my gun. Basically the after the first week of piloting my junker I began using it exclusively as my front gun and it always served me well, and in the last weeks, served me too well. This afternoon I had to retire a gun I had been using for about two months and am at a bit of a loss for a replacement.
I am sorry if this turns out premature or whiney, but honestly this hot fix really destroyed something I loved in this game, a unique bit of ship lost in a world of gat flaks.
-
Wow so it's getting a massive nerf instead of just a little one..... sigh. you change a couple things to bring it to the forefront and now slam just about every value the gun has? I don't get that thinking.
This is the exact thing I was worried about! the SOE or EA style "balance hammer of doom."
-
Hey guys, while the across the board value adjustment sounds intimidating, let's give it a shot first. It'll definitely take more skills to use in my opinion, but as we were testing today, it's still a pretty darn effective gun in my opinion. Let's give it a bit of time and play, and we'll see if we need to make further adjustments.
Thanks a lot! Happy Weekend! Howard
-
As far as I could tell, it wasn't a hammer of doom per se, but gat/flak is definitely the prevailing medium weapon combo once again.
-
From what my gunners did with the Artemis after the change it became clear they needed to step up their game and think about using different kinds of ammo for different situations, which is what having a gunner over a gungineer is all about.
I was seeing the Artemis used effectively with a gunner who knew what ammo to have for different ranges or situations. I really want to hammer this home, the changes seem to target that gungineer mentality we've seen keep cropping it's ugly head up into the casual game space.
Course I'm also an extremist in the gun balancing camp, Nerf them all to hell and make it so gunners ammo diversity is your only sure way to get a kill.
-
Bubbles, I think the point is Phoebe, being one of the best Lumber Jackers in the game, became every frustrated with the new update for there was not mention of changes that could effect the Lumber Jack. I was there when she was missing all of her shots, shots that were very easy for her before. She had spent many, many hours perfecting her skills at Lumber Jack, only to have the rug pulled out from under her, as the cliche goes. Now wether that was intentional or not is another story. Wether the Lumber Jack was changed or not, something was changed, and we had a hard time figuring out why.
Sometimes in text things can get misconstrued. Wether you were laughing at her, or yourself can be misinterpreted either way. I frankly did not know either way. If that was the case that you were laughing at yourself, maybe we can just post this up to another misunderstanding due to text chat.
After saying what you did, we did go to the sandbox, and were able to pretty much figure it out. Before that though, we kept being told that nothing was changed on the Lumber Jack. We knew something was wrong, and both of us were frustrated. I understand some things are going to be changed for better or for worse, but it is frustrating not knowing why, or not even know it was changed.
I just hope you can understand that Bubbles that for serious competitive players this can be blind curve and very frustrating, even if it is for the better. Sometimes things can be said out of anger, because of that frustration. :)
-
Ofiach posted his concerns in length about the artemis nerf in another thread, and I feel it's good for this discussion to show that and my reply in the artemis' favor following it.
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,649.msg15127.html#msg15127
-
Before that though, we kept being told that nothing was changed on the Lumber Jack. We knew something was wrong, and both of us were frustrated. I understand some things are going to be changed for better or for worse, but it is frustrating not knowing why, or not even know it was changed.
I probably shouldn't be wading into... *This*. But Moriarty, Morblitz and myself have spent a ton of time with lumberjacks since the labyrinth patch, and we don't think it's changed at all...
-
Hey Aquamac,
As it turned out, there is no changes to lumberjack, and I did not give an affirmative.
In any case, if this is the approach that you are taking with my communications, then I'm sorry, I will not be able to be as accommodating in catering to your requests and favors as I was before.
From now on, if you have any issues or feedback, please go through the regular channels, whether that is posting on the forums or email to feedback@musegames.com.
We will of course look at your requests or issues and answer them as soon as possible. However, I need to be more selective and careful in my personal communications going forward, so that it does not lead to this type of responses and back and forth in the forum.
Have a great weekend everyone! Best, Howard
-
You might want to get a direct quote from me next time. For the actual changes to projectile speed if any, I'll have Eric confirm, which is what I stated before. It's unfortunate to see how self-deprecating humor on what I don't know morphing into this. I will be more careful in friendly banters so things don't get misconstrued next time. I did say that if the projectile speed increases, you will have to aim a little lower, and that is the case. I haven't heard complaints about the lumberjack, or its change being drastic from other players, but then again, despite my efforts, I can't keep up with every forum post in addition to all the other communication channels that I pour over. But if the ballistics of the lumberjack went through a drastic change, and this fact is not known, we will correct the oversight on our part.
Thanks,
I did see "direct" quotes - just not "directly" from you - but you know me and aqua are together; so you knew I was gonna see the conversation, it doesn't matter to me either way
As for referring to banter and being more careful with what you say - that just goes without saying I think in your position;- in one hand I think it's great that the people at muse are so close to their players but in the other - purely from a PR perspective - you should always be careful what you say and how you say it;- I've had a bit of a short fuse lately with you which has it's reasons and I do apologize; but you do make it easy to get annoyed at you sometimes. We can talk it over some other time.
Topic at hand : The Lumberjack - I am still 100% confident something has changed;- I've been aiming the same variables for weeks after I worked them all out and always aimed the exact same responding to distances on the map;- but literally dead-on when 1,2 hits these values seemed to have changed and I now finally worked out the new aiming angles which are at least 2mm difference on the monitor off;- which for a weapon of this caliber is the difference between missing everything and hitting everything at every range past 500m.
That's my feedback on it;- I know something has changed - and the same goes here as with the lag/networking issue : you might not have changed something;- but something is definitely up. I hope you guys can work it out and find out what the problem is - I just cannot accept that I am crazy, seeing ghosts - and should deal with assuming I am wrong in this;- so I have my fingers crossed that the issue will be identified.
Just in closing - you mentioned you can't keep up with forum posts;- but I felt this subject belonged on the topic it was created for which is "Guns balance questions and concerns v1.2" posted by Eric himself - so I don't think I took it to the wrong channel. You have my feedback/experience now regarding this gun;- the feedback is probably going to stay minimal from other sources because no one really fired the gun as extensive as I did and it already is a very hard to figure out gun; but hopefully others can also confirm the change of feel
-
Phoebe which maps have you tried this on?
-
Phoebe which maps have you tried this on?
Define "this" - because I play everything and don't specifically "try" anything on a specific map, I take everything I do to maps that come up in the vote regardless.
I redid all values for the lumberjack and I hit entire clips again right off the bat beyond 1250m; but that's not the point; the point is that I'm now using different values and numbers before the 1.2 patch - I had to learn the entire guns details twice; that should not happen - so that's the whole issue here;- I'm trying to tell them something has changed, and if they don't know what the problem could be because they say nothing has changed then I'd consider that an even bigger problem because that means essentialy they are breaking things accidentally. A developer would hopefully show some kind of interest in such feedback
-
No, I mean, you said
"I've been aiming the same variables for weeks after I worked them all out and always aimed the exact same responding to distances on the map;"
Which maps have you tried it on?
-
I still don't get what you mean;- they are not variables that you bring to every map, they change depending; each map was learned independantly
-
Like I said, if you feel like there is an issue, you're welcome to report it to feedback@musegames.com.
I'll continue to be as open as I can to people. However, I will evaluate it on a case by case basis.
-
Yes I feel there is an issue; it's right here in Eric's official topic where he asked for that feedback, press the back button
-
Squash is asking you the map so he can try to replicate your issue. Hard to replicate an issue you have if you just avoid questions. Id like to try as well.
-
Dramaaaa
Phoebe, being one of the best Lumber Jackers in the game
lOl
I categorically state - it's the same old lumberjack.
-
Depends how broadly you define that, but she is/was awesome at thet job.
--As for lumberjcack I have no idea, since I've allways been terrible with it.
On the topic of rottational/amgular speed: I think the projectile still inherrit the ship's angular speed.
-
Honestly, I haven't noticed a difference in the lumberjack. It shoots fine to me.
The only issue I have encountered though is the ammo bug that I've talked about in the bug forum. It occurs when you switch ammo to, for example, lesmok, but whilst the game tells you lesmok is loaded, it actually isn't. So you'll think you're firing lesmok but it's actually default rounds, OR whatever the previous ammo loaded into the gun was. It happens to me with annoying regularity, so it's entirely possible that this is contributing to your problems.
-
This sort of removes the point of a Carronade.
-Light Carronade
--Changed pitch angles (-40 to 35 changed to -30 to 10, skewed towards upwards aiming)
-Heavy Carronade
--Changed pitch angles (-20 to 35 changed to -30 to 10, skewed towards upwards aiming)
-
This sort of removes the point of a Carronade.
-Light Carronade
--Changed pitch angles (-40 to 35 changed to -30 to 10, skewed towards upwards aiming)
-Heavy Carronade
--Changed pitch angles (-20 to 35 changed to -30 to 10, skewed towards upwards aiming)
Not at all. It just means the pilot has to maintain a closer altitude to the target, rather than lazily hovering above and relying on the turning arc to carry the build.
-
Honestly, I haven't noticed a difference in the lumberjack. It shoots fine to me.
The only issue I have encountered though is the ammo bug that I've talked about in the bug forum. It occurs when you switch ammo to, for example, lesmok, but whilst the game tells you lesmok is loaded, it actually isn't. So you'll think you're firing lesmok but it's actually default rounds, OR whatever the previous ammo loaded into the gun was. It happens to me with annoying regularity, so it's entirely possible that this is contributing to your problems.
No, that indeed is a different problem I already pointed out on patch day itself
-
This sort of removes the point of a Carronade.
-Light Carronade
--Changed pitch angles (-40 to 35 changed to -30 to 10, skewed towards upwards aiming)
-Heavy Carronade
--Changed pitch angles (-20 to 35 changed to -30 to 10, skewed towards upwards aiming)
Not at all. It just means the pilot has to maintain a closer altitude to the target, rather than lazily hovering above and relying on the turning arc to carry the build.
A much 'closer altitude', aka the same altitude because gun can not point down at all. At which point might as well use gat + flak or hwacha/anything else because popping a balloon is no where near as effective as direct damage or disabling most of the time.
-
This sort of removes the point of a Carronade.
-Light Carronade
--Changed pitch angles (-40 to 35 changed to -30 to 10, skewed towards upwards aiming)
-Heavy Carronade
--Changed pitch angles (-20 to 35 changed to -30 to 10, skewed towards upwards aiming)
Not at all. It just means the pilot has to maintain a closer altitude to the target, rather than lazily hovering above and relying on the turning arc to carry the build.
A much 'closer altitude', aka the same altitude because gun can not point down at all. At which point might as well use gat + flak or hwacha/anything else because popping a balloon is no where near as effective as direct damage or disabling most of the time.
I believe this change is so it forces ships to be in combat vision of the ship they're fighting and give the opponent somewhat of a chance to fight back if it's being balloon locked. Currently the carronade mechanic is dull and uninteresting and very annoying to the opponent because you can happily hover above their ship doing damage they cannot defend against.
Balloon locking, as effective as it may have been; has always been a really uninteresting mechanic - and giving the enemy at least an oppurtunity to fight back during their struggle to escape is most likely the entire reasoning behind the pitch changes. If you feel you might as well use a gat-flak then;- that's entirely your decision
-
I have to be honest, I am completely baffled as to why they nerfed the carronade.
I don't know anyone who thought it was op since there were so many methods to get out of a balloon lock (drogue chute, balloon buff, multiple engis on the balloon, hydrogen, kerosene your teammate all the above etc) and there where many builds that I thought were superior however it was still viable.
Furthermore this really limits the use of some of the lesser used ships like Spires, Squids and Goldfish since some of their most viable (and fun) builds relied on carronade usage.
The whole point in my mind of a carronade was to control the altitude of a fight in order to stay out of the gun arcs of your opponents, not necessarily to kill them, but to keep them from killing you and your teammates; now I just don't get it.
I can't imagine how frustrating it is for Eric to work as hard as he does balancing the game only to have the community complain about everything he does and I'm sure there was a really positive and constructive reason for the change. I also know it's not Eric's method to explain balance changes, so I'll probably never understand the change. I'm just totally befuddled, and you know, longing for my old carronades.
-
I think it's kind of like the old fire, it wasn't exactly dominating cogs matches, but it was sure a new-player-killer like nothing else, and it made the game less fun for them.
-
I'm assuming that might have been the reason as well but new players learn quickly. I remember being balloon locked when I was new and figuring out how to get out of it.
The game should be balanced for the average player, with an eye toward competitive play, not the brand new player, since sooner than later, they'll be an average player anyways.
-
I have found a very overpowered combination. If you are using the Manticore Heavy Hwacha along with Burst Rounds, you can take out multiple stations all in one fell swoop, and i mean MULTIPLE. Like, if you are using the goldfish, every station pretty much. I have tested it in multiple games and had it tested against me, and each time, the whole ship pretty much goes up in flames. I dont know if it is intentional, but jesus, it just seems broken.
-
That' the Hwacha's job, but it can't kill anything without help from a small gun or your ally.
-
What I don't get from the carronade nerf (cause we needed one I guess?) is it just seems backwards. Why would I want an upward arc? Then the Hull is shielding the balloon and i'm pretty much being worthless. Then you have to remain level to keep the balloon locked, which kills a blenderfish as it only has that one front gun trying to lock it, and nothing to disable the inevitable gunfire from the enemy.
As Smollett has said, I didn't see a need to nerf it at all. And if anything, the change seems backwards. It needs a downward arc to be useful.
-
I'm going to crosspost and refine my arguments from the Artemis thread if you all don't mind.
A carronade is a weapon that's stuck in an odd design niche; it needs to- practically by definition- be able to keep an enemy ship's balloon disabled even through repair attempts and ultimately does seek to kill the enemy ship by running it into the ground. it was problematic for the same reason that the Artemis was pre-nerf and the Mercury was pre-spillover-fix; You don't want to be able to have a kill-strategy that wins with minimal chance for interaction by the enemy ship. Its use in forcing disengagements was a an emergent use based on its ability to put the opponent out of a range where they can counterattack.
Not to say that it has only that use or that it should have only that use, mind, but that bit of definition needs to be taken into account. Even if you were using it primarly as a support weapon to force a ship out of engagement, it was still- if used as a dedicated offense- able to deny them the ability to engage until they broke on the proverbial rocks.
And Smollett- I love you right back, but most of the solutions you've offered are either means to delay the inevitable (Drogue chute only slows your descent and will not bring you level with your opponent and well-timed shots based around the rebuilds will hamstring your engineers' work) or simply nonsolutions (Hydrogen on a freshly-repaired balloon is a good way to give your enemy a leg up in breaking it and good luck getting the buff going in time)- using Kerosene to rush away/to a teammate is probably the best solution you've given and is certainly the most reliable one in actual combat, but it also potentially means that when you re-engage you're just going to start the cycle over and possibly end up in the same situation- not to mention it relies on your opponent not having a means to bridge the gap. I'd personally toss in "dive under the opponent's ship to shake their lock" as an option but even that one relies on the opposing captain not being able to see it coming/respond quickly- and, if they know what they're doing, it's a fairly easy maneuver to counter.
Let me clarify- I don't think the carronade is a "broken" strategy, and certainly not an overpowered one. But I do think that- due to the issues I'd discussed above- it's problematic, because it can severely reduce the level of interactivity between ships/players that makes GoI stand out so much in the first place. Making the carronade more interactive with the opponent in its use is hardly the worst way to approach the problem, even if it is- as you've all observed, especially regarding the ships that rely on the disabling tactic and the hit arc favoring the hull over the balloon- an incomplete solution. But the fact that it even offers a means of approach to the interactivity issue also means that it opens up new ways the weapon can be tweaked, balanced, and enhanced.
-
Carrorade was a reat weapon but not an overpowered one (especcaily if you saw it comming). It required your full time commitment to an enemy, otherwise it was completely useless. During that time you were butt naked against his ally that should have been punding you from exposed behind.
-
Even after the carronade angle nerf the weapon remains a viable galleon/spire killer. The balloons on those ships are so high above the main gun deck that a squid or goldfish can park in the pocket level to the balloon but above the fire arc of non lumberjack medium guns and go to town. It is extreamly difficult to get in position and stay there, but it is possible. I see the nerf as a piloting challenge. I don't particularly like it since in a game of Vets the carronade primary weapon is very rarely a viable strategy, but I can see how newbies would get sick of getting stuffed into the ground with no way of retaliating.
