Author Topic: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"  (Read 7736 times)

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2013, 06:22:58 pm »
I'm sorry, Shinkurex, but I disagree. Being on the same ship does not make you a team. Team work does. How is it any different from a gunners "teamwork"? Consider what a gunner does. They mount a gun, choose an ammo and hopefully shoot at the same ship as the other gunner. They can also help repair if they are one of those good gunners that is aware of their surroundings. Which part of that is team work? If you can answer that then you will see how it can apply to the Saboteur as well. You can create ways for them to be team oriented. The design I thought up is based around team work. Any role can be played as a non team player. The fact that we choose to play as a team is what makes it a team. So it is really based upon your own perspective and what you feel team work is(or what you've been told it is).

Gunner's contribute to the team by breaking/disabling enemy guns and giving enemy gungineers something better to do than shoot. They are also the ones with the best look out positions and often are the ones to put mark on the target. Most importantly they listen to the captain and run to the guns the captain says will have target while ignoring targets the captain says are low priority.

Being on the same ship actually does make you a team.  Every one can see where every one else is on the ship, people who are in the wrong location will be told where to go. No one can contribute to the over all battle with out the help of another person on the ship. You can't shoot without the pilot putting guns on target, you can't turn if the engineers don't fix the turning engines, and you can't keep the ship in the air if the gunners don't "discourage" the enemy ship from shooting at you.

An airship boarding and sabotage game would be a lot of fun. One day I hope somebody makes such a game, but Guns of Icarus is not that game. Converting Guns of Icarus to that game, while possible, would remove what many of us love about Guns of Icarus as it is today.

Offline Pickle

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2013, 06:32:58 pm »
I'm not keen on it.

a) It's boarding, and that's been ruled out already.  In part because of b).

b) It opens the door to anti-personnel weapons and combat and that is a significant change to the current feel and playing style of the game.  Crew members have no "health" as such, so a change to the game mechanics would also be required.

c) Introducing a saboteur without suggesting a skill involving a sabot thrown into one of the many rotating cogs and devices that populate the ship shows a distinct lack of style.. ..  8)

Offline Skyler Ruin

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2013, 11:41:41 pm »
I've tested jump-boarding pretty extensively, and have not yet been able to stand on an enemy ship without the screen fading to black as though I were falling, followed directly by a respawn. I -have- made impact on a ship, and been standing on the ship, but the screen will always go black and respawn me. This has not taken 30 seconds on any occasion.

I'm sorry our experiences in game differ. That is to be expected from online games, especially those still in development.


I'm not keen on it.

a) It's boarding, and that's been ruled out already.  In part because of b).

b) It opens the door to anti-personnel weapons and combat and that is a significant change to the current feel and playing style of the game.  Crew members have no "health" as such, so a change to the game mechanics would also be required.

c) Introducing a saboteur without suggesting a skill involving a sabot thrown into one of the many rotating cogs and devices that populate the ship shows a distinct lack of style.. ..  8)

I dont feel that "A" is an adequate reason to rule out my idea. As for "B" there is no need for players to have health. So no need for mechanic change. Thou any addition to the game would require effort. No reason to rule it out due to work having to be done. And "C", well i dont know what a sabot is beyond a wooden shoe and ammunition support sabots. I think the monkey wrench takes the place of what you are referring to.


Gunner's contribute to the team by breaking/disabling enemy guns and giving enemy gungineers something better to do than shoot. They are also the ones with the best look out positions and often are the ones to put mark on the target. Most importantly they listen to the captain and run to the guns the captain says will have target while ignoring targets the captain says are low priority.


The point of answering that question was not for my benefit. I simply was showing that you can pick at any role to find ways to call it solo oriented and you could also give it team oriented style depending on how you play it with your team. I stand firm on my belief in the idea that being on the same does not make you a team. However, being on the same boat does allow you to work as a team, thou the opposite does not necessarily have to be true.

Thank you all for your wonderful comments.
 -Skyler Ruin
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 12:02:12 am by Skyler Ruin »

Offline Lord Dick Tim

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2013, 12:14:23 am »
I gotta say I like how your keeping your course on this conversation and showing a level of conversational skill with debate that is usually lacking in such a stacked opposition.   A salute for you sir, it'll never happen, but your arguments and logic are very sound to consider new approaches to this old debate.

