Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Skyler Ruin on March 11, 2013, 10:44:52 am

Title: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Skyler Ruin on March 11, 2013, 10:44:52 am
 I would like to see a new role that can utilize our ability to move freely about the ships in the game. I have successfully boarded other ships a time or two only to find that I am rather limited to what i can do. By boarding I mean I jumped off my ship as we passed close enough or the other ship went under our ship. I am able to keep my currently boarded ship spotted but I would like to ability to do more.

 I've come up with a few "Sabo" tools already. First is the "Monkey Wrench". After boarding an enemy ship you can place 1 wrench(up to 3 max) that puts a stacking debuff timer on ship components. Place into an enemy engine to damage and slow them down, into hull to debuff armor, into balloon to slowly let air out, into guns to defuff random negative effect and set fire to all if left alone for the duration of the debuff. The severity of the debuff increases with additional stacks(max of 3) not duration.

 Second tool is the "Black Jack" which is used to stun or knock out enemy players. The effect of the black jack would actually dismount gunners from guns, make engineer tools less effective and slow movement speed for fixed amount of time and kick a captain off the helm. This sounds OP, I know, but when used on enemy "Sabos" it knocks them off your ship effectively sending them back to their own ship. This makes having a Saboteur on board your ship useful not just novel.

 Third "Sabo" tool is the "Deck Buffer". As a saboteur you can hold the right mouse button to buff any place on the ship deck to a fine polish. This would take a few moments to make it nice and shiny! The effect would be that crew members would slide across this finely polished surface right passed ship components that need repair or even to mount a gun or the helm. Other sabos would not be effected by this since they have special boots to walk on even the slickest of surfaces.

 Fourth sabo tool is "Bull Horn". This tool is used to taunt players by allowing proximity voice chat. Think of all the damage you could wreak by simply making it known that you have boarded your victims ship and now they must be weary of you on their ship and not just the other ships. Dun dun dun! Also is used to shout back at your own ship to spot the ship you are currently boarded even within clouds. This takes up the Captains Tool slot and is Saboteur only.

 Last tool I came up with is a "Box with two eye holes cut out of it™". This tool is the only auto use tool for this role. Whenever a saboteur stops moving he/she conceals themselves within a small "box with two eye holes cut out of it™" to hide from enemy "Sabos". The effect lasts as long as you stand still and starts as soon as you stop moving. Sabo only tool.
 
 There is one last skill available to all Saboteurs. This skill allows you to stuff "Lochnagar Shot" into any enemy gun you right click on. Since we can not mount enemy guns we can force them to reload Lochnagar Shot even with an enemy already mounted on the gun. This fills the Gunner Tool slot and is available for Saboteur only.

 Saboteur can not use any Engineer Tools as the "Monkey Wrench" takes up the Eng Tool slot and has the same effect as a pipe wrench on friendly ship components. Also works on team mate ships if that extra hand is needed.

 I was working on some concept art for this role when I realized that it is only fitting for a true Saboteur to fit in with his enemies by being able to sport any other roles outfit already acquired by the player. Simplicity is key to this role. Can't get much more simple than using the beautiful outfits already in game for the other roles.

 I think this is a well fleshed out role design and I think many others will like this Role no matter how novel. I believe it has a real place for this niche in this already incredible game. No need to add extra boarding mechanics either... Unless you want to add in the actual first Sabo tool the "Grappling Hook!" Hahaha. Please consider this idea of mine. Any one interested in supporting this idea please leave your feed back. Criticism is always welcome as well as your "thumbs up" and/or "Aye". 

   Thank you
   - Skyler Ruin
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Sgt. Spoon on March 11, 2013, 11:14:55 am
Boarding will never be a part of the game. For more information, here's the FAQ's answer: http://gunsoficarus.com/faq/#15a
and a more detailed explanation: http://gunsoficarus.com/community/blog/about-boarding/

We hope that you will enjoy the game either way. One question though

By boarding I mean I jumped off my ship as we passed close enough or the other ship went under our ship.
Did you manage to stay on the other ship for a substantial amount of time? If so, you might have found another bug.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Phoebe on March 11, 2013, 11:21:39 am
I applaud the effort you put in your post and admire your creativity;- however...