-
It's like the fire nerf to me. I didn't really see a need to nerf it, so the fact it had been was kind of confusing to me. I'll even go so far to say that fire was more of an issue than carronades seemed to be. The trick was always first have a lot of altitude to begin with, and to get under the boat trying to lock you down.
Of course, in something like a galleon, that's nigh impossible, but an unsupported Galleon is like sending a battleship in to fight a squadron of torpedo bombers alone. You coordinate and get past it. The range of the carronade alone is debilitating enough i thought, when compared to even a hwacha.
I realize its now a pilot's challenge, but I'm obviously missing why it needed to be made harder in the first place.
-
I listened to this talk on good game design. One of the things that stuck with me is that in a multiplayer game like this an ability/mechanic has to be both fun to use and fun to be used on. In the case of the carronade it is fun to use because you can take an opponent out of the fight, but it is not fun to have used on you since there is no way to retaliate once the enemy ship is in position (calling for help doesn't count). Now that the carronade requires the attacking ship to be almost level with the balloon it is possible for the defending ship to ram the attacking ship by suddenly changing direction. Thus the mechanic becomes similar to bull riding where the squid (cowboy) tries to stay in position and the galleon (bull) tries to shake them off. Hopefully fun will be had by all.
Either that or I am trying to rationalize a stupid decision made by devs who are drunk off their own power.
-
It's like the fire nerf to me. I didn't really see a need to nerf it, so the fact it had been was kind of confusing to me.
That's actually a very apt analogy, because I feel like they were both changed for the same reason: to add more design space. (This is just my postulation, I obviously can't speak for Awkm here)
The carronade was always balanced on a razor's edge because there are two important factors to consider:
A. It needs to be able to keep a ship's balloon suppressed even against repair efforts, and drive a ship into the ground under its own power. If it doesn't, it's of no use as a weapon.
B. It needs to be able to give the opponent a reasonable chance at counterattacking or otherwise recovering. If it doesn't, it's a game-breaking weapon.
Between them, there isn't a lot of 'wiggle room' to balance the carronade. Previously, one could consider making it weaker, but then you risk botching point A; and every point of damage you add to it complicates issue B exponentially. But, since it presently can't point downward to pop an enemy ship's balloon while remaining out of range of any sort of counterattack, Issue B is now far less of a factor. And consequentially this opens up a lot more room to work with the carronade as a weapon. Not only does it make it so that its use has higher risk, but it means that it can also be given higher reward. Heck, now that engagement against a carronade-ship is more of a direct option, this means it could actually be made stronger and faster in doing what it does- do you think we, as a playerbase have ever even considered that as a reasonable possibility before?
Similarly, the changes to the way fire worked did more than just reel back the damage and effectiveness of flamethrowers; they made it so that fire had more factors involved in how it would impact a battle. And with each of those factors comes another way to make it work in a way conducive to good gameplay and good game balance.
And, like I'd said before, I consider both the changes to be incomplete solutions; but thanks to the fact that they're there, we can now look at fire and say, for example, "hmm, what if the amount of stacks to disabling a gun was raised/lowered/dependent on the weight class of the weapon"- something that would have been impossible if it had the binary effectiveness it had before- or look at a carronade and say "What if it popped balloons faster and forced enemies to disengage quicker/did more shatter damage to help slow down counterattacks/had a wider arc to make flybys more of a possibility and still give the enemy a chance to retaliate"- something that wouldn't have just been ridiculous if you were still able to fire it at a ship from high up and practically out of range.
The important thing about both changes is that they've opened up these possibilities, and brought about new ways to improve the game.
-
I see where you are trying to go with it, but something doesn't sit right with your analysis. You're basically telling me they have left me with a half-baked idea in my lap to use, which I wouldn't want to believe. Sure it open up more possibilities, like more shatter to break the guns that can now easily find you as you try taking them out, but then why wasn't that added along with the patch?
The risk with a carronade was never low. At least not for me. It takes a lot of positioning and sometimes brute force to get yourself in range to even start being effective. Then you have to maintain that position, a lot of times with their ally giving you funny looks with their guns.
God forbid you add more damage to a carronade's ability to pop balloons. It takes 2-3 shots currently. That would mean closer to 1-2, which is a clip size. Then its raycast, so missing isn't typical. The only thing I couls see adding to it is more shatter, which is dangerous because then you just clip their engines and lock them that way, which is stomping on hwacha's territory. You're left with its balloon killing power, and armor stripping to a lesser degree. Well killing the balloon happens fast enough, its just the arc that will kill you because you won't kill them fast enough. They will ignore the fact the balloon is gone and hit you till you have to bail. So that leaves the armor shredding. Up the armor modifier and then you go in for a ram kill? Maybe, but you will probably get more OP calls from that vs the way it was previous to the arc nerf. It's a possibility though, but I'd like to think they would of added that along with the arc nerf if that's what they really wanted. Not leave it halfway.
I get where you are trying to go with this, but I can't wrap my head around them patching it half way to see what happens. It comes off as a nerf.
-
If you know Zil, he's not only considered heavy carrorade for dealing bamage, but have allready used it for Stripping Armors. The infamous blender galleon for example - it was a hell repairing armor on pyra when being blasted by 2 of them.
-
If carronade is to be primarily used for armor stripping then that just means it is another 'gat+flak' combo reducing the number of viable mechanics.
Even after the carronade angle nerf the weapon remains a viable galleon/spire killer. The balloons on those ships are so high above the main gun deck that a squid or goldfish can park in the pocket level to the balloon but above the fire arc of non lumberjack medium guns and go to town. It is extreamly difficult to get in position and stay there, but it is possible. I see the nerf as a piloting challenge. I don't particularly like it since in a game of Vets the carronade primary weapon is very rarely a viable strategy, but I can see how newbies would get sick of getting stuffed into the ground with no way of retaliating.
Actually if you have a gat on the top deck of the spire you can still hit whatever is hitting your balloon. I'll have to test out a blender fish on a galleon but I don't expect anything that great from it.
-
I get where you are trying to go with this, but I can't wrap my head around them patching it half way to see what happens. It comes off as a nerf.
I never said it wasn't a nerf. Really, it's a nerf by any other name; just one that- I think- opens the floor for future improvements in the process.
-
I get where you are trying to go with this, but I can't wrap my head around them patching it half way to see what happens. It comes off as a nerf.
I never said it wasn't a nerf. Really, it's a nerf by any other name; just one that- I think- opens the floor for future improvements in the process.
It's a nerf that makes way for future buffs. How it should be buffed, exactly, must still be determined.
I like the change to carronades. It's definitely a step in the right direction. I'm not sure how else it can be buffed, though, other than possibly tightening the spread or something.
-
I don't know what the official word was but maybe the lumberjack is firing differently because of the new ship physics. Changing a shooting platforms movement will change the way anything fired from it feels.
@ Phoebe Imagine shooting a rifle standing still and getting all the ranges and sight marks etc. Now imagine shooting it from a moving boat, your aim is going to be off and you have to relearn the ranges and sight marks. The rifle is still against your shoulder and you're looking down the sight but you're moving differently. (crude analogy but it seemed the easiest to write down)
That's what I'm thinking happened anyway.
-
I'm on holiday so here are my quick responses:
Artemis AoE, Projectile Speed, and Zoom Changes:
- Previously overshadowed the Field Gun
- It was obviously OP
I'm glad people notice this gun now and are talking about it regardless if they think its nerfed or not. I've been trying to get it back into play since it was homing lol.
(http://www.spikesnstars.com/docs/wp-content/uploads/HatersGonnaHate.jpg)
Artemis and Carronade Angle Changes:
- Ship movement to telegraph tactics aka Streetfighter. This is an experiment of mine and since no one really touched on it yet, I'm telling you now. Let me know what you think.
- I don't want to change Hydrogen. Unlike Streetfighter, this game is not about dodging. Positioning is king. You need to work to get constant balloon lock. And yes, it is not fun being constantly locked.
Lumberjack:
- Absolutely nothing has changed. Sure, it could be ship movement or something with angular velocity but that's all I got for you. So far, there are no bugs related to those systems and those systems have improved gameplay a great deal. Rolling back changes is unlikely (like the Artemis lol).
- If you find a bug with any of this, please let us know through feedback@musegames.com
-
Ok, awkm, that is hilarious.
I may not always agree with your ideas but at least you do them with style lol.
Enjoy your holiday, it's well deserved.
-
- I don't want to change Hydrogen. Unlike Streetfighter, this game is not about dodging. Positioning is king. You need to work to get constant balloon lock. And yes, it is not fun being constantly locked.
But I like dodging, popping helium to get over a manticore volley at medium range was what I lived for pre 1.2 patch. It was like playing chicken with bullets. Move too soon and the gunner adjusts. Move too late and you still get hit. Move at just the right time and you get away Scott free.
Speaking of the Manticore did the upward/downward limits change recently. I remember being able to sit outside of the vertical Manticore fire limits and still having shot with the light guns of my Pyramidion. It may be that I am less vertically mobile than pre 1.2, but I am far more vulnerable to Manticore galleons than I used to be.
-
I'm on holiday so here are my quick responses:
Artemis AoE, Projectile Speed, and Zoom Changes:
- Previously overshadowed the Field Gun
- It was obviously OP
I'm glad people notice this gun now and are talking about it regardless if they think its nerfed or not. I've been trying to get it back into play since it was homing lol.
Nah it's just Scrimscraw broke the game by combining Merc and Artemis togethen in the front of Pyras in 1.1.5 (followed by me) to easily take defeat double spire tactics, the like of witch the Polaris is fond of :P
-- yes I have my own set of things I won't ever shut about, and that is one of them :P
-
I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting a return to the last artemis. Just why not the artemis before, the one that was very much usable but hardly over powered. The gun was fine, then it became too fine, why not just go back to how it was. That is what I simply do not understand.
-
I do agree with Sammy on the balance issue. It might be better to return and then redo changes than to just continue to stack modification on modification. A cardinal rule of flying is that if suddenly there's smoke in the aircraft, undo what you just did.
-
People tell me how they hate the new Carronade but I think it was a wise choice. If a blenderfish knew what he was doing, there was no escaping him. Your only hope was your buddy came for you, but then it takes very little to break a balloon so you could switch in between the two and you could actually kill both of them alone with no hassle. That's why the carronade/flak pyra was so strong because you could take on multiple opponents and win much easier. You may have destroyed the untouchable strategy of hanging above your opponent and driving him into the ice, but you just created the new strategy of hanging below them (granted, it's difficult to hit the balloon). But like you said, this game isn't about realism. If it was, the carronade would be on the bottom of your ship pointing straight down.
-
I do not understand why some people keep saying that the Lumber Jack has not changed? Are you talking about after the big patch or before? Maybe the Lumber Jack itself has not changed, but something has like the velocity of the ammo. I am not a big lumber Jack expert like some people are, and even I noticed a change right away. The arc is completely different, and you need to shoot straighter now to hit someone.
Most of you have seen the stream of Phoebe on the Lumber Jack taking out a ship even if there was sliver of them showing. Why would you think she does not know what the heck she is talking about? It is pretty insulting for those that claim nothing has changed. She is not a Newbie on the Lumber Jack. I am, and I even noticed a change right away. I mean why not just take it for what it is, and trust her, and go from there? I just do not get it?
-
Aqua, while you are free to post about your thoughts on lumberjack in this thread, I ask that you take your disagreements with Bubbles to PM or through email. This is purely to maintain the topic of Gun balance. Thanks.
-
Zill, very diplomatically stated. I was going to say it very differently, glad you posted first.
-
I edited my post, and I apologize. Captain Smollet, not sure that last of your remark was needed though.
-
Does anyone else think it's changed?
-
I think the changes to ship maneuverability has caused some guns including the lumberjack to be more viable than they once were. I can no longer use a Pyramidion to dance around a galleon like I once did.
-
Once again, I have not changed anything with the lumberjack for a while now. If there is a change it most likely comes from New ship movement models as well as angular velocity inheritance for guns.
I'm on holiday so I can't check right now. It is also possible that a bug occurred during database copying from test to production servers.
In the meantime, it has been filed as a bug (which should always be done with any behavior anomalies) and will be investigated in the near future.
Take step back, deep breath, relax.
Artemis values now are very similar to what they were other than the turning arcs. I'm not thaaaaaat stupid :P
Well, you'll never know will you?
-
This has been triple checked for the last time. The Lumberjack has had no changes for several patches now.
Please redirect all speculated Lumberjack changes to another thread or better yet, COME UP WITH A REPRODUCTION CASE AND FILE IT IN A BUG REPORT. This is the best way to help us squash bugs. Telling us that there is a bug is only part of the equation. We need a way to reproduce it reliably to investigate where the bug is occurring. This means detailed descriptions of what the changes you're perceiving are.
Any Lumberjack discussion that does not have to do with balance will be deleted or moved to the appropriate topic if one has been created. There's already a thread regarding Lumberjack projectile ranges with graphs and all that. I suggest reaching out to the creator of those graphs to run tests again because from our side, the Lumberjack is behaving as expected given its values.
-
squash bugs.
Squash bugs us all.
-
So I have to ask the god awful question that will get me flamed into oblivion.
Is the lumberjack just a bit too powerful? 2 shots pop balloons and there are 4 more in the clip. I don't know the exact carryover from hitting the downed balloon to hull damage but that seems a tad.... umm...... OP. It really isn't as hard to shoot as alot of people say (especially with lesmok) and just a couple hours of practice can make you beyond deadly. I've shot the gun in maybe 5 matches and there really seems to be nothing to it as long as my captain isn't spinning circles for no reason.
The heavy flak is a much harder heavy gun to shoot and *ducks behind desk* the lumberjack seems about as hard to hit with as a hwacha.
-
So I have to ask the god awful question that will get me flamed into oblivion.
Is the lumberjack just a bit too powerful? 2 shots pop balloons and there are 4 more in the clip. I don't know the exact carryover from hitting the downed balloon to hull damage but that seems a tad.... umm...... OP. It really isn't as hard to shoot as alot of people say (especially with lesmok) and just a couple hours of practice can make you beyond deadly. I've shot the gun in maybe 5 matches and there really seems to be nothing to it as long as my captain isn't spinning circles for no reason.
The heavy flak is a much harder heavy gun to shoot and *ducks behind desk* the lumberjack seems about as hard to hit with as a hwacha.
Ive Seen it, Ive used it, Ive killed with it one of the most unbalanced weapons in the game if you have a mearly good gunner your basicly invincible. Maybe ammo cap decrease ? or a bitch of a dmg nerf because to me it seems like a weapon that makes all other weapons look kinda lame. especialy with lesmok Easy mode ..
-
Don't forget about the arming timer. As a member of a team that frequently uses this weapon I'm not going to break down the intricacies of flying against one but it's not as hard to defeat as you think.
It takes three shots to break an unrepaired balloon and 4 to break one that's being maintained. Anyone can learn to hit with the gun but it takes a high % of hits and a very accurate gunner to make it effective before it becomes completely useless.
This gun has gone through a great deal of balancing and is in in my opinion well balanced.
Just because a gun is effective doesn't mean it's op. In the past there have been a great many guns that were actually well balanced nerfed into oblivion because people complained before they took the time to step back and evaluate or learn how to counter them; these on the large happened to mostly be disabling guns (flame thrower, carousel, carronade) because they irritated newer players, the lumberjack is one of the only disabling guns remaining the still fits into the competitive meta.
I'm of the mindset of bringing more weapons and greater depth into competitive play. Guns that are obviously over powered should be brought under control, but awkm is quite good at what he does and we really don't have any of those in the game right now. If anything I'd love to see the community clamoring to buff the guns that are out of use, not nerf the weapons that are still effective.
-
Right now it's a merc field field gun. Also the arming timer is a complete joke with incendiary ammo on. You pretty much have to be in hump range before the it stops being effective.
Like I said I've used it in 5 matches and it takes alot less practice then it is made out to need. I watched some vids of the old flak and that seemed to be a tad harder to shoot than the current lumberjack and was absolutely raped by the nerfhammer.
The lumber isn't artemis post 1.2 OP but it is a bit out of line. 4 shells and keeping the reload time is a completely reasonable change, alot more reasonable than the absolute slam the heavy flak got.
-
I watched some vids of the old flak and that seemed to be a tad harder to shoot than the current lumberjack and was absolutely raped by the nerfhammer.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. As somebody who used the heavy flak a lot pre-nerf, I can attest to the fact that it was an extremely easy gun to hit with, regardless of the range. That contributed to it getting nerfed.
-
Man, you can see the videos, and you can live the videos.
