Author Topic: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"  (Read 8161 times)

Offline Skyler Ruin

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New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« on: March 11, 2013, 10:44:52 am »
 I would like to see a new role that can utilize our ability to move freely about the ships in the game. I have successfully boarded other ships a time or two only to find that I am rather limited to what i can do. By boarding I mean I jumped off my ship as we passed close enough or the other ship went under our ship. I am able to keep my currently boarded ship spotted but I would like to ability to do more.

 I've come up with a few "Sabo" tools already. First is the "Monkey Wrench". After boarding an enemy ship you can place 1 wrench(up to 3 max) that puts a stacking debuff timer on ship components. Place into an enemy engine to damage and slow them down, into hull to debuff armor, into balloon to slowly let air out, into guns to defuff random negative effect and set fire to all if left alone for the duration of the debuff. The severity of the debuff increases with additional stacks(max of 3) not duration.

 Second tool is the "Black Jack" which is used to stun or knock out enemy players. The effect of the black jack would actually dismount gunners from guns, make engineer tools less effective and slow movement speed for fixed amount of time and kick a captain off the helm. This sounds OP, I know, but when used on enemy "Sabos" it knocks them off your ship effectively sending them back to their own ship. This makes having a Saboteur on board your ship useful not just novel.

 Third "Sabo" tool is the "Deck Buffer". As a saboteur you can hold the right mouse button to buff any place on the ship deck to a fine polish. This would take a few moments to make it nice and shiny! The effect would be that crew members would slide across this finely polished surface right passed ship components that need repair or even to mount a gun or the helm. Other sabos would not be effected by this since they have special boots to walk on even the slickest of surfaces.

 Fourth sabo tool is "Bull Horn". This tool is used to taunt players by allowing proximity voice chat. Think of all the damage you could wreak by simply making it known that you have boarded your victims ship and now they must be weary of you on their ship and not just the other ships. Dun dun dun! Also is used to shout back at your own ship to spot the ship you are currently boarded even within clouds. This takes up the Captains Tool slot and is Saboteur only.

 Last tool I came up with is a "Box with two eye holes cut out of it™". This tool is the only auto use tool for this role. Whenever a saboteur stops moving he/she conceals themselves within a small "box with two eye holes cut out of it™" to hide from enemy "Sabos". The effect lasts as long as you stand still and starts as soon as you stop moving. Sabo only tool.
 
 There is one last skill available to all Saboteurs. This skill allows you to stuff "Lochnagar Shot" into any enemy gun you right click on. Since we can not mount enemy guns we can force them to reload Lochnagar Shot even with an enemy already mounted on the gun. This fills the Gunner Tool slot and is available for Saboteur only.

 Saboteur can not use any Engineer Tools as the "Monkey Wrench" takes up the Eng Tool slot and has the same effect as a pipe wrench on friendly ship components. Also works on team mate ships if that extra hand is needed.

 I was working on some concept art for this role when I realized that it is only fitting for a true Saboteur to fit in with his enemies by being able to sport any other roles outfit already acquired by the player. Simplicity is key to this role. Can't get much more simple than using the beautiful outfits already in game for the other roles.

 I think this is a well fleshed out role design and I think many others will like this Role no matter how novel. I believe it has a real place for this niche in this already incredible game. No need to add extra boarding mechanics either... Unless you want to add in the actual first Sabo tool the "Grappling Hook!" Hahaha. Please consider this idea of mine. Any one interested in supporting this idea please leave your feed back. Criticism is always welcome as well as your "thumbs up" and/or "Aye". 

   Thank you
   - Skyler Ruin
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 10:49:57 am by Skyler Ruin »

Offline Sgt. Spoon

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2013, 11:14:55 am »
Boarding will never be a part of the game. For more information, here's the FAQ's answer: http://gunsoficarus.com/faq/#15a
and a more detailed explanation: http://gunsoficarus.com/community/blog/about-boarding/

We hope that you will enjoy the game either way. One question though

By boarding I mean I jumped off my ship as we passed close enough or the other ship went under our ship.
Did you manage to stay on the other ship for a substantial amount of time? If so, you might have found another bug.

Offline Phoebe

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2013, 11:21:39 am »
I applaud the effort you put in your post and admire your creativity;- however...

I don't think boarding; or any of the mentioned gameplay suggestions really belong to Guns of Icarus Online.  One of my favorite aspects of this game is the feeling of being tight and entirely dependant on your ship and it's crew members without any of the pew pew or hand to hand combat where personal competitive spirit takes over as I've witnessed in so many other games.

I purchased the game because I really felt like this could be that one game where you really do need to and WANT to work together as a team in the confined space of your own private battle station without having to meet other players toe to toe and defeat them or display superior "Melee" skills in order to gain an advantage.