I don't think boarding; or any of the mentioned gameplay suggestions really belong to Guns of Icarus Online.  One of my favorite aspects of this game is the feeling of being tight and entirely dependant on your ship and it's crew members without any of the pew pew or hand to hand combat where personal competitive spirit takes over as I've witnessed in so many other games.

I purchased the game because I really felt like this could be that one game where you really do need to and WANT to work together as a team in the confined space of your own private battle station without having to meet other players toe to toe and defeat them or display superior "Melee" skills in order to gain an advantage.

Boarding would eliminate all that niche.  It would certainly add something neat and entertaining for people who are looking to get more out of Guns of Icarus Online but I don't think it weighs up to the cons of the drastic changes to gameplay that come with it. 

If someone boards an enemy ship;- your crew has a member less while that person plays to his own personal performances;- that's the exact opposite of what Muse - myself and I reckon a lot of other players want to promote which is tight knit team experience.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Jinrai on March 11, 2013, 11:27:56 am
Nice idea, but I basicly agree with everything Phoebe said. Too much of a niche, and your own team going down a man is unacceptable too.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Skyler Ruin on March 11, 2013, 12:22:42 pm
Did you manage to stay on the other ship for a substantial amount of time? If so, you might have found another bug.

 Just long enough for the ship to be destroyed. Which was more than 30 seconds.


 And for the other replies. I thank you for your input, but I do believe that there is a place for this role. I am no game developer, but I see potential for this to be modified in such a way that it could be a viable role choose. The tools I came up with could very well be modified for more friendly ship use. I also have to disagree with your thoughts on this role being less team work oriented. If that were the case then the Gunner is only part of the team due to being on the same ship. If you take focus off that point then you see that the roles do similar things that you dont see as teamwork. They damage enemy components and spot(among other things). I dont believe that being aboard the same vessel necessarily gives them enough to call that team work or taking that away(in the case of the saboteur) makes them any less of a team player.

 Please keep in mind that Im not a game designer or developer. I am just a passionate player with ideas. I have no doubts that if this idea is liked it can be worked in and modified to fit with team play. Also take into account that you face the choice of risk/reward with being "a man down" as someone stated. This is the same as having all 4 crew members being gunners. If you broaden your views you might see how this role can play well with others ! No manipulation required.

 Teamwork is what you make it. A good example of odd man out is the Goalie in soccer/football. You dont see the team as a man down since you have a goalie all by himself filling his/hers particular role, right? He isnt on the field or as mobile as the other players and he isnt on the offensive. Thou the goalie is definitely part of the team. I know this is not the same game as soccer, but I hope you see where I am coming from. Please do not dismiss my idea too lightly and thank you again for your views and criticism.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Cpt. Yami on March 11, 2013, 12:57:06 pm
A nice idea, but I don't think its feasable with the current crew sizes. On any of the current ships you really need the crew to be active on your own ship. Right now there a 4-man crew limit. Someone has to fly the bloody thing, so basicly 3 people to keep your ship together and destroy others. Minus 1/2 gunner/s, because lets face it, they can't rebuild for poop. Were you to successfully board one of those ships with said crew composition as mentioned before, you can literally destroy ships by simply camping the engineer with the black jack, making him unable to rebuild when the need is dire. With the current build you proposed here would make it far to unbalanced for a game which focuses specifically on airship combat. A nice idea though, and perhaps can be implemented at a later stage once(or if) larger crews become available.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Skyler Ruin on March 11, 2013, 01:27:30 pm
A nice idea, but I don't think its feasable with the current crew sizes. On any of the current ships you really need the crew to be active on your own ship. Right now there a 4-man crew limit. Someone has to fly the bloody thing, so basicly 3 people to keep your ship together and destroy others. Minus 1/2 gunner/s, because lets face it, they can't rebuild for poop. Were you to successfully board one of those ships with said crew composition as mentioned before, you can literally destroy ships by simply camping the engineer with the black jack, making him unable to rebuild when the need is dire. With the current build you proposed here would make it far to unbalanced for a game which focuses specifically on airship combat. A nice idea though, and perhaps can be implemented at a later stage once(or if) larger crews become available.