Old flak was insanely awesome, it was definitely op but man was it awesome. Just one flak was more powerful than anything anybody could bring and it was far easier to shoot than the current heavy flak and consequently lumberjack as well. It could smash armor, spill over into the hull and finish off an opponent. You could one volley just about anyone with a galleon. You were extremely powerful at long range and.... even more powerful at close range!!!!!
Ahh the old Flak, people loved it, and hated it, and loved to hate it, but everyone admitted it was damn gratifying to use. Good memories.
-
I watched some vids of the old flak and that seemed to be a tad harder to shoot than the current lumberjack and was absolutely raped by the nerfhammer.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. As somebody who used the heavy flak a lot pre-nerf, I can attest to the fact that it was an extremely easy gun to hit with, regardless of the range. That contributed to it getting nerfed.
What about all of his other points?
-
I watched some vids of the old flak and that seemed to be a tad harder to shoot than the current lumberjack and was absolutely raped by the nerfhammer.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. As somebody who used the heavy flak a lot pre-nerf, I can attest to the fact that it was an extremely easy gun to hit with, regardless of the range. That contributed to it getting nerfed.
What about all of his other points?
-
Saying Lumberjack is op is almost like saying Scyla is op. The only diffirence is that people have learned how to effectively shoot Lumberjack (witch is admittedly easier), while they still use Scyla in close range becouse they cant shoot it. While it does have less damage than Light Flak per shot and it is harder to hit with, it does have NO spread (thus needs no heavy clips), significantly better rate of fire and quadruple clip size (if you hit consistently you have double DPS of the light flak).
As for merc and Heavy Flak. Merc does almost no permahull damage, and heavy flak in 1.1.2 or 1.1.3 when I joined was as easy to hit with (IF you had lesmok rounds) as it is with Mercury Fild gun right now (without lesmok), back then Heavy Flak had more damage than it does now and no arming time. (BTW merc got weaker and harder to shoot with since then as well).
-
I watched some vids of the old flak and that seemed to be a tad harder to shoot than the current lumberjack and was absolutely raped by the nerfhammer.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. As somebody who used the heavy flak a lot pre-nerf, I can attest to the fact that it was an extremely easy gun to hit with, regardless of the range. That contributed to it getting nerfed.
What about all of his other points?
What if I was only really interested in that one, and I'm leaving the others to people who will express themselves better on the matter?
-
Please don't take the lumberjack away from me :(
-
Please don't take the lumberjack away from me :(
I declare the lumberjack OP... But only in the hands of Morblitz.
I mean, seriously. You see my ship pop out 1000 metres away, and half a second later my balloon is gone. There's no escaping it. It's like a horror movie.
-
The balloon, it taunts me, all unpopped and full of air.
It must pay.
-
It's really too bad Yiski hasn't been able to show off his lumberjack skills yet. Soon.....
Letus as well is very adept at lumbering murder across the map.
On to the points. I will agree that the arming times for flak and lumberjack feel, reversed? I'd go so far to say that flak needs a slight reduction like the lumberjack got in the arming time to make it more viable. With its current damage against armor, I'm not very scared of flak at all unless its doubled up on a galleon with people who can aim it.
Beyond that though. As Smollet said, it takes 3-4 shots to pop the balloon with lumber at full health. The lumberjack's horizontal arc is a joke, so always approach them at an angle, and force the ship firing at you to turn. That in itself will throw the shots off a bit as well. Rely less on the arming time and more on the bad arc. Remember that being above it does you no good, as the upward arc on a lumberjack is insane, and you wont ever be too high for it.
Also, you forget all the bad qualities you get when using incendiary, like decreased damage and smaller clips.
If you really want to fight one at long range, well the best bet is having one of your own and shooting better. Otherwise, keep it disabled and make sure your pilot isn't charging head first. That just makes the shots so much easier.
The bigger problem here is, and don't take this wrong, but many people are hitting the point where running a gat/flak pyra and flying straight into enemies isn't going to work, and strategy starts getting required, not just something you can forget about and ram into everything for wins. And I'm not saying that to anyone personally. Calling something OP in this game is a big claim, and youll need a lot of support to really get Muse agreeing.
I dare to say the Flak needs a bit of a buff more than lumberjack needs nerfing. Even out the arming times to start. I need to use them more to see if it needs anything else. I will say that a heavy Flak shot on bare hull, resulting in a ship's demise, is a glorious thing to see.
-
I actually agree that the Flak could use a slight reduction in arming times, but like a really really small reduction.
I like the fact that you can't just go nose to nose with a Heavy Flak any more but I think the gun would benefit from an ever so slightly smaller arming time.
-
The artemis used to be a good counter to the lumberjack but then they buffed it which made them kill it.
-
I dont feel the lumber is OP, you can't run head first at one with a good gunner behind it and expect things to go well is all. It is also at its most viable on a galleon and that brings with it a lot of issues (slow turning, blah blah blah) also being a heavy gun it is a pretty good target to be shot out with a gattling, merc, etc.
Before we get anymore heavy nerf's (carronades anyone?) I would like to see some of the underused guns adjusted to make them a bit more viable. (new art, carousel, etc)
-
Any gun that requires you to use 2 ships working perfectly together to effectively counter needs to be looked at.
That is really the only point that needs to be made. The artemis was crushed for being great at disabling, the carronade was hammered for, god knows why, that didn't even require great team comms. Mediocre positioning in the hands of a gunner that had been playing for 4 hours last night absolutely crushed 2 enemy ships and they could not get out from under the gun because they were always on the ground.
I'm not saying a radical reduction in anything here either, leave almost everything the same but shave a bullet or two off the clip, if my math is right, the gun does ~600 damage a shot to a balloon. So it has a damage potential of 3k per clip. Is there a gun that even comes close to doing this much damage against such a major ship component? Simple answer is no. The merc field gun is great against hull armor but has only 2 shots. The carronade requires spitting distance.
As for trying to disable a lumberjack well that isn't a viable option against opponents who are awake. The Artemis isn't going to get the job done anymore, the only real disable would be 2 mercs cycling fire and not missing any shots. Now you have a ship that has to be completely dedicated to disabling a single gun. That really doesn't make sense to me from a balance standpoint.
I repeat there is no other gun that can cripple a ship with less than a single clip. That is really the only issue.
-
Well, it seems like we're treading over similar points here, so I think it's just best to agree to disagree. There's obviously people who think the gun is OP and people who think it is not.
But (I think) we all agree that it'd be nice to see some of the underutilized weapons get brought into the fray.
-
I think a good flamer Squid can keep flaming you and keep you locked down. Takes longer for weapons to be dissabled than before (where it was effectively instantly), but 2 flamers can still very effectively dissable all your components. It won't kill you (well not fast enough, eventually you'll die of ground I guess), but it's still a resonably good dissable. But it's upward battle (ie you need a good captain and good crew to pull ie off) but it works -well 1on1 anyways.
As for "Any gun that requires you to use 2 ships working perfectly together to effectively counter needs to be looked at." I'll just say that no weapon can kill in itself. You need to combine it with another weapon. Besides all you need to dissable a lumberjack is a merc. It take much longer to rebuild a heavy gun than it takes to rebuild a light gun.
-
I agree it would be nice to have some disabling weapons that were good at the job without being ridiculous. The Pre 1.2 artemis v the post 1.2 artemis. It seems anything that's really good at disabling at range gets whacked hard. I just don't see MUSE ever letting a disabling weapon besides the lumberjack stick around for long.
-
Before we get anymore heavy nerf's (carronades anyone?) I would like to see some of the underused guns adjusted to make them a bit more viable. (new art, carousel, etc)
Please be conscious of power creep. This is something a lot of people don't realize the importance of, but it's very, very important.
It's far better to preserve the average level of power than to just "buff old things." Because that's exactly what power creep is; the general power level creeps upwards and upwards and the game changes radically as a result, generally for the worse.
Also, I'm really baffled at how much people are panning the new Artemis. It's still great, its DPS hasn't dropped significantly and it now takes skill to use. It's not bad in any way, it's just harder to use. It's perfectly fine as a counter to the Lumberjack, and so is Mercury.
That's something else I'm confused about. The Lumberjack is really good at popping balloons at range, and... nothing else. Sure, your balloon is being popped, and you're taking flechette and shatter damage to your armor. That's pretty pitiful. It does need to be combined with other weapons to be useful, which means it's never going to be useful on a Goldfish.
-
Before we get anymore heavy nerf's (carronades anyone?) I would like to see some of the underused guns adjusted to make them a bit more viable. (new art, carousel, etc)
Please be conscious of power creep. This is something a lot of people don't realize the importance of, but it's very, very important.
It's far better to preserve the average level of power than to just "buff old things." Because that's exactly what power creep is; the general power level creeps upwards and upwards and the game changes radically as a result, generally for the worse.
I am well aware of power creep, but if we just have nerfs without other adjustments we are going to end up with a very narrow allotment of weapons which are viable (one might say we do already). Balance is understandably hard of cause.
As I was saying to Ofiach in game, the Lumberjack is dependant on Pilot, gunner, and foe, and when you are on a ship with someone who is very much used to flying with a lumber, then yes it will seem easy to use and far more powerful.
Muse don't balance for cogs, and I don't see the lumberjack being a problem at all in general games at the moment, if anything it is weak as hell in the hands of a new or mid exp gunner with a new/mid exp pilot.
-
TBH Hawacha with heavy clip can dissable ship at nearly 1000m away, while mercury and artemis can dissable specific components at even longer ranges (merc has about 3km range)
-
I am well aware of power creep, but if we just have nerfs without other adjustments we are going to end up with a very narrow allotment of weapons which are viable (one might say we do already). Balance is understandably hard of cause.
Well, then it's just a matter of nerfing the weapons that are too powerful. It can be easier to just buff what few weapons are too weak, but it highly depends. A lot of weapons can be overpowered because of a mechanic they have in common.
A big thing to consider is how long we want the average time-to-kill to be. Also relevant is how much skill investment should be needed to achieve that average time, as well as the general threshold for failure.
So we can't just nerf everything over and over, that'll result in the opposite of power creep (which is not named, because it almost Never Happens). A balance must be found. Hence, balance. :P
-
Any gun that requires you to use 2 ships working perfectly together to effectively counter needs to be looked at.
As for trying to disable a lumberjack well that isn't a viable option against opponents who are awake. The Artemis isn't going to get the job done anymore, the only real disable would be 2 mercs cycling fire and not missing any shots. Now you have a ship that has to be completely dedicated to disabling a single gun. That really doesn't make sense to me from a balance standpoint.
I get my lumberjack shot out all the time by mercs and artemis's and gats. It's really frustrating. The thing that lets me get it back up and viable again is great piloting by Squash, and accurate counter component breaking by someone on a merc, usually Applesauce but recently amazingly well done by Charon. Not to mention that the crew on the Dirty Duck are amazing at destroying guns with their own gatlings.
It's usually a team effort to get the Galleon firing at full strength.
What I'm saying is I play with one of the best teams in the game and I am continuously fucking frustrated with how often my lumberjack gets disabled :p usually while being charged by a ship, but sometimes by snipers (even in public games). I don't believe it needs an entire ship devoted to disabling it.
-
One more question, what other gun can you miss half the clip and still achieve the guns primary function?
If half a gat clip misses, the armor is fine, if half a flak clip misses the perma hull is fine. etc etc etc.
Another little experience I had today was with a guy who has never shot the LumberJack before, didn't even have lesmok as an ammo type. He was sinking two enemy galleons permanently. Oh he was also tagging a moving squid. The second match he put lesmok in and laughed. We weren't fighting scrubs or noobies during these games either. The gun is just supremely forgiving, as long as the cap and gunner share the same language. Left, Rght, Up, Down, moving forward, moving backward. Proving a noobie could use the gun caused alot of people to just quit the match afterward.
You give me a weapon that can reliably disable a single gun from 3km and I won't have anything to complain about.
I know I'm harping on this but it seriously does need a look. Alot of guns need a second look IMO because any game where competitive play whittles the choices down to two or three weapons...... well that's a problem.
Also I like how you use the argument "you can't balance off of competitive play" but when that same argument was used for the artemis it was considered invalid.
-
Shooting a squid with the lumberjack is really hard. How sure are you that he was new?
-
I've been playing with him since he started just over a week ago, and he never does anything but beat on the hull. He missed 2 shots of 6 firing on the squid and with the help of a single merc shot put the squid to sleep. The second time around he hit all 6 and insta gibbed the squid.(I think the squid may have taken a little gat fire from a passing friendly) when he got lesmok rounds the second game it was over he was giggling like a school girl over chat.
@ Nikolai you're dead wrong about it ONLY being useful against balloons. The Lumber still does ~115 damage to hull armor for every hit goes through a dead balloon, and ~95 to permahull. Not to mention its aoe can hurt guns pretty well if the gunner misses a tad low of the balloon.
Now unless the newest numbers posted are completely wrong I think that math is spot on.
-
Flying a flak, lumberjack, merc Galleon last night, I can tell you that they are still viable options. Try bringing some lesmok rounds. The only reason you see so much hwacha is because it's easy and effective at making you not die. It seriously lacks killing power though, which is good.
-
I will vouch that the damage bleed into the hull from a dead balloon is what really makes the Lumberjack a monster.
-
Not to discount Ofi's new gunner (someone who showed a lot of skill with a new gun) I think it worth mentioning that Ofi's most recent example came from a three v three on desert scrap against a rather unorganized team. I was on one of the enemy galleons and we were functionally stationary capping the point and getting hit by clouds and frankly our engineers weren't really that good (more concerned with shooting the merc than repairing half the time. i was gunning at the time)
Three v three, especially those of the CP variety is where the lumberjack shines as it is easy to use it and not have to worry about being directly charged. If the goal had been kill the enemy as opposed to take the target, there would have been a vastly different scenario.
-
One more question, what other gun can you miss half the clip and still achieve the guns primary function?
How about the light mortar! Not to mention the flare, the flamethrower, the heavy flak, the artemis the rocket carousel...
You give me a weapon that can reliably disable a single gun from 3km and I won't have anything to complain about.
The Mercury Field Gun. Also the Lumberjack only has an effective range of 2km with an exceptional gunner.
-
Shooting a squid with the lumberjack is really hard. How sure are you that he was new?
I'm the guy he's talking about. New? I'm not terribly new. I played a few weeks ago and failed, but I got serious last week once college let out.
I'm the WORST shot on the crew. That's why I'm good at being an engineer. I was SHOCKED at how easy the lumberjack is. I was laughing so hard when I put lesmok in. Seriously. Lumberjack is the easiest gun a person can use, and it's the deadliest.
-
One more question, what other gun can you miss half the clip and still achieve the guns primary function?
How about the light mortar! Not to mention the flare, the flamethrower, the heavy flak, the artemis the rocket carousel...
Even if flak misses half a clip (either clip) it still basicaly takes out half of of permahull. While it sucks to loose the baloon, (especialy if you didn't take the drogue shoot) - ballon can be repaired, while permahull can't.
You give me a weapon that can reliably disable a single gun from 3km and I won't have anything to complain about.
The Mercury Field Gun. Also the Lumberjack only has an effective range of 2km with an exceptional gunner.
Yeah what Smollet said. And as Morblitz said, dissabling heavy guns is so easy - 2 mercs can not only dissable doth heavy guns but also keep hull armor down on a galleon.
@TehPao:
you might be right, if you don't count all the guns that are easier to shoot (merc, gat, l. flak, flamer, l.carrorade, h.carrorade, artemis, banshee, manticore).
-
@TehPao:
you might be right, if you don't count all the guns that are easier to shoot (merc, gat, l. flak, flamer, l.carrorade, h.carrorade, artemis, banshee, manticore).
I think that the only thing easier than a lumber is the carronades. (I wouldn't count flamethrower as a gun.)
-
(http://gunsoficarus.com/web-images/GuyOnFalcon_awkm.jpg)
Okay back, not like I was really away. I HAVE MY EYES ON YOU!!
Some things to clarify:
Damage that is passed through a component to the hull applies proper damage modifiers as if that damage was hitting the hull. In other words, LJ shots to a broken balloon will not be modified as huge OP balloon modified damage. The hull only takes 30% of Flechette damage. After all things considered, the LJ damage towards hull is similar to other Explosive small weapons like the Artemis.
With that said, I have no plans on changing the LJ any further.
Field Gun also will not see any significant changes other than a possible penetrating shot since it's already in its own weird gameplay space. Pentrating as in the bullet will go through things and hit stuff behind it. E.g. line up the guns on the bottom deck on a Galleon and take the lined items out in one shot. It'll be hard to pull off but interesting nonetheless. Since Artemis has been brought to attention, even post nerf (and again the values are similar to pre v1.2 sans the turning arcs), Field Gun might be an interesting choice again.
