Author Topic: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode  (Read 34316 times)

Offline DJ Tipz N Trix

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2015, 09:15:37 am »
I have actually been calling for a blind pick for awhile.  This is a great idea that is already commonplace across most competitive communities.  Currently, it is still just as easy to be counterpicked.  All that happens is that the teams will take turns changing their ships in the lobby until the timer runs out, and then it's whoever scrambled to get their crew ready in time gets to counterpick the other one.

However, one genre of game that doesn't do blind pick is the MOBA genre.  With many picks to take (usually 5 per team), a MOBA system can evolve on the blind pick to create a whole draft mode. Lueosi actually said "tactical drafting" in his original post, and blind picking isn't actually that much of a tactical draft.  While it does make the picking system more fair and less clunky, it does have the downside of possibly allowing you to be counterpicked without having an opportunity to do anything about it.  Instead, a typical draft system could look as follows:

We have ships 1-1 and 1-2 on the same team, and ships 2-1 and 2-2 on the same team.

Ship 1-1 picks chassis (main ship, like junker, goldfish, etc)
Ships 2-1 and 2-2 pick chassis
Ship 1-2 picks chassis
Ship 2-1 picks guns
Ships 1-1 and 1-2 pick guns
Ship 2-2 picks guns

This gives a solid structure to the picking system, allows you to respond to opponent counterpicks, and generally leads to more balance between the ship loadouts.  For example, if ships 1-1 and 1-2 counterpick ship 2-1 after their guns are set, ship 2-2 has a chance to counterpick ships 1-1 and 1-2.  Regardless, I think blind pick is a step in the right direction and much better than what we currently have, though I believe a draft could work better.

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2015, 09:31:02 am »
Wether you like the idea or not doesn't change the fact that SCS also qualifies as a testing grounds for rules.

Back when we started it me and velvet created rules based on prior events.
The first ruleset were pretty basic and have changed quite a bit since the beginning. Some things we tested like the 20min time rule without over time, and some things we implemented without testing such as the double elimination system.

Durin my organization of SCS i decided to host a seperate testing event to test said blindpicks etc. it didnt work that well. It was hard to find enough teams to participate and get proper feedback from such a vague event.
After my experience with this seperate event I realized that if you want to test, you have to do it in primetime sunday or saturday. therefore SCS is the only place where you can test new rules atm. - I don't see how it can be a surprize that this will be tested in SCS since SCS was created as a place for teams to play other teams without tournament level of competitive pressure.

The ruleset you know in scs stems from me and Velvet agressively decreasing the amount of rules that have been used in previous events, due to referees being unable to enforce and handle major rulesets. if the current organizers feel that they can handle more rules, such as a blindpick function then why not test it? If you don't like it from trying it, then express your feedback after testing the rulechanges. feedback based on "I think" or "I don't like" is litterary useless, and why the dev app testing is such a complete failure, because no one tests things proper.

Bottom line:
Test it
Give feedback

And if there is a majority towards this being terrible, then the organizers won't implement it.  SCS is dependent on its participating teams, the moment the organizers decide to rule over the teams is the moment you shouldn't sign up.

Offline Urz

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2015, 10:12:59 am »
Lueosi's post may be a bit verbose, but this is not some crazy idea. Blind picks are very common in competitive games and used in a wide range of genres. Guns of Icarus is in the minority by giving both teams perfect knowledge of their opponent's composition, and only because Muse doesn't have the time or interest in putting together a proper system for tournaments.

For example: here is the blind pick clause from the ruleset of the fighting game world championship, Evolution.

In my opinion, perfect information is a crutch and has led to a mentality of teams always needing to always have the "on paper" advantage. That is no more a test of skill than both teams "bringing their shit", or a team getting an advantage through superior predictions.

Quote from: DJ Tipz N Trix
However, one genre of game that doesn't do blind pick is the MOBA genre.
Actually, most mobas do have blind pick modes which are often the default for online play. The notable exception which does not is Dota.

Two and a half years ago I proposed a draft format for this game. Another proposal was posted more recently by Puppy Fur, as a possible format for Hephaestus 2. The idea has been debated to the point of ad nauseam.

Personally I would like to see a more advanced drafting system be tested in SCS, but as you can see, the community reacts pretty negatively to any perceived complexity.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 10:19:04 am by Urz »

Offline ZnC

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2015, 10:15:04 am »
This does sound like a good idea, there have been no drafting rules for SCS and teams can keep switching ships in the lobby.

However, counter-picking in drafts is part of the skill involved; based on limited information, anticipate and counter your opponent's strategy. So I suggest one slight change: Blind pick one ship for each team first, reveal that information, then allow the second ships to blind pick.

Completely locking down all ships, I would imagine, can be pretty one sided (and boring).

Offline GurasOguras

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2015, 11:21:57 am »
Progress will always divide people. That's how it just is. You can't please everyone.

I just don't like that "The next SCS #67 will introduce" sounds like "Since now every SCS will have such rule which haven't even been tested" and that pissed me off. Instead of that is should be said "At SCS #67 We would like to test new system"

That's something I wouldn't complain about.

Offline DJ Tipz N Trix

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2015, 11:37:45 am »

Quote from: DJ Tipz N Trix
However, one genre of game that doesn't do blind pick is the MOBA genre.
Actually, most mobas do have blind pick modes which are often the default for online play. The notable exception which does not is Dota.


