Author Topic: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode  (Read 34153 times)

Offline Dementio

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #120 on: November 11, 2015, 11:58:52 am »
So you, Keb, rather want to either have to fight against counter or want to enjoy countering your opponent yourself than just picking a ship while not worrying about what your opponent brings for once and have fun in SCS? Not every enemy ship has to be a complete hardcounter when blind pick is happening.



So why not use a simple, straight up pre-game blind pick request, followed by one team blind picking both their ships, and then going into lobby first? Then the other team is told that whatever ships they enter lobby with is their picks. Basically, true blind picks, quick and simple.

That results in even more lobby time and referee overhead. The latest iteration of the two stage one was way more under the control of the refs, I believe. But I guess if you turn it around so blind picks are on by default (= ship you join with is your pick, so make sure your pilots join last) and teams have to request to disable it for their match, if they didn't want it, it would be less time consuming.



I am personally indifferent towards blind picks. The only point that that matters to my gameplay experience is that some of my ship loadouts are made to counter specific stuff (which happen to be the loadouts that look weird and people don't expect them to work at all and then they win) and blind picks would negate the purpose of that, but such is life and said loadouts can, more often than not, still do very well against the not optimal opposing ship. The two stage blind pick was my personal favourite, since it is more fair than the completely blind blind-picks, and stuff.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 12:02:04 pm by Dementio »

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #121 on: November 11, 2015, 12:30:21 pm »
So you, Keb, rather want to either have to fight against counter or want to enjoy countering your opponent yourself than just picking a ship while not worrying about what your opponent brings for once and have fun in SCS? Not every enemy ship has to be a complete hardcounter when blind pick is happening.

I find it much more rewarding for a team to fight and do well against a team that counterpicks in the normal lobby than a "Oh hey look, they blindpicked x and y ships and both counter your z" matchup. One is a team willingly playing the odds and displaying their own proficiency, the other is a team being randomly thrown in favor or against the odds and being forced to display that proficiency depending on which team counters better. To add to that, our team has only had one incident of last minute picks in the 3-4 months of it's competitive experience.

There's also an issue with player consent. Any kind of blindpick forces you to leap before you look and play off of guesses alone. It's like preferring mayonnaise to ketchup or mallet 1st slot to spanner 1st slot - there's no objective answer to either, and you of all people should know that fun is an idea and there is no moral book for what qualifies as fun. For the sake of example, I could go on about enjoying not-blindpicks and not-bringing mines or how hwacha is the most fun thing to fight against etc. and people can look at me in confusion wondering what kind of world I live in compared to their hwacha-free munker influenced imagination. It's not that the person on the other end is insane and again, their views just differ. In the end, why play SCS at all if you, daniel dementio, aren't having fun? Why am I? Does me playing in a voluntary tournament made by the community of a game that is considered dying compared to it's older average playerbase, imply that I'm not having fun and SCS is just a chore?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 12:33:09 pm by MightyKeb »

Offline nhbearit

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #122 on: November 11, 2015, 10:07:07 pm »
I'll paraphrase what someone said earlier; back in the day teams didn't counterpick, because we stuck with a build and trained on it. Well I'm still of that old school mentality (if you guys think Mandarin and Mad Hatters is old school, I was competing back when Paddling and the Gents first team was around).

This is just... you DO realize why you can't really do this anymore right? Muse broke Goio a little while back.. I guess you didn't pick up on that. Goio is more unbalanced then ever. THAT'S why counter-picking is such a big thing atm. The only ship that has some measure of protection from hard counters is the mob, but that's more due to it being broken than anything else.

If you want to be able to just get good at a single build, start a petition to get muse to, I dunno, fix their game. Or you could just do what Ryder does and rely on the Mob.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 10:08:52 pm by nhbearit »

Offline GurasOguras

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #123 on: November 12, 2015, 01:52:15 am »
Can I propose once again 1-2-1 draft system with coin toss about which team Is staring with first pick? I mean it literally id gonna fix the problem of both those against blind picks aswell as those after it. We will have this way always 1 ship counterpicked in each team.

The problem is that Keb is afraid of losing instantly in the lobby to team that is more lucky in guessing game while Byron and others don't want constantly jumping between ships till timer runs out.
Also: I totally understand that Rydr is so much after it, but remember guys that there are still teams not able to properly play every ship build and composition because we lack training. T.pr is currently the most obvious in their picks. Not everyone is that good in guessing game and can play completely any combination.

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #124 on: November 12, 2015, 02:30:26 am »
*sigh* now I really do miss the days when teams were known for one particular build/style and really perfected it.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #125 on: November 12, 2015, 04:26:19 am »
*sigh* now I really do miss the days when teams were known for one particular build/style and really perfected it.