Someone said something about no long range disable. Not true. Field Gun is a long range component disabler. You could argue that Hwacha is too but you'll need skills and even with that, projectiles are either too slow or not enough bullets hit (Lesmok vs. Heavy vs. Burst)—the trade offs are many so I don't really consider this to be really long range. The problem is accurate long range multiple disabler, which was the OP Artemis. It was easy to shoot, shot fast, and had huge AoE. This is not ideal. Not being close enough to retaliate and being completely disabled (and also disables means not being able to get closer to retaliate or even escape) is simply not fun. Options other than being a sitting duck must be there.
And again, the pitch turning arcs for Artemis and Carronade... the intention is not to nerf them but to push maneuvering and ship movement in a specific direction—make it even more important to telegraph types of attack passes. Like how in fighting games like Street Fighter you're always trying to figure out if they're going to do a high or low attack, I want to stress the same kind of positioning awareness in this game (more so than it was) .
-
@TehPao:
you might be right, if you don't count all the guns that are easier to shoot (merc, gat, l. flak, flamer, l.carrorade, h.carrorade, artemis, banshee, manticore).
I think that the only thing easier than a lumber is the carronades. (I wouldn't count flamethrower as a gun.)
You think - it is your personall opinion.
By the fiering mechanism (perticles and raycast, for flamers and carrorades&gattlings respectively), or by projectile arc and speed (manticore, artemis, merc, banshee) are tehnicaly all much easier to hit with.
-
I actually think the game mechanic for telegraphing attacks is really interesting awkm.
Unfortunately this has effectively acted as a rather large nerf for carronades. Now if carronades could only shoot downwards... that could be interesting.
-
Hwacha as a long range disable is a bit of a joke, the bullets are coming in so slowly you can lift above them or drop below them without even using chute vent or hydrogen. Even at closer ranges a well timed chute vent when you see the first hwacha shell leave the gun will get you out of most of the damage.
You are also comparing guns that have spread and bloom to a gun that is just 100% accurate on the same spot every time. The only other gun that compares is the scylla and that weapons projectiles are so slow and short range the comparison is once again a little bit out of place.
The only gun that even compares to a lumberjack is a merc light field gun, and it has 2 shells and a slower fire rate. It's funny that one of the sniper weapons actually feels like a sniper, the merc, while the other sniping option just feels like a god finger.
None of the weapons you mentioned accomplish their roles missing half a clip, except the flamer and carronade. Comparing the LJ to the carronade and flamer is like comparing a shotgun to a 30-30 and saying they're the same.
Also Sammy, sorry but that's a load, both your junker and pyri in the second game were trying to rush us because tehpao was making jokes in lobby about the lumber. They gave up half way through the game and decided to try and hide inside the wreckage. And then just quit after that second game.
Also awkm 115 armor damage every following shot from a lumber, and once it pops your balloon the first time that is at least 4 shots hitting your hull. so ~ 460 damage to hull armor, when you say 30% it sounds nice but that's spin control. Oh well just like every other game it's gonna be sniper hard camps v brawlers. At least in most other games there is cover almost everywhere so you can approach without having to try to cover a Kilometer in the open.
Oh well I have been over ruled like I knew I would, my compliments to the Swarm.
-
I agree about the carronade. The weapon is designed to hit baloons. Why would someone in the real world design a weapon to hit the top of a ship, and the force the person firing to shoot from the worst possible angle to hit that part?
Gameplay balance is fine, but if it doesn't make logical sense it is off-putting.
-
@ Nikolai you're dead wrong about it ONLY being useful against balloons. The Lumber still does ~115 damage to hull armor for every hit goes through a dead balloon, and ~95 to permahull. Not to mention its aoe can hurt guns pretty well if the gunner misses a tad low of the balloon.
Now unless the newest numbers posted are completely wrong I think that math is spot on.
Yeah, it does an okay amount of damage to armor and hull. However, Flechette (which LJ deals on AoE) deals literally zero damage to guns and engines. You'd need to hit them with the shatter damage, directly, which is only a piddly 50 shatter damage.
Otherwise, Lumberjack seems fine to me. Not overpowered, not really underpowered.
-
@ nikolai that's 100 shatter damage per shell against engines and guns. The large AOE makes it easy to tag the components along with the balloon on a pyramidion or a goldfish. That may not kill in one shot but it does screw with the gun.
Also the numbers don't seem to calculate correctly I have to run some tests to double check but, today I was paying close attention while fighting a LumberFish and the shots after the balloon popped were taking about a quarter of the midions Armor a shot. I need to do a controlled environment test just to be sure.
-
Hwacha as a long range disable is a bit of a joke, the bullets are coming in so slowly you can lift above them or drop below them without even using chute vent or hydrogen. Even at closer ranges a well timed chute vent when you see the first hwacha shell leave the gun will get you out of most of the damage.
You are also comparing guns that have spread and bloom to a gun that is just 100% accurate on the same spot every time. The only other gun that compares is the scylla and that weapons projectiles are so slow and short range the comparison is once again a little bit out of place.
The only gun that even compares to a lumberjack is a merc light field gun, and it has 2 shells and a slower fire rate. It's funny that one of the sniper weapons actually feels like a sniper, the merc, while the other sniping option just feels like a god finger.
None of the weapons you mentioned accomplish their roles missing half a clip, except the flamer and carronade. Comparing the LJ to the carronade and flamer is like comparing a shotgun to a 30-30 and saying they're the same.
Also Sammy, sorry but that's a load, both your junker and pyri in the second game were trying to rush us because tehpao was making jokes in lobby about the lumber. They gave up half way through the game and decided to try and hide inside the wreckage. And then just quit after that second game.
Also awkm 115 armor damage every following shot from a lumber, and once it pops your balloon the first time that is at least 4 shots hitting your hull. so ~ 460 damage to hull armor, when you say 30% it sounds nice but that's spin control. Oh well just like every other game it's gonna be sniper hard camps v brawlers. At least in most other games there is cover almost everywhere so you can approach without having to try to cover a Kilometer in the open.
Oh well I have been over ruled like I knew I would, my compliments to the Swarm.
Heavier ships like Galleon and pyramidion I know don't have enought vertical acceleration bo be able to lift out of the Hawacha without hydro or chute vent even at long range, especialy if they have good gunners that can lead you well (when you are lumberjacking your ship has to be relatively slow moving, and even more moving very predictably, so your gunner can compensate), hitting is not that hard (ussualy you fire entire clip of hawacha in 1 burst, if you broke hawacha barrage into say 6 bursts you could always hit with most of the clip). Lumberjack has smiilar spread to Typhoon (the major diffirence being that with typhoon you shoot directly at the recticle and clearly see the deviation, while with lumberjack you don't) - at ablut 1-1.2KM range gunners typicaly switch to heavy clip, becouse it makes lumberjack incredibly accurate (lumberjack does not have muc longer range with heavy clip, and without it the spread can be an issue). At about 800M range hawacha with heavy clip has small enough spread to be able to destroy heavy weapons (so there abouts - just short of maximim range with heavy clip) - witch is something I've gotten good at lateley: destroying heavy guns on slow moving ships with hawacha (I've only recently started doing more gunning), likevise light flak nad gatling have almost no spread and are incredibly easy to hit -(gatling and carrorade are easy to hit becouse they are mechanicaly not a balistic weapon). Carrorade parcticaly auto hits (is it in crosshairs when you fire? - litraly how it works, less spread = more damage => heavy clip is your friend when using carrorade as well).
Not all weapons are meant to destroy ships - gatling can destroy a heavy gun with 25-30% of the clip (you can take out both the hull armor and heavy gun with the same clip on enemy Goldfish - but you need heavy clip). Banshee can't realy do shit on it's own, but it's job it to cause mayhem by setting stuff on fire. Artemis still can dissable components if only half a clip (even full clip will do next to nothing to permahull - it primary purpose is component dissable). And a single hit with flaregun will add 15 stacks of fire witch will force at least one engineer to deal with the fire and severe baloon damage (that is if closest enginner has chem spray instead of extinguisher otherwise it can be less). --And then there is a light mortat that can still miss half a clip and destroy the permahull of everything not goldfish or galleon).
While merc has lower rate of fire and less shells than lumberjack, it can accomplish anything with thse shots (except baloon and permahull damage - altho there were times at start of the year and untill about the time of Claiming of The Fjords tournament [seems like ages ago, with all the changes] when Mercs were kind of broken and you could kill a squid with 3 or maybe 5 hits [witch took no skill at long range]).
I personaly am a brawler, and still be running flamer/gat combo if famer could kick dunners of their gun instantly (i'm running gat/mortar or gat/flak combo ussualy) - AND is till think both merc and lumberjack are balanced fine.
@ nikolai that's 100 shatter damage per shell against engines and guns. The large AOE makes it easy to tag the components along with the balloon on a pyramidion or a goldfish. That may not kill in one shot but it does screw with the gun.
Also the numbers don't seem to calculate correctly I have to run some tests to double check but, today I was paying close attention while fighting a LumberFish and the shots after the balloon popped were taking about a quarter of the midions Armor a shot. I need to do a controlled environment test just to be sure.
LJ AoE literaly deals 0 (ZERO)! damage to components like engines and guns (it's flachete damage witch has 0 modifier - any number multiplied by zero is zero).
midion? If you are reffering to pyra thant you got something wrong - I have been repairing thru LJ barages many times, even on COGS and I can tell you 1 LJ shot does not take a quater of Pyramidion's armor, it in fact takes a consistent LJ barage that hits 5/6 shots on average to become an issue. Taking out Goldfishe's Armor is much easier even With LJ.
-
Lumberjack has smiilar spread to Typhoon (the major diffirence being that with typhoon you shoot directly at the recticle and clearly see the deviation, while with lumberjack you don't) - at ablut 1-1.2KM range gunners typicaly switch to heavy clip, becouse it makes lumberjack incredibly accurate (lumberjack does not have muc longer range with heavy clip, and without it the spread can be an issue).
Smoke two in the morning..... ?
Your understanding of mechanics is just plain wrong, or you're trolling me, or (and I'm hoping this is the case) english isn't a strong language for you and you have misstated this. Heavy Clip on a LumberJack, does absolutely nothing, wait sorry it actually makes the gun a little worse. Bullet deviation does not happen with a Lumberjack unless your pilot is diddling the wheel for fun.
Making an assumption here but. Don't just listen to the stream and think you know how it works, Qwerty is wrong on ammo types ALOT heavy for an artemis, heavy for a mortar, etc etc. he's fun to listen to but he needs to brush up on some of the mechanics.
Also... A pyri is too slow to dodge a hwacha barrage??? If the guy is past 500 meters hes gonna miss and I won't have to use chute or hydro. The galleon might have to but the hwacha does no damage to the balloon so who cares if you chute vent or hydro out of the way?
A gat can kill a goldfishes front gun and it's hull armor with one heavy clip??? Seriously *looks around* wheres the camera for this episode of punk'd.
Mattilald are you even playing the same game?
-
I have issue with the Manticore. The thought that it doesn't do a lot of hull damage seems false to me. You can take out a galleon in three shots, the first shot having disabled most if not every component (guns, engines), leaving any ship crippled right off the bat. Then it's just a waiting game on reloads. A single person using the spanner on a component will have about 1 second before the next Manticore hit lands.
If anything, I'd want the manticore to do next to no damage to the hull as it is already such a disability powerhouse.
-
Lumberjack has smiilar spread to Typhoon (the major diffirence being that with typhoon you shoot directly at the recticle and clearly see the deviation, while with lumberjack you don't) - at ablut 1-1.2KM range gunners typicaly switch to heavy clip, becouse it makes lumberjack incredibly accurate (lumberjack does not have muc longer range with heavy clip, and without it the spread can be an issue).
Smoke two in the morning..... ?
Your understanding of mechanics is just plain wrong, or you're trolling me, or (and I'm hoping this is the case) english isn't a strong language for you and you have misstated this. Heavy Clip on a LumberJack, does absolutely nothing, wait sorry it actually makes the gun a little worse. Bullet deviation does not happen with a Lumberjack unless your pilot is diddling the wheel for fun.
Making an assumption here but. Don't just listen to the stream and think you know how it works, Qwerty is wrong on ammo types ALOT heavy for an artemis, heavy for a mortar, etc etc. he's fun to listen to but he needs to brush up on some of the mechanics.
Also... A pyri is too slow to dodge a hwacha barrage??? If the guy is past 500 meters hes gonna miss and I won't have to use chute or hydro. The galleon might have to but the hwacha does no damage to the balloon so who cares if you chute vent or hydro out of the way?
A gat can kill a goldfishes front gun and it's hull armor with one heavy clip??? Seriously *looks around* wheres the camera for this episode of punk'd.
Mattilald are you even playing the same game?
I'm not sure witch game YOU've been playing. I've not been not only watching stream (and ussualy I'm one of the people correcting qwerty and swallow) but I have streamed on a Tournament and COGs matches. The game streamed is the one I've been sinking most of my time into when it comes gaming.
I can generaly hit 55-60 shots per clip with gatling. Unless I fuck up marojrly, I take out Armor and the main gun on the Goldfish while using heavy clip (gatling has then practicaly 0 spread).
Typhoon and LJ have simmilar spread without any ammo. Like all weapons (with exception of Scyla witch has had it's spread removed 1.2) LJ and Typhoon have spread, not as much as hawacha, but it has. Heavy does not make spread worse on any weapon -by experience and definition. Yes it decreases the maximim range, but that is generally worth it for better accuracy or just becouse enemy is within your arming time (goes for both flak and LJ).
Pyra has ALL acerelation very slow. I've been practicing a lot on dodging hwacha barrages on pyra - and it is imposible agains good gunners without the use of propper tools. Good Hwacha gunner will dissable your stuff even when having you are hiding in a cloud and they are tracking your movement without sight or spot marker. Heavy clip makea an incredible diffirence in hawacha's spread. You don't have to kill the baloon with hawacha, you can simply kill the LJ or Typhoon enemy has - or at least up to 800 range. 1000 range will apparently still hit hard, but will have harder time destroying specific components.
-
If you want to slap-fight about who is more betterest when play game, do it elsewhere. Please focus on the relevant content in your posts.
I'm going to bring up the weird turning and firing mechanics again, because the physics seem wrong and counterintuitive. Since the weapons caster freely in their turning arcs, it really should only be the linear velocity of the gun emplacement in space that's transferred to the projectile. Putting a little turn in shouldn't cause a Mercury to start firing like it's bent 10 degrees one way or the other.
-
Face -> Desk over and over.
Heavy clip in a lumberjack is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard... I'm just saying if you don't understand the basics of a gun how can you make an informed opinion of it?
Jesus how can you even post when you don't understand the simplest of game mechanics. The lumberjack has 0 bullet deviation, heavy clip does absolutely nothing to the gun. No wait IT SLOWS THE BULLET DOWN, making it worse. Your previous replies I tried to ignore such as an all flamer squid being the ultimate counter to galleons ::).
I'm specifically talking about this gun and you don't have the foggiest idea of what ammo to use on it. At the risk of sounding repetitive how the hell can you make a post about a gun when you don't even understand how it works?
@ machiavellist you're right the topic did get derailed but that's what happens with goonswarm tactics, anything to change the focus.
-
Let's keep the discussion here civil, people.
-
@Machevialist: We'd have to actualy see the numbers crunched in the background for each specific shot fired while turning to be able to see whitch vector was used in the calculation of the bullet's vector at the start of it's arc. I'm not sure it does inherit angular velocity - it could be just the sideways direction of the gun mount when the ship is turning. But I could be wrong, this has long been cousing me problems won balistic weapons while turning.
-
It has probably already been brought up, but it's still a minor peeve to me, why does the flak gun have twin enormous visual clips on it, with such a tiny actual clip. I'm not greatly bothered by the mechanics of it presently, just the giant wing-looking clips. Also I'll second that the carousel is almost useless in most situations and the artemis could use a little tweaking.
-
Light flak was probably intended to have a larger clip originaly - just guesing tho. With the exception of vertical turning arc, artemis is perfectly ok, as for banshee I agree that it is more nuisance than anything else. For a short while after previous patch (or was it 1.1.4 i don't even remember anymore) banshee ws broken and was moonsineing with junker with 5 banshees and it was glorious ^^.
-
I think the Artemis could use it's vertical turning arc back, it's turning speed increased slightly, longer range for standard ammo and its pre nerf zoom back.
