Author Topic: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2  (Read 242235 times)

Offline Berserker

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2013, 08:59:18 pm »
I have found a very overpowered combination. If you are using the Manticore Heavy Hwacha along with Burst Rounds, you can take out multiple stations all in one fell swoop, and i mean MULTIPLE. Like, if you are using the goldfish, every station pretty much. I have tested it in multiple games and had it tested against me, and each time, the whole ship pretty much goes up in flames. I dont know if it is intentional, but jesus, it just seems broken.

Offline Nidh

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2013, 09:34:08 pm »
That' the Hwacha's job, but it can't kill anything without help from a small gun or your ally.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2013, 11:33:25 pm »
What I don't get from the carronade nerf (cause we needed one I guess?) is it just seems backwards. Why would I want an upward arc? Then the Hull is shielding the balloon and i'm pretty much being worthless. Then you have to remain level to keep the balloon locked, which kills a blenderfish as it only has that one front gun trying to lock it, and nothing to disable the inevitable gunfire from the enemy.

As Smollett has said, I didn't see a need to nerf it at all. And if anything, the change seems backwards. It needs a downward arc to be useful.

Offline MetaFive

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2013, 11:25:08 am »
I'm going to crosspost and refine my arguments from the Artemis thread if you all don't mind.

A carronade is a weapon that's stuck in an odd design niche; it needs to- practically by definition- be able to keep an enemy ship's balloon disabled even through repair attempts and ultimately does seek to kill the enemy ship by running it into the ground.  it was problematic for the same reason that the Artemis was pre-nerf and the Mercury was pre-spillover-fix;  You don't want to be able to have a kill-strategy that wins with minimal chance for interaction by the enemy ship. Its use in forcing disengagements was a an emergent use based on its ability to put the opponent out of a range where they can counterattack.

Not to say that it has only that use or that it should have only that use, mind, but that bit of definition needs to be taken into account. Even if you were using it primarly as a support weapon to force a ship out of engagement, it was still- if used as a dedicated offense- able to deny them the ability to engage until they broke on the proverbial rocks.

And Smollett- I love you right back, but most of the solutions you've offered are either means to delay the inevitable (Drogue chute only slows your descent and will not bring you level with your opponent and well-timed shots based around the rebuilds will hamstring your engineers' work) or simply nonsolutions (Hydrogen on a freshly-repaired balloon is a good way to give your enemy a leg up in breaking it and good luck getting the buff going in time)- using Kerosene to rush away/to a teammate is probably the best solution you've given and is certainly the most reliable one in actual combat, but it also potentially means that when you re-engage you're just going to start the cycle over and possibly end up in the same situation- not to mention it relies on your opponent not having a means to bridge the gap. I'd personally toss in "dive under the opponent's ship to shake their lock" as an option but even that one relies on the opposing captain not being able to see it coming/respond quickly- and, if they know what they're doing, it's a fairly easy maneuver to counter.

Let me clarify- I don't think the carronade is a "broken" strategy, and certainly not an overpowered one. But I do think that- due to the issues I'd discussed above- it's problematic, because it can severely reduce the level of interactivity between ships/players that makes GoI stand out so much in the first place. Making the carronade more interactive with the opponent in its use is hardly the worst way to approach the problem, even if it is- as you've all observed, especially regarding the ships that rely on the disabling tactic and the hit arc favoring the hull over the balloon- an incomplete solution. But the fact that it even offers a means of approach to the interactivity issue also means that it opens up new ways the weapon can be tweaked, balanced, and enhanced.