To your point of camping the hull. If the enemy has a Saboteur he can blackjack you and you will be kicked from their ship back to your own. Also his crew would be "down a man". Risk verse reward. It's a real choice. Not a problem.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Shinkurex on March 11, 2013, 01:31:27 pm
The problem with this role, is that it's boarding... It would be fun I'm sure, but it would break the current feel of the game, and go against everything that Muse has been going for with team play... Saboteur is essentially a solo strategy
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Skyler Ruin on March 11, 2013, 03:08:51 pm
 I'm sorry, Shinkurex, but I disagree. Being on the same ship does not make you a team. Team work does. How is it any different from a gunners "teamwork"? Consider what a gunner does. They mount a gun, choose an ammo and hopefully shoot at the same ship as the other gunner. They can also help repair if they are one of those good gunners that is aware of their surroundings. Which part of that is team work? If you can answer that then you will see how it can apply to the Saboteur as well. You can create ways for them to be team oriented. The design I thought up is based around team work. Any role can be played as a non team player. The fact that we choose to play as a team is what makes it a team. So it is really based upon your own perspective and what you feel team work is(or what you've been told it is).

 So far I've only seen one legit reason against my idea. That is that Muse deciding against boarding. They said it was considered a lot. That means it was a question at some point and the ideas for it haven't fit the feel of the  game. It's possible that an idea outside of Muse might change that. I understand that people like to shoot down other peoples imaginings, but instead of pointing out the holes in it maybe we could fill them with support from your own ideas. If the game in its current state is the original idea and that which Muse was going for then there is no need for suggestions from us players. They want to know what we want.

 Thanks again for your input and criticism.
  -Skyler Ruin
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Veffidia on March 11, 2013, 04:40:59 pm
I kind of see where both sides of the argument are coming from.....fighting breaking out on deck would severely detract from the actual ship combat, especially when people in online games seem to have a CoD mentality about everything.

That said, if it is already possible to jump on someone else's ship, I wouldn't mind there at least being some kind of recognition for doing it.

I've already seen that most ships tend to have 1 Pilot, 1 Gunner, and usually 2 Engineers, but there have been multiple occasions where all the Gunner is really doing is just standing on the same gun at the front & firing their better ammo - it's situational, but I could see how a third Engineer could replace a Gunner depending on what's happening & what ship you are piloting due to the game's current setup.

I don't think adding an extra crew slot/role to allow for specialised Saboteurs would help maintain game balance......though alternatively, giving the Gunner an extra tool he/she could opt to use that would let them tie a rope to one of their gun posts, jump to the nearby enemy ship, plant an explosive of some type on deck, and then finally yell out to be pulled in by his/her crew (crew still on the ship would simply tap the gun that the Gunner was tied to in order to reel them in) sounds as if it could potentially be worked in & still maintain game balance & teamwork.  The ship at risk from the explosive would simply need to spot the Gunner & their tether & whack it with a wrench or something to send the Gunner flying off the ship - an activity the entire crew can be responsible for, especially since combat is usually hectic enough that it may be harder to notice an enemy Gunner dropping out of the sky.

Obviously, using this maneuver would mean your ship is taking a risk to get close & use up a Gunner & ammo/item that you could have loaded into your guns - especially risky if the game is set so that the jumping Gunner would have a NASTY respawn timer to deal with if their safety tether is in any way cut before they return to their original ship.  Ultimately, if the Gunner were to successfully plant a bomb but have their rope yanked/cut to send them flying overboard, the Gunner's only option at that point is to wait out the respawn time.....if the bomb does enough damage to take out the enemy's hull, the ship blows up & resets, but the Gunner is still gone long enough to make it a penalty for failure.

Even if that wouldn't work well in Ship vs Ship combat, the idea could still stand for Adventure Mode if you're jumping onto another ship with the intent to steal item crates along trade routes - no hand to hand combat, but simply needing to look out for that rope to cut.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Shinkurex on March 11, 2013, 04:49:52 pm
Hey, I'm happy that you are defending your position. and not arguing for the sake of arguing. For that you get a Salute. You've made some very good points, and I have to rethink my stance on how it is only a solo position. One thing that may differ from the gunner and a saboteur, is the fact that a pilot cannot see a sabotuer, so It's a lot harder to yell/instruct one as to what to sabotage... whereas it's pretty clear when a gunner is not listening/aiming properly

Quote
Even if that wouldn't work well in Ship vs Ship combat, the idea could still stand for Adventure Mode if you're jumping onto another ship with the intent to steal item crates along trade routes - no hand to hand combat, but simply needing to look out for that rope to cut.