Well, the quick matches are often done like this so that new players can get in the game quickly, but in most MOBAs, for competitive games (ranked modes and tournaments), a draft format is used.

Offline Urz

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2015, 12:30:01 pm »
Quote from: DJ Tipz N Trix
However, one genre of game that doesn't do blind pick is the MOBA genre.
Actually, most mobas do have blind pick modes which are often the default for online play. The notable exception which does not is Dota.
Well, the quick matches are often done like this so that new players can get in the game quickly, but in most MOBAs, for competitive games (ranked modes and tournaments), a draft format is used.

Yes, a format such as the moba-inspired pick-ban draft I proposed years ago and linked in the post previous to this one.

Offline DJ Tipz N Trix

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2015, 01:30:38 pm »
I read the post you linked.  I think banning is a bit much considering the limited options available, but the whole draft process really shouldn't be that difficult.

Offline Lueosi

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2015, 01:57:22 pm »
Hi guys, thank you for so much feedback already!

Also I guess you already know this but I want to try with the other SCS team to provide you as the competitive players and your viewers the best possible experience. That means if some rule is bs then it gets removed. The blind pick rule is by no means a final decision for all future SCS's so if it is not well accepted across the majority of teams it takes us less than a second to drop it. But as Skrimskraw tried to tell multiple times already in this thread, let's test it first guys. Feedback is really important and this rule only got introduced because I got feedback from the community about last second ship swapping within the lobby timer and if we need a timer at all or how we address the issue.

My personal opinion is it won't get used much but hopefully some teams opt-in for it just for the sake of testing the new rule.

The scenario I'm thinking of is we get some new team sign up who want to make use of this option but one of their number joins the lobby early by mistake. I'd like to be in a position where at the other teams discretion we allow the rule to be applied.
I like this idea, sounds fair.

So I suggest one slight change: Blind pick one ship for each team first, reveal that information, then allow the second ships to blind pick.
Imho a really good extension of the rule set.

@DJ Tipz N Trix: We had some sort of 1-2-1 drafting at a test event (but without gun drafting). The feedback was almost only positive, looking back I'm not sure why the SCS didn't adapt this rule. I guess the impact wasn't big enough, teams still picked their standard ships. Personally I like such drafting more than blind picking but lets try the new rule first and maybe come back to a proper drafting solution.

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2015, 04:38:08 pm »
we didnt adapt it because the referees wouldn't be able to control it proper. aka muse not implementing it

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2015, 05:20:21 pm »
Introduce it for a trial and use feedback to decide if we do it again, possibly by a vote from the captains.

The problem I see is that it may turn off players who get hard countered with no escape and are forced to fight frustrating losing battles. I foresee a lot more safe builds and added stress on the captains.

I think it should be a mutual decision made by players who agree to help balance the system. Instead of deciding on a match-by-match basis, have the teams decide beforehand if they're willing to play all their matches with blind pick.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 05:24:04 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2015, 07:27:04 pm »
Half blind pick.

One ship (the top ship) from each team presets their loadout and is locked to it. The second ship on each team is free to play Hardcounters of Icarus.

Offline ZnC

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2015, 07:57:39 pm »
Half blind pick.

One ship (the top ship) from each team presets their loadout and is locked to it. The second ship on each team is free to play Hardcounters of Icarus.
+1, because it's what I said. :3

Doesn't necessarily need to be the top ship though, just make sure everyone knows which pilot is locking their ship.

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2015, 01:11:13 pm »
I also like the blind pick idea. The whole practice of quickwsitching in lobby seems so degenerate, do not enjoy it at all. The two-stage blind pick sounds like the best implementation by richard/zanc seems like best idea, I actually would really like to be implemented for normal play.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 01:16:10 pm by Omniraptor »

Offline Ayetach

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Re: Sunday Community Skirmish: New optional blind pick mode
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2015, 05:43:01 pm »
Just my two cents:

When I was reading these posts on the picking system for SCS thats trying out (fun to see stuff still be experimented on) it got me thinking.

When players were mentioning a draft system, why not have each team suggest 2 or 3 sets of ships and loadouts to the ref a day before for instance? and during the lobby they can choose to change from their first preferred set to the next but can’t return to the first one again. That way they have flexibility of changing loadouts but will take a chance by moving forward to the second set with a ‘no return’ policy. That way you have a drafting of 2-3 ‘strings’ of ships that teams pick out. Its worth trying that out as well since these ideas are being tested for the SCS

Arguably, you can avoid the counter game and teams will start to specialize in certain sets of ships that is reminiscent of the earlier years of competitive play where clans have their sort of niche setups.

Just a thought and its totally up for contemplation for constructive thinking but where this is going is pretty interesting.

EDIT: So thinking upon this further, it might be easier to keep those strings through an entire SCS setup with the flexibility of reseting the strings back to the first set again for each new game. The down side is that it can be exploitative since teams will know what two sets you're bringing but it will also get teams to focus on sets they will have to use in a dynamic setup of situations.

EDIT 2: A team put as many presets or maybe capped amount to a document and then choose two out of them for each match, that would make sense to reflect different maps. -Lueosi

EDIT 3: Let it be emphasized that these opinions are my own and are not a reflection of Muse as a whole in any way shape or form :)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 11:42:52 am by -Muse- Ayetach »