Which led to their imminent downfall the second they fought something that "accidentally" countered them, as it sometimes wasn't the enemy's team intention to counter, but they were practised in the one thing that countered.

You can still perfect one build/style, which the Thralls did show and the Predators are now doing too.

And being able to fly different styles and ships increases the pilot skill as it also shows him how to better fight against it.


Also: I totally understand that Rydr is so much after it, but remember guys that there are still teams not able to properly play every ship build and composition because we lack training.

Which is why blind pick should be for you, theoretically. Even if the enemy has a good idea of what you are going to do, they cannot be sure, which should leave you with more freedom of choosing a ship.


As a side note:
Or you could just do what Ryder does and rely on the Mob.
We have won quite a few matches without Mobula and lost many with it. Fun fact: The ship that I have a highest win rate with, in competitive, is the Pyramidion.

But if you really want to win, just bring a Goldfish and pair it with something that has at least one piercing gun and explosive gun.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 04:34:07 am by Dementio »

Offline nhbearit

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #126 on: November 12, 2015, 10:12:18 am »
...Which led to their imminent downfall the second they fought something that "accidentally" countered them, as it sometimes wasn't the enemy's team intention to counter, but they were practised in the one thing that countered.

Do you really not see this as a problem? Goio should not be a rock-paper-scissors type game. If there is a hard counter to ANYTHING then Muse has failed.

Which is why blind pick should be for you, theoretically. Even if the enemy has a good idea of what you are going to do, they cannot be sure, which should leave you with more freedom of choosing a ship.

No, Dementio... this is a good reason why Blind pick doesn't work for teams like that. If you only know how to run one or two builds you NEED to know which to bring, or if there's anything you can do with your single build to help not get rofl stomped.


Oh, and I'll just leave these here..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUDj-V8Cta0   SCS 59 Round 2 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsRlnCpodwk   SCS 59 Semis
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 10:16:03 am by nhbearit »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #127 on: November 12, 2015, 11:12:50 am »
Oh, and I'll just leave these here..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUDj-V8Cta0   SCS 59 Round 2 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsRlnCpodwk   SCS 59 Semis

In the semis we started with double junker and Baked & Fancy had lumberfish and carro spire. We decided to switch to double fish and they didn't change. It looked like an organization error because the fish swapped to hwatcha a bit late but the gunner kept lumber ammo. Renaulde was exclusively using heatsink on hwatcha. I don't think it was intentional to keep the carro spire.

I see merit in blind picks that start once teams have switched X times. I'd figure the rule is you're allowed to swap if they swap to prevent last second swaps. If both teams swap too much it goes into the last blind swap then you start. I don't really know the rules but that makes sense.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 11:16:10 am by BlackenedPies »

Offline nanoduckling

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #128 on: November 12, 2015, 01:40:08 pm »
"Also: I totally understand that Rydr is so much after it, but remember guys that there are still teams not able to properly play every ship build and composition because we lack training. T.pr is currently the most obvious in their picks. Not everyone is that good in guessing game and can play completely any combination."

Guras if you think the Ryders want this or any other change for their benefit then I have a bridge I want to sell you. Regardless of if you think the effect is one way or another their collective motivation here is not to provide themselves with an advantage in the SCS or any other tournament.

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #129 on: November 12, 2015, 03:25:41 pm »
I'm pretty sure the ryders could kick all our butts regardless of any stipulations

Offline ZnC

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #130 on: November 13, 2015, 02:10:04 am »
It's been a while since I visited this thread, and many things have been said. I'll pick out a few points I really agree or disagree with.

...there are still teams not able to properly play every ship build and composition because we lack training. T.pr is currently the most obvious in their picks. Not everyone is that good in ... play(ing) completely any combination.

SCS should be a competitive, yet "anyone can join" weekly tournament. I find this to be one of the strongest arguments against formal picking rules.

You can still perfect one build/style, which the Thralls did show and the Predators are now doing too.

And being able to fly different styles and ships increases the pilot skill as it also shows him how to better fight against it.

Playing one style well, and/or having many styles at your disposal are both viable ways to approach the game. It is a display of skill when a team manages to break the "meta", and also when the "meta" beats a build that supposedly counters them.

Do you really not see this as a problem? Goio should not be a rock-paper-scissors type game. If there is a hard counter to ANYTHING then Muse has failed.