I like this idea alot
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Captain Smollett on March 11, 2013, 05:03:41 pm
It's nice to read so many creative ideas from the community. Unfortunately due to the way the game is built boarding will never be possible.  Currently players cannot interact with the environment, which is one of the measons Muse can't kake the flare gun a captains tool.  Who knows though, maybe some of this may make it into adventure mode.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Sgt. Spoon on March 11, 2013, 05:07:02 pm
Did you manage to stay on the other ship for a substantial amount of time? If so, you might have found another bug.

 Just long enough for the ship to be destroyed. Which was more than 30 seconds.

Well that's a bug, good find
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Skyler Ruin on March 11, 2013, 06:06:58 pm
 Great points all around. Thank you, Veffidia for that nice post. It was poignant and not pedantic at all. Thank you, Shinkurex for understanding as well as the salute, my first! And thank you, Capt Smollett for your input.

 It's so wonderful to have such conversations that may prove to improve this already incredible game.

 -Skyler Ruin
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Charon on March 11, 2013, 06:11:41 pm
I've tested jump-boarding pretty extensively, and have not yet been able to stand on an enemy ship without the screen fading to black as though I were falling, followed directly by a respawn. I -have- made impact on a ship, and been standing on the ship, but the screen will always go black and respawn me. This has not taken 30 seconds on any occasion.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: HamsterIV on March 11, 2013, 06:22:58 pm
I'm sorry, Shinkurex, but I disagree. Being on the same ship does not make you a team. Team work does. How is it any different from a gunners "teamwork"? Consider what a gunner does. They mount a gun, choose an ammo and hopefully shoot at the same ship as the other gunner. They can also help repair if they are one of those good gunners that is aware of their surroundings. Which part of that is team work? If you can answer that then you will see how it can apply to the Saboteur as well. You can create ways for them to be team oriented. The design I thought up is based around team work. Any role can be played as a non team player. The fact that we choose to play as a team is what makes it a team. So it is really based upon your own perspective and what you feel team work is(or what you've been told it is).

Gunner's contribute to the team by breaking/disabling enemy guns and giving enemy gungineers something better to do than shoot. They are also the ones with the best look out positions and often are the ones to put mark on the target. Most importantly they listen to the captain and run to the guns the captain says will have target while ignoring targets the captain says are low priority.

Being on the same ship actually does make you a team.  Every one can see where every one else is on the ship, people who are in the wrong location will be told where to go. No one can contribute to the over all battle with out the help of another person on the ship. You can't shoot without the pilot putting guns on target, you can't turn if the engineers don't fix the turning engines, and you can't keep the ship in the air if the gunners don't "discourage" the enemy ship from shooting at you.

An airship boarding and sabotage game would be a lot of fun. One day I hope somebody makes such a game, but Guns of Icarus is not that game. Converting Guns of Icarus to that game, while possible, would remove what many of us love about Guns of Icarus as it is today.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Pickle on March 11, 2013, 06:32:58 pm
I'm not keen on it.

a) It's boarding, and that's been ruled out already.  In part because of b).

b) It opens the door to anti-personnel weapons and combat and that is a significant change to the current feel and playing style of the game.  Crew members have no "health" as such, so a change to the game mechanics would also be required.

c) Introducing a saboteur without suggesting a skill involving a sabot thrown into one of the many rotating cogs and devices that populate the ship shows a distinct lack of style.. ..  8)
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Skyler Ruin on March 11, 2013, 11:41:41 pm
I've tested jump-boarding pretty extensively, and have not yet been able to stand on an enemy ship without the screen fading to black as though I were falling, followed directly by a respawn. I -have- made impact on a ship, and been standing on the ship, but the screen will always go black and respawn me. This has not taken 30 seconds on any occasion.

I'm sorry our experiences in game differ. That is to be expected from online games, especially those still in development.


