Guns Of Icarus Online
Community => Community Events => Topic started by: Lueosi on August 31, 2015, 05:29:03 pm
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Hi guys, the idea is not new and was always around, still no event tried it out so far: blind picks
The current metagame evolves around a few good ship and gun combinations, there are counters to specific loadouts and also some fairly good anti-counter solutions. The current competitive scene with its regular event the Sunday Community Skirmish allows teams to practice new tactics but is also a test ground for new GOIO rule sets to give ideas for major tournament rules. Even if counter picking is much less of an issue than it was in the course of the event, it is still present and we want to provide teams a way to work around that an allow new tactical drafting.
updated rules: version 3 (08.10.2015)
What is coming?
The next SCS #67 and all following skirmishes until further notice will introduce a new mandatory blind pick rule (short version):
- lobby transition into blind pick mode
- ship loadout changes after the first lobby minute will increase an individual counter for each team
- if the counter reaches a threshold (5) for both teams, the lobby transitions into blind pick mode
- no ship loadout changes allowed in the last 30sec lobby time
- captains have to mention in chat loadout changes
- blind pick mode
- 2 min time to privately message the referee the first pick (one ship), then picks get revealed
- 2 min time to privately message the referee the second pick (remaining ship), then picks get revealed
- 1 min time to change classes and equipment
More details please!
Here is the full ruleset:
- ship loadout changes after the first lobby minute will increase an individual counter for each team
- if the counter reaches a threshold (5) for both teams, the lobby transitions into blind pick mode
- blind picks can be avoided if both teams agree on it/li]
- no ship loadout changes allowed in the last 30sec lobby time
- a gun or ship change counts as ship loadout change
- a team forfeits the match if they change ship loadouts during that time
- captains have to mention in chat about ship loadout changes
- it is up to the referee to penalize teams for not informing about ship loadout changes in a reasonable time (a few seconds) after change
- all captains have two minutes time after confirmed blind pick mode to pick one ship loadout and pming it to the referee (ship and gun placement)
- if a captain doesn't message the referee in time about the chosen loadout, the currently selected loadout is locked down
- after both teams have picked one ship, the teams are informed and all captains have to change their ship selections to their blind pick
- captains have to select the picks in a reasonable time manner (not more than one minute) or it results in a forfeit
- the (partial) picks are revealed to the team and the previous two pick steps are repeated until all ships have been picked
- after all ships are locked down, the teams are informed and have an additional one minute time to adjust equipment, classes and slots
- if a team doesn't ready up in time after equipment selection, they forfeit the game
- changed ship loadouts result in a forfeit
These rules are not included in the official SCS document yet, because we still want to experiment how it works out and if it is a good option.
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Question, is it possible for one or either of the captains on the opposing team to deny the blind pick request from the other team's captain? So far I am skeptical about this idea and I'd rather see how it pans out to get a better understanding of it than play out the ensuing chaos myself.
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There is no possibility to deny a blind pick if the enemy chooses so.
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- a single team captain request is enough to enforce blind picks
This will be controversial. I think both teams need to agree.
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a single team captain request is enough to enforce blind picks
This will be controversial. I think both teams need to agree.
Both teams having to agree would defeat the purpose of the rule, which is to prevent a team from abusing the lobby timer to counter their opponent.
It's an optional rule because it doesn't need to be enforced in matches where neither team cares.
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Haha this looks like total madness.
But it looks like fun too. Competitive scene is slowly dying, so we might as well do something crazy. It's like a lobby game on a higher level with more knowledge about other team and dice rolls.
On the other side I read the detailed complicated rules three times and I still don't get them fully so expect plenty of mishaps.
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It's really not that complicated. The idea is that both teams lock in the builds they want to bring without their opponent knowing, preventing back and forth counter-picking.
1. Before your team joins the lobby, you request a blind pick from the referee. Either team can request this.
2. Once the opponent has been notified, both teams have two minutes to decide what builds they want to bring, and privately message them to the referee.
3. There is one additional minute for crew preparation before the teams have to ready up.
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The way I see it, if a team has one composition they practice with preemptively then they'll confidently take on a counter pick or two anyway (Unless it's a hwacha, lion gun OP), so in a sense a similiar case relating to this system has always been around and generally teams that switch ships around all the time are either new into comp and looking for their niche or just too old and do way too well that they're trying something unconventional for the fun of it.
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I really don't like this format. This way you can easily get one team hardcountered because someone will take something you don't expect. Team composition is not always about your own ships, but also about checking what your opponents have. Eventually if 2 good teams will meet they always will have composition consisting both good teamplay ships and not allowing opponents to hardcounter them.
Enjoy that at least age of metamidions is over, because you would see only double metamidions this way. You want to make competitive interesting? Research valid draft system like in every e-sport game if you REALLY need to change something. But current system is totally fine. Just play with bricks you have and don't invent any weird shit. Knowledge about ships compositions and counters is very important skill element of the team and valid gameplay element. This game should be about skills, not about who got more lucky trying to guess what opponents will bring. This idea is too controversial to be implemented. When some teams start to abuse it the rest will refuse to play like that which will occur in killing competitive insead of growing the scene.
Huge dislike from me.
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test it, and then decide ;)
I'm just hoping we get to test no pauses.
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Eventually if 2 good teams will meet they always will have composition consisting both good teamplay ships and not allowing opponents to hardcounter them..
Then why would any of these teams want to go for a blind pick in the first place?
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test it, and then decide ;)
This.
The thing to remember is the SCS is about competitive teams coming together for a scrimmage, there are no prizes no awards, which means teams can afford to take weird builds and afford to loose. Loosing does not stop you taking part the next week. Equally it's about event organisers testing out of the box ideas to save other tournament organisers screwing up, as the scs organisers can relay what rules do and do not work.
So test it, be brave.
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I really dislike this idea, in fact I think I hate it. We should do it.
No seriously, the point of the SCS is to act as the proving ground for competitive play and that extends to rule sets. No one is suggesting adopting this permanently unless it works. Lets try it for a few weeks and see how it goes, it might help some of the less experienced teams avoid just getting hard countered over and over.
I see a few problems we should watch out for. We might see more meta builds. We might see teams looking for the next duck junker and one might find one. We might see more one-sided games as teams get hard countered by accident which is going to feel really unfair, or we might see teams restrict themselves to builds that have only soft counters.
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Then why would any of these teams want to go for a blind pick in the first place?
And that's why the whole idea of blind picks is stupid. If you want to beat better team improve your own, not abuse some stupid rules.
The thing to remember is the SCS is about competitive teams coming together for a scrimmage, there are no prizes no awards, which means teams can afford to take weird builds and afford to loose.
Leaderboard should be removed then. Actually leaderboard should never appear for SCS. SCS until now is the only place when you can play game more seriously. People who want "just play" are signing up for TimmyB or Aerodrome.
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One more thought occurs. The restrictions on how to enforce the rule are tight, I understand why, but teams unfamiliar with the details of rules or with subs who are unfamiliar could get bit in the backside. Can we give opposing captains the option to waive those rules for picks if they would like?
The scenario I'm thinking of is we get some new team sign up who want to make use of this option but one of their number joins the lobby early by mistake. I'd like to be in a position where at the other teams discretion we allow the rule to be applied.
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I have actually been calling for a blind pick for awhile. This is a great idea that is already commonplace across most competitive communities. Currently, it is still just as easy to be counterpicked. All that happens is that the teams will take turns changing their ships in the lobby until the timer runs out, and then it's whoever scrambled to get their crew ready in time gets to counterpick the other one.
However, one genre of game that doesn't do blind pick is the MOBA genre. With many picks to take (usually 5 per team), a MOBA system can evolve on the blind pick to create a whole draft mode. Lueosi actually said "tactical drafting" in his original post, and blind picking isn't actually that much of a tactical draft. While it does make the picking system more fair and less clunky, it does have the downside of possibly allowing you to be counterpicked without having an opportunity to do anything about it. Instead, a typical draft system could look as follows:
We have ships 1-1 and 1-2 on the same team, and ships 2-1 and 2-2 on the same team.
Ship 1-1 picks chassis (main ship, like junker, goldfish, etc)
Ships 2-1 and 2-2 pick chassis
Ship 1-2 picks chassis
Ship 2-1 picks guns
Ships 1-1 and 1-2 pick guns
Ship 2-2 picks guns
This gives a solid structure to the picking system, allows you to respond to opponent counterpicks, and generally leads to more balance between the ship loadouts. For example, if ships 1-1 and 1-2 counterpick ship 2-1 after their guns are set, ship 2-2 has a chance to counterpick ships 1-1 and 1-2. Regardless, I think blind pick is a step in the right direction and much better than what we currently have, though I believe a draft could work better.
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Wether you like the idea or not doesn't change the fact that SCS also qualifies as a testing grounds for rules.
Back when we started it me and velvet created rules based on prior events.
The first ruleset were pretty basic and have changed quite a bit since the beginning. Some things we tested like the 20min time rule without over time, and some things we implemented without testing such as the double elimination system.
Durin my organization of SCS i decided to host a seperate testing event to test said blindpicks etc. it didnt work that well. It was hard to find enough teams to participate and get proper feedback from such a vague event.
After my experience with this seperate event I realized that if you want to test, you have to do it in primetime sunday or saturday. therefore SCS is the only place where you can test new rules atm. - I don't see how it can be a surprize that this will be tested in SCS since SCS was created as a place for teams to play other teams without tournament level of competitive pressure.
The ruleset you know in scs stems from me and Velvet agressively decreasing the amount of rules that have been used in previous events, due to referees being unable to enforce and handle major rulesets. if the current organizers feel that they can handle more rules, such as a blindpick function then why not test it? If you don't like it from trying it, then express your feedback after testing the rulechanges. feedback based on "I think" or "I don't like" is litterary useless, and why the dev app testing is such a complete failure, because no one tests things proper.
Bottom line:
Test it
Give feedback
And if there is a majority towards this being terrible, then the organizers won't implement it. SCS is dependent on its participating teams, the moment the organizers decide to rule over the teams is the moment you shouldn't sign up.
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Lueosi's post may be a bit verbose, but this is not some crazy idea. Blind picks are very common in competitive games and used in a wide range of genres. Guns of Icarus is in the minority by giving both teams perfect knowledge of their opponent's composition, and only because Muse doesn't have the time or interest in putting together a proper system for tournaments.
For example: here (http://shoryuken.com/evo-player-guide/evo-tournament-rules/#doubleblind) is the blind pick clause from the ruleset of the fighting game world championship, Evolution.
In my opinion, perfect information is a crutch and has led to a mentality of teams always needing to always have the "on paper" advantage. That is no more a test of skill than both teams "bringing their shit", or a team getting an advantage through superior predictions.
However, one genre of game that doesn't do blind pick is the MOBA genre.
Actually, most mobas do have blind pick modes which are often the default for online play. The notable exception which does not is Dota.