Sorry nhbearit, but I had to pick this out because I really disagree after reading your argument with D. Any game that emphasizes strategic choices based on available information will have a "rock-paper-scissors" effect. A lot of it, then, is dependent on many other factors. Perhaps "rock" is stronger on this map, or has a certain trait that can deal with a "paper" in the right situations. Or maybe, the enemy is bad at "scissors" style, so we can fly "paper" and put them in a tougher spot. Thus, there is really no 100%, 'hard' counter to anything; which I think GOIO has been reasonably successful at.

...if you think the Ryders want this or any other change for their benefit then I have a bridge I want to sell you. Regardless of if you think the effect is one way or another their collective motivation here is not to provide themselves with an advantage in the SCS or any other tournament.

Like some have said, if the Rydrs REALLY wanted to win SCS, they will have a good chance at it regardless of anything. The reason why many place them as the top team in GOIO is not only because of their passion for the game, but also because they are extremely disciplined and well trained.

As the one who initially suggested two-stage blind pick, I find reasonable arguments from both sides. There are obviously SCS teams that dislike the system, and others that find it a fair or interesting solution to lobby wars. My personal experience (with no picking rules) has been very unpleasant; both sides keeps switching their ships, and I (a Gent...) was accused of last second switch several times.

@Lueosi & SCS committee: Has the format of "default two-stage blind pick, but pre-lobby, one team can force default rules" been tested? I think this will cater to lobbies in which both sides want picking rules, and to the teams that don't.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 02:34:27 am by Zanc »

Offline Lueosi

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #131 on: November 13, 2015, 10:33:56 am »
Thank you for your detailed feedback ZanC. Indeed we tested the two stage pick a few times and after talking to the involved parties it was either well accepted or better than just everything blindly picked right away. In fact we ran the true blind picks only twice while we had the two stage picks in practice multiple weeks.

The situation at the moment is: Normal lobby at the beginning and only if both teams change the loadout a number of times, then we go over to blind pick. We tried this concept a few times now, and in no matchup so far teams changed often enough to trigger the two stage blind picks. The question is, is it needed or not? It is there to prevent back and forth lobby countering (which doesn't happen often these days). I can remember teams changing loadouts to their advantage quite at the end of lobby time (that's why I introduced the bind picks to get rid of such issues) but I can't remember back and forth countering for quite a while now.

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #132 on: November 13, 2015, 11:01:18 am »

The situation at the moment is: Normal lobby at the beginning and only if both teams change the loadout a number of times, then we go over to blind pick. We tried this concept a few times now, and in no matchup so far teams changed often enough to trigger the two stage blind picks. The question is, is it needed or not? It is there to prevent back and forth lobby countering (which doesn't happen often these days). I can remember teams changing loadouts to their advantage quite at the end of lobby time (that's why I introduced the bind picks to get rid of such issues) but I can't remember back and forth countering for quite a while now.

I think Pies made a great suggestion somewhere in this thread. That is, when a team switches last second, the other team can request the time to be extended (likely up to 30 seconds-1 min, but I would recommend one minute as it does give the last-switching team to react to the extender team's picks), and if one of the teams are still not happy with that they have they can extend time again. There is no limit to how many "tries" a team has when extending, but if there's a certain amount of time extends overall from both teams combined then we go into blindpick mode.

Offline ZnC

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #133 on: November 13, 2015, 04:07:15 pm »
Thank you for your detailed feedback ZanC. Indeed we tested the two stage pick a few times and after talking to the involved parties it was either well accepted or better than just everything blindly picked right away. In fact we ran the true blind picks only twice while we had the two stage picks in practice multiple weeks.

The situation at the moment is: Normal lobby at the beginning and only if both teams change the loadout a number of times, then we go over to blind pick. We tried this concept a few times now, and in no matchup so far teams changed often enough to trigger the two stage blind picks. The question is, is it needed or not? It is there to prevent back and forth lobby countering (which doesn't happen often these days). I can remember teams changing loadouts to their advantage quite at the end of lobby time (that's why I introduced the bind picks to get rid of such issues) but I can't remember back and forth countering for quite a while now.

What I meant was having Two-Stage Blind Pick on as default in all matches. However, if one team requests for a normal, no picking rules lobby, it gets forced into one. They can state in their signup they want all their games to be normal lobby, or if they're open to blind picks. If there are no issues with current teams last second switching, or back-and-forth countering, then the current rule set should be fine. Though, I do enjoy the dynamic games and fair lobby when there are formal picking rules.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 04:11:27 pm by Zanc »

Offline Lueosi

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #134 on: November 15, 2015, 05:13:30 pm »
Thank you everyone for your feedback and testing this system for the past months! We will drop all blind pick related rules until further notice.

What we will include into the normal rules set are ship loadout change announcements in lobby and no ship loadout change allowed 30sec before match start.