Boarding would eliminate all that niche.  It would certainly add something neat and entertaining for people who are looking to get more out of Guns of Icarus Online but I don't think it weighs up to the cons of the drastic changes to gameplay that come with it. 

If someone boards an enemy ship;- your crew has a member less while that person plays to his own personal performances;- that's the exact opposite of what Muse - myself and I reckon a lot of other players want to promote which is tight knit team experience.

Offline Jinrai

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2013, 11:27:56 am »
Nice idea, but I basicly agree with everything Phoebe said. Too much of a niche, and your own team going down a man is unacceptable too.

Offline Skyler Ruin

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2013, 12:22:42 pm »
Did you manage to stay on the other ship for a substantial amount of time? If so, you might have found another bug.

 Just long enough for the ship to be destroyed. Which was more than 30 seconds.


 And for the other replies. I thank you for your input, but I do believe that there is a place for this role. I am no game developer, but I see potential for this to be modified in such a way that it could be a viable role choose. The tools I came up with could very well be modified for more friendly ship use. I also have to disagree with your thoughts on this role being less team work oriented. If that were the case then the Gunner is only part of the team due to being on the same ship. If you take focus off that point then you see that the roles do similar things that you dont see as teamwork. They damage enemy components and spot(among other things). I dont believe that being aboard the same vessel necessarily gives them enough to call that team work or taking that away(in the case of the saboteur) makes them any less of a team player.

 Please keep in mind that Im not a game designer or developer. I am just a passionate player with ideas. I have no doubts that if this idea is liked it can be worked in and modified to fit with team play. Also take into account that you face the choice of risk/reward with being "a man down" as someone stated. This is the same as having all 4 crew members being gunners. If you broaden your views you might see how this role can play well with others ! No manipulation required.

 Teamwork is what you make it. A good example of odd man out is the Goalie in soccer/football. You dont see the team as a man down since you have a goalie all by himself filling his/hers particular role, right? He isnt on the field or as mobile as the other players and he isnt on the offensive. Thou the goalie is definitely part of the team. I know this is not the same game as soccer, but I hope you see where I am coming from. Please do not dismiss my idea too lightly and thank you again for your views and criticism.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 12:40:42 pm by Skyler Ruin »

Offline Cpt. Yami

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2013, 12:57:06 pm »
A nice idea, but I don't think its feasable with the current crew sizes. On any of the current ships you really need the crew to be active on your own ship. Right now there a 4-man crew limit. Someone has to fly the bloody thing, so basicly 3 people to keep your ship together and destroy others. Minus 1/2 gunner/s, because lets face it, they can't rebuild for poop. Were you to successfully board one of those ships with said crew composition as mentioned before, you can literally destroy ships by simply camping the engineer with the black jack, making him unable to rebuild when the need is dire. With the current build you proposed here would make it far to unbalanced for a game which focuses specifically on airship combat. A nice idea though, and perhaps can be implemented at a later stage once(or if) larger crews become available.

Offline Skyler Ruin

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2013, 01:27:30 pm »
A nice idea, but I don't think its feasable with the current crew sizes. On any of the current ships you really need the crew to be active on your own ship. Right now there a 4-man crew limit. Someone has to fly the bloody thing, so basicly 3 people to keep your ship together and destroy others. Minus 1/2 gunner/s, because lets face it, they can't rebuild for poop. Were you to successfully board one of those ships with said crew composition as mentioned before, you can literally destroy ships by simply camping the engineer with the black jack, making him unable to rebuild when the need is dire. With the current build you proposed here would make it far to unbalanced for a game which focuses specifically on airship combat. A nice idea though, and perhaps can be implemented at a later stage once(or if) larger crews become available.

To your point of camping the hull. If the enemy has a Saboteur he can blackjack you and you will be kicked from their ship back to your own. Also his crew would be "down a man". Risk verse reward. It's a real choice. Not a problem.

Offline Shinkurex

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2013, 01:31:27 pm »
The problem with this role, is that it's boarding... It would be fun I'm sure, but it would break the current feel of the game, and go against everything that Muse has been going for with team play... Saboteur is essentially a solo strategy

Offline Skyler Ruin

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2013, 03:08:51 pm »
 I'm sorry, Shinkurex, but I disagree. Being on the same ship does not make you a team. Team work does. How is it any different from a gunners "teamwork"? Consider what a gunner does. They mount a gun, choose an ammo and hopefully shoot at the same ship as the other gunner. They can also help repair if they are one of those good gunners that is aware of their surroundings. Which part of that is team work? If you can answer that then you will see how it can apply to the Saboteur as well. You can create ways for them to be team oriented. The design I thought up is based around team work. Any role can be played as a non team player. The fact that we choose to play as a team is what makes it a team. So it is really based upon your own perspective and what you feel team work is(or what you've been told it is).