I'm not keen on it.

a) It's boarding, and that's been ruled out already.  In part because of b).

b) It opens the door to anti-personnel weapons and combat and that is a significant change to the current feel and playing style of the game.  Crew members have no "health" as such, so a change to the game mechanics would also be required.

c) Introducing a saboteur without suggesting a skill involving a sabot thrown into one of the many rotating cogs and devices that populate the ship shows a distinct lack of style.. ..  8)

I dont feel that "A" is an adequate reason to rule out my idea. As for "B" there is no need for players to have health. So no need for mechanic change. Thou any addition to the game would require effort. No reason to rule it out due to work having to be done. And "C", well i dont know what a sabot is beyond a wooden shoe and ammunition support sabots. I think the monkey wrench takes the place of what you are referring to.


Gunner's contribute to the team by breaking/disabling enemy guns and giving enemy gungineers something better to do than shoot. They are also the ones with the best look out positions and often are the ones to put mark on the target. Most importantly they listen to the captain and run to the guns the captain says will have target while ignoring targets the captain says are low priority.


The point of answering that question was not for my benefit. I simply was showing that you can pick at any role to find ways to call it solo oriented and you could also give it team oriented style depending on how you play it with your team. I stand firm on my belief in the idea that being on the same does not make you a team. However, being on the same boat does allow you to work as a team, thou the opposite does not necessarily have to be true.

Thank you all for your wonderful comments.
 -Skyler Ruin
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Lord Dick Tim on March 12, 2013, 12:14:23 am
I gotta say I like how your keeping your course on this conversation and showing a level of conversational skill with debate that is usually lacking in such a stacked opposition.   A salute for you sir, it'll never happen, but your arguments and logic are very sound to consider new approaches to this old debate.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Skyler Ruin on March 12, 2013, 12:48:49 am
I gotta say I like how your keeping your course on this conversation and showing a level of conversational skill with debate that is usually lacking in such a stacked opposition.   A salute for you sir, it'll never happen, but your arguments and logic are very sound to consider new approaches to this old debate.

Thank you kindly, good sir.

I do feel that much effort is being devoted to shutting down my entire idea due to a few parts of the whole. The idea for this role is made of several smaller ideas. Some of which may not fit the game and others may prove to improve the game while keeping the original feel. Sadly it gets little support after the replies against boarding. So much effort is placed into testifying to the sacred never changing ways of GOIO.

 I'm not sure that a truly open forum is actually the best place to have these kinds of discussions. No way to keep the town drunks from weighing in(not that any of you that have already replied are town drunks) and no way to I.D. people at the door. I think the point is lost on many, while I hold out with hope that the right people do see it.

 Tried to add some humor in there thou it may have come across as defensive, backhanded or passive aggressive. LOL oh well. I really do appreciate all the views and voiced opinions. Thank you all.
 -Skyler Ruin
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Pickle on March 12, 2013, 05:12:59 am
I dont feel that "A" is an adequate reason to rule out my idea. As for "B" there is no need for players to have health. So no need for mechanic change. Thou any addition to the game would require effort. No reason to rule it out due to work having to be done. And "C", well i dont know what a sabot is beyond a wooden shoe and ammunition support sabots. I think the monkey wrench takes the place of what you are referring to.

I despair of education these days.. . saboteur/sabotage derives from sabot (wooden shoe) and one of the possible sources is the act of workers throughing their wooden shoes into the mechanisms of the machinery in an act of protest/rebellion.


Please forgive people if the reasons for not adding boarding aren't discussed fully on your thread, they've been extensively debated in the past.

There is presently no aspect of the game that allows you to specifically target or cause direct harm to an individual player.  All damage is directed against the ship, players do not die or suffer injury.  Ships are destroyed, crews respawn with their ship none the worse for wear.  To introduce boarding and black-jacking, etc. is to fundementally change the ethic of the game by introducing direct violence against the person of the player.  As soon as direct personal injury to characters is added to a game the light-hearted nature of play that charaterises much of the fun of playing GOIO is put into serious jeopardy.  You need to address this consideration if you want to promote a form of boarding.


And finally,

- You start your game and half-way through wonder where your crew has all gone because they've all jumped off to go sab'ing and left you alone.  WTF?

- Some bright spark realises that he can jump off his ship onto a team mates ship just as easily as an enemy ship and you now have a Galleon battlewagon with every gun manned and two engineers camping the hull whilst the engineer-pilot camps the balloon, whilst two under-manned squids play the runaround on the edge of the map.