Offline Mattilald Anguisad

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2013, 12:00:19 pm »
Carrorade was a reat weapon but not an overpowered one (especcaily if you saw it comming). It required your full time commitment to an enemy, otherwise it was completely useless. During that time you were butt naked against his ally that should have been punding you from exposed behind.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2013, 02:03:01 pm »
Even after the carronade angle nerf the weapon remains a viable galleon/spire killer. The balloons on those ships are so high above the main gun deck that a squid or goldfish can park in the pocket level to the balloon but above the fire arc of non lumberjack medium guns and go to town. It is extreamly difficult to get in position and stay there, but it is possible. I see the nerf as a piloting challenge. I don't particularly like it since in a game of Vets the carronade primary weapon is very rarely a viable strategy, but I can see how newbies would get sick of getting stuffed into the ground with no way of retaliating.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2013, 03:24:54 pm »
It's like the fire nerf to me. I didn't really see a need to nerf it, so the fact it had been was kind of confusing to me. I'll even go so far to say that fire was more of an issue than carronades seemed to be. The trick was always first have a lot of altitude to begin with, and to get under the boat trying to lock you down.

Of course, in something like a galleon, that's nigh impossible, but an unsupported Galleon is like sending a battleship in to fight a squadron of torpedo bombers alone. You coordinate and get past it. The range of the carronade alone is debilitating enough i thought, when compared to even a hwacha.

I realize its now a pilot's challenge, but I'm obviously missing why it needed to be made harder in the first place.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2013, 03:57:37 pm »
I listened to this talk on good game design. One of the things that stuck with me is that in a multiplayer game like this an ability/mechanic has to be both fun to use and fun to be used on. In the case of the carronade it is fun to use because you can take an opponent out of the fight, but it is not fun to have used on you since there is no way to retaliate once the enemy ship is in position (calling for help doesn't count). Now that the carronade requires the attacking ship to be almost level with the balloon it is possible for the defending ship to ram the attacking ship by suddenly changing direction. Thus the mechanic  becomes similar to bull riding where the squid (cowboy) tries to stay in position and the galleon (bull) tries to shake them off. Hopefully fun will be had by all.

Either that or I am trying to rationalize a stupid decision made by devs who are drunk off their own power.

Offline MetaFive

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2013, 04:14:19 pm »
It's like the fire nerf to me. I didn't really see a need to nerf it, so the fact it had been was kind of confusing to me.

That's actually a very apt analogy, because I feel like they were both changed for the same reason: to add more design space. (This is just my postulation, I obviously can't speak for Awkm here)

The carronade was always balanced on a razor's edge because there are two important factors to consider:

A. It needs to be able to keep a ship's balloon suppressed even against repair efforts, and drive a ship into the ground under its own power. If it doesn't, it's of no use as a weapon.
B. It needs to be able to give the opponent a reasonable chance at counterattacking or otherwise recovering. If it doesn't, it's a game-breaking weapon.

Between them, there isn't a lot of 'wiggle room' to balance the carronade. Previously, one could consider making it weaker, but then you risk botching point A; and every point of damage you add to it complicates issue B exponentially. But, since it presently can't point downward to pop an enemy ship's balloon while remaining out of range of any sort of counterattack, Issue B is now far less of a factor. And consequentially this opens up a lot more room to work with the carronade as a weapon. Not only does it make it so that its use has higher risk, but it means that it can also be given higher reward. Heck, now that engagement against a carronade-ship is more of a direct option, this means it could actually be made stronger and faster in doing what it does- do you think we, as a playerbase have ever even considered that as a reasonable possibility before?

Similarly, the changes to the way fire worked did more than just reel back the damage and effectiveness of flamethrowers; they made it so that fire had more factors involved in how it would impact a battle. And with each of those factors comes another way to make it work in a way conducive to good gameplay and good game balance.

And, like I'd said before, I consider both the changes to be incomplete solutions; but thanks to the fact that they're there, we can now look at fire and say, for example, "hmm, what if the amount of stacks to disabling a gun was raised/lowered/dependent on the weight class of the weapon"- something that would have been impossible if it had the binary effectiveness it had before- or look at a carronade and say "What if it popped balloons faster and forced enemies to disengage quicker/did more shatter damage to help slow down counterattacks/had a wider arc to make flybys more of a possibility and still give the enemy a chance to retaliate"- something that wouldn't have just been ridiculous if you were still able to fire it at a ship from high up and practically out of range.