Two and a half years ago (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,417.0.html) I proposed a draft format for this game. Another proposal was posted more recently (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5660.0.html) by Puppy Fur, as a possible format for Hephaestus 2. The idea has been debated to the point of ad nauseam.
Personally I would like to see a more advanced drafting system be tested in SCS, but as you can see, the community reacts pretty negatively to any perceived complexity.
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This does sound like a good idea, there have been no drafting rules for SCS and teams can keep switching ships in the lobby.
However, counter-picking in drafts is part of the skill involved; based on limited information, anticipate and counter your opponent's strategy. So I suggest one slight change: Blind pick one ship for each team first, reveal that information, then allow the second ships to blind pick.
Completely locking down all ships, I would imagine, can be pretty one sided (and boring).
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Progress will always divide people. That's how it just is. You can't please everyone.
I just don't like that "The next SCS #67 will introduce" sounds like "Since now every SCS will have such rule which haven't even been tested" and that pissed me off. Instead of that is should be said "At SCS #67 We would like to test new system"
That's something I wouldn't complain about.
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However, one genre of game that doesn't do blind pick is the MOBA genre.
Actually, most mobas do have blind pick modes which are often the default for online play. The notable exception which does not is Dota.
Well, the quick matches are often done like this so that new players can get in the game quickly, but in most MOBAs, for competitive games (ranked modes and tournaments), a draft format is used.
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However, one genre of game that doesn't do blind pick is the MOBA genre.
Actually, most mobas do have blind pick modes which are often the default for online play. The notable exception which does not is Dota.
Well, the quick matches are often done like this so that new players can get in the game quickly, but in most MOBAs, for competitive games (ranked modes and tournaments), a draft format is used.
Yes, a format such as the moba-inspired pick-ban draft I proposed years ago and linked in the post previous to this one.
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I read the post you linked. I think banning is a bit much considering the limited options available, but the whole draft process really shouldn't be that difficult.
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Hi guys, thank you for so much feedback already!
Also I guess you already know this but I want to try with the other SCS team to provide you as the competitive players and your viewers the best possible experience. That means if some rule is bs then it gets removed. The blind pick rule is by no means a final decision for all future SCS's so if it is not well accepted across the majority of teams it takes us less than a second to drop it. But as Skrimskraw tried to tell multiple times already in this thread, let's test it first guys. Feedback is really important and this rule only got introduced because I got feedback from the community about last second ship swapping within the lobby timer and if we need a timer at all or how we address the issue.
My personal opinion is it won't get used much but hopefully some teams opt-in for it just for the sake of testing the new rule.
The scenario I'm thinking of is we get some new team sign up who want to make use of this option but one of their number joins the lobby early by mistake. I'd like to be in a position where at the other teams discretion we allow the rule to be applied.
I like this idea, sounds fair.
So I suggest one slight change: Blind pick one ship for each team first, reveal that information, then allow the second ships to blind pick.
Imho a really good extension of the rule set.
@DJ Tipz N Trix: We had some sort of 1-2-1 drafting at a test event (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4886.0.html) (but without gun drafting). The feedback was almost only positive, looking back I'm not sure why the SCS didn't adapt this rule. I guess the impact wasn't big enough, teams still picked their standard ships. Personally I like such drafting more than blind picking but lets try the new rule first and maybe come back to a proper drafting solution.
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we didnt adapt it because the referees wouldn't be able to control it proper. aka muse not implementing it
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Introduce it for a trial and use feedback to decide if we do it again, possibly by a vote from the captains.
The problem I see is that it may turn off players who get hard countered with no escape and are forced to fight frustrating losing battles. I foresee a lot more safe builds and added stress on the captains.
I think it should be a mutual decision made by players who agree to help balance the system. Instead of deciding on a match-by-match basis, have the teams decide beforehand if they're willing to play all their matches with blind pick.
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Half blind pick.
One ship (the top ship) from each team presets their loadout and is locked to it. The second ship on each team is free to play Hardcounters of Icarus.
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Half blind pick.
One ship (the top ship) from each team presets their loadout and is locked to it. The second ship on each team is free to play Hardcounters of Icarus.
+1, because it's what I said. :3
Doesn't necessarily need to be the top ship though, just make sure everyone knows which pilot is locking their ship.
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I also like the blind pick idea. The whole practice of quickwsitching in lobby seems so degenerate, do not enjoy it at all. The two-stage blind pick sounds like the best implementation by richard/zanc seems like best idea, I actually would really like to be implemented for normal play.
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Just my two cents:
When I was reading these posts on the picking system for SCS thats trying out (fun to see stuff still be experimented on) it got me thinking.
When players were mentioning a draft system, why not have each team suggest 2 or 3 sets of ships and loadouts to the ref a day before for instance? and during the lobby they can choose to change from their first preferred set to the next but can’t return to the first one again. That way they have flexibility of changing loadouts but will take a chance by moving forward to the second set with a ‘no return’ policy. That way you have a drafting of 2-3 ‘strings’ of ships that teams pick out. Its worth trying that out as well since these ideas are being tested for the SCS
Arguably, you can avoid the counter game and teams will start to specialize in certain sets of ships that is reminiscent of the earlier years of competitive play where clans have their sort of niche setups.
Just a thought and its totally up for contemplation for constructive thinking but where this is going is pretty interesting.
EDIT: So thinking upon this further, it might be easier to keep those strings through an entire SCS setup with the flexibility of reseting the strings back to the first set again for each new game. The down side is that it can be exploitative since teams will know what two sets you're bringing but it will also get teams to focus on sets they will have to use in a dynamic setup of situations.
EDIT 2: A team put as many presets or maybe capped amount to a document and then choose two out of them for each match, that would make sense to reflect different maps. -Lueosi
EDIT 3: Let it be emphasized that these opinions are my own and are not a reflection of Muse as a whole in any way shape or form :)
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I think the main problem that picking rules should solve is last second switching. Players don't like it when they're up against something other than what they saw their opponents take.
The counter game, on the other hand, is healthy and part of any good competitive strategic or tactical game. Being able to anticipate what your opponent is going for with a limited amount of information, even baiting your opponent's pick (i.e. mind games), and forming a team composition is part of a good game. I don't think it is something that should be avoided, and Muse game designers should agree here.
Still in favor of the two-stage hidden pick, for it's simplicity and depth.
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I think a blind pick system has it's pros and cons. The big thing I feel it's being put in place for is to go against the counter-picking game played in lobbies. This also comes with the benefit of allowing lobby time to be shortened. Teams will be more likely to pick ships they're better practiced on, potentially leading to more interesting matches.
The downsides of course are the potential for one team to have a counter-build on a particular map, and no way for the other team to switch things up for balance. There's likely to be less experimentation, since you're not directly trying to counter your enemy, and just go what your good with. So we might see less interesting builds, but maybe not.
I think the biggest difficulty with the system, and the reason it hasn't been put in place before is the added responsibility on the refs. Having to check each ship and make sure guns are where they're supposed to be and making sure no one changes gun layouts and ship types is actually a lot of things to watch. Ships are pretty easy to keep an eye on, but having to check their weapon loadouts is something that's not easy to see. How do you handle someone changing? What if you miss a change and the match starts? What if you don't notice until the match is nearly over? Is the ref the only one aware of the blind picks, and what if they're not paying attention as much or forget? What's to stop a ref from telling the other team what team 1 is bringing? Will it be possible to see it on the stream?
A system I might propose for a blind-pick would be: Members of a team must all join at once (or at least the captains/pilots). Whatever ship you enter the lobby with cannot be changed. This takes some stress off the ref from comparing what they said they would bring to what they brought. Or teams coming in with different ships then changing last second to what they chose for the blind pick. However the ref would have to quickly look at the ships and remember their loadouts and still keep an eye out for changes.
I'm not sure why Muse hasn't put in an in-game blind pick system. Maybe we'd just have to pester them some more. Or run with a blind-pick system for a while until they get the idea it's wanted. It's only been talked about forever.
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Half blind picking seems the most balanced option. I never saw last second switches in competitive and always figured hard counters wasn't a good strategy. If you hard counter the enemy they'll just switch to another ship and it'll waste time. But it happened.
Hidden loadouts shouldn't be a feature in MM games. I told Howard that hidden loadouts can be put in as an option in custom matches. It would be a check box option next to password. The feature would hide all enemy loadouts and classes. Lobbies would be quicker and it might encourage more balanced custom matches with friends.
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We had one event now running with a blind pick rule, what was your experience and what are your thoughts based on that event?
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Which match had blind picks?
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I believe that was match A, I piloted in that one for Team Predators.At first we considered a possibility of being counterpicked against and thought of changing our setup, but instead we ended up sticking to the builds we're well practiced on and it seems that the other team had done the same. I think the pros and cons have already been stated;
Pros:
- Encourages teams to stick to a few ship builds and specialize in them, in an attempt to beat the enemy through teamwork rather than counterpicking.
Cons:
- Counterpick blindpicks dont seem to have occurred yet atleast from my POV, but I imagine its going to be very unpleasant, if not unfair, when counter blind picks happen.
- Doesnt allow room for experimentation or risky and unpracticed ships.
I think the first con needs some sort of a rule to stop or cancel out catastrophic matches like that, but it might be difficult due to the slightly subjective nature of counterpicks. The rule itself does encourage build specialization and not counterpicks of icarus, but at the moment, atleast in my experience most teams tend to play with the builds they're good at anyway, and there is a clear reward for specializing rather than counterpicking even without this system. No matter how much people counterpick it'll always be possible to outdo them through teamwork. You could argue that this is the case with counter blindpicks aswell, but why have it if its observable benefits have been around anyway?
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As I see it, the counterpicks were never really an issue. Last seconds ship swaps were. I would much like for people to address that, rather than eliminate Lobbies of Icarus scouting ;)
If we are going the blind pick route, I much preferred the old system. First team' A 1 ship locks build. Then the whole team B locks ships and then the last ship locks. Total blind picking will eventually generate map based meta builds and achieve nothing in the long run.
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As I see it, the counterpicks were never really an issue. Last seconds ship swaps were. I would much like for people to address that, rather than eliminate Lobbies of Icarus scouting ;)
Ironically, I was accused of last second swap halfway through a match this SCS, and it wasn't nice that I had to explain myself. I really do hope some form of fair picking rules would be implemented, either a 2-stage hidden pick or the 1-2-1 draft Tutu proposed.
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As I see it, the counterpicks were never really an issue. Last seconds ship swaps were. I would much like for people to address that, rather than eliminate Lobbies of Icarus scouting ;)
Ironically, I was accused of last second swap halfway through a match this SCS, and it wasn't nice that I had to explain myself. I really do hope some form of fair picking rules would be implemented, either a 2-stage hidden pick or the 1-2-1 draft Tutu proposed.
I also have had trouble with referees in the past due to either of the teams swapping out at the last second. I've seen Lueosi attempting to adress this by "locking" ship loadouts a short time before the lobby timer, but technically that would just shorten the time in itself.