- Everybody on a ship decides to play saboteur and they all jump off to go boarding, not unforeseen as the gunner-captain is popular with some players at the moment, what next?
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Charon on March 12, 2013, 05:20:47 am
Quote

I'm sorry our experiences in game differ. That is to be expected from online games, especially those still in development.


My previous statement remains the same across the board for the players I know that have tried this (the entire Black Omen crew). You're saying you were able to do it: Could you re-create the conditions under which you were successful and record the outcome? I'm sure this would be useful for the Dev Team.

By the by, I'm not really sure why you're sorry, but you're forgiven?
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Skyler Ruin on March 12, 2013, 09:02:43 am
 Thank you, Hubert Pickle for the lesson. It's nice to know people out there have such knowledge of awesome things. Also there is no reason for a pro/anti boarding debate on this thread. I understand that. I feel it has no place here and I dont hold it against anyone for not discussing their views on boarding at great depth. However, the idea as a whole is being overlooked, at times, due to one part(boarding) that isn't crucial to the other ideas present.

 Your insight and views are most enjoyable to read and for that I am appreciative. Thank you.

Quote

I'm sorry our experiences in game differ. That is to be expected from online games, especially those still in development.


My previous statement remains the same across the board for the players I know that have tried this (the entire Black Omen crew). You're saying you were able to do it: Could you re-create the conditions under which you were successful and record the outcome? I'm sure this would be useful for the Dev Team.

By the by, I'm not really sure why you're sorry, but you're forgiven?

Being apologetic is a reflex caused by my upbringing. I flinch at anything that may resemble confrontation then I apologize in case my reaction is misplaced. So there is your answer to that and thank you for your forgiveness. Ha ha. I love how these chats are going here.

On another note, my computer is not suited for multitasking. Honestly I can barely play the game on the lowest settings and still get terrible freezing/latency issues. I wish this weren't the case. I would love to be of more help to the developers of this awesome game.

 Thanks for keeping this going this far. I still believe there is room for new ideas that enhance and/or compliment the games current style or feel and would not be so intrusive as to break its current state.

 You guys are great! Thanks again
 -Skyler Ruin
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: N-Sunderland on March 12, 2013, 09:29:28 am
You know Skyler, even if I disagree with your idea (for reasons mentioned by others), it's great to see you trying to contribute to the game like this. Most people will just play and not think even try to think of new ideas or developments, while others try really hard to think up things that would improve the game. It's awesome to see you doing just that.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Skyler Ruin on March 12, 2013, 11:10:02 am
You know Skyler, even if I disagree with your idea (for reasons mentioned by others), it's great to see you trying to contribute to the game like this. Most people will just play and not think even try to think of new ideas or developments, while others try really hard to think up things that would improve the game. It's awesome to see you doing just that.

 Thank you kindly, for your words give me hope. I believe this to be the call of the community. Many will weigh in while the few fuel innovation and progress. Support is always desired as well ^^.

 -Skyler Ruin
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Pickle on March 12, 2013, 11:20:44 am
Skyler.. whilst your idea doesn't fit into GOIO as I see it, I think you may have the basis for an alternative game.  Something taking inspiration from an earlier period than GOIO takes as its premise, of Galleons and Sloops, fixed carronades and light swivel guns, marine boarding parties and snipers in the rigging.  Something that might also cater for those wanting airships with much larger crews.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Coldcurse on March 18, 2013, 08:16:23 am
i think your better off by making a other role that can,

-listen to enemy voice chat.
-have a little radar system (item based-ish)
-see the health of each engine/gun that are on the enemy ship (with different binocular)
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: -Muse- Cullen on March 18, 2013, 02:01:11 pm
I think that, if a new role is included, it should fill a niche that hasn't been filled yet- no overlaps. The Saboteur role does alright in that category.

The pilot controls the ship,
the gunner damages and disables the enemy ship, and
the engineer keeps the ship from being damaged and disabled.

The gunner and the engineer both have roles that are intertwined, but the pilot only has other pilots to worry about. Maneuvers are what the role is all about: ramming, lining up shots, evading, hiding, and losing distance.