The big problems with the original 1.2 Artemis were with how it's velocity paired with it's AOE shatter damage ammo and rate of fire created an unrepairable gun and engine lock from any range, any angle and at any skill level.
I think the changes to velocity and AOE combined with the change in rate of fire and reload more than addressed those issues. The rest of the changes seemed like overkill.
-
It's pretty easy to see how angular velocity is inherited. Get on a gat on a Squid, then have the pilot turn left, then switch right. You'll see that you have to do the opposite of lead a target when turning (lag, I guess). Bullets inherit the velocity of the ship. For example, if you're firing off the side of a moving Squid, without drag, the bullet will hit as if the Squid were motionless, provided there's not massive acceleration (which refers to both getting faster and getting slower).
It seems like the algorithm translates the angular velocity of the ship into a sideways vector for the projectile/ray. However, simply turning a ship doesn't make a gun that casters freely suddenly wing its shots off in the same direction as the ships rotation, and certainly doesn't make the projectile fire further in the direction of rotation than the gun is pointing when the projectile leaves the barrel. This also appears to be similarly true for climbs/descents while firing. Again, you should never have to lag a target.
-
Projectiles inherit the linear velocity of their gun's mount point. That is all. (or, at least, that should be all...)
-
Face -> Desk over and over.
Heavy clip in a lumberjack is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard... I'm just saying if you don't understand the basics of a gun how can you make an informed opinion of it?
Jesus how can you even post when you don't understand the simplest of game mechanics. The lumberjack has 0 bullet deviation, heavy clip does absolutely nothing to the gun. No wait IT SLOWS THE BULLET DOWN, making it worse. Your previous replies I tried to ignore such as an all flamer squid being the ultimate counter to galleons ::).
I'm specifically talking about this gun and you don't have the foggiest idea of what ammo to use on it. At the risk of sounding repetitive how the hell can you make a post about a gun when you don't even understand how it works?
@ machiavellist you're right the topic did get derailed but that's what happens with goonswarm tactics, anything to change the focus.
Well if you are willing to have a civil discussion on the Lumberjack I will gladly oblige now that I am back from vacation. I've read all the arguments but it seemed to of gotten skewed after awkm responded.
Heavy IS good for one thing in a Lumberjack, and that is to slow the projectile, thus decreasing the max range of the arming time. It's best when you do have someone charging at you. No ammo will fully eliminate the arming time, but ones that slow projectile speed will decrease it in your favor.
-
Lumberjack OPness
Okay, so some people think the LJ is OP. Some even said that it takes very few hits to destroy the hull with damage overflow. I just did isolated tests. Number of hits required to destroy any ship with or without balloon is in accordance with my calculations. Although Flechette against Hull is 20% effective... an LJ shot against Hull is a total of 65 dmg (50 Shatter * 0.1 + 300 Flechette * 0.2 = 65).
Players who have claimed that it takes less hits must be attacking a damaged ship... or there is a more serious bug at play but it doesn't seem to be the case.
Carronade Pitch Degrees
The two choices were to have them shoot up or down. Down seems like the most sense. I want to keep them down, duh. However, an increase to downward pitch ended up being quite OP under my own tests. I have thought and tested this. It allowed the carronade ship to be very very close and almost right on top of the victim. Even if the victim managed to hydrogen up, the carronade ship would be able to maintain firing arc very easily.
Artemis Zoom, Yaw Speed, Pitch Degrees
I want to wait a little longer to gather more data. The same goes for carronades as well. Needs more time to stew.
Something else will be OP to take your mind off of these changes.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.
-
Would it be possible to make it so the Carronade can only aim down, but not farther than it used to?
-
Would it be possible to make it so the Carronade can only aim down, but not farther than it used to?
Then the Artemis must only aim up!
I'm still trying to see if this is really a big deal or it's just taking some time for everyone to figure it out. I want people to use some Chute Vent. Or how about I increase the downward angle slightly... currently I can still be above someone and fire, just need to be further away. Still deadly when paired with Heavy.
-
As a newer player who hasn't used the older cannonades, I can say that I don't have much of a problem (as a pilot) positioning the light, side-mounted cannonade on the squid into firing position. The lowest you have to be is level with their balloon.
But then again, that's about the only time I use the cannonade.
-
Guess I'm the only one that likes that the carronade can't aim down now, and hell, I use one on my Galleon. Before the nerf the carronade is the only gun that could kill enemies without any other guns. Think about that.
-
Guess I'm the only one that likes that the carronade can't aim down now, and hell, I use one on my Galleon. Before the nerf the carronade is the only gun that could kill enemies without any other guns. Think about that.
If you couldn't kill something with a lone lumberjack or hwacha, you need new gunners. Knowing yours though, I'm not quite sure how you came to that assumption? Balloon lock kills are never that fast.
-
Carronades now are a way to force people down when they hang high, rather than "let's die a slow painful death!" I like the change. Livens the game up.
-
Lumberjack OPness
Okay, so some people think the LJ is OP. Some even said that it takes very few hits to destroy the hull with damage overflow. I just did isolated tests. Number of hits required to destroy any ship with or without balloon is in accordance with my calculations. Although Flechette against Hull is 20% effective... an LJ shot against Hull is a total of 65 dmg (50 Shatter * 0.1 + 300 Flechette * 0.2 = 65).
Players who have claimed that it takes less hits must be attacking a damaged ship... or there is a more serious bug at play but it doesn't seem to be the case.
http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/weapons/
This claims the Flechette modifier against Hull is .3.
Do you now see why you need to offer your community numbers? Do you, awkm!? >:( We can't have accurate discussion about weapons without numbers, man! The system just breaks down, man! We need information, man!
-
http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/weapons/
This claims the Flechette modifier against Hull is .3.
Do you now see why you need to offer your community numbers? Do you, awkm!? >:( We can't have accurate discussion about weapons without numbers, man! The system just breaks down, man! We need information, man!
What do you mean it's 0.3? It's 0.2!!! Get some glasses!
lulz
There are a lot of charts, spreadsheets, and other crap to update. It's a pain in the ass. But 0.2 is the number that's live right now on the servers so I changed mine to reflect what you're experiencing. AND NOT PUSHING 0.3 TO THE SERVERS INSTEAD hahahahaha.
The numbers available are the numbers available. The rest you'll have to do by feel.
The only numbers you're missing are hard pitch and yaw degrees, pitch and yaw speeds, rate of fire, and related gravity/drop stuff. I'd like you to know them by feel, not by charts like I know them. To me, omniscience takes away a part of the experience that makes games interesting—mystery and cracking the designers' secrets. Other games make this simple by creating a barrier between player and designer. However, you have access to me here so it feels like you should have all the information but I won't open Pandora's Box because it will take away from that enjoyment from figuring out what's going on beneath the hood. A visceral mastery vs. a mental one.
There are many things that I do that you will not immediately understand. You will think that it's stupid, ridiculous, unneeded. This is fine, I expect you to think these things. At some point though, I hope, these changes will slowly evolve and shape the meta gameplay in an organic fashion. The moment of discovery and getting to know a mechanic is maintained. If I come out explaining why I do things all of the time then I think the experience will be very sterile. At some point, though, I hope an understanding will be reached. If not, then I try again.
Ultimately, game design is a conversation between player and designer except that I communicate to you with mechanics and not words. I want to preserve that if possible. At the end of the day, I hope everyone entertains some of my more bizarre changes. It's true that some might be very strange or even broken—mistakes happen all the time—but the intent is to never make the experience worse.
I could do that easily by making flames disable everything instantly again :P
I hope everyone keeps this idea in mind.
-
LoL so many people wuold like the so called flamer "op"ness back ^^ (for many reasone - one of them giving the gunner a place on the ship again).
Would help at least of the damage matrix would be kept up to date (so we can poin newbies to an accurate sorce of information to witch weapon is how effective against what thing a.k.a what witch weapon is generaly good at).
-
I would like to see something that hurts up close for a squid. The flame used to fill that role, but now it takes too long for a hit and run and isn't reliable enough for a sustained chase.
-
Okay, so some people think the LJ is OP. Some even said that it takes very few hits to destroy the hull with damage overflow. I just did isolated tests. Number of hits required to destroy any ship with or without balloon is in accordance with my calculations. Although Flechette against Hull is 20% effective... an LJ shot against Hull is a total of 65 dmg (50 Shatter * 0.1 + 300 Flechette * 0.2 = 65).
Initial and continuous ground impact damage would shorten that.
Projectiles inherit the linear velocity of their gun's mount point. That is all. (or, at least, that should be all...)
I am absolutely sure that this isn't modeled right. Even a slight left turn while firing a gatling gun on an opponent causes you to have to lag your aim to the right a relatively large amount. Since the guns are castering, a slight rotation should be mostly unnoticeable because the castering removes any need for angular modeling on the gun, and the slight turn imparts negligible linear velocity to the emplacement's position.
If it's only the emplacement's linear velocity (presumably converted from angular velocity with the emplacement's horizontal distance from the center of rotation multiplied by the angular velocity) inherited, maybe the lever arm is too long? Or maybe the acceleration is inherited to the projectile, rather than just the velocity? Since the projectile leaves the barrel ~instantaneously, there's no acceleration applied to it by the ship's motion.
EDIT: Removed some horrible grammar/formatting.
-
I would like to see something that hurts up close for a squid. The flame used to fill that role, but now it takes too long for a hit and run and isn't reliable enough for a sustained chase.
Oh goodness, potential new gun ideas.
-
I want something that you can take on a squid, get up real nice and close to some vital component of theirs, and then run away for a reload after leaving a sizable hole in their component, their armor, and leave some flames around too while you are at it. The kind of gun that needs a pilot as crazy as I am to hit right. Barely able to turn, no range, suicidal at times.The kind of thing that would get a squid right up on the broad side of a Galleon and send the Galleon's crew crying home.
-
This would be the kind of weapon you would pair a harpoon with on the side of a junker. Draw them in and then absolutely cripple them once they get to about 3 meters away.
-
This would be the kind of weapon you would pair a harpoon with on the side of a junker. Draw them in and then absolutely cripple them once they get to about 3 meters away.
Yes... once harpoons actually behaving predictably. Or at least more so.
-
@ Zill IMO the heavy is the worst round for the slowing down of the projectile, I always ask people to bring incendiary for when they get inside the normal arming distance. Also in the context it was being suggest heavy was good for, long range accuracy, it is a useless round.
Also what I had said awkm was it takes down ARMOR relatively easily, and once the balloon goes down it does take out armor
the merc field gun takes out ~172 armor hp a shot, and has 2 rounds, the LJ hits the armor for ~115 and has 6 shots. So a merc has potential hull damage of ~344 and the LJ has potential damage ~690. The reload on the merc is slow enough to not have to factor in a third shot by the time the LJ has fired 6 rounds.
Here's the thing that gets me, the LJ is meant to pop balloons, the merc is meant to destroy components and armor. Getting hit by a lumber jack causes at least 2 engineers to go into tank mode on the hull and balloon but when a merc is shooting at you a single engineer can repair through it. yes one is a light and one is a heavy weapon but that discrepancy is huge, Not to mention alot of the other heavy guns don't even hold a candle to the LJ, the hwacha disables.... and that's it. The heavy flak is great once the armor is gone, the carronade requires up close fire and a long time ground bouncing to kill.
I'm not even going to talk about the weapons when you pair them with others or, god forbid, 2 LJ's are stomping a ship. I'm just pointing out the obvious superiority of this weapon to anything else. Also think about what you can do when under fire from the other weapons, a hwacha just time its barrages, a carronade stay away from it, heavy flak well you don't really worry about that until the armor is down. A LJ move up and down.... nope chute or hydrogen just leave your balloon easier to kill. Side to side sure show the biggest side of your balloon, yeah that's another no. get inside it's armoing time, great idea but only possible if the pilot and gunners aren't paying attention or position themselves badly.
-
What if the harpoon was the new close range gun. 200 piercing anyone? We do need a new piercing weapon badly.
-
god forbid, 2 LJ's are stomping a ship.
Not as effective as you'd think.
-
I would like to see something that hurts up close for a squid. The flame used to fill that role, but now it takes too long for a hit and run and isn't reliable enough for a sustained chase.
Oh goodness, potential new gun ideas.
I've got a cool-sounding steampunk-ish name for it:
Kinetic Silver Revolver
Perhaps a cross between a shotgun and revolver weapon which does more damage the faster your ship is going. That would open up some hit-and run options for a squid, and be useful on other ships as well.
Annyways, another thought that has bubbled up off the top of my head: as far as weapon-balance goes, I'm not really see banshees used a whole lot. It may be just because of the current gat/flak meta. I'm not sure if banshees need an outright buff, or if they just need a better appeal. I think they are decent all-rounders, but usually ships are specialized, so they don't quite fit in in my opinion.
-
That's the problem with the carousel. It's pretty decent at lots of things, but decent doesn't cut it.
-
Put a banshee on top deck, and carronade on bottom deck of a junker broadside. Have fun.
-
Something like a slug for a shotgun? Massive shatter, but a relatively short range and just one shot to make it happen?
-
The need for an extreme close range weapon has been identified.
Let's please move new gun ideas into another thread.
-
In other news you never see a typhon fish anymore, the arming time + the armour mod seem to have killed this once ubiquitous breed of fish. Seeing as the fjords tournament is a distant ( and somewhat sour) memory it could be worth looking at the flak again.
-
Nah awkm, I'd keep it here until it's fielded so that people can offer their dissent beforehand.
Glad that caught your attention, but the totally broken fucking physics on aiming need attention, too.
-
The need for an extreme close range weapon has been identified.
Let's please move new gun ideas into another thread.
I went ahead and made a thread on it: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1153.0.html (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1153.0.html)
I think the heavy flak is fine. I prefer it over the lumberjack, actually.
-
Nah awkm, I'd keep it here until it's fielded so that people can offer their dissent beforehand.
Glad that caught your attention, but the totally broken fucking physics on aiming need attention, too.
Any non balance issues will be deleted or moved.
If you have a bug to report, report it to feedback@musegames.com and provide reproduction cases. For your issue, if you can record video and explain how you expect it to work and how that differs from what you are getting would be most helpful.
-
So, with carronades and artemis getting firing arc nerfs, when is/will the gatling going to get in those crosshairs?
Yes, I went there.
-
So, with carronades and artemis getting firing arc nerfs, when is/will the gatling going to get in those crosshairs?
Yes, I went there.
You mean the crosshairs that shrink and grow? That's a feature request... so not for a while. Very low priority at this point.
-
I think he is asking when/if the Gatling gun is going to have its effectiveness reduced. This is a question that weighs on my mind as well. The Mo' Dakka Dakka Dakka (my Pyramidion) is currently sporting three Gatling guns. When used in conjunction with an ally ship that has a Manticore the combination is very powerful. I have won games that I don't feel I should have been able to win by throwing a crap ton of bullets at my target via multiple Gatling guns.
My thinking is as follows:
Against a good team 80% of the time your bullets are going to be hitting hull armor so I should take the gun that does the most dps against hull armor.
-
I do agree that the gatling gun could be toned down as well, or an alternative armor shredder could be introduced. As of now, the gatling gun pretty much an auto-take on most medium-sized ships.
-
I've never thought of the gattling as OP, since honestly something has to take down the armor of an enemy. I just think we need more ways to do it.
I will give it to you though hands down that the gattling is the best weapon in the game.
-
Ah I get it. Piercing is very tricky. I can't touch gatling right now until more piercing options are available. Right now it is a close/middle range option for armor destruction. Harpoon is weird enough that upping its piercing in the future feels alright to me but I'd like to see it with additional harpoon work.
In order to mix things up, we're reaching feature request territory so it's going to be tough.
-
I think he is asking when/if the Gatling gun is going to have its effectiveness reduced. This is a question that weighs on my mind as well. The Mo' Dakka Dakka Dakka (my Pyramidion) is currently sporting three Gatling guns. When used in conjunction with an ally ship that has a Manticore the combination is very powerful. I have won games that I don't feel I should have been able to win by throwing a crap ton of bullets at my target via multiple Gatling guns.
My thinking is as follows:
Against a good team 80% of the time your bullets are going to be hitting hull armor so I should take the gun that does the most dps against hull armor.
That's the power of coordination, unfortionately such builds can fall prey to divide and conquer, and then the fall hard. [Divide an conquer could work in a number of way in this game -belive we have tried such builds, they only work against poorly coordinated teams]
Unfortionately as awkm pointed out it's the only medium and short range piercing weapon (harpoon doesen't really count due to it being a support tool rather than an offensive weapon)
-
Awkm, I only meant the firing arc of the gun itself, not the damage. I can see why you don't touch it with a 10ft pole currently, though one could argue a merc can perform the same result with some finesse.