I think a solution would be to, instead of mimicking pubs and forcing teams to start after lobby timer, the referees should ask either team if they are happy with their ship setups when the timer ends, and only start when both teams are. Instead of forcing a start after 4 minutes it should be encouraged- we're not little children, if that lobby timer didnt exist last second swap wouldnt be a problem.
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- Doesnt allow room for experimentation or risky and unpracticed ships.
I have one or two Mobulas that counter certain ships and builds and because I was free to counter the enemy I was able to use Mobulas that weren't your average Hades/double Artemis ones.
Not sure if people like to be on the recieving end though.
...if that lobby timer didnt exist last second swap wouldnt be a problem.
I think I remember the times where lobby timers weren't a thing yet and the lobbies could take forever to start, because people keep switching around, which is an issue particularly for competitive.
I wonder if actual last seconds switches could be given a yellow/red card... but then there are the lobbies where people keep switching around for the entire duration of the lobby, leading in both of the teams technically switching at the last second, while only one team gets accused of it.
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Back when I was with TT team I accidently changed last second while against Ryders, just because I lost track of time when choosing a ship.
PMed a ref and one of the pilots I was against an apology at start of the match, even though the switch was not to a counter or anything.
I've also seen enough last second switches both accidental, and foul play to know it cant be too easy to avoid it, while keeping the lobby time short, which when on live stream is important. Though it is something I think would be good to come in
Although an idea spins in my head about tournament sign ups, maybe not SCS but a tournament where when signing up on forums, you declare the ship and loadout you're taking, perhaps having a choice of two loadouts to sign up with per pilot.....
Could be fun to see/take part in...
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I'm gonna forget about the halo effect and that I was biased after seeing this for the first time. I had to sleep one night with it to calm my nerves to give you proper criticism instead of meat. Here's my final word after actually testing and trying to understand the other point of view. And I'm ready to take full responsibility for my words.
First of all:
we didnt adapt it because the referees wouldn't be able to control it proper. aka muse not implementing it
This what Skrim said is just sad, but true fact applying to every tournament about referees power during event. All "special" rules are really difficult to control as they are not game function, but rather a gentleman agreement between players and referees. Therefore rules such as pause or blind picks are very difficult to implement and control. This SCS just has proved that when Allien (Please pardon the expression) totally fucked up our second match against Conglomerate of Ian forcing us to play ships from the previous match which were opposite of what we wanted to bring. Then pause rule which is only on the chat is not always being noticed, especially if other team is pausing immediately after start before your own even log into the game. Signing up for tournament our team is accepting those gentleman agreement rules, but I felt that telling Keb to move his ship back is even more unfair for our team. Who remembers actual place we started from? I'll spare dozens of examples where ships were paused either second before about being to engage from flank or were fully visible to eachother.
Now why I'm mentioning all of that:
If you want to make event more interesting let it be as it is and make teams adapt to the current format of the game. Ryders made competitive more interesting when after winning with their best ships they started to experiment with various other configurations. Don't really invent any stupid rules which are leading only to make teams bring same ships every week, because they're trained in that combination and don't want to take risk of bringing something for fun.
I know that you're searching for cure to constant swapping ships in lobby, but blindpick is not an option when it has too many exploits in the system and full hardcountering just by luck as I mentioned before is one of many (This SCS gave me few more). If you really want to find solution either go for draft 1-2-1 first pick coin toss, not spawn related as certain maps have preferred spawn color or simply let each team to change it's composition only 3 times. And That's all you need to solve this. Blindpicks may fit into games where you can still win no matter what your opponent have. Here in game of rock-scissor-paper we need something where we can adjust to opponents. That is just integral part of the game.
Before Match A:
It took a long while for Urz to add me on steam to friendlist as i haven't noticed immediately. Only after then he wrote to me that opponents have requested blindpicks. I wonder what would ref do if someone wouldn't notice that? Ref should forefit team just because he don't have team POC on his steam friendlist?
Before Match G:
I think it would be nice to be informed that actually ref changed mid-event and Allien is now organizing blindpicks don't you think? I don't have Allien on my friendlist. And now what? We're just getting into the lobby, because we're not interested in requesting blindpicks and we have no idea that someone else is in charge of that now. I know Keb was mentioning something about that other team want blindpicks but no one told that to me - first in order point of contact. So I was waiting nicely till Allien will dare to inform me about this fact, but instead I see Ian joining the lobby. And now we have problem when one of the teams must be aggrieved. Either Ian because we have seen their blindpicks and now can "blindpick" adjusting to what we seen or us because we haven't even had chance to pick ships or Tpr because they have go with whatever they have even it it's five flare mobula.
For the future testing events:
- Don't adjust leaderboard points when testing, because experimental features can lead to unfair situations.
- Make sure referees read rules of their own tournament and who is signed up as point of contact for this week.
TL:DR version:
Tested it. My opinion is still same - highly against blindpicks. There are overall better solutions.
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There's going to be a lot of problems with it, mostly because the system doesn't support it. However, to get the system to support it (to have Muse put it into the game), I think it would be best to keep trying to use it. This shows that the community is interested in it. We've talked about blind picks since around the first tournaments and nothing has come of it, because it's never been seriously utilized. We'd have to show Muse that we really do want it for them to take it seriously.
Basically I'd just keep trying to make it work, despite the difficulties and flaws until Muse actually puts in a blind pick system for competitive play (I think a lot of people have pointed out a check box at match creation would be really nice). Once the system is actually in, there's less stress on the organizers and teams.
Write a letter to your local Muse representative today and vote Yes on proposition B (for blind pick)!
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To correct you on a few things Guras:
- Before match G, I was contacted by Allien despite not being POc, but I wasnt aware that I had to send loadouts to him
- The reason I dont always pay attention to paused mostly had to do with our playstyle, I'm focused on the game right off the bat and I want to control the fights which leaves me little room to look at the chat.
@Thomas, I can understand the drive to make it work and improve on it, but should we really do so in the first place if people are highly agains't it? I can tell you from personal experiencr that most of my negative opinions about it come less from the kind of gameplay it promotes and more from thinking about the billions of exploitable scenarios it introduces. It's essentially a one step forward and another two steps back.
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Let's pretend that Muse has implemented a blind-pick system. Only people on your ship can see your ship loadout. The other team can't, even potentially your ally can't (you'd have to communicate or something). The people in spectate can't see it. You can change as many times as you want, and no one is going to notice. The system even works for CA's and Mods, not allowing them to see other ship loadouts. There's literally no way to know what anyone else is bringing. Lets even go so far as to pretend you can't see other crew loadouts either (because that might give a lot of clues).
Do the potential problems and concerns still exist? Certainly you can be countered without realizing it, and that's an issue. But last second swaps and long lobby times are generally handled. No more counter-picking endlessly either. I think most of the concerns about doing a blind pick right now are due to all the flaws of having it player run. You can sneak a peak through the stream, players might forget, it's a big hassle to try and control, etc etc. However, Muse hasn't done anything yet, despite the blind pick mode idea being around for a long time. Waiting for them to put it in isn't likely to lead anywhere. If people want the system to support blind pick, we'd have to show that the community actually truly wants it.
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The only obvious solution is completely random blind picks. You can't even see your own ship, or the map you will be on.
(http://media.giphy.com/media/8oh42nM14t50Q/giphy-facebook_s.jpg)
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The only obvious solution is completely random blind picks. You can't even see your own ship, or the map you will be on.
(http://media.giphy.com/media/8oh42nM14t50Q/giphy-facebook_s.jpg)
Richard LeMaster trole 2015
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Thank you for so much input! We will run the blind pick format for one more week before deciding if that kind of rule makes sense for the SCS. Based on the feedback, I'd like to run it with two stage picks this time (ship 1 blind pick both teams, then ship 2 blind pick both teams).
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Hi Lue,
We tried blind pick for a couple of matches this week. You already know what happened from Guras post so I wont go into detail. I think the limitation is the lack of options the refs have to implement things, I think a system which requires folks to do counter intuitive things like avoiding joining a lobby (folks are often rushing to join a lobby when it is up because they know delays impact casters, refs and the other team).
Maybe a better system would be when we normally start the lobby timer the ref asks if folks want blind picks. Both teams then have a minute to say yes or no. If both teams say no or the minute runs out the timer starts, if one team or the other says yes then blind picks are submitted to the ref (if teams what to be sneaky and conceal their intent then they can bring flare squids to the lobby).
I don't think this week was a success, but I think it is worth experimenting with the concept a little more.
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What about a new blind pick concept:
Ships are known, but guns are unkown.
Doesn't solve the issue of implenting it, in fact it probably makes it worse, but at least you have something to go off of when choosing your loadout so people wouldn't always go for "safe-builds" and won't get completely hard countered by accident.
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Could we try using a google form as a method of submitting ship loadouts? Then point of contacts aside all we need is for the captain of both teams to have a form link (available from the sign up thread, meaning no need for steam contact) and for admins to have a spreadsheet link. I'd be willing to make a form tomorrow (including fields for "team name" and "password" to ensure the loadout is submitted by the intended captain - password would be agreed in PM between captain and ref) if this is something people would be interested in. Personally I feel referees should add all points of contact to their friends list before the tournament starts - friends lists in GoI are infinite (as far as I know) and personally it just means I can always contact anyone I need quickly and easily.
Just my 2 cents from skim reading other posts.
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I have suggested this once before when I first saw an idea about blind picks being worked on and I'll do it again in case anyone changed their mind, since last time there was no interest it seemed:
- Each team picks one ship and build they want to run and send that info to ref before match. That one ship is locked and they must have or switch to that ship when they get into lobby.
- Second ship for each team can be picked in lobby. Three minutes time to pick your second ship.
This system would put a limit on how much you can swap ships around and counter the other team, but still leaves you with enough flexibility to adapt to enemy team. You can only pick second ship once you have seen your opponent's first ship. So it's up to each team to decide, what is your 2nd ship going to be? A counter, support for your ally, a killer etc...
Or new idea:
- Each team has three swaps at their disposal.
- Teams enter the lobby with 2 minutes time to pick their ships. After 2 minutes, they can either ready up if both teams are satisfied with their ships or they can use their swap.
- Each ship change or build change on a SINGLE ship counts as a swap.
- If a team wishes to make a change after 2 minute lobby time, one minute timer will start and they can change one of their ships (entire ship or just loadout). That counts as one swap, so they have 2 swaps left at their disposal.
- If enemy team wishes to respoond to that change, again, one minute timer starts and they can change one of their ships.
So basically each team has three attempts to change one of their ships and each time they have one minute to do so. While one team is changing, the other team cannot make changes. This would make lobby times a bit longer, but it wouldn't be good idea to allow both teams change at the same time, as that would probably lead to teams waithing for last second to change their ships, so enemy wouldn't know their picks.
You could shorten lobby time by allowing only two swaps though.
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@OnlySkeleton: It's an interesting idea, but I do see some a potential issue with it.