 So far I've only seen one legit reason against my idea. That is that Muse deciding against boarding. They said it was considered a lot. That means it was a question at some point and the ideas for it haven't fit the feel of the  game. It's possible that an idea outside of Muse might change that. I understand that people like to shoot down other peoples imaginings, but instead of pointing out the holes in it maybe we could fill them with support from your own ideas. If the game in its current state is the original idea and that which Muse was going for then there is no need for suggestions from us players. They want to know what we want.

 Thanks again for your input and criticism.
  -Skyler Ruin
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 03:19:17 pm by Skyler Ruin »

Offline Veffidia

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2013, 04:40:59 pm »
I kind of see where both sides of the argument are coming from.....fighting breaking out on deck would severely detract from the actual ship combat, especially when people in online games seem to have a CoD mentality about everything.

That said, if it is already possible to jump on someone else's ship, I wouldn't mind there at least being some kind of recognition for doing it.

I've already seen that most ships tend to have 1 Pilot, 1 Gunner, and usually 2 Engineers, but there have been multiple occasions where all the Gunner is really doing is just standing on the same gun at the front & firing their better ammo - it's situational, but I could see how a third Engineer could replace a Gunner depending on what's happening & what ship you are piloting due to the game's current setup.

I don't think adding an extra crew slot/role to allow for specialised Saboteurs would help maintain game balance......though alternatively, giving the Gunner an extra tool he/she could opt to use that would let them tie a rope to one of their gun posts, jump to the nearby enemy ship, plant an explosive of some type on deck, and then finally yell out to be pulled in by his/her crew (crew still on the ship would simply tap the gun that the Gunner was tied to in order to reel them in) sounds as if it could potentially be worked in & still maintain game balance & teamwork.  The ship at risk from the explosive would simply need to spot the Gunner & their tether & whack it with a wrench or something to send the Gunner flying off the ship - an activity the entire crew can be responsible for, especially since combat is usually hectic enough that it may be harder to notice an enemy Gunner dropping out of the sky.

Obviously, using this maneuver would mean your ship is taking a risk to get close & use up a Gunner & ammo/item that you could have loaded into your guns - especially risky if the game is set so that the jumping Gunner would have a NASTY respawn timer to deal with if their safety tether is in any way cut before they return to their original ship.  Ultimately, if the Gunner were to successfully plant a bomb but have their rope yanked/cut to send them flying overboard, the Gunner's only option at that point is to wait out the respawn time.....if the bomb does enough damage to take out the enemy's hull, the ship blows up & resets, but the Gunner is still gone long enough to make it a penalty for failure.

Even if that wouldn't work well in Ship vs Ship combat, the idea could still stand for Adventure Mode if you're jumping onto another ship with the intent to steal item crates along trade routes - no hand to hand combat, but simply needing to look out for that rope to cut.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 04:47:22 pm by Veffidia »

Offline Shinkurex

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2013, 04:49:52 pm »
Hey, I'm happy that you are defending your position. and not arguing for the sake of arguing. For that you get a Salute. You've made some very good points, and I have to rethink my stance on how it is only a solo position. One thing that may differ from the gunner and a saboteur, is the fact that a pilot cannot see a sabotuer, so It's a lot harder to yell/instruct one as to what to sabotage... whereas it's pretty clear when a gunner is not listening/aiming properly

Quote
Even if that wouldn't work well in Ship vs Ship combat, the idea could still stand for Adventure Mode if you're jumping onto another ship with the intent to steal item crates along trade routes - no hand to hand combat, but simply needing to look out for that rope to cut.

I like this idea alot
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 05:05:02 pm by Shinkurex »

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2013, 05:03:41 pm »
It's nice to read so many creative ideas from the community. Unfortunately due to the way the game is built boarding will never be possible.  Currently players cannot interact with the environment, which is one of the measons Muse can't kake the flare gun a captains tool.  Who knows though, maybe some of this may make it into adventure mode.

Offline Sgt. Spoon

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2013, 05:07:02 pm »
Did you manage to stay on the other ship for a substantial amount of time? If so, you might have found another bug.

 Just long enough for the ship to be destroyed. Which was more than 30 seconds.

Well that's a bug, good find

Offline Skyler Ruin

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2013, 06:06:58 pm »
 Great points all around. Thank you, Veffidia for that nice post. It was poignant and not pedantic at all. Thank you, Shinkurex for understanding as well as the salute, my first! And thank you, Capt Smollett for your input.

 It's so wonderful to have such conversations that may prove to improve this already incredible game.

 -Skyler Ruin

Offline Charon

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2013, 06:11:41 pm »
I've tested jump-boarding pretty extensively, and have not yet been able to stand on an enemy ship without the screen fading to black as though I were falling, followed directly by a respawn. I -have- made impact on a ship, and been standing on the ship, but the screen will always go black and respawn me. This has not taken 30 seconds on any occasion.