-
Machiavelliest: My own observations agree that there's something ...funny... going on with guns+turning. At the moment I (along with the rest of the programmers) am obsessing over server performance, so I haven't had time to investigate it fully.
There is one piece of buggy behavior I have identified: when you first jump on a gun, you see it at zero yaw/pitch even though the gun may not actually be there yet on the server (it's moving towards that position at its normal yaw/pitch speeds). This can definitely cause the first shot or two to appear wildly off in some cases, and will be fixed soon-ish.
-
Machiavelliest: My own observations agree that there's something ...funny... going on with guns+turning. At the moment I (along with the rest of the programmers) am obsessing over server performance, so I haven't had time to investigate it fully.
Thank you for responding to that issue. I'll stop harping on it now.
-
Awkm, I only meant the firing arc of the gun itself, not the damage. I can see why you don't touch it with a 10ft pole currently, though one could argue a merc can perform the same result with some finesse.
Firing arc? Maybe later when there are other piercing options.
And yes, the Field Gun is great at taking out armor. Although it does require some planning and therefore skill.
-
What if instead of shatter carronades did piercing damage? We already have the Lumberjack for flechette/shatter.
-
What if instead of shatter carronades did piercing damage?
To be fair, carronades are pretty decent at armor destruction already. It's the hull that stops them.
-
Totally right Zill, they're pretty decent, but they aren't at the same level as gattling guns, a small amount of piercing damage would give them that.
-
I was about to say you never felt the bite of Zil's Blender-Galleon, but then I remembered that he used it on your team as well ^^
Against some ships heavy carrorade focus works well, just not against a galleon that has both a LJ and a hawacha (I have been on the receiving end of that build amd I just couldn't outrepair double heavy carrorade armor damage, and then when the armor was down, he just finished us with echidna). Heavy carrorade with piercing could very easily be OP.
-
How was he hitting you with a heavy carronade, a hwacha and a lumberjack?
-
I was about to say you never felt the bite of Zil's Blender-Galleon, but then I remembered that he used it on your team as well ^^
Against some ships heavy carrorade focus works well, just not against a galleon that has both a LJ and a hawacha (I have been on the receiving end of that build amd I just couldn't outrepair double heavy carrorade armor damage, and then when the armor was down, he just finished us with echidna). Heavy carrorade with piercing could very easily be OP.
Yea hwachas are the scourge of that layout. It's too bad the only recorded use of it was in that match, lol.
I like the shatter on carronades for the small degree of gun destruction you get, like when facing a metamidion. I agree with Mattilald that adding piercing, even if removing the shatter, would make it OP. I mean, at 1.1.5 they had to lower the armor modifier to balance it out.
The reason they aren't as great as the gat is of course because it's not the primary role of the gun, which is fine. Merc and gat will have that advantage, and I think a new gun would be preferable to tweaking the existing armory to that extent.
-
How was he hitting you with a heavy carronade, a hwacha and a lumberjack?
No you understood wrong. He was hitting us with double carrorade, but when Zil went against your team with the same build, Captain Smollet was hitting Zil with hawacha and LJ and that is an anthithesis for Blender-Galleon.Yea hwachas are the scourge of that layout. It's too bad the only recorded use of it was in that match, lol.
I like the shatter on carronades for the small degree of gun destruction you get, like when facing a metamidion. I agree with Mattilald that adding piercing, even if removing the shatter, would make it OP. I mean, at 1.1.5 they had to lower the armor modifier to balance it out.
The reason they aren't as great as the gat is of course because it's not the primary role of the gun, which is fine. Merc and gat will have that advantage, and I think a new gun would be preferable to tweaking the existing armory to that extent.
It didn't help that your timing wasn't as good as it was against us. I fogot on that map we were doing our match 3, I just remember we lost that match ^^ (and with it our Scrimmage with score of 2 - 1).
-
god forbid, 2 LJ's are stomping a ship.
Not as effective as you'd think.
Ummm WHAT? 2 LJ's rip hull armor faster than 2 gats can! not to mention every permahull shot takes ~ 95 damage! I'm sorry but to bring the lumber in line it needs to lose 2 shells! it penalizes you for missing. and rewards you for hitting.
-
No you understood wrong. He was hitting us with double carrorade, but when Zil went against your team with the same build, Captain Smollet was hitting Zil with hawacha and LJ and that is an anthithesis for Blender-Galleon.
Smollett did? I'll have to rewatch that.
-
No you understood wrong. He was hitting us with double carrorade, but when Zil went against your team with the same build, Captain Smollet was hitting Zil with hawacha and LJ and that is an anthithesis for Blender-Galleon.
Smollett did? I'll have to rewatch that.
Sorry thought he was piloting the galleon.
-
I'll be honest I didn't really understand the quad carronade thing, I've never really had any success with it, what's the principle?
-
Squash... just stick to your dickhead build! I'll figure out a way to beat it eventually! XD
-
I'll be honest I didn't really understand the quad carronade thing, I've never really had any success with it, what's the principle?
You basicaly gat/flak galleon that can pop baloons at the same time. At least that's what impression I got from being on the receiving end. 2 heavy carrorades should be able to chew thru pyra armor and baloon faster than pyra's gat will chew thru galleon's armor (also forces the guy on flat to help with repair). Zil should know best what the exact idea behind that build of his was.
-
You're right Mattiland that actually does make sense, thanks!
-
I'll be honest I didn't really understand the quad carronade thing, I've never really had any success with it, what's the principle?
At first it was an experiment to see if it was even feasible. Once I got that out of the way, I started considering the strategy behind it. Pretty much, it shreds balloon's and hull armor pretty fast. This sends engineer's everywhere. Don't forget the shatter too, so you can still disable guns. Since it's raycast, you can move full throttle, and still hit shots, thus making you a harder target. I put a flak on the top left for kill shots once armor goes.
-
That week we were working a lot on a light carronade double manticore combo, hoping the light carronade would get quick raspberries, we would of brought it but then we came up with our harpoon strategy.
-
Raspberries? You mean butt soup.
It has always frustrated me that there aren't enough hits from either carronade to really make that shatter effective.
-
I have a suggestion for improving the balance of guns that may not be popular with veteran players. I have only been playing for a week though so I fully accept that I could be wrong or it is not the direction people want the game to go in.
I would slightly normalise the weapon damage against different components matrix. That is to say, taking flak for example, increase its effect against armour but reduce its ability against exposed hull. Currently, there are a lot of guns available, but it doesn't really feel like you have much choice if you want to be competitive. I am finding the gat/flak combo to be too effective to leave behind and try something more interesting.
It could be argued that this lowers the skill cap because at the moment it is vital that you chose the right gun for the job and the captain brings that gun to bare. Such a change would lessen the importance of this decision making process. Personally, I don't think it does reduce the skill cap; I don't think choosing the right gun to shoot at the right component is as an important skill has engaging in the correct manor and range for the type of guns being used by you and your opponent. Currently I feel the damage multipliers are just a little too large and too many guns are counter intuitively poor in too many situations, I am not advocating drastic changes.
The main benefit as I see it would be to improve diversity among the ship load outs. I know that there are very successful exceptions, but most successful ships seem to be using the same guns. The worst thing is new players getting grief for not running with the "correct" set up. New players are the lifeblood of any game and such elitism very off putting.
Anyway, these are my thoughts after limited play time. My aim with this post was not to insist that my ideas are the best and the game should be changed to cater for me, but rather spark some more debate on the issue.
Thanks for reading!
-
I would slightly normalise the weapon damage against different components matrix. That is to say, taking flak for example, increase its effect against armour but reduce its ability against exposed hull. Currently, there are a lot of guns available, but it doesn't really feel like you have much choice if you want to be competitive. I am finding the gat/flak combo to be too effective to leave behind and try something more interesting.
While gat/flak might be one of the most direct approach to getting kills, it certainly isn't the only option. I haven't ran a gat/flak on my pyra for....quite awhile.
It could be argued that this lowers the skill cap because at the moment it is vital that you chose the right gun for the job and the captain brings that gun to bare. Such a change would lessen the importance of this decision making process.
And that pretty much sums up why I disagree with the idea of making all the guns average at roughly everything. And not just from a skill level, but also a tactical one. Currently, you can come up with plenty of strategies with the many guns available. Team strategy with both your crew and fellow captains opens a lot of possibility. I think the gat/flak is so prominent because it's a very direct way to be self-sufficient. Some strategies involve 2-3 boats working together to achieve kills rather than everyone fending for themselves. Problem is that getting total strangers to listen to you is hard on the internet, lol.
You're welcome to join any of my matches to see that gat/flak is not your only option to win, and that pyramidions aren't an invincible force taking over the galaxy. They have their place of course, but you don't always need a gat/flak boat to take on another gat/flak.
Thanks for posting your thoughts though. I try to offer my disagreement in the nicest way possible.
-
In response to Zill, granted I still use a gat, but I'm getting more aquainted with using a mortar...why not? Probably wind up ramming you in a Pyramidion anyways, might as well go for max DPS.
Even a gat-gat pyramidion can be brutal in happenstance...imagine that ship tearing out your armour while a hwatcha fish disables you and a flak fish snipes you....
You can try to focus onto the Flak fish to take out the massive damage, but you'd still have the insane disability power of the hwatcha that would be covering them, and toppled with a double gat pyarmidion...well....
you won't have fun.
Still keeping my Carronade-Flame Squid, though...flaregun back.
-
Ummm WHAT? 2 LJ's rip hull armor faster than 2 gats can! not to mention every permahull shot takes ~ 95 damage! I'm sorry but to bring the lumber in line it needs to lose 2 shells! it penalizes you for missing. and rewards you for hitting.
Congratulations! We have our new medium piercing weapon!
Before, the LJ only had 4 shots. However, this was increased because most players could not hit with the LJ before their clip ran out. The first few shots were always used as gauging ones. I don't have plans changing this because it doesn't seem like a lot of other players are using the LJ in this manner be it difficulty or what. Until it becomes an issue, when a lot of players are abusing it, then there is no reason for me to change it.
Until then, I applaud your skill with it and please continue to ruin people's days with it.
=============================================================================
=============================================================================
Can we move seriously in-depth meta discussions to another thread? Please? I know it's hard but I want this thread to be clean. Meaning if there are a lot of replies that means I'm fucking up somewhere. So seeing my inbox pile up with notification emails makes me poop my pants. I love the discussion that y'all are having but it's getting too off topic for my purposes.
Here is what to do:
—If someone posts a balance concern and there are fewer than 3 replies addressing that specific concern (not counting me) then please go ahead and post your thoughts
—If you see that a concern has more than 3 comments towards it, please spawn a new thread and post a link to it.
This is the exact reason why I wanted threaded and collapsible forums like Reddit. Alas, I am not in charge of managing the forums so it's not my call. So please respect the brevity of this thread. It makes my life easier to hunt down your actual concerns. 14 pages is a lot of stuff to read.
=============================================================================
=============================================================================
I would slightly normalise the weapon damage against different components matrix.
Regardless if old players like it a lot (for the record I do a lot of things old players don't like), I don't think I will normalize the damage matrix. It was rather normalized in previous versions but over many many iterations and live testing since the release of the game, we have arrived here. In fact, drastically skewed damages is what I think the proper thing to do is in a first pass for damage matrices. It makes balance easier and more clear, weapons don't tend to overlap in rolls, and potentially allows for more depth and build choices.
On top of the new ship movement model, I think there are enough options at play. Again, in order to kill a ship a Gatling is the most obvious choice (lack of piercing already noted). The next obvious pair is Heavy Flak. And in traditional deathmatch, especially in tournament play, players will use this build (or swap gat for Field Gun) and stay at distance. It is risk averse.
Other game modes and casual play in general will facilitate more risk and therefore stranger builds.
-
Thanks for posting your thoughts though. I try to offer my disagreement in the nicest way possible.
Thanks for your reply. As I said, I am reasonably new this game and therefore I join random groups rather than organised teams. I can see weapon selection being more diverse when you have a team strategy, but for random games it is very important to be self sufficient which often seems to translate as gat/flak. I can fully appreciate your point of view and admit that it is one I might share if I played in your meta.
Regardless if old players like it a lot (for the record I do a lot of things old players don't like), I don't think I will normalize the damage matrix. It was rather normalized in previous versions but over many many iterations and live testing since the release of the game, we have arrived here. In fact, drastically skewed damages is what I think the proper thing to do is in a first pass for damage matrices. It makes balance easier and more clear, weapons don't tend to overlap in rolls, and potentially allows for more depth and build choices.
Thanks for your answer. As a newish player I don't have the benefit of having tried the earlier versions with more normalised damage and if those versions were not as good or diverse then I accept that. I still think there could be some benefit to a very very slight normalisation of the matrix, especially for newer players (that do not understand how the matrix works). I certainly would not like to see the matrix to be further skewed since many new captains will find themselves in situations where their guns are ineffective and this leads to frustration.
However it is normal for these games to change around and for balance to improve. This is in my opinion a very good game and further skewing the damage matrix is not going to ruin it for me at all!
-
Yeah moderating and discussing in these threads is a nightmare. We really should split more off into their individual gun or question threads.
-
I don't know if this is the right thread for this but, does the heavy carronade actually shoot like a shotgun?
When I was playing with it I couldn't tell if the projectiles just spread too much to hit or if they just kinda vanished after a set distance.
-
Mechanicaly it's Raycast like Gattling, but it indeed shoots like shootgun - might want to try heavy to decrease spread at range (reduses max range, but you'll not probably miss anyway at max range). both carrorades have relatively short range (450m ?)
-
This is what is throwing me. The hitmarkers from the carronades don't really spread with range. At point blank its one big hitmarker at ~400 meters its still one big hitmarker. I don't have a huge amount of experience with the gun so I dunno if it's supposed to be shooting slugs or buckshot.
-
I'm with Ofiach. The number of carronade projectiles seems way too low. It makes the shatter aspect of it pretty worthless, even with heavy rounds loaded, but the shatter is nonexistant without heavy because there aren't enough hits to run a chance of getting components.
-
Before, the LJ only had 4 shots. However, this was increased because most players could not hit with the LJ before their clip ran out. The first few shots were always used as gauging ones. I don't have plans changing this because it doesn't seem like a lot of other players are using the LJ in this manner be it difficulty or what. Until it becomes an issue, when a lot of players are abusing it, then there is no reason for me to change it.
Until then, I applaud your skill with it and please continue to ruin people's days with it.
This post is aimed at Awkm in particular, though anybody should feel free to reply to address issues within. Also please note, I mean no offense to anyone with what I'm about to say.
The gist of what Awkm said strikes me as "People were bitching that they couldn't hit shit with the Lumberjack so we increased the clip count to compensate for their poor aiming ability."
At a glance, the Lumberjack feels and operates like a long-range balloon-popping weapon. Meant to shred an enemy ship's balloon, it more than excels at its job. However, that's not the problem. The problem comes into play once your ship's balloon has been popped by said Lumberjack and the ship continues to hover just beyond the arming distance for the weapon and keep popping your balloon the moment it's repaired.
This leads into the ever-frustrating scenario of bouncing around on the ground, virtually helpless, until you either die or an allied ship saves you, given they haven't also had their balloon popped or aren't otherwise engaged with an enemy ship. Not to mention that once the balloon is down, the Lumberjack easily begins stripping away the armor on your ship, sending all the Engineers on board into repair mode which, as I've previously stated, virtually disables you from fighting back.
Now, along the same path of disabling an enemy ship, dual Hwacha Galleons can wreak total havoc on an enemy ship's guns with a single barrage. However, unlike the Lumberjack, Hwachas deal almost no armor damage but can just about insta-gib permahull while the Lumberjack can rip through balloon, armor, and permahull with relative ease.
The difference comes from the fact once the balloon is down, a captain only needs to keep their ship out of the firing arcs of the ship with a disabled balloon. Then on top of that, the damage from the Lumberjack's shots transfer into armor, then into permahull. Meaning a single Lumberjack can hit for upwards of 600-700 damage with a full clip. The Hwacha, on the other hand, only really excels in destroying weapons and engines. It doesn't transfer damage that fast to the armor or hull.
Getting to the point here..
Using the numbers on the website, we can agree the Lumberjack deals 300 x 1.8 (540) flechette damage and 50 x 0.2 (10) shatter damage. This means it has a total balloon damage of 550. This means that before, with four shells, the Lumberjack had a total of 2,200 damage versus balloons. After the buff to six shells, the Lumberjack now deals 3,300 damage versus balloons.