With a limited number of swaps, it really comes down to who picks first. If two teams enter a lobby, and team B notices that team A has ships that have an edge over their own builds, team B is going to change things up. Team A notices, and the counter-pick game begins. Except team B is going to run out of swaps first, and team A can end up with ships that are true hard counters to team B.
Also with a swap limit instead of unlimited swaps, teams might be more inclined to run down the clock and do a last second swap.
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I was reading most of the ideas and i was thinking about ballancing everything a bit with an other one:
1. All 4 pilots [2 from team A, 2 from team B], caster(s) and ref(s) join an in-game party. (For better communication)
2. In case there are more Refs than one, 1 main Ref is chosen by caster(s). (To avoid 2 or more different Refs getting PMs with build at one time...)
3. Ref(s) is(are) PM-ing Captains from both teams the password. [1 minute for all 3 points/steps]
4. Captains are letting know the rest of the team about the password and then everyone joins the lobby except the pilots [12 crewmates: 6 from each team; caster(s) and ref(s)] to keep "ship picks" hidden, save some time and actually get rid of the chaos related to "Oh, we want the blindpick system" *Someone joins the lobby* "Nope, old countering game system that's wasting time again..." (Blindpick is forced for the whole SCS event)
5. After the moment Ref(s) is(are) informing everyone in the party what the password is, the timer starts. [2 minutes]
At that time all 4 pilots are sending the private message to the main Ref about the builds they want to take [ship/gun1/gun2/gun3/gun4/gun5/gun6].
Ship and weapon names used must match the in-game names, so everything is clear.
(Bad: Blender/shotgun/small shotgun/machinegun; Good: Goldfish/heavy carro{nade}/small carro{nade}/gatling)
(Gun1 is the same as the weapon in the first slot while looking at ship's loadout; For example: Squid/gatling/mortar/flare - Squid with gatling front, mortar side, flare on the rear or Galleon/hwacha/lumberjack/hwacha/heavy flak/hades/flare - Galleon with 2 hwachas on the right side, lumberjack, heavy flak and hades on the left side and flaregun on the rear)
When 2 minutes timer runs out main Ref takes screenshot of private messages he recieved from all 4 pilots. If atleast 1 out of 2 pilots from the team haven't sent the build in time, whole team will be warned. If the Ref is not recieving the build before the next [1 minute], team gets disqualified.
6. As everything is ready the Ref tells pilots to join the lobby, the match will start in [1 minute] since the time they all joined.
All pilots join the lobby with their ships selected already. The Ref is checking if the build is 100% matching the one they've sent.
In the meanwhile crewmates are recieving recommended loadouts or setting them personally to prepare themselves for the game.
If the build they have selected is completely mismatching [different ship or different gunes used] the one Ref knows about, ship gets a warning which can result in disqualifying the whole team if one of the ships from that team has one warning already and they need to set the correct build before the time runs out.
If the ship and guns are correct type, but the gun was accidently placed on the wrong side of the ship while selecting, pilot gets informed by Ref about the correct place of the guns(they need to match the gunslots from the build they've sent to Ref earlier) and the ship needs to be ready before the time runs out.
7. Well done everyone, the match has started in about 6 minutes.
8. After the match started, Refs checks all the builds once again(it's usually the time on the stream with characteristic "ship X piloted by Y, {insert gun names and positions here}"). Ship which was changed last second will get caught that way and the match counts as a loss for the "cheating team".
9. Match has ended. Since the time people landed back in the lobby, next map is being selected or whole lobby is being remade in case it's not on the list. All 4 pilots are leaving the lobby(no matter what) and they wait for Ref to start the [2 minute] counter again. After the map is confirmed or lobby is remade, crewmates, caster(s) and Ref(s) are joining the lobby the same way as with the first match.(Same story)
10. All the next points/steps are known as every match works the same.
11. Some rules not mentioned before (in case people don't know how to behave):
-silence in the lobby after pilots joined [warnings] (to keep it nice and actually let people hear what's the Ref telling them to fix)
-any form of insulting other players/casters/Refs will be punished [warnings, suspension if necessary](suspension in case someone is being racist or doing other similiar things like personal attack on someone's religion and everything that type, keep the chat clean)
-same for adult or any kind of improper content (what if children are watching SCS :o)
-cheating will be punished [loss, suspension] (suspension in case someone clearly doesn't know what does fair-play mean, keep the game clean)
-{insert any missing rule here}
I've left the pauses and backup time for Refs. It looks a bit similar to two football teams being already prepared for the game by practicing and setting the strategies before the match has even started and using certain formation and certain players on each position. People are making mistakes, using wrong slot for the gun or wrong side happens while someone's in a rush.
Using wrong guns is clearly cheating tho(to counter enemies).
Pros:
-no chaos for participants (join the party, message team, set the ship and crew up, message the Ref, ready up),
-understandable rules (if something wasn't explained well enough or at all, please mention about it in your comment),
-no last second build-switching,
-gets rid of the boring lobby countering games,
-still letting people take any ship they want, they just need to choose it before they joined the lobby(no limit of builds),
-teams are already prepared with their "picks" before the event,
(saves time in general)
Cons:
-main Ref is taking screenshots before every match (can be boring and annoying for some people and the screenshot could contain other private messages or in-game chat),
-screenshots require storage and archiving (forum should be a good place tho),
-time predicted for each point/step might be too short,
-i wish luck for the team who's got completely countered with the blindpick mode...(they could always try to do something, but it will still end uncomfortable for that team),
-doesn't solve blindpick draft mode problem,
-{insert any missing problem here}
(annoying screenshots)
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A possibly useful idea - Having the pilots join the lobby into a crew slot of the ship they will pilot while one of the crew takes thier slot. That way they can be in lobby with access to thier ship loadout screen but not displaying it. Once picks are sorted out they swap request with thier crewman. To keep things clear it could be required that the pilot allways be in the slot below captain and the person placeholding refrain from being pilot class.
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significant more lobby time.
significant more responsibility for 1 ref.
significant more whining from players towards refs.
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Since people are using last Sunday as a justification to kill or change the rule, I would like to point out a few things that not everyone may be aware of.
When the tournament started, we had no organizer and no assigned referees. I was scheduled as the broadcaster and had to, with no notice, perform as referee for the beginning of the event. This is why I didn't have Team Predators's point of contact on my friends list prior. Allien showed up after the first match and, also with no notice, took on the role of referee for the rest of the event.
I think it's unreasonable to throw out the current ruleset after a single test, in which there were unrelated problems.
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Gotta agree with Urz here. Besides it's scs, you're not losing a prize or badges, it's great for testing stuff and figuring out what works.
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Agreeing with Urz too. It wasn't fairly tested; Byron and I wanted to request a blind pick for one of our match but it didn't happen. I also didn't know we had to request it before joining the lobby either.
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Gotta agree with Urz here. Besides it's scs, you're not losing a prize or badges, it's great for testing stuff and figuring out what works.
Me and ZanC were saying this is steam like two minutes ago.
And everything should be tested more than once.
In fact a common complaint towards Muse content updates is lack of testing, why should players opt to make the same mistake that say the devs make? :)
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Hunter's suggestion made me think of an external tool we could use for advanced pick systems. Do you know of any existent pick/ban web solutions not bound to any particular game?
What we would need: pw authentication for team captains (no signup), live updates (draft system is publicly visible and immediately updates when changes are made), customizable system or code access, web space maybe
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Hunter's suggestion made me think of an external tool we could use for advanced pick systems. Do you know of any existent pick/ban web solutions not bound to any particular game?
What we would need: pw authentication for team captains (no signup), live updates (draft system is publicly visible and immediately updates when changes are made), customizable system or code access, web space maybe
Still trying to find something that fits the bill, but most the stuff I find has only been bracket generators (similar to challonge which is already used for scs)
Though in theory..
Perhaps using something similar to Shivtr.com or Shivtr itself to create a tournament page and forums, using the tools it offers to make something like this...
The home page becomes the webspace, and it is very versatile in its arrangements, just use it for organisation rather than guild hub.. Just a thought.
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External software might be a turn off for people, including people new to the competitive scene, so watch out. There would probably be less turn off for actual big tournaments that want blind pick too.
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As I said Lue, I wouldn't mind spending a few hours making a Google form with the required criteria for a solution. All I need to know is how detailed you want the form to be. Do you want it to include crew layouts or just ship loadouts?
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Isn't that just a more complicated version of PMing the ref your loadout?
What benefits does this offer over PMing the ref?
How much time is it expected to be used between matches filling this thing out?
Some potential benefits is not having to keep track of refs, which isn't really an issue when they're the ones PMing you the match password. Wait for that then respond with your loadout. Then it's just easier on the ref since they have a reference sheet instead of trying to scroll up in the chat or quickly writing down particular builds. The consistent format would make it easier as well if it includes gun loadouts.
It's going to frustrate a lot of people who just want to play the game and don't want to deal with this kind of thing. Will make new teams less likely to be interested. Might actually take more time between matches to navigate to the form, fill it out, and hop back in.
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Pros: feels more professional, makes it feel like a "real esport"
Referee inboxes in game can be cluttered due to lots of messages and a "not so robust" messaging system, this removes steam friending from the duties of a ref and allows this organisation to be done from a single link available to all as opposed to having to friend each ref.
Cons: We have to make the form
Filling a form online from a link is more hassle than friending referees for newer players?
Will fix formatting when I get back to my PC, hope it is readable!
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The Sky Tournament which I ran over two years ago used Google Forms for blind picks.
I've included some screenshots:
https://i.imgur.com/Ltt4FBF.png
https://i.imgur.com/T7o9xCB.png
I'm of a similar opinion to what Thomas wrote above, in that I'm not sure it would be more efficient or is suitable for the purposes of SCS.
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I was looking into the Google Forms idea myself and played a little bit around with it. It definitely puts a lot of organizational stuff away from the referees at cost of slightly more interaction of teams. But what I was missing (maybe I didn't find) was the possibility to view live results after the pick stages (and not earlier).
Also I asked the mods to update this topic with a new ruleset for this week's SCS. Since that hasn't happened so far, here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XdX_CSW5QQsuB5bq0oaMVy5Dkr1mMCaa_2vDWFtRGjA) is the text template (forum syntax maybe hard to read). Basically as I said before: two stage pick this week (still optional)
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As a regular point of contact for a regular team, I'd be willing to fill out a Google doc if its what is going to work best for the SCS
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https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1_1VwCLXP1-c6DTjulsSSlElcfpJoXlzWpdKGX0bgHEo/viewform?c=0&w=1
Well here is the alpha version of my form, not too complex to fill out quick but shows a full loadout to the ref which is saved and viewable. Also easy to update between weeks to clear the database.
(also reminded me that next week is SCS #69.. get it? 69? teehee)
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Updated the OP at posters request.
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This is just my opinion, but if the SCS organizers intend to implement 2-stage blind pick, I think it is fine to have it on by default. However, if one team doesn't want to do it, we go back to normal lobby rules.