A counter to the pilot's role would be something that is aimed at removing the effectiveness of those maneuvers, may it be through disabling, finding/spotting, and in general, making the pilot's job harder. However, all of these counters are filled by the current roles. Finding and spotting is filled by both the engineer and gunner if they choose the spyglass, the gunner acts as the disabler by attacking certain guns, and enemy pilots are the primary difficult objective due to their control of the entire vessel.

I have not read many responses to this post, so I am simply just stating my direct response to your idea.

The monkey wrench (which is another word for pipe wrench, which does exist currently) would act like a manual flame charge dispenser, that also nerfs systems. Unless this is a permanent thing for a minute or something, a few whacks will remove the hindrance, which would be a complete bummer due to the fact that the saboteur would have had to board the ship in some timely fashion, and a debuff that could be removed with a quick repair would not be a good payoff. The constant, irreparable damage would be unfair if a sabo was able to hit the hull, engines, and balloon, as it would require constant attention from an engineer.

The blackjack could be a completely overpowered tool if it wasn't balanced correctly. The way you put it, it seems like once a saboteur is on your ship, you need a blackjack to get him off- what happens if there isn't a sabo? A constant pest would ruin a ship's chances. This would make having a sabo a required thing in order to counter itself. If an entire team went sabo, and launched itself onto a ship pirate style, they could stunlock the crew with blackjacks while they nerf their systems with damage over time, and then allowing an ally to destroy them as the unpiloted ship flys away to safety. Once the ship dies, they can all just respawn on their ship half a mile away.

Deck buffer is clever, but, once again, going through all of the hoops required to get onto an enemy ship wouldn't really be worth just mildly inconveniencing people by sliding around. If anything, they could just slide into walls in order to stop momentum and keep on repairing. And those that stand still, like the gunners and pilot, would not really be affected. Your own ship would be better off with an extra gunner, than impeding enemy engineers from moving, not repairing.

Bull horn is a captain slot, which means that all sabos would take this. The trolling and ear-blaring, speaker-bursting spams would be terrible. Assuming that a ship has to be close to each other in order to board(You even said, "No need to add extra boarding mechanics"), the act of shouting out positions doesn't sound very effective- unless the sabo plans on being on the ship for a very long time, or even after his own ship is destroyed. This brings me back to the fact that a sabo would need to be around in order to counter a sabo.

And lastly, "Box with two eye holes cut out of it™" is a counter for enemy sabos when you are on an enemy ship. This makes it a fight to see who can get a sabo on the other ship first. Once that happens, he can just sit there and effectively remove a player from the game, because he has to be on the lookout for that camping sabo, or else his ship will be tormented. Sabos counter sabos counter sabos. Its starting to sound like this role is just going to be fighting itself, with little help to the overall fight on both ships. Because the monkey wrench is a default loadout choice, it also means that their main intention is to board. However, they have to be on their own ship to fight other sabos, which renders every tool, except the blackjack, completely worthless. I don't think that's a very good choice.

Stuffing Lochnagar Shot into an enemy gun would be an annoying, ship-breaking choice, so why even bother using the monkey wrench when you can disable the ship's ability to fight?


The Saboteur role is an interesting idea, but I feel that roles would have to be centered around your own ship's operations in order to keep it fair. Coldcurse mentioned listening to enemy voice chat, having a radar, and seeing health. All of these are supportive, and would not ruin a ship's chances if it didn't have those tools. However, sabo would become required in order to deal with itself.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Coldcurse on March 21, 2013, 05:17:21 am
i made a new post for the scientist role https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,346.0.html (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,346.0.html)
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: krait on March 21, 2013, 11:40:50 pm
One effect of boarding (don't know if this has been mentioned) is that you'd have to be able to see the enemy crew before you get on their ship (to know where to board most safely); if you can see the enemy crew, then it'd be hard to justify not being able to shoot the enemy crew with mercs, carronades, flamers, etc. Of course, that'd unbalance the game, so they wouldn't allow it (one hwacha salvo and the enemy crew on exposed decks would be dead for a few seconds -- note that all ships' helms are on exposed decks), and with unkillable but visible people, you'd get lots of "wontfix" bug reports.
Title: Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
Post by: Pickle on March 22, 2013, 06:55:49 am
You can see the enemy crew now.

At least if you have your video settings set to show them.