This means that there are two major choices to bring the weapon back in line with the damage it had pre-buff..
Option A) Reduce the Lumberjack's flechette damage to 200
Option B) Revert the Lumberjack back to four shells in a clip
TL;DR - Lumberjack was a weapon that required skill to use, people lacked the skill, complained because they didn't want to use a less skill-intensive weapon and got the weapon changed into a state of overpowered proportions.
FIX IT
-
Been using the LJ on a goldfish for the past few days just to see how it feels... while it's good, it's be no means OP (or, at least not any more than it ever was). Even if you get balloon popped, it takes a pretty sizable amount of time to actually completely down an enemy ship with it alone. If you're also hitting with other guns I guess there could be some difference, but there's various combinations of guns that could be considered as pretty OP as well.
-
Take any gun in a vaccuum and they wont kill anything by themselves, except for a carronade or a LJ. The LJ is alot better at it though. The carronade is naturally gimped by having very short range. (not getting into it not pointing down :P)
Even the carronades damage potential is nowhere near as high as a LJ's. Also as I was going into on the carronade that weapons disable ability seems very weak because it shoots a slug and not buckshot.
But back on the LJ, its balloon damage potential of 3300 when balloons (still wondering about this number) have 1200 hp is insanity! you can literally miss half the clip. 3 shots is still 1650 damage, 1 Mallet hit ain't saving that balloon and taking it to 4 shots.
This is ground I've gone over before so it's nice to see other people mentioning it. It's raw damage is far above anything else.
I also have to agree with Belcards take on awkms post. I had already ruffled enough feathers there so I didn't jump on it but Belcards take is spot on.
@Mach.... you read my mind on where I was going with that line of reasoning. The carronade seems very very goofy in its fire mechanics I don't understand why it even has shatter when it seems to just launch one big slug.
-
The Carronade is a raycast weapon and as I understand launches a number of simulated projectiles within a cone for a limited range. Damage is calculated on components based on the number of projectiles that make contact however due to the large (40) number of projectiles hit markers are not shown for all hits.
As far as the Lumberjack goes, everything that can be said has been said 10 times. Some people want it nerfed, others do not. There's not much more to say than that however if people feel they'd like to express more on this Isstrongly encourage they start a new thread specifically for that topic.
-
I've started a lumberjack discussion thread. Please post your concerns/lack thereof over there.
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1217.0.html
-
The Carronade is a raycast weapon and as I understand launches a number of simulated projectiles within a cone for a limited range. Damage is calculated on components based on the number of projectiles that make contact however due to the large (40) number of projectiles hit markers are not shown for all hits.
Couple questions here good sir.
Where are you getting that projectile number from?
Also I can understand not showing all of them, but what is the reasoning behind just showing one big gotcha hitmarker?
The second one is probably more of an Awkm question but yeah. The hitmarker is almost always just one or two big markers. Why not at least show markers on every component that got tagged so maybe a gunner can know "hey I got his two turns with that last shot lemme put my next shot right into those engines to wreck em."
-
I will agree that the eruption of snowflakes that would be caused when all the alleged projectiles were hitmarked would be disturbing.
The issue isn't with the graphical representation as much as the fact the carronade doesn't wreck anything but balloons in any real capacity, despite stats suggesting it does. Whether there's one projectile or 40, the mechanics are the core issue. That's my own opinion, though.
-
The issue isn't with the graphical representation as much as the fact the carronade doesn't wreck anything but balloons in any real capacity, despite stats suggesting it does.
The problem here is that the wepon has too much spread to be reliable against enything else. It's possible with heavy clip if you are in their face to destroy larger components like weapons, but it's not what you can rely on. It's relatively easy to destroy hull armor with it..
-
I stopped playing with carronade after the Nerf but I distinctly remember having Shinkurex on my blender fish using heavy clip to snipe out any enemies components one by one with high success.
I've also been on the receiving end of it more than once.
-
Don't tell me you guys want to nerf the blender too ;/
They already nerfed the hull armor modifier for flechette, as well as the firing arc.
Smollett is also correct to say that it can hit guns. It's very much a secondary thing, but breaking a heavy gun staring at your face can be life/death.
-
I was more along the lines of wanting to be able to see everything it hit. as it stands I don't see how it could be anywhere near 40 projectiles when I can tag a junker from ~150 meters and only get a hull and balloon hitmarker.
I'm not saying it's over or under powered I just want a little bit more feedback from the hitmarkers on it. Not to mention knowing where this 40 projectile number is coming from.
-
Hit markers: one hit marker is shown per gun per component hit, scaled according to the total damage dealt to that component by that gun in the last quarter second.
At one point in beta we had individual hit markers for every ray on the carronades &c, but the number made it impossible to actually judge how much damage you were doing to different components or between different guns. That system also sucked up an inordinate amount of bandwidth during firefights.
-
So it really is only hitting 1 or 2 components? I would figure blasting a junkers hull from the side would at least show a hitmarker on the guns and not just the balloon and hull.
I guess I'm just not understanding how 40 projectiles could spread so little. Or is this more a cap from the hitmarker system?
I could just be expecting too much of a spread from the gun also.
-
If you are using heavy, then it really shrinks that spread. Try charged from far out and watch a boat light up.
-
Hello, still relatively new to the game here, though I've played extensively since I hoped in.
I certainly don't have any view on the past deeds of weapons but I've tried all of them both as a gunner and a captain, here's my thoughts in a nutshell
-small weapons :
harpoon : tried it whenever it was available on a ship, added it on my setup a couple time. People seems finding a bit hard to hit with it, I suppose it's because of relative inexperience with it, so I can't really tell about the damage. The tow line on itself doesn't seem to control much, I think it can be a good thing only if you want a quick little fellow to stay with you.
flare gun : encoutered a bit, can't say much about damage. utility is perceptible on some maps
These two utility guns are really rare, but it's certainly mainly because of the lack of gun parts, so it's always hard to put one. Though some ships have arguably guns that are seldom used, so it' doesn't hurt much.
mercury/small flack/small mortar/small caronade/minigun/artemis : I think all these weapons are fine and play their respective role quite well.
flame thrower : I haven't lived through the day of infamous fire damage, currently, even if it's handy as a side gun, it doesn't seem to provide anything stellar. Artemis or caronade are good disablers that have a direct impact on crucial parts. As an escape weapon combined with tar, maybe... I dunno if there is a solution without making it overpowered. Maybe tweak damage matrix of fire to make it a bit more specialized.
carrousel : Just never seen the impact of this weapon. Seems to fit a niche between artemis and small flack? The projectile have some nasty dispersion and the overall effect is hard to judge. I don't see what is expected from this gun. Maybe it could work as a mini manticore, with more of a "barrage" mechanic.
- medium weapons
Lumberjack : I respect the weapon though it needs a decent gunner. Seems to lead to a bit boring gameplay, alas, as you want to stay away and pound a ballon deprived ship.
Twin caronade : a fun choice, less safe than the lumberjack but definitively has a role
Manticore : honestly this one seems overused, but it's easy to understand why, for it's the best disabler, does decent damage overall, needs only a small window of opportunity. Plus game wise it's impressive and fun to use, as no over weapon gives the "barrage" feeling. It's no wonder most goldfishes I see are sporting it, as it crippling power make it the "best" lone medium weapon.
Typhon : I have an issue with this one. It's the gun with the nearest "old artillery" feel, and it's quite hard to use at a distance with relative speeds. And when you manage to get your hits, you can't expect much unless the armor has been removed for you. So I guess in the hand of a decent gunner, and if you're running a combo with another ship/armor shreading guns available. Issue is the hull will often be removed when ships are closer and then you'd miss the secondary. I've seen and performed kills with a typhon, but it needs a perfect window for use. All over medium weapons have a crippling effect that this one lacks. In the end, it boils down to the feeling that you've not granted much for those difficult long distance shots, whereas with a mercury I get the feeling I'm really putting the enemy through an hard time, wrecking armor and parts in a precise manner. And if you end up in medium range, why not use manticora or lumberjacks anyway?
Of course it may be all a biased feeling and specialized weapons are more powerful when used with combined fleets, but most of the games are quite chaotic. I like to experiment with weapons but so far typhon and carousels are kinda letdowns for me.
-
The carronade hits multiple components at a time. As Watchmaker said:
Hit markers: one hit marker is shown per gun per component hit, scaled according to the total damage dealt to that component by that gun in the last quarter second.
At one point in beta we had individual hit markers for every ray on the carronades &c, but the number made it impossible to actually judge how much damage you were doing to different components or between different guns. That system also sucked up an inordinate amount of bandwidth during firefights.
It's not 40 buck shots. It's something lower. But it doesn't matter since we can't display all the hitmarkers, therefore we don't tell you how many. Extraneous information.
The damage for the LJ was also more when it had 4 counts of ammo. The total damage output from one clip is entirely intentional.
Also, please keep in mind that we're actual human beings at Muse Games and we go out of our way to interact with our community because we value the time you spend with our work. We listen and we take into account what you say. So think about that before you post something. So thank you to everyone who posts something in the vein of "here are some thoughts that I'd like to share with you." At the end of the day, it's up to me to figure out what makes the most sense to do that won't blow the game up.
-
Typhon : I have an issue with this one. It's the gun with the nearest "old artillery" feel, and it's quite hard to use at a distance with relative speeds. And when you manage to get your hits, you can't expect much unless the armor has been removed for you ... In the end, it boils down to the feeling that you've not granted much for those difficult long distance shots
As someone who's spent more time on this gun than is healthy, and who saw the horror of the Fjords tournament. There can be no doubt the re-balance was necessary, I do however have two questions I'd like to pose to awkm and would very much like him to respond to:
1) Do you still think the arm time is necessary on the typhon now that we have seen how the new armour mod behaves in practice?
2) Given the above armour mod and the difficulty hitting at distance, would you ever consider bumping the maximum range of the gun?
Personally i know my biggest frustration is the range rather than the arm time, though i bring up the arm time because i honestly don't know if its needed.
-
I think I probably said this before but I actually find the arming time an interesting and fun mechanic for the flak since you can help protect yourself from this giant gun by going nose to nose with it.
That being said, for balance purposes, I do think the arming time should be reduced.
More range would be interesting, would definitely make the gun better than it is now.
Carronade projectiles... Must be 20, kicking myself since that info used to be public and I can't remember anymore and never wrote it down.
-
Also awkm thanks for taking the time to have and read a thread like this.
This game is awesome but it's really the Muse team itself that's kept me enjoying the game for as long as I have.
-
Muse as a whole have been pretty great that's for sure.
-
As someone who's spent more time on this gun than is healthy, and who saw the horror of the Fjords tournament. There can be no doubt the re-balance was necessary, I do however have two questions I'd like to pose to awkm and would very much like him to respond to:
1) Do you still think the arm time is necessary on the typhon now that we have seen how the new armour mod behaves in practice?
2) Given the above armour mod and the difficulty hitting at distance, would you ever consider bumping the maximum range of the gun?
Personally i know my biggest frustration is the range rather than the arm time, though i bring up the arm time because i honestly don't know if its needed.
Still feels like a niche weapon somehow. When I first manned it, my though was that it was a large mercury, but it wasn't. Actually, both the visual and the physics of the weapon call for a piercing type... when actually it does the opposite. I haven't known the "horror"; I guess it was a time when battles were decided by afar? From what I've seen now, it's not the case. The reload time, the movement restriction and the fire rate seems to make the Typhon below closer range weapons, as it should be. And if I'm at mid-long range and can hit, why not use a lumberjack?
-
As someone who's spent more time on this gun than is healthy, and who saw the horror of the Fjords tournament. There can be no doubt the re-balance was necessary, I do however have two questions I'd like to pose to awkm and would very much like him to respond to:
1) Do you still think the arm time is necessary on the typhon now that we have seen how the new armour mod behaves in practice?
2) Given the above armour mod and the difficulty hitting at distance, would you ever consider bumping the maximum range of the gun?
Personally i know my biggest frustration is the range rather than the arm time, though i bring up the arm time because i honestly don't know if its needed.
Still feels like a niche weapon somehow. When I first manned it, my though was that it was a large mercury, but it wasn't. Actually, both the visual and the physics of the weapon call for a piercing type... when actually it does the opposite. I haven't known the "horror"; I guess it was a time when battles were decided by afar? From what I've seen now, it's not the case. The reload time, the movement restriction and the fire rate seems to make the Typhon below closer range weapons, as it should be. And if I'm at mid-long range and can hit, why not use a lumberjack?
Killing power.
You hit a ship without hull armour with the Typhon flak, it's gonna go away quickly.
You hit a ship without hull armour with a Lumberjack, it's gonna have the ability to kill you still...probably get it's hull back up before your next clip goes in...and by then (if they were good/able) they'd be on you and stick inside that 110 min mark (ammo pending.) While the Typhon...they'll probably be dead.
As with the arming time and such, I would wonder what would happen if we went back to the old numbers, but kept the arming time.
-
Yah, one thing I keep seeing over and over again that is becoming a problem are goldfish with hwachas on the front. So many matches I play, goldfish just charge straight at you, hit with hwachas to cripple you and then ram for hull damage. If they are using any kind of teamwork, the other teammate just hits you with some kind of hull damage/armor penetrating combo. This hwacha/ramming combo to completely disable a ship is just getting old, i could possibly see it as a last ditch effort, but no, it's become a main strategy. Especially paired with the goldfish, because it is kind of the medium ship, it can out speed most ships so avoiding it is nigh impossible. And even if you were to try and maneuver, if they get any where near you, your finished because hwacha disables everything in one shot. All of your engines or an entire side of you ships guns.
Enough ranting.
Hwacha needs to be balanced, there is a reason just about every ship that has heavy weapons is laden with them.
Perhaps less splash damage, could help, so that the entire side of your ship or all of your engines don't get knocked out immediately unless the rockets actually hit these things.
-
Yeah the splash is annoying, especially when you notice even weapon that aren't facing the hit zone are destroyed. For instance, often when facing an incoming goldfish I prepare to turn my junker to use the side that wasn't facing it... only to notice weapons on both sides were disabled...
And firing wise, even if it needs some little experience, it's ability to unload all at once is actually a pretty hefty advantage. Other weapons requires a valid line of sight for the duration of their clip.
It's probably better to fix it a bit rather than starting an arm's race with other medium weapons, though.
-
I have never had a problem beating a team with a Hwacha fish.
They lack a lot of dps. Often I'll just outright ignore it and team up against their teammate. They may disable one ship momentarily but heir teammate will be dead before they reload and my engineers (always bring three with spanners against a good hwacha opponent) will already have guns up and firing for a 2v1.
Alternatively in a 1v1 tell your Artemis/Mercury/Gat gunner to shoot out the Hwacha; by the time it shows up for the ram it'll be getting shredded to pieces and defenseless
-
I have never had a problem beating a team with a Hwacha fish.
They lack a lot of dps. Often I'll just outright ignore it and team up against their teammate. They may disable one ship momentarily but heir teammate will be dead before they reload and my engineers (always bring three with spanners against a good hwacha opponent) will already have guns up and firing for a 2v1.
Alternatively in a 1v1 tell your Artemis/Mercury/Gat gunner to shoot out the Hwacha; by the time it shows up for the ram it'll be getting shredded to pieces and defenseless
In a 2v1 scenario, you are right that is not a problem. But let's say I don't have a good team mate, which happens from time to time. 1v1 is a different animal. Given plenty of time yes, you are right we have a Merc on the front of our Junkers, and we can usually take it out if they try and play chicken. But if the Goldfish captain has any sense, he won't do that, he wants to go for max damage and hit us in the rear for engines, or sides for guns. Ambush for the ram. I suppose 3 engineers might have to do the trick. However it is kind of sad, that simply because an opponent has a Hwacha (and if they can they will) that Gunners pretty much become useless.
-
Gunners are useless on the Junker whether anybody has a hwachafish or not (somebody from MNS'll probably come to argue that :P). If your ship has a gat, you'll have loads and loads of time to take their hwacha down during reloads. Not to mention that the hwacha doesn't do enough armour damage for a ram to be effective.
-
Part of this game is adapting to what your opponent brings but to be honest there hasn't been much purpose for a gunner regardless on my Junker for a while.
Don't forget that a Junker excels at dodging. Chute vent, buffed balloon or kerosene easily allow you to dodge most of the hwacha at range. Assuming you have a chaingun on your broadside, any chaingunner worth their salt will shoot out the manticore before it gets close enough to cripple you. As for ambushing, it doesn't really matter what they're shooting with if you let them sneak up behind you; giving any opponent that much advantage is usually a death.sentence.