MightyKeb has brought up a good point that teams shouldn't be forced out of their comfort zone. I think in the end SCS should also be fun and fair for teams who practice one or two builds/styles strongly.
Today's matches were pretty fun to watch, a lot of action and variety.
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I agree
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MightyKeb has brought up a good point that teams shouldn't be forced out of their comfort zone. I think in the end SCS should also be fun and fair for teams who practice one or two builds/styles strongly.
This pretty much. Take Predators for instance. From what we've shown so far we love to fly split and fly dangerous. Our first match forced us to adapt to the blindpicks and we tried to do a very loose imitation of gents. Our second match was slow and suspenseful, which we might not have let happen otherwise and on our third match we were so cornered with our options that we took one of the worst ships for our playstyle, the Galleon, while I pretended we were flying the same way as we did before and we ended up getting outplayed. If a team likes to fly a certain way, it should be encouraged for them to master that playstyle. From what I'm seeing there are two extremes in competitive: Playing hardcounters of icarus, and outplaying the enemy through teamwork with well practiced ship builds. The idea of blindpicks seems to be to supress hardcounters of icarus, but in the proccess it just happens to cripple master-of-one teams, which I think are essential to competitive as they add a lot of variety in concept among with several other benefits. In conclusion I just think if the other team doesnt agree it shouldnt be done. The thing that bothered me the most about this scs was that none of the blindpicks were under our control, I much prefer to lose when I have the control and responsibility than to win by a coin toss thanks to blindpicks.
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I think blind pick is pointless if one team can force it off. The whole point of it is to prevent the lobby switching and allow a fair ground for both teams to select ships. The random map selection affects flying split and dangerous more than any ships your opponent takes, and it has not been considered for switching. Having the option to veto it by a team essentially means going back to lobby switching over again. We need some sort of structured pick system and having none just doesn't seem like a good option.
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I am not a fan of blind picking, maybe because a few ship loadouts of mine are made purely to counter this or that or are a more efficient version of something, which also only works in certain scenarios.
Although I did not get to test the first version of blind pick, this one with two stages I actually do like. It gets rid of a majority of issues that people addressed when talking about blindpicking everything at once. For those that are not aware of the two step blindpick thing: First ships of both teams get blindpicked, once done they get revealed and based off of that, the second ships will be blindpicked. So you can kinda guess what tactic the enemy is going for and either try to harcounter the shown enemy ship or take a ship that is compatible with your ally while not being at a complete disadvantage.
It also includes a little bit of mindgaming, as it isn't stated the pilot in the first ship slot has to decide what the teams first ship is. As in, this SCS (#68) my ally, Fynx, was in the second ship slot, but chose our first ship, this wasn't actually planned to happen that way. So for people that are worried that they can't specialize in one ship, you can out-mindgame your enemies that way and go your second favourite ship instead of your most favourite ship or something.
What I didn't like was the fact that I didn't get to enjoy one normal lobby of Icarus as apparantly every one of our enemies requested blind pick. If that happens more often, than I might just vote for making blind pick a mandatory thing or remove it. Otherwise I will just hate every single person I play against, because I have to go through the effort to pm the ref all of my unconventional ship loadouts... But that is just because I currently prefer normal lobbies more.
Speaking of writing loadouts down in PMs, I wouldn't mind an external software to make sending the loadout a little bit easier. Or enable the option to send screens through steam/skype or even through the message system of this forum, athough it could end up getting harder to organize for the responsible ref, when said ref has to manage three different platforms just to get a loadout.
Basically: The two step blind pick mode is good, but it is soo much more effort, which isn't that much actual effort, excluding the ref.
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I like two step blind picking. How about it's default and you vote if you don't want it. Red requests no blind picks and Blue accepts. If it's a newer team don't force them to blind pick.
To streamline loadouts, lock in the first loadout that joins. Refs and players screenshot to make sure they don't change, penalty of death. Casters don't show picking. Remember to Save.
The PM step isn't necessary if captains are the only to join. First captains join and leave, then next two. Players joining before both captains voids blind picks for the opposing team. Control via password.
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Something I've also noticed about blindpicks: The idea might be good, but so far the only teams that used it seemed to mostly do it to give themselves a chance agains't better teams. This sounds like a good thing right? No. Teams should be rewarded against better teams by getting better, not flipping the coin and hoping for the best. And yes, there would be point in blindpicking if it could be overrid by one team. Two out of four teams blindpicked this SCS, if those two somehow met it'd be fair and square for both of them. On the other hand the teams that don't desire it in the first place and have less than half a year competitive experience will simply be demoralized by the fact that they were defeated by a very confusing phenomenon, no, not the blindpicks, just the result of the blindpicks. So in conclusion, Low tier teams stand a chance against high tier teams, but mid tier teams are the ones getting the worst end of it and you may end up destroying that category, thus making a greater divide between low and high level teams, with lows never advancing and highs never having any fair challenge.
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My opinion about it is that it comes in to try and fix a problem of a specific side being completely hard-countered, however, getting your team completely hard countered happens only in one of two scenarios: 1. Your team is stupid , 2. Your team is confident enough with their current selection they don't care about being countered.
The 2 stage blind pick system doesn't change anything in my opinion. You could have gotten completely hardcountered before only if you tried to do so, and with the 2 stage blind pick system you can get completely hard countered only if you try to do so as well. Other than not contributing much to the pre-game lobby all it does is making it pretty inconvenient for everyone around.
The run-down of how it went for us in the lobby was to take the ships we will normally take regardless of what the enemy took...
TLDR
I am pretty neutral about it, only downside is it is quite the hassle to deal with without in-game support.
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My opinion about it is that it comes in to try and fix a problem of a specific side being completely hard-countered, however, getting your team completely hard countered happens only in one of two scenarios: 1. Your team is stupid , 2. Your team is confident enough with their current selection they don't care about being countered.
The 2 stage blind pick system doesn't change anything in my opinion. You could have gotten completely hardcountered before only if you tried to do so, and with the 2 stage blind pick system you can get completely hard countered only if you try to do so as well. Other than not contributing much to the pre-game lobby all it does is making it pretty inconvenient for everyone around.
The run-down of how it went for us in the lobby was to take the ships we will normally take regardless of what the enemy took...
TLDR
I am pretty neutral about it, only downside is it is quite the hassle to deal with without in-game support.
Purely opinion here, but I liked it when teams kept running the same build and then switched a ship or so later in the game agains't a better/more hardcountering team. It starts off with you recognizing their playstyle and strategy, and then it interests you because you don't know what they'll do that new x ship x loadout theyve just brought this match or if theyve been practicing for it at all. You guys kept bringing your usual builds and it did kill off the variety, despite my praisals of master of one teams, while we happened to get the worst end of it by switching ships around just in case.
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From the referees point of view the blind pick system worked exceptional well. There were no early joiners, teams picked in two stages, changed ships in time, informative pms about loadouts. And instead of repeating the selected loadout in chat, they were just picked in lobby so I didn't need to type out the loadouts and just could point to the pilot who equipped the picked loadout (with the rule set loadouts are not bound to any particular player/pilot you can change later in the class/equipment phase). One team missed to pick in one picking phase but the rules covered this issue.
To the teams who requested blind picks: Did you request it for tactical reasons or to test the system? If we want to keep the rule, do we want to make it mandatory and have both teams agree to have a normal lobby? Another idea in the SCS chat was to have a normal lobby and if teams keep switching until the end, we change to blind pick mode.
Speaking of writing loadouts down in PMs, I wouldn't mind an external software to make sending the loadout a little bit easier. Or enable the option to send screens through steam/skype or even through the message system of this forum, athough it could end up getting harder to organize for the responsible ref, when said ref has to manage three different platforms just to get a loadout.
Sending screenshots why not, the "work" is still on player side to upload or send the screenshot (it should be up to the player to add the ref on skype or steam or use the forum and inform the ref about it). But even with unconventional builds, ships have at max 6 guns and typing it in chat is faster than sending a screenshot, at least for me.
To streamline loadouts, lock in the first loadout that joins. Refs and players screenshot to make sure they don't change, penalty of death. Casters don't show picking. Remember to Save.
The PM step isn't necessary if captains are the only to join. First captains join and leave, then next two. Players joining before both captains voids blind picks for the opposing team. Control via password.
That's imho too much organizational work by all participants. Timed joining, a lot of screenshots etc. With the current implementation, if players complain they picked something different, the referee can just make a screenshot of the pm and prove he is right (so making screenshots is reduced to a minimum).
To sum my opinion up: The blind pick mode worked well in its execution, it was chosen more often than I expected. It led to one team having difficulties with tactical picks but I think that was caused by a lack of competitive experience. Overthinking the system and trying to solely counter the other team instead of going for team synergy and well practiced builds didn't pay out. In fact the whole point of the blind pick mode is to prevent the issue who picks the hardcounter last, instead both teams pick at the same time. I'd like to keep the rule.
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Another idea in the SCS chat was to have a normal lobby and if teams keep switching until the end, we change to blind pick mode.
I actually really like this one. For a while I've been thinking about an incentive or a tie breaker for a lobby for when teams switch around for the entire 4 min timer, a feature that would give it a little more time would simply be like extending the timer and not doing much but this sounds perfect. But I think to balance it out both teams would have to agree on the current method for blindpicks.
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You guys kept bringing your usual builds and...
This SCS was the first one where I got to use all of those Mobula loadouts, which means I didn't bring my usual builds.
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In my mind, blind picks should be a result forced if teams continue to play counters of Icarus in the lobbies. That is if both teams continuously change to avoid being hard countered, not just one switching to force the blind pick anyway. That way you still get to oust the "lobby meta", making it more about the game, without outright forcing teams to enter what is essentially a roll of the dice. Whilst luck is always going to be a factor in these things (see Keb dropping connection at two crucial moments during the first match of yesterday's SCS), making it a staple of the tournament I feel redistributes what it takes to win so that there's a slightly larger amount placed on luck.
That being said, yesterday's SCS was a bad time for Toilet Paper clan. And I'm not going to pin that entirely on blind picks. I actually believe blind picks had almost nothing to do with it. But hey, I'm green in the competitive community so take what I say with a pinch of salt. My issue with blind picks is how it pushes the game further away from competitive and makes it feel more casual. Random is bad for competitive. Luck is bad for competitive.
Fact is, this system shouldn't be forced by a higher power, so to speak. It should be a safeguard against the game of counters. If ships switch up more than a set amount of times, blind picks are enforced. If a team holds a build then switches to a hard counter in the last minute, blind picks are enforced. Admittedly, this would be hard to monitor and clunky, but with polish, I feel it would be a far fairer way of executing this than having one team essentially play a joker card and randomise the proceeding match. Doing so forces out teams with distinct play styles and ensures all clans become jacks of all trades.
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In my mind, blind picks should be a result forced if teams continue to play counters of Icarus in the lobbies. That is if both teams continuously change to avoid being hard countered, not just one switching to force the blind pick anyway. That way you still get to oust the "lobby meta", making it more about the game, without outright forcing teams to enter what is essentially a roll of the dice. Whilst luck is always going to be a factor in these things (see Keb dropping connection at two crucial moments during the first match of yesterday's SCS), making it a staple of the tournament I feel redistributes what it takes to win so that there's a slightly larger amount placed on luck.