Offline Skyler Ruin

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2013, 12:48:49 am »
I gotta say I like how your keeping your course on this conversation and showing a level of conversational skill with debate that is usually lacking in such a stacked opposition.   A salute for you sir, it'll never happen, but your arguments and logic are very sound to consider new approaches to this old debate.

Thank you kindly, good sir.

I do feel that much effort is being devoted to shutting down my entire idea due to a few parts of the whole. The idea for this role is made of several smaller ideas. Some of which may not fit the game and others may prove to improve the game while keeping the original feel. Sadly it gets little support after the replies against boarding. So much effort is placed into testifying to the sacred never changing ways of GOIO.

 I'm not sure that a truly open forum is actually the best place to have these kinds of discussions. No way to keep the town drunks from weighing in(not that any of you that have already replied are town drunks) and no way to I.D. people at the door. I think the point is lost on many, while I hold out with hope that the right people do see it.

 Tried to add some humor in there thou it may have come across as defensive, backhanded or passive aggressive. LOL oh well. I really do appreciate all the views and voiced opinions. Thank you all.
 -Skyler Ruin

Offline Pickle

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2013, 05:12:59 am »
I dont feel that "A" is an adequate reason to rule out my idea. As for "B" there is no need for players to have health. So no need for mechanic change. Thou any addition to the game would require effort. No reason to rule it out due to work having to be done. And "C", well i dont know what a sabot is beyond a wooden shoe and ammunition support sabots. I think the monkey wrench takes the place of what you are referring to.

I despair of education these days.. . saboteur/sabotage derives from sabot (wooden shoe) and one of the possible sources is the act of workers throughing their wooden shoes into the mechanisms of the machinery in an act of protest/rebellion.


Please forgive people if the reasons for not adding boarding aren't discussed fully on your thread, they've been extensively debated in the past.

There is presently no aspect of the game that allows you to specifically target or cause direct harm to an individual player.  All damage is directed against the ship, players do not die or suffer injury.  Ships are destroyed, crews respawn with their ship none the worse for wear.  To introduce boarding and black-jacking, etc. is to fundementally change the ethic of the game by introducing direct violence against the person of the player.  As soon as direct personal injury to characters is added to a game the light-hearted nature of play that charaterises much of the fun of playing GOIO is put into serious jeopardy.  You need to address this consideration if you want to promote a form of boarding.


And finally,

- You start your game and half-way through wonder where your crew has all gone because they've all jumped off to go sab'ing and left you alone.  WTF?

- Some bright spark realises that he can jump off his ship onto a team mates ship just as easily as an enemy ship and you now have a Galleon battlewagon with every gun manned and two engineers camping the hull whilst the engineer-pilot camps the balloon, whilst two under-manned squids play the runaround on the edge of the map.

- Everybody on a ship decides to play saboteur and they all jump off to go boarding, not unforeseen as the gunner-captain is popular with some players at the moment, what next?

Offline Charon

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2013, 05:20:47 am »
Quote

I'm sorry our experiences in game differ. That is to be expected from online games, especially those still in development.


My previous statement remains the same across the board for the players I know that have tried this (the entire Black Omen crew). You're saying you were able to do it: Could you re-create the conditions under which you were successful and record the outcome? I'm sure this would be useful for the Dev Team.

By the by, I'm not really sure why you're sorry, but you're forgiven?

Offline Skyler Ruin

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2013, 09:02:43 am »
 Thank you, Hubert Pickle for the lesson. It's nice to know people out there have such knowledge of awesome things. Also there is no reason for a pro/anti boarding debate on this thread. I understand that. I feel it has no place here and I dont hold it against anyone for not discussing their views on boarding at great depth. However, the idea as a whole is being overlooked, at times, due to one part(boarding) that isn't crucial to the other ideas present.

 Your insight and views are most enjoyable to read and for that I am appreciative. Thank you.

Quote

I'm sorry our experiences in game differ. That is to be expected from online games, especially those still in development.


My previous statement remains the same across the board for the players I know that have tried this (the entire Black Omen crew). You're saying you were able to do it: Could you re-create the conditions under which you were successful and record the outcome? I'm sure this would be useful for the Dev Team.

By the by, I'm not really sure why you're sorry, but you're forgiven?