Disabling weapons are always the toughest to deal with when you're new since it's rare for new pilots to have a crew organized enough to quickly deal with it.
-
Part of this game is adapting to what your opponent brings but to be honest there hasn't been much purpose for a gunner regardless on my Junker for a while.
Don't forget that a Junker excels at dodging. Chute vent, buffed balloon or kerosene easily allow you to dodge most of the hwacha at range. Assuming you have a chaingun on your broadside, any chaingunner worth their salt will shoot out the manticore before it gets close enough to cripple you. As for ambushing, it doesn't really matter what they're shooting with if you let them sneak up behind you; giving any opponent that much advantage is usually a death.sentence.
Disabling weapons are always the toughest to deal with when you're new since it's rare for new pilots to have a crew organized enough to quickly deal with it.
Our pilot is pretty good for how new he is. It seems as though we will just need to practice disabling the Hwachas ASAP, like you said adaptation is key. I think if we can get killing Hwachas down, then we will be a force to be reckoned with. I'll also have to convince the gunners in the group I play with, that they need to look into putting down the guns, and picking up a wrench.
-
Gunners are useless on the Junker whether anybody has a hwachafish or not (somebody from MNS'll probably come to argue that :P). If your ship has a gat, you'll have loads and loads of time to take their hwacha down during reloads. Not to mention that the hwacha doesn't do enough armour damage for a ram to be effective.
You guys really ask for it sometimes don't you? We also know where this argument goes, therefore I'll simply say gunners are not useless on any ship.
-
You guys really ask for it sometimes don't you? We also know where this argument goes, therefore I'll simply say gunners are not useless on any ship.
Well of course the gunners are never useless, they fill their niche. But I think currently it does seem that for many ships the 1 captain 3 engineer load out is simply better. With engineer being able to have one type of special type of ammo, there really aren't that many benefits to being a gunner. The gunner does have the advantage of being able to change ammo given the situation, however this rarely as valuable as having an individual engineer for the balloon, hull, and guns. When a your ship gets hit with a good hwacha barrage, having that extra engineer to help get everything back online is nice. I don't want to start a flame war here, this is simply constructive criticism from personal experience.
-
There is already a discussion about the gunners usefulness here:
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,410.msg6390.html#msg6390
Let's please stay on topic about guns balance on this thread.
Thanks,
~Shink
-
Yah, one thing I keep seeing over and over again that is becoming a problem are goldfish with hwachas on the front. So many matches I play, goldfish just charge straight at you, hit with hwachas to cripple you and then ram for hull damage. If they are using any kind of teamwork, the other teammate just hits you with some kind of hull damage/armor penetrating combo. This hwacha/ramming combo to completely disable a ship is just getting old, i could possibly see it as a last ditch effort, but no, it's become a main strategy. Especially paired with the goldfish, because it is kind of the medium ship, it can out speed most ships so avoiding it is nigh impossible. And even if you were to try and maneuver, if they get any where near you, your finished because hwacha disables everything in one shot. All of your engines or an entire side of you ships guns.
Enough ranting.
Hwacha needs to be balanced, there is a reason just about every ship that has heavy weapons is laden with them.
Perhaps less splash damage, could help, so that the entire side of your ship or all of your engines don't get knocked out immediately unless the rockets actually hit these things.
The Hwacha is balanced. It's hilariously ineffective as a lone weapon, because it deals pathetic damage to armor. A Hwacha + Ram combo will not be getting through any armor unless it's a Squid, maybe a Goldfish.
It has horrible sustained presence. Its disabling capability is countered by having competent engineers with Spanners.
Any ship with a Hwacha will lack that much lethality. And Hwachas are just as vulnerable to being disabled; Artemises and Mercuries can do this at a greater range.
It has drawbacks, it has counters; it's balanced. The only reason it's common is because it's easy to use.
-
The main thing that is OP about the situation Charlemagne describes is the teamwork aspect, not the gun itself. I have flown double gat Pyra with an Hwacha fish ally and we got kills very quickly. Individually our ships are not very powerful but working together we represent a major threat. The same could be said about any well coordinated team. However since the game is about teamwork nerfing game mechanics that encourage would be a bad idea.
I think it is possible to kill a ship with the Hwacha if you can get two or three full volleys of burst ammo at point blank range. With the increased clip size the Hwacha will bring the armor down slightly faster than it can be repaired.
-
Double whatever with piercing/explosive combo can kill anything fast, especialy if it's in 2v1.
Havacha alone is a nuisance. I've just today spent a game on a hwacha-fish. Match involved me firering at a pyra for about 100 points worth on scraps, at about 100M. Since I was engi and only had heavy clip I wasn't getting thru hull armor and only kept it crippled. Hwacha on Goldfish is so common olny becouse it's only atlernative is Carronade as a viable weapon (I'm sorry but flak and LJ are niche weapons on goldfish). Hwacha was broken a long while back in 1.1.4 when rebuild was nerfed, it's spread, aoe, damage were buffed. Hawacha is balanced. Please transfer Hawacha tactical tips and discussions to a separate topic.
-
I am probably about to sound incredibly nooby, but when are carronade's (either light or heavy) preferable to anything else? I've never used or seen them used to any great effect..
-
I am probably about to sound incredibly nooby, but when are carronade's (either light or heavy) preferable to anything else? I've never used or seen them used to any great effect..
They severely cripple the enemy's balloons, extremely effective close range since you will usually be firing them from above the enemy ship where their guns can't get you. I have seen and used, both as a captain on my ship and as a gunner firing one to great effect and if your teammate(s) is not asleep, you can make short work of your enemies.
Usually seen on Goldfishes and less so on Galleons and I think I've seen one Spire use them once, thought definately not recommended if you're not good.
(No idea about light carronades though since I haven't seen them all that often.)
-
I am probably about to sound incredibly nooby, but when are carronade's (either light or heavy) preferable to anything else? I've never used or seen them used to any great effect..
The main target of any carronade is the balloon. You get in close and in your enemy's blindspots, and disable them. The secondary goals of the carronade is armor destruction, followed by gun breaking (thanks to a small amount of shatter damage). Remember that when the balloon is down, any damage done to it is then transferred to the hull armor/permahull.
Killing people with a lone carronade can take a long time, and usually involves the ground helping you, however on a heavy carronade, kills are entirely possible. They are never super fast though unless they are already battered.
-
1.2.1 just dropped.
I am expecting complaints regarding fire being OP again.
COME AT ME BRO.
-
I am awaiting the banshee spam ver 2.
-
I am awaiting the banshee spam ver 2.
Friedumb, Bdr, and I ran a triple banshee pyramidion with incendiary rounds last night after the patch for the fun of it. We won.
-
Oh god, I am trembling in my seat.
And it's my own damn fault.
-
Oh god, I am trembling in my seat.
And it's my own damn fault.
Lol for once it's not my fault! on topic, I was using the banshee on my junker last night, and I didn't really notice anything spectacular, but then again, I was not on the receiving end.
-
NERF BANSHEE SOUND!!!!!
The gun is great fun to use now and is a complete pain to deal with, it actually feels like "hey a banshee we should deal with those fires" instead of "hey a banshee... well who cares"
But oh my dear lord, the whistling...... in 3v3..... all junker..... all banshee matches..... I had nightmares about whistling fire......
Seriously though, that guns noise is so much louder than everything else, even a junker running 3 (front and one on each side) was molesting my eardrums.
-
Personally I think the sound of them adds to the fun. :P
-
I'm sitting here all day, waiting for poop to hit the fan, and all you're talking about is how dreadfully annoying these things sound?!!? Thank the heavens!
- The gun is called Banshee for a good reason.
- There's also an option slider for that.
In all seriousness, though, this seems to be a decent place to be at :P I hope we stay here.
-
I can get it started if you want.
BNSHEE OP NEEDZ NERFZ NOW
But in all seriousness, I doubt that it'll be a major problem. The banshee needed a boost to be really viable again, and I don't see these changes making it go out of hand.
-
BNSHEE SOUND OP NEEDZ NERFZ NOW
Fixed that for you sundie! Seriously though! Every other gun sounds great and then it's just like having Flava Flav pop out and scream "yeah boi!!!!" right into your eardrum! Ok maybe it isn't that bad....
-
Flava Flav pop out and scream "yeah boi!!!!" right into your eardrum! Ok maybe it isn't that bad....
If you've never doubted anything you've said or done in your life...
YOU CAN START NOW.
-
New personal goal: find and modify the banshee sound file to an mp3 of Flava Flav shouting.
-
New personal goal: find and modify the banshee sound file to an mp3 of Flava Flav shouting.
If you succeed please oh please upload a video of the result.
-
Hey awkm; could we possibly have the carronades aim a bit farther down again? I feel they add a lot of depth to the game due to how different their mechanics and play style are from other weapons in the game.
-
I know I have spoken poorly about the change in the arc of carronades previously, but after working with it since the change, I don't see issue with it's current state.
Yea, it's harder to position, but the new way of using it is pretty fun, and just needs a little getting used to.
-
Hey awkm; could we possibly have the carronades aim a bit farther down again? I feel they add a lot of depth to the game due to how different their mechanics and play style are from other weapons in the game.
How far down do you feel they should be able to aim? From my observation, the arc change was designed to give the guy they're camping a chance to get out of a helpless situation and/or evade the situation in the first place through maneuver.
-
It should be able to aim far enough down that you can still balloon lock people but with more difficulty than previously.
-
It should be able to aim far enough down that you can still balloon lock people but with more difficulty than previously.
So, you mean exactly how it is now? Just trying to get an idea just how low here.
Until the Manta comes around, all boats have their balloon on top of them. You can stare straight at it with a carronade and still be out of effective arc of some guns, not to mention blind spots.
Is it more you want to see it made easier so more people use it?
-
But Carronades are already easy to use and pretty effective at that. Or is this some sort of joke I didn't understand?..
Also I will try the new Banshee, had it used against me on my Junker in a match last time and it was pretty effective at keeping people busy.
-
But Carronades are already easy to use and pretty effective at that. Or is this some sort of joke I didn't understand?..
Carronades recently had a nerf in which their downward arc was heavily reduced, which allowed for a ship to camp high above an enemy while continuously taking their balloon, effectively preventing the enemy from doing anything except ramming into the ground. There's been some debate on the carronade since then -- on one hand, carronades are meant to target balloons, so it makes sense you'd be able to aim down from above; on the other hand, it was a little unfair how easy it was to cripple an enemy ship once you got into position. Now that the change has been out for a while, I'm okay with the update. It's still very possible to take out enemy balloons, just not quite as easy to totally cripple them.
-
But Carronades are already easy to use and pretty effective at that. Or is this some sort of joke I didn't understand?..
Carronades recently had a nerf in which their downward arc was heavily reduced, which allowed for a ship to camp high above an enemy while continuously taking their balloon, effectively preventing the enemy from doing anything except ramming into the ground. There's been some debate on the carronade since then -- on one hand, carronades are meant to target balloons, so it makes sense you'd be able to aim down from above; on the other hand, it was a little unfair how easy it was to cripple an enemy ship once you got into position. Now that the change has been out for a while, I'm okay with the update. It's still very possible to take out enemy balloons, just not quite as easy to totally cripple them.
Ah, thanks for the info c:
Still, I think they are fine as is, they do considerable damage and you can still keep their balloon popped if you try a bit. Blanderfish is extremely effective with it if you also bring a Buffgineer on it to keep it buffed most of the time.
-
Carronades used to offer a pretty nice alternative to the straight out killing meta.
While they still work for this role to some degree, the increased difficulty for balloon locks makes them both unappealing for competitive and casual play generally speaking.
My thoughts are that due to their change they've seen a lot less use and it has narrowed the strategies commonly seen in play. I'm just an advocate for deeper and more varied viable gameplay. Muse has made more than enough weapons to achieve this, it's just about tweaking their balance ever so slightly so they are all viable; certainly not an easy task, but not insurmountable for the mighty awkm.
-
I actually have been using carronades as a disable/hullcrush weapon for the ramming achievements. Dual carro Pyra with greased rounds can do alot of hull damage, along with engine crippling. Not exactly "meta" but still fun.
-
In the past I have likened a good Blenderfish vs Galleon fight to bull riding, where the Blenderfish is the cowboy and the Galleon is the bull. The galleon is slow but just needs to a few seconds of inattention to gore the other guy. The blender fish has to be constantly adjusting and repositioning to stay in the safe area where his guns can hit but the Galleons guns can not. The patch just made that safe area smaller. To torture the metaphor, the bull can still be ridden but it is much harder since Awkm put grease on the reigns.
-
In the past I have likened a good Blenderfish vs Galleon fight to bull riding, where the Blenderfish is the cowboy and the Galleon is the bull. The galleon is slow but just needs to a few seconds of inattention to gore the other guy. The blender fish has to be constantly adjusting and repositioning to stay in the safe area where his guns can hit but the Galleons guns can not. The patch just made that safe area smaller. To torture the metaphor, the bull can still be ridden but it is much harder since Awkm put grease on the reigns.
I am a fan of metaphors. Well done.
-
In the past I have likened a good Blenderfish vs Galleon fight to bull riding, where the Blenderfish is the cowboy and the Galleon is the bull. The galleon is slow but just needs to a few seconds of inattention to gore the other guy. The blender fish has to be constantly adjusting and repositioning to stay in the safe area where his guns can hit but the Galleons guns can not. The patch just made that safe area smaller. To torture the metaphor, the bull can still be ridden but it is much harder since Awkm put grease on the reigns.
I'm shocked that no one's figured out what Chute Vent is for.
Seriously. Not only does it completely eliminate the problems caused by the nerf, it gives the added benefit of allowing the maneuver I've affectionately dubbed the "Chaos Dunk," in which you pop a balloon, position yourself above the enemy ship, and smash him into the ground repeatedly using Impact Bumpers and Chute Vent.
The Carronade might be dependent on a pilot tool, but I think the nerf was warranted. Could carronades use buffs elsewhere to compensate for the nerf? Perhaps. But I really like that adjustment, as it allows a lot of counterplay. I'd be loathe to see that nerf reverted, instead of trying another way to buff the carronade.
-
I play a very physical blenderfish and chute vent is definitely one of the main factors contributing to its success.
-
The bull fighting metaphor refereed to that sweet spot on a galleon's where you are parallel/slightly above the balloon and too close for the side guns to elevate high enough to engage you. Chute venting from that location will put your ship in reach of the galleon's guns, which is less than desirable. I guess if you want to take the metaphor a bit more literally the goldfish could actually sit on the galleon and apply ram damage.
-
In the past I have likened a good Blenderfish vs Galleon fight to bull riding, where the Blenderfish is the cowboy and the Galleon is the bull. The galleon is slow but just needs to a few seconds of inattention to gore the other guy. The blender fish has to be constantly adjusting and repositioning to stay in the safe area where his guns can hit but the Galleons guns can not. The patch just made that safe area smaller. To torture the metaphor, the bull can still be ridden but it is much harder since Awkm put grease on the reigns.
I'm shocked that no one's figured out what Chute Vent is for.
Seriously. Not only does it completely eliminate the problems caused by the nerf, it gives the added benefit of allowing the maneuver I've affectionately dubbed the "Chaos Dunk," in which you pop a balloon, position yourself above the enemy ship, and smash him into the ground repeatedly using Impact Bumpers and Chute Vent.
The Carronade might be dependent on a pilot tool, but I think the nerf was warranted. Could carronades use buffs elsewhere to compensate for the nerf? Perhaps. But I really like that adjustment, as it allows a lot of counterplay. I'd be loathe to see that nerf reverted, instead of trying another way to buff the carronade.
The term I've heard most for this is "Teabag of destiny". Mighta been Ofiach.
But Hamster, I think that's the point. The the balloon down, and then literally body-slam the damaged balloon from above (pinning them into the ground for bonus damage).
I like the new Carronade, it makes for more positioning. Position to me means more interesting game.
-
Mercury is being buffed next patch... WAIT, WAT? It's a really powerfull weapon, as all the tournamnets were won by 3/4 merc build. There is no need in buffing it, even the nerf might be needed.
-
I would agree that if it gets the penetration buff it should do basically nothing to actual hull health. On the flip side I'd like to see some explosive do a bit more armor damage and a bit less permahull damage so piercing becomes less of a necessity and more a specialized tool.
-
As a note, this thread is Balance for 1.2, not 1.3.
-
I do suppose we are getting ahead of ourselves.