That being said, yesterday's SCS was a bad time for Toilet Paper clan. And I'm not going to pin that entirely on blind picks. I actually believe blind picks had almost nothing to do with it. But hey, I'm green in the competitive community so take what I say with a pinch of salt. My issue with blind picks is how it pushes the game further away from competitive and makes it feel more casual. Random is bad for competitive. Luck is bad for competitive.
Fact is, this system shouldn't be forced by a higher power, so to speak. It should be a safeguard against the game of counters. If ships switch up more than a set amount of times, blind picks are enforced. If a team holds a build then switches to a hard counter in the last minute, blind picks are enforced. Admittedly, this would be hard to monitor and clunky, but with polish, I feel it would be a far fairer way of executing this than having one team essentially play a joker card and randomise the proceeding match. Doing so forces out teams with distinct play styles and ensures all clans become jacks of all trades.
But isn't the SCS less "Competitive" then bigger events.. An more something to try things and keep something going when no events are running? Ie not meant to be as serious (more serious then pub matches, less serious then a big event)... So some luck/randomness can be a good thing, if it opens up new possibilities...
Personally.. I don't really care if they keep or drop blind pick.. Since I just run in a circle till someone wins anyways.. Doesn't really change anything for me.. I am just happy it doesn't make the SCS take longer..
But I do support it in the two pick mode, if only cause it does add something different to mix it up..
Another idea on how to add blindpick is perhaps, a team can only pick for a match to be blind pick, once per SCS? This way they can't rely on it, but is an option to use if you want to.. Then if no one has the option for force blindpick, if both teams agree it is blind pick anyway.. Otherwise normal match. Though more things to keep track of.. but an idea.
Also on the bracket page, here: http://goiocommunity.challonge.com/SCS68 Can you add like a * or something after the team who asked for blind pick ? or someway to know which games are blind picks, if it stays a rule in SCS. Just because I'd personally like to know which games were blind picks + who asked for in the future.. Idk how those pages work, so maybe that isn't a possibility.. Fine if its not or to much effort.
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I actually think that blind picking is more competitive than counter picking.
This way it encourages competitive pilots/captains to research who they're going to be up against. Watch previous streams and make not of the most used builds, play a psychological warfare game where you have to judge what build your opponent would bring, which does give you a high chance of hard countering the team you're observing. Equally, teams renowned for bringing recognisable ships can use this to their tactical advantage, they will know their regular builds biggest weaknesses, assume their enemies intend to counter this weakness and counter their weakness with something else.
Thus adding to the time and effort required of the competitive player, as opposed to now where people can just keep playing counter game until the other accepts the counter. But honestly of all the matches I've been involved in, hard countering and counter of Icarus was a rare occurrence.
Also to resing Caprontos' song, the SCS is a weekly skirmish in which teams are encouraged to practice builds they're not fully familiar with to practice and improve. There are no prizes for winning, no payouts. If there are, I demand my winning be handed over already! :)
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This way it encourages competitive pilots/captains to research who they're going to be up against. Watch previous streams and make not of the most used builds, play a psychological warfare game where you have to judge what build your opponent would bring, which does give you a high chance of hard countering the team you're observing.
People fail at countering even when it isn't blind pick and in many instances I have seen people just take what they want to take.
In the end you don't actually know what your enemy is bringing at all and you are lucky if you countered correctly or unlucky if you get countered yourself and that is what people mean with "less competitive".
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Personally.. I don't really care if they keep or drop blind pick.. Since I just run in a circle till someone wins anyways.. Doesn't really change anything for me.. I am just happy it doesn't make the SCS take longer..
I'm so sorry... I didn't choose squids, they do their own choices. Yes.
I actually think that blind picking is more competitive than counter picking.
This way it encourages competitive pilots/captains to research who they're going to be up against. Watch previous streams and make not of the most used builds, play a psychological warfare game where you have to judge what build your opponent would bring, which does give you a high chance of hard countering the team you're observing. Equally, teams renowned for bringing recognisable ships can use this to their tactical advantage, they will know their regular builds biggest weaknesses, assume their enemies intend to counter this weakness and counter their weakness with something else.
Well actually no. The comp scene is sooo huge you totally can't expect Daniel to bring a mobula or Keb to bring a squid. You have to watch previous streams a thousand times to be really sure...
So you can safely assume that either mobula or hwachafish will work and of course that the second enemy ship is going for your first ship hardcounter. In fact, you don't really have to think about the second ship in the lobby, unless you intend to hardcounter first enemy. Whatever.
And I forgot, you can't really bring very situational ships as the first choice. Because you'll end up flying a kill squid against two hwachafish. Lobbies of Icarus counterattack on a new brand level.
Thus adding to the time and effort required of the competitive player, as opposed to now where people can just keep playing counter game until the other accepts the counter. But honestly of all the matches I've been involved in, hard countering and counter of Icarus was a rare occurrence.
Really? I found it far more annoying than current two stage blindpicks. Teams waking up a minute or less before the timeout and deciding to take the hardestest hardcounter possible don't make me happy I'm afraid. Lobbies like that end up in fascinating matches that take forever because I always love to fly double lumberjack galleon and together with hwachafish it's such a good ship combination.
Also do realise that hard countering is a very... doubtful... virtue. Many teams were aiming for that.
Often it ended up in a situation with one team being hardcountered and of course perfectly happy with that fact. Of course.
Often it enforced the other team to change their ships combination and that's annoying when you feel like flying something entertaining and you just can't because you got hardcountered. And if you change the ship you might get hardcountered again. On the other hand it requires some dedication to take an 'entertaining' ship with blindpicks enforcing more meta versatile loadouts.
Now, the blindpicks system makes hardcountering fully legal and fair so it solves that huge countering problem. And sending the loadouts to the ref was not particularly exhausting. Also it makes ship choices easier to make and lobby is less hectic in general. Possible adjustments to the second ship don't take half the time that thinking about both ships and enemy possibly reacting to them take. That's a huge success, too.
Despite the dominance in few previous scses Team Predators were unable to unleash their fury on their opponents...
It was because they lost the lobby game. At least two times in a row. And in my opinion it's not the system's fault. It's because if the enemy can bring loadouts that hardcounter your one and only ships combination then seeing that loadout won't help you. If that's not the issue, and I know that's not the issue, do play the lobby game smarter.
All in all, I think this two stage blindpicks system is rather nice because it both solves the ungentlemanly hard countering problem that tended to drive many people insane and reduces the lobby time issue. And that's more than the cons which are awful amount of metabuilds we're about to see and adding complexity to the lobby game.
I'm not sure what impact it's going to have on teams playing style diversity though.
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I'm too lazy to write a big long in depth analysis of how the blind picks worked for us, but I personally liked them a lot. I thought it added a different, positive, play style.
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Lue: 'Did you request it for tactical reasons or to test the system?'
Both Lue. We wanted to test out the system so we could all see how it worked. Some of the time it was tactical, for example when it came to T. Pr. we felt confident we could predict a small set of ships for what they would bring based on past SCSs and could work around that. The hwachafish wasn't part of said plan but I wasn't to bothered we ended up stuck with it (plus like I said, we wanted to test the rules and there was a contingency).
I'm somewhat of mixed feelings about this because to answer if we are happy about this system we have to answer a more fundamental question, what is a good GoI team? Is a selection of say five or six well practised builds like T. Pr. or the Romans bring what we are after? Or are we looking for proficiency (but not specialisation) in a large number of ships and builds?
Also how do we feel about luck? Because blind picks introduces a little more. Not as much as some folks think I suspect but a bit. You are playing the odds with each ship pick a little bit.
If, like me, you think small number of practised builds is what defines a strong team it is easy to feel like the blind pick system makes it more likely that 'worse' teams are able to beat better teams. Then again I watch test cricket so I'm clearly a nutter. Of course if you think adaptability is what defines a good team it is easy to think the old system did the same thing in reverse. I can see the latter perspective even if I'm in the former camp.
Then there is the question of what provides better entertainment. The past two weeks have seen some very interesting builds brought to the SCS and succeed. We've had double junker, whatever the heck that mobula Daniel had in that last game and double squid. If variety is what we are going for I think the blind pick system has provided that.
I do like the idea of making it something teams can request if say a team changes load out in the last minute of lobby time. The problem is that makes things take longer. On the other hand I'm not going to be too bothered if folks decide they want to stick with it as is for the SCS, there are advantages either way even if I like some more than others and would rather the old lobby game. I'd rather not see this system copy-pasted into the more serious tournaments we have coming up. We could also experiment with more limited blind picking, like selecting the ships but not the guns which might even speed up lobby times.
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Honestly, with the unanimous opposition of the system in it's current state of execution from our team, all we could think about was doing our usual thing and seeing how it goes rather than taking advantage of something that can be enforced outside of our control at any time. But I think regardless of whether Lueosi decides to give just one captain the coin toss decider of the game, I think blindpicks after timer is the best solution we're looking for. It may take a bit more time and slightly increase the duration of the event but I think it's the fairest thing you can do since sliced bread. Think about it; this system was meant to find a solution to hardcountering game, there it is. The answer's infront of us and it doesnt ruin anything about the old lobbies. I'd rather have a total of 6 minutes lobby timer with the blindpicks should it come to worst and have a fair and square match that both teams agree to sign up on rather than having to involve myself in some sort of "lobby game". Are we here to play the game, or are we here to read minds to Supreme Champion of the bracket?
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...whatever the heck that mobula Daniel had in that last game...
All those builds flown that day were going to be used even if there weren't blind picks, Daniel did not have a computer for the longest time because it died and he made a bunch of new mobula builds in the meantime :P
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If we are doing blind picks after timer, then anyone who wants a blind pick will request it after the timer ends and we will have ended up wasting all the timer minutes for nothing. It ends up being the same in the end just with more wasted time.
A single, one-stage blind pick has some valid complaints as to luck and hard countering coming up just by chance. However, the two-stage blind pick clearly gives you an option to complement your first ship, even if it is countered by the enemy's first ship, with something that will counter the enemy's ship as your second pick.
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If we are doing blind picks after timer, then anyone who wants a blind pick will request it after the timer ends and we will have ended up wasting all the timer minutes for nothing. It ends up being the same in the end just with more wasted time.
As I've said earlier, this could be balanced out by both teams having to agree on a blindpick initially for it to replace the old lobby timer. If not yes, the team that wants the blindpick could easily exploit the timer, but that doesn't mean they're untouchable and right now I'm thinking of penalizing teams who force blindpicks through timing out and not readying up. The scenario I imagine when suggesting blind picks after timer was both teams being unsure and thus noone readying up. The teams should be prompted to have an idea of what they're bringing. This is not a developed idea as of now but I'm thinking of not involving blindpicks at all if one of the teams have readied up before the lobby timer. At the end of it, the other team is prompted to switch one more time, then it's observed whether the ready team reacts to this by changing loadouts or staying with their current setup.
