Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode

[Richard LeMoon]

The only obvious solution is completely random blind picks. You can't even see your own ship, or the map you will be on.

[MightyKeb]

The only obvious solution is completely random blind picks. You can't even see your own ship, or the map you will be on.

Richard LeMaster trole 2015

[Lueosi]

Thank you for so much input! We will run the blind pick format for one more week before deciding if that kind of rule makes sense for the SCS. Based on the feedback, I'd like to run it with two stage picks this time (ship 1 blind pick both teams, then ship 2 blind pick both teams).

[nanoduckling]

Hi Lue,
We tried blind pick for a couple of matches this week. You already know what happened from Guras post so I wont go into detail. I think the limitation is the lack of options the refs have to implement things, I think a system which requires folks to do counter intuitive things like avoiding joining a lobby (folks are often rushing to join a lobby when it is up because they know delays impact casters, refs and the other team).

Maybe a better system would be when we normally start the lobby timer the ref asks if folks want blind picks. Both teams then have a minute to say yes or no. If both teams say no or the minute runs out the timer starts, if one team or the other says yes then blind picks are submitted to the ref (if teams what to be sneaky and conceal their intent then they can bring flare squids to the lobby).

I don't think this week was a success, but I think it is worth experimenting with the concept a little more.

[Dementio]

What about a new blind pick concept:
Ships are known, but guns are unkown.

Doesn't solve the issue of implenting it, in fact it probably makes it worse, but at least you have something to go off of when choosing your loadout so people wouldn't always go for "safe-builds" and won't get completely hard countered by accident.

[Hunter.]

Could we try using a google form as a method of submitting ship loadouts? Then point of contacts aside all we need is for the captain of both teams to have a form link (available from the sign up thread, meaning no need for steam contact) and for admins to have a spreadsheet link. I'd be willing to make a form tomorrow (including fields for "team name" and "password" to ensure the loadout is submitted by the intended captain - password would be agreed in PM between captain and ref) if this is something people would be interested in. Personally I feel referees should add all points of contact to their friends list before the tournament starts - friends lists in GoI are infinite (as far as I know) and personally it just means I can always contact anyone I need quickly and easily.

Just my 2 cents from skim reading other posts.

[Mean Machine]

I have suggested this once before when I first saw an idea about blind picks being worked on and I'll do it again in case anyone changed their mind, since last time there was no interest it seemed:

- Each team picks one ship and build they want to run and send that info to ref before match. That one ship is locked and they must have or switch to that ship when they get into lobby.
- Second ship for each team can be picked in lobby. Three minutes time to pick your second ship.

This system would put a limit on how much you can swap ships around and counter the other team, but still leaves you with enough flexibility to adapt to enemy team. You can only pick second ship once you have seen your opponent's first ship. So it's up to each team to decide, what is your 2nd ship going to be? A counter, support for your ally, a killer etc...


Or new idea:

- Each team has three swaps at their disposal.
- Teams enter the lobby with 2 minutes time to pick their ships. After 2 minutes, they can either ready up if both teams are satisfied with their ships or they can use their swap.
- Each ship change or build change on a SINGLE ship counts as a swap.
- If a team wishes to make a change after 2 minute lobby time, one minute timer will start and they can change one of their ships (entire ship or just loadout). That counts as one swap, so they have 2 swaps left at their disposal.
- If enemy team wishes to respoond to that change, again, one minute timer starts and they can change one of their ships.

So basically each team has three attempts to change one of their ships and each time they have one minute to do so. While one team is changing, the other team cannot make changes. This would make lobby times a bit longer, but it wouldn't be good idea to allow both teams change at the same time, as that would probably lead to teams waithing for last second to change their ships, so enemy wouldn't know their picks.
You could shorten lobby time by allowing only two swaps though.

[Thomas]

@OnlySkeleton: It's an interesting idea, but I do see some a potential issue with it.

With a limited number of swaps, it really comes down to who picks first. If two teams enter a lobby, and team B notices that team A has ships that have an edge over their own builds, team B is going to change things up. Team A notices, and the counter-pick game begins. Except team B is going to run out of swaps first, and team A can end up with ships that are true hard counters to team B.

Also with a swap limit instead of unlimited swaps, teams might be more inclined to run down the clock and do a last second swap.

[Lochnagar]

I was reading most of the ideas and i was thinking about ballancing everything a bit with an other one:

1. All 4 pilots [2 from team A, 2 from team B], caster(s) and ref(s) join an in-game party. (For better communication)
2. In case there are more Refs than one, 1 main Ref is chosen by caster(s). (To avoid 2 or more different Refs getting PMs with build at one time...)
3. Ref(s) is(are) PM-ing Captains from both teams the password. [1 minute for all 3 points/steps]
4. Captains are letting know the rest of the team about the password and then everyone joins the lobby except the pilots [12 crewmates: 6 from each team; caster(s) and ref(s)] to keep "ship picks" hidden, save some time and actually get rid of the chaos related to "Oh, we want the blindpick system" *Someone joins the lobby* "Nope, old countering game system that's wasting time again..." (Blindpick is forced for the whole SCS event)
5. After the moment Ref(s) is(are) informing everyone in the party what the password is, the timer starts. [2 minutes]
At that time all 4 pilots are sending the private message to the main Ref about the builds they want to take [ship/gun1/gun2/gun3/gun4/gun5/gun6].
Ship and weapon names used must match the in-game names, so everything is clear.
(Bad: Blender/shotgun/small shotgun/machinegun; Good: Goldfish/heavy carro{nade}/small carro{nade}/gatling)
(Gun1 is the same as the weapon in the first slot while looking at ship's loadout; For example: Squid/gatling/mortar/flare - Squid with gatling front, mortar side, flare on the rear or Galleon/hwacha/lumberjack/hwacha/heavy flak/hades/flare - Galleon with 2 hwachas on the right side, lumberjack, heavy flak and hades on the left side and flaregun on the rear)
When 2 minutes timer runs out main Ref takes screenshot of private messages he recieved from all 4 pilots. If atleast 1 out of 2 pilots from the team haven't sent the build in time, whole team will be warned. If the Ref is not recieving the build before the next [1 minute], team gets disqualified.
6. As everything is ready the Ref tells pilots to join the lobby, the match will start in [1 minute] since the time they all joined.
All pilots join the lobby with their ships selected already. The Ref is checking if the build is 100% matching the one they've sent.
In the meanwhile crewmates are recieving recommended loadouts or setting them personally to prepare themselves for the game.
If the build they have selected is completely mismatching [different ship or different gunes used] the one Ref knows about, ship gets a warning which can result in disqualifying the whole team if one of the ships from that team has one warning already and they need to set the correct build before the time runs out.
If the ship and guns are correct type, but the gun was accidently placed on the wrong side of the ship while selecting, pilot gets informed by Ref about the correct place of the guns(they need to match the gunslots from the build they've sent to Ref earlier) and the ship needs to be ready before the time runs out.
7. Well done everyone, the match has started in about 6 minutes.
8. After the match started, Refs checks all the builds once again(it's usually the time on the stream with characteristic "ship X piloted by Y, {insert gun names and positions here}"). Ship which was changed last second will get caught that way and the match counts as a loss for the "cheating team".
9. Match has ended. Since the time people landed back in the lobby, next map is being selected or whole lobby is being remade in case it's not on the list. All 4 pilots are leaving the lobby(no matter what) and they wait for Ref to start the [2 minute] counter again. After the map is confirmed or lobby is remade, crewmates, caster(s) and Ref(s) are joining the lobby the same way as with the first match.(Same story)
10. All the next points/steps are known as every match works the same.
11. Some rules not mentioned before (in case people don't know how to behave):
-silence in the lobby after pilots joined [warnings] (to keep it nice and actually let people hear what's the Ref telling them to fix)
-any form of insulting other players/casters/Refs will be punished [warnings, suspension if necessary](suspension in case someone is being racist or doing other similiar things like personal attack on someone's religion and everything that type, keep the chat clean)
-same for adult or any kind of improper content (what if children are watching SCS )
-cheating will be punished [loss, suspension] (suspension in case someone clearly doesn't know what does fair-play mean, keep the game clean)
-{insert any missing rule here}

I've left the pauses and backup time for Refs. It looks a bit similar to two football teams being already prepared for the game by practicing and setting the strategies before the match has even started and using certain formation and certain players on each position. People are making mistakes, using wrong slot for the gun or wrong side happens while someone's in a rush.
Using wrong guns is clearly cheating tho(to counter enemies).

Pros:
-no chaos for participants (join the party, message team, set the ship and crew up, message the Ref, ready up),
-understandable rules (if something wasn't explained well enough or at all, please mention about it in your comment),
-no last second build-switching,
-gets rid of the boring lobby countering games,
-still letting people take any ship they want, they just need to choose it before they joined the lobby(no limit of builds),
-teams are already prepared with their "picks" before the event,
(saves time in general)

Cons:
-main Ref is taking screenshots before every match (can be boring and annoying for some people and the screenshot could contain other private messages or in-game chat),
-screenshots require storage and archiving (forum should be a good place tho),
-time predicted for each point/step might be too short,
-i wish luck for the team who's got completely countered with the blindpick mode...(they could always try to do something, but it will still end uncomfortable for that team),
-doesn't solve blindpick draft mode problem,
-{insert any missing problem here}
(annoying screenshots)

[Daft Loon]

A possibly useful idea - Having the pilots join the lobby into a crew slot of the ship they will pilot while one of the crew takes thier slot. That way they can be in lobby with access to thier ship loadout screen but not displaying it. Once picks are sorted out they swap request with thier crewman. To keep things clear it could be required that the pilot allways be in the slot below captain and the person placeholding refrain from being pilot class.

[Skrimskraw]

significant more lobby time.
significant more responsibility for 1 ref.
significant more whining from players towards refs.

[Urz]

Since people are using last Sunday as a justification to kill or change the rule, I would like to point out a few things that not everyone may be aware of.

When the tournament started, we had no organizer and no assigned referees. I was scheduled as the broadcaster and had to, with no notice, perform as referee for the beginning of the event. This is why I didn't have Team Predators's point of contact on my friends list prior. Allien showed up after the first match and, also with no notice, took on the role of referee for the rest of the event.

I think it's unreasonable to throw out the current ruleset after a single test, in which there were unrelated problems.

[Byron Cavendish]

Gotta agree with Urz here. Besides it's scs, you're not losing a prize or badges, it's great for testing stuff and figuring out what works.

[ZnC]

Agreeing with Urz too. It wasn't fairly tested; Byron and I wanted to request a blind pick for one of our match but it didn't happen. I also didn't know we had to request it before joining the lobby either.

[Kamoba]

Gotta agree with Urz here. Besides it's scs, you're not losing a prize or badges, it's great for testing stuff and figuring out what works.

Me and ZanC were saying this is steam like two minutes ago.

And everything should be tested more than once.

In fact a common complaint towards Muse content updates is lack of testing, why should players opt to make the same mistake that say the devs make?