The important thing about both changes is that they've opened up these possibilities, and brought about new ways to improve the game.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2013, 04:35:08 pm »
I see where you are trying to go with it, but something doesn't sit right with your analysis. You're basically telling me they have left me with a half-baked idea in my lap to use, which I wouldn't want to believe. Sure it open up more possibilities, like more shatter to break the guns that can now easily find you as you try taking them out, but then why wasn't that added along with the patch?

The risk with a carronade was never low. At least not for me. It takes a lot of positioning and sometimes brute force to get yourself in range to even start being effective. Then you have to maintain that position, a lot of times with their ally giving you funny looks with their guns.

God forbid you add more damage to a carronade's ability to pop balloons. It takes 2-3 shots currently. That would mean closer to 1-2, which is a clip size. Then its raycast, so missing isn't typical. The only thing I couls see adding to it is more shatter, which is dangerous because then you just clip their engines and lock them that way, which is stomping on hwacha's territory. You're left with its balloon killing power, and armor stripping to a lesser degree. Well killing the balloon happens fast enough, its just the arc that will kill you because you won't kill them fast enough. They will ignore the fact the balloon is gone and hit you till you have to bail. So that leaves the armor shredding. Up the armor modifier and then you go in for a ram kill? Maybe, but you will probably get more OP calls from that vs the way it was previous to the arc nerf. It's a possibility though, but I'd like to think they would of added that along with the arc nerf if that's what they really wanted. Not leave it halfway.

I get where you are trying to go with this, but I can't wrap my head around them patching it half way to see what happens. It comes off as a nerf.


Offline Mattilald Anguisad

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2013, 06:07:47 pm »
If you know Zil, he's not only considered heavy carrorade for dealing bamage, but have allready used it for Stripping Armors. The infamous blender galleon for example - it was a hell repairing armor on pyra when being blasted by 2 of them.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 06:12:08 pm by Mattilald Anguisad »

Offline RaptorSystems

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #71 on: May 14, 2013, 04:31:26 am »
If carronade is to be primarily used for armor stripping then that just means it is another 'gat+flak' combo reducing the number of viable mechanics.

Even after the carronade angle nerf the weapon remains a viable galleon/spire killer. The balloons on those ships are so high above the main gun deck that a squid or goldfish can park in the pocket level to the balloon but above the fire arc of non lumberjack medium guns and go to town. It is extreamly difficult to get in position and stay there, but it is possible. I see the nerf as a piloting challenge. I don't particularly like it since in a game of Vets the carronade primary weapon is very rarely a viable strategy, but I can see how newbies would get sick of getting stuffed into the ground with no way of retaliating.
Actually if you have a gat on the top deck of the spire you can still hit whatever is hitting your balloon. I'll have to test out a blender fish on a galleon but I don't expect anything that great from it.



Offline MetaFive

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #72 on: May 14, 2013, 09:52:59 am »
I get where you are trying to go with this, but I can't wrap my head around them patching it half way to see what happens. It comes off as a nerf.

I never said it wasn't a nerf. Really, it's a nerf by any other name; just one that- I think- opens the floor for future improvements in the process.

Offline NikolaiLev

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #73 on: May 14, 2013, 03:53:17 pm »
I get where you are trying to go with this, but I can't wrap my head around them patching it half way to see what happens. It comes off as a nerf.

I never said it wasn't a nerf. Really, it's a nerf by any other name; just one that- I think- opens the floor for future improvements in the process.

It's a nerf that makes way for future buffs.  How it should be buffed, exactly, must still be determined.

I like the change to carronades.  It's definitely a step in the right direction.  I'm not sure how else it can be buffed, though, other than possibly tightening the spread or something.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2013, 04:17:22 am »
I don't know what the official word was but maybe the lumberjack is firing differently because of the new ship physics.  Changing a shooting platforms movement will change the way anything fired from it feels.

@ Phoebe Imagine shooting a rifle standing still and getting all the ranges and sight marks etc. Now imagine shooting it from a moving boat, your aim is going to be off and you have to relearn the ranges and sight marks. The rifle is still against your shoulder and you're looking down the sight but you're moving differently. (crude analogy but it seemed the easiest to write down)

That's what I'm thinking happened anyway.