Of course this could end up having no relevance. And that is the problem here, either an idea is too supressed to solve the problem or it's too exploitable by the teams. But all in all, I think if we encourage teams to specialize in a few signature builds then we won't have to debate this problem in the first place.
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...whatever the heck that mobula Daniel had in that last game...
All those builds flown that day were going to be used even if there weren't blind picks, Daniel did not have a computer for the longest time because it died and he made a bunch of new mobula builds in the meantime :P
Yeah well I keep emailing Muse asking them to nerf Daniel but they never listen.
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I remember teams like the Paddling, Wolf pack, Crimson Sky Ryders and the Mandarins who would bring the same ship builds every time and still dominate because they had enough skill and experience to win. Other teams would try to counter them and fail because they didn't have enough practice and coordination to pull it off.
What has changed in competitive play that has every team looking for an advantage in terms of ship builds? If you have a strong team with a lot of practice do you really need to counter the other team in order to win?
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The best idea for me is to play standard Lobbies of Icarus till lobby time will run out. Then when both teams ships are locked ref asks teams if they're good and want to play like that, or one of the teams is not happy, because their opponents have changed ships few seconds before timer is out. Then go for blindpicks. Another thing is - don't make teams ready up, just make write at chat "READY". This will prevent last second swap when in-game lobby countdown is already 5 sec or less making impossible to react for changes.
Pros:
+ Solving last second swaps, so other teams being unhappy about that. That's the main problem we're discussing about here.
+ No enforcing blind picks from the beginning. People against blindpicks idea should be happy, if blindpicks will be enforced only when really necessary.
We could also just say "Don't be a dick". Teams usually aren't like that. After all the only thing that we seek in here is good fun, not trying to win lobby so actual in game skills will have no matter. We're playing GoIo, not rock-scissors-paper. Don't forget about that.
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Since there is no way to get a great lobby system with current ingame "tools", I have best solution. We declare mobula as only competitive ship, so everyone can only fly mobula. \o/
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What has changed in competitive play that has every team looking for an advantage in terms of ship builds?
Back then teams were happy flying the exact same thing over and over again. Back then teams also focused more on killing than disabling. Even back then countering ships did happen, but most teams were happy enough to roll with their current setup still, because they were happy flying the same thing over and over again. Back then a lot of teams put more effort into practising their pilot coordination, gunning and engineering.
A lot of teams today are not like back then: Not happy flying the exact same thing over and over again and are not as practised. If I am correct than it may also explain the increase of Hwachas, comp and casual, because you don't need to practise that much to hit with it and it allows your teammate an easier kill, while you yourself die slower or not at all.
Believe it or not, even I don't want to fly the same Mobula loadout every single time and even I want to fly ships that are not a Mobula, but I also don't want to ruin my own fun by handicapping myself and my team.
Since there is no way to get a great lobby system with current ingame "tools", I have best solution. We declare mobula as only competitive ship, so everyone can only fly mobula. \o/
But I do approve of this.
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Since there is no way to get a great lobby system with current ingame "tools", I have best solution. We declare mobula as only competitive ship, so everyone can only fly mobula. \o/
But I do approve of this.
I have a better idea. Mark mobula as OP and forbid using it in competitive.
But now seriously, I'm thinking that would actually do the trick and teams would be bringing more specialised ships/loadouts/ship combinations.
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specialised ships/loadouts/ship combinations
which more often than not only work against certain stuff and people will think they are getting countered -> blind pick is calling
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We will run the SCS ##69 with the same rules from the previous week.
What do you guys think about limited opt-in for blind picks? For example a fixed number or maybe scaled with event size.
Also I'm thinking about some mechanics to transition normal lobbies into blind pick mode if teams keep switching until the end. Maybe teams cannot change loadout in the last 30sec and if they do, the lobby enters blind pick mode? The problem is it gives away to both teams what the other team wants to bring and it could be exploited by looking what the other team chooses and then force blind pick by request or own ship change at the end of the lobby timer, so only one team knows what the other team wanted to bring.
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Maybe teams cannot change loadout in the last 30sec and if they do, the lobby enters blind pick mode?
Force all of them to fly munkers if they change loadouts! or just kick them out of the event...The first option would be more entertaining to watch.
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I am late to the conversation so this might have been proposed before but why not just ask captain to come in the game with the ship they will play and stop them from changing. Also only come in the game with both captain from the same team at the same time.
If it's not clear I can try to reformulate.
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A few days ago I talked a bit about the current implementation with MightyKeb.
I'd like to test our ideas this week. There are no changes to the blind picks themselves but how a lobby transitions into blind pick mode. Basically if both teams keep changing their loadouts, the lobby goes into blind pick mode. Each team has an individual counter for changes and blind picks are only enforced if both teams exceed the threshold.
The OT is updated, so you can check out the detailed rules. We will test this updated rule for SCS #72 this Sunday.
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We tested it long enough now, any final feedback?
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Just get rid of it. It didn't seem to have any positive impact on SCS.
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It seemed to solve every problem in the world. Current system seems fine.
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I need some clarification on the wording of blind picks. Do I need to do "the dance" with my opponents 5 times, in order to unlock blind picks, or can I request it right off the bat?
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Both sides need to dance atleast 5 times, and if youre still dancing blind picks happen. Used to be you could request it right off the bat but Lue made changes after we discussed it.
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So that means we rarely see them today. Basically I fell like they don't even exist. Maybe it's my countering experience but i never really felt too bad about opponents ships. Im glad it ended up like this. Current model is fine.
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So that means we rarely see them today. Basically I fell like they don't even exist....
If you feel like they don't exist, then they don't do anything positive for SCS, correct? On the other hand, they do have a negative aspect of bloating the ruleset, as well as potentially turning teams away from SCS. If this rule is really used so rarely that you can feel like it doesn't exist, why should it stay as a part of SCS? The Blind Pick aspect of SCS is really rather unnecessary, just get rid of it; simplify the ruleset and avoid turning people away from SCS.
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I could see myself bringing a full Hydra team back to scs, but we hate the dance and we hate countering, so having blind picks off the bat would be a draw for me.
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Counterpicking is incredibly annoying. Any lobby that I've been a part of is worse for it. I'd prefer blind picks off the bat. Not sure how much my vote counts, as I've never SCSed, but I hate that aspect of the game.
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Counterpicking is incredibly annoying. Any lobby that I've been a part of is worse for it. I'd prefer blind picks off the bat. Not sure how much my vote counts, as I've never SCSed, but I hate that aspect of the game.
I also hate that aspect of the game where a significantly worse team outplays you in blindpicks rather than the actual game. Blindpicks arent just a anti counterpick measure, it's also a "lets make this interesting by making it unfair for teams" card. And in my honest opinion, not related to my competitive presence- Teams come first. SCS was made to allow teams a reliable place to scrim in and to act as a filler between big tournaments, it wasnt meant to be a chicken fight for the community, and Id rather have the game ruined for watchers and players every once a while by counters than blindpick every 2 rounds and ruin it for the teams.
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With the two stage blind pick thing it's not all that unfair for teams. You choose the first ship based on what you want to fly and then your ally can take a ship that works well with the first one while ablw to deal/counter the enemy's first ship.
Blind picks now are rare, but so are ties and there is still a rule for that too. But I haven't seen a blind pick since after it was changed from the teams requesting it. Are blind picks not necessary anymore, because people stopped trying to super counter each other every 10 seconds? If so, why did they stop now.
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So why not use a simple, straight up pre-game blind pick request, followed by one team blind picking both their ships, and then going into lobby first? Then the other team is told that whatever ships they enter lobby with is their picks. Basically, true blind picks, quick and simple.
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I can understand the fairness in two stage picks or the simplicity of one stage, but my point is that this is Guns Of Icarus, it's a game where you can pick different ships with different loadouts whenever you want and so can the opponent, and it is crucial that this is a feature because a majority of how a round can go is determined on the ships that participate in it.
So why even blindpick at all if the game can be played normally? The game doesn't need it, the single excuse is that it can provide an alternative to counterpicking in need, but that alone opens up more opportunities for it to be misused than it's worth. Most of the blindpick games weren't even meant to prevent counterpicking when teams requested it, and even if it did we have no way of knowing it.
It might be "fun" occassionally, but that has to be a gentleman agreement between two teams in order for them to feel like they're enjoying it as it's actually their responsibility when they lose, and in my opinion that is the closest we should ever get to the old blindpick system, even so you can have gentleman agreements on anything outside of the rules.
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Personally .. I kinda liked the blind pick matches since they felt a little less serious. People tended to do weirder things then they do with out it, which lead to some interesting matches.. I'd like to see a muse made blind pick mode.. Optional of course..
I don't think its bad if it makes a "good" team lose to a "bad" team personally, but rather a good thing.
The only downside to blind picks from my point of view is it was more work to set up a lobby..
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Well I can also understand that, if you don't like it, it makes the SCS unenjoyable. If it's not enjoyable, than why participate?
However, that is one of the main reasons why I haven't participated any SCS lately.
I'll paraphrase what someone said earlier; back in the day teams didn't counterpick, because we stuck with a build and trained on it. Well I'm still of that old school mentality (if you guys think Mandarin and Mad Hatters is old school, I was competing back when Paddling and the Gents first team was around).
Every time I have tried to compete in an SCS, I have had very negative experiences with counter picking, that have made it completely unenjoyable to participate in.
If I could enter a SCS with a "gentlemen's agreement" not to counter, that would be fantastic. But that is easier said than done, and all blind picking does is ensure the agreement.
So both sides have a negative, or positive, outlook. How to fix that, I have no idea, but that is my two cents.
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So you, Keb, rather want to either have to fight against counter or want to enjoy countering your opponent yourself than just picking a ship while not worrying about what your opponent brings for once and have fun in SCS? Not every enemy ship has to be a complete hardcounter when blind pick is happening.
So why not use a simple, straight up pre-game blind pick request, followed by one team blind picking both their ships, and then going into lobby first? Then the other team is told that whatever ships they enter lobby with is their picks. Basically, true blind picks, quick and simple.
That results in even more lobby time and referee overhead. The latest iteration of the two stage one was way more under the control of the refs, I believe. But I guess if you turn it around so blind picks are on by default (= ship you join with is your pick, so make sure your pilots join last) and teams have to request to disable it for their match, if they didn't want it, it would be less time consuming.
I am personally indifferent towards blind picks. The only point that that matters to my gameplay experience is that some of my ship loadouts are made to counter specific stuff (which happen to be the loadouts that look weird and people don't expect them to work at all and then they win) and blind picks would negate the purpose of that, but such is life and said loadouts can, more often than not, still do very well against the not optimal opposing ship. The two stage blind pick was my personal favourite, since it is more fair than the completely blind blind-picks, and stuff.
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So you, Keb, rather want to either have to fight against counter or want to enjoy countering your opponent yourself than just picking a ship while not worrying about what your opponent brings for once and have fun in SCS? Not every enemy ship has to be a complete hardcounter when blind pick is happening.
I find it much more rewarding for a team to fight and do well against a team that counterpicks in the normal lobby than a "Oh hey look, they blindpicked x and y ships and both counter your z" matchup. One is a team willingly playing the odds and displaying their own proficiency, the other is a team being randomly thrown in favor or against the odds and being forced to display that proficiency depending on which team counters better. To add to that, our team has only had one incident of last minute picks in the 3-4 months of it's competitive experience.
There's also an issue with player consent. Any kind of blindpick forces you to leap before you look and play off of guesses alone. It's like preferring mayonnaise to ketchup or mallet 1st slot to spanner 1st slot - there's no objective answer to either, and you of all people should know that fun is an idea and there is no moral book for what qualifies as fun. For the sake of example, I could go on about enjoying not-blindpicks and not-bringing mines or how hwacha is the most fun thing to fight against etc. and people can look at me in confusion wondering what kind of world I live in compared to their hwacha-free munker influenced imagination. It's not that the person on the other end is insane and again, their views just differ. In the end, why play SCS at all if you, daniel dementio, aren't having fun? Why am I? Does me playing in a voluntary tournament made by the community of a game that is considered dying compared to it's older average playerbase, imply that I'm not having fun and SCS is just a chore?
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I'll paraphrase what someone said earlier; back in the day teams didn't counterpick, because we stuck with a build and trained on it. Well I'm still of that old school mentality (if you guys think Mandarin and Mad Hatters is old school, I was competing back when Paddling and the Gents first team was around).
This is just... you DO realize why you can't really do this anymore right? Muse broke Goio a little while back.. I guess you didn't pick up on that. Goio is more unbalanced then ever. THAT'S why counter-picking is such a big thing atm. The only ship that has some measure of protection from hard counters is the mob, but that's more due to it being broken than anything else.
If you want to be able to just get good at a single build, start a petition to get muse to, I dunno, fix their game. Or you could just do what Ryder does and rely on the Mob.
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Can I propose once again 1-2-1 draft system with coin toss about which team Is staring with first pick? I mean it literally id gonna fix the problem of both those against blind picks aswell as those after it. We will have this way always 1 ship counterpicked in each team.
The problem is that Keb is afraid of losing instantly in the lobby to team that is more lucky in guessing game while Byron and others don't want constantly jumping between ships till timer runs out.
Also: I totally understand that Rydr is so much after it, but remember guys that there are still teams not able to properly play every ship build and composition because we lack training. T.pr is currently the most obvious in their picks. Not everyone is that good in guessing game and can play completely any combination.
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*sigh* now I really do miss the days when teams were known for one particular build/style and really perfected it.
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*sigh* now I really do miss the days when teams were known for one particular build/style and really perfected it.
Which led to their imminent downfall the second they fought something that "accidentally" countered them, as it sometimes wasn't the enemy's team intention to counter, but they were practised in the one thing that countered.
You can still perfect one build/style, which the Thralls did show and the Predators are now doing too.
And being able to fly different styles and ships increases the pilot skill as it also shows him how to better fight against it.
Also: I totally understand that Rydr is so much after it, but remember guys that there are still teams not able to properly play every ship build and composition because we lack training.
Which is why blind pick should be for you, theoretically. Even if the enemy has a good idea of what you are going to do, they cannot be sure, which should leave you with more freedom of choosing a ship.
As a side note:
Or you could just do what Ryder does and rely on the Mob.
We have won quite a few matches without Mobula and lost many with it. Fun fact: The ship that I have a highest win rate with, in competitive, is the Pyramidion.
But if you really want to win, just bring a Goldfish and pair it with something that has at least one piercing gun and explosive gun.
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...Which led to their imminent downfall the second they fought something that "accidentally" countered them, as it sometimes wasn't the enemy's team intention to counter, but they were practised in the one thing that countered.
Do you really not see this as a problem? Goio should not be a rock-paper-scissors type game. If there is a hard counter to ANYTHING then Muse has failed.
Which is why blind pick should be for you, theoretically. Even if the enemy has a good idea of what you are going to do, they cannot be sure, which should leave you with more freedom of choosing a ship.
No, Dementio... this is a good reason why Blind pick doesn't work for teams like that. If you only know how to run one or two builds you NEED to know which to bring, or if there's anything you can do with your single build to help not get rofl stomped.
Oh, and I'll just leave these here..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUDj-V8Cta0 SCS 59 Round 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsRlnCpodwk SCS 59 Semis
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Oh, and I'll just leave these here..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUDj-V8Cta0 SCS 59 Round 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsRlnCpodwk SCS 59 Semis
In the semis we started with double junker and Baked & Fancy had lumberfish and carro spire. We decided to switch to double fish and they didn't change. It looked like an organization error because the fish swapped to hwatcha a bit late but the gunner kept lumber ammo. Renaulde was exclusively using heatsink on hwatcha. I don't think it was intentional to keep the carro spire.
I see merit in blind picks that start once teams have switched X times. I'd figure the rule is you're allowed to swap if they swap to prevent last second swaps. If both teams swap too much it goes into the last blind swap then you start. I don't really know the rules but that makes sense.
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"Also: I totally understand that Rydr is so much after it, but remember guys that there are still teams not able to properly play every ship build and composition because we lack training. T.pr is currently the most obvious in their picks. Not everyone is that good in guessing game and can play completely any combination."
Guras if you think the Ryders want this or any other change for their benefit then I have a bridge I want to sell you. Regardless of if you think the effect is one way or another their collective motivation here is not to provide themselves with an advantage in the SCS or any other tournament.
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I'm pretty sure the ryders could kick all our butts regardless of any stipulations
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It's been a while since I visited this thread, and many things have been said. I'll pick out a few points I really agree or disagree with.
...there are still teams not able to properly play every ship build and composition because we lack training. T.pr is currently the most obvious in their picks. Not everyone is that good in ... play(ing) completely any combination.
SCS should be a competitive, yet "anyone can join" weekly tournament. I find this to be one of the strongest arguments against formal picking rules.
You can still perfect one build/style, which the Thralls did show and the Predators are now doing too.
And being able to fly different styles and ships increases the pilot skill as it also shows him how to better fight against it.
Playing one style well, and/or having many styles at your disposal are both viable ways to approach the game. It is a display of skill when a team manages to break the "meta", and also when the "meta" beats a build that supposedly counters them.
Do you really not see this as a problem? Goio should not be a rock-paper-scissors type game. If there is a hard counter to ANYTHING then Muse has failed.
Sorry nhbearit, but I had to pick this out because I really disagree after reading your argument with D. Any game that emphasizes strategic choices based on available information will have a "rock-paper-scissors" effect. A lot of it, then, is dependent on many other factors. Perhaps "rock" is stronger on this map, or has a certain trait that can deal with a "paper" in the right situations. Or maybe, the enemy is bad at "scissors" style, so we can fly "paper" and put them in a tougher spot. Thus, there is really no 100%, 'hard' counter to anything; which I think GOIO has been reasonably successful at.
...if you think the Ryders want this or any other change for their benefit then I have a bridge I want to sell you. Regardless of if you think the effect is one way or another their collective motivation here is not to provide themselves with an advantage in the SCS or any other tournament.
Like some have said, if the Rydrs REALLY wanted to win SCS, they will have a good chance at it regardless of anything. The reason why many place them as the top team in GOIO is not only because of their passion for the game, but also because they are extremely disciplined and well trained.
As the one who initially suggested two-stage blind pick, I find reasonable arguments from both sides. There are obviously SCS teams that dislike the system, and others that find it a fair or interesting solution to lobby wars. My personal experience (with no picking rules) has been very unpleasant; both sides keeps switching their ships, and I (a Gent...) was accused of last second switch several times.
@Lueosi & SCS committee: Has the format of "default two-stage blind pick, but pre-lobby, one team can force default rules" been tested? I think this will cater to lobbies in which both sides want picking rules, and to the teams that don't.
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Thank you for your detailed feedback ZanC. Indeed we tested the two stage pick a few times and after talking to the involved parties it was either well accepted or better than just everything blindly picked right away. In fact we ran the true blind picks only twice while we had the two stage picks in practice multiple weeks.
The situation at the moment is: Normal lobby at the beginning and only if both teams change the loadout a number of times, then we go over to blind pick. We tried this concept a few times now, and in no matchup so far teams changed often enough to trigger the two stage blind picks. The question is, is it needed or not? It is there to prevent back and forth lobby countering (which doesn't happen often these days). I can remember teams changing loadouts to their advantage quite at the end of lobby time (that's why I introduced the bind picks to get rid of such issues) but I can't remember back and forth countering for quite a while now.
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The situation at the moment is: Normal lobby at the beginning and only if both teams change the loadout a number of times, then we go over to blind pick. We tried this concept a few times now, and in no matchup so far teams changed often enough to trigger the two stage blind picks. The question is, is it needed or not? It is there to prevent back and forth lobby countering (which doesn't happen often these days). I can remember teams changing loadouts to their advantage quite at the end of lobby time (that's why I introduced the bind picks to get rid of such issues) but I can't remember back and forth countering for quite a while now.
I think Pies made a great suggestion somewhere in this thread. That is, when a team switches last second, the other team can request the time to be extended (likely up to 30 seconds-1 min, but I would recommend one minute as it does give the last-switching team to react to the extender team's picks), and if one of the teams are still not happy with that they have they can extend time again. There is no limit to how many "tries" a team has when extending, but if there's a certain amount of time extends overall from both teams combined then we go into blindpick mode.
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Thank you for your detailed feedback ZanC. Indeed we tested the two stage pick a few times and after talking to the involved parties it was either well accepted or better than just everything blindly picked right away. In fact we ran the true blind picks only twice while we had the two stage picks in practice multiple weeks.
The situation at the moment is: Normal lobby at the beginning and only if both teams change the loadout a number of times, then we go over to blind pick. We tried this concept a few times now, and in no matchup so far teams changed often enough to trigger the two stage blind picks. The question is, is it needed or not? It is there to prevent back and forth lobby countering (which doesn't happen often these days). I can remember teams changing loadouts to their advantage quite at the end of lobby time (that's why I introduced the bind picks to get rid of such issues) but I can't remember back and forth countering for quite a while now.
What I meant was having Two-Stage Blind Pick on as default in all matches. However, if one team requests for a normal, no picking rules lobby, it gets forced into one. They can state in their signup they want all their games to be normal lobby, or if they're open to blind picks. If there are no issues with current teams last second switching, or back-and-forth countering, then the current rule set should be fine. Though, I do enjoy the dynamic games and fair lobby when there are formal picking rules.
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Thank you everyone for your feedback and testing this system for the past months! We will drop all blind pick related rules until further notice.
What we will include into the normal rules set are ship loadout change announcements in lobby and no ship loadout change allowed 30sec before match start.