Being apologetic is a reflex caused by my upbringing. I flinch at anything that may resemble confrontation then I apologize in case my reaction is misplaced. So there is your answer to that and thank you for your forgiveness. Ha ha. I love how these chats are going here.

On another note, my computer is not suited for multitasking. Honestly I can barely play the game on the lowest settings and still get terrible freezing/latency issues. I wish this weren't the case. I would love to be of more help to the developers of this awesome game.

 Thanks for keeping this going this far. I still believe there is room for new ideas that enhance and/or compliment the games current style or feel and would not be so intrusive as to break its current state.

 You guys are great! Thanks again
 -Skyler Ruin
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 09:11:03 am by Skyler Ruin »

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2013, 09:29:28 am »
You know Skyler, even if I disagree with your idea (for reasons mentioned by others), it's great to see you trying to contribute to the game like this. Most people will just play and not think even try to think of new ideas or developments, while others try really hard to think up things that would improve the game. It's awesome to see you doing just that.

Offline Skyler Ruin

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2013, 11:10:02 am »
You know Skyler, even if I disagree with your idea (for reasons mentioned by others), it's great to see you trying to contribute to the game like this. Most people will just play and not think even try to think of new ideas or developments, while others try really hard to think up things that would improve the game. It's awesome to see you doing just that.

 Thank you kindly, for your words give me hope. I believe this to be the call of the community. Many will weigh in while the few fuel innovation and progress. Support is always desired as well ^^.

 -Skyler Ruin

Offline Pickle

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2013, 11:20:44 am »
Skyler.. whilst your idea doesn't fit into GOIO as I see it, I think you may have the basis for an alternative game.  Something taking inspiration from an earlier period than GOIO takes as its premise, of Galleons and Sloops, fixed carronades and light swivel guns, marine boarding parties and snipers in the rigging.  Something that might also cater for those wanting airships with much larger crews.

Offline Coldcurse

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2013, 08:16:23 am »
i think your better off by making a other role that can,

-listen to enemy voice chat.
-have a little radar system (item based-ish)
-see the health of each engine/gun that are on the enemy ship (with different binocular)

Offline -Muse- Cullen

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2013, 02:01:11 pm »
I think that, if a new role is included, it should fill a niche that hasn't been filled yet- no overlaps. The Saboteur role does alright in that category.

The pilot controls the ship,
the gunner damages and disables the enemy ship, and
the engineer keeps the ship from being damaged and disabled.

The gunner and the engineer both have roles that are intertwined, but the pilot only has other pilots to worry about. Maneuvers are what the role is all about: ramming, lining up shots, evading, hiding, and losing distance.

A counter to the pilot's role would be something that is aimed at removing the effectiveness of those maneuvers, may it be through disabling, finding/spotting, and in general, making the pilot's job harder. However, all of these counters are filled by the current roles. Finding and spotting is filled by both the engineer and gunner if they choose the spyglass, the gunner acts as the disabler by attacking certain guns, and enemy pilots are the primary difficult objective due to their control of the entire vessel.

I have not read many responses to this post, so I am simply just stating my direct response to your idea.

The monkey wrench (which is another word for pipe wrench, which does exist currently) would act like a manual flame charge dispenser, that also nerfs systems. Unless this is a permanent thing for a minute or something, a few whacks will remove the hindrance, which would be a complete bummer due to the fact that the saboteur would have had to board the ship in some timely fashion, and a debuff that could be removed with a quick repair would not be a good payoff. The constant, irreparable damage would be unfair if a sabo was able to hit the hull, engines, and balloon, as it would require constant attention from an engineer.

The blackjack could be a completely overpowered tool if it wasn't balanced correctly. The way you put it, it seems like once a saboteur is on your ship, you need a blackjack to get him off- what happens if there isn't a sabo? A constant pest would ruin a ship's chances. This would make having a sabo a required thing in order to counter itself. If an entire team went sabo, and launched itself onto a ship pirate style, they could stunlock the crew with blackjacks while they nerf their systems with damage over time, and then allowing an ally to destroy them as the unpiloted ship flys away to safety. Once the ship dies, they can all just respawn on their ship half a mile away.

Deck buffer is clever, but, once again, going through all of the hoops required to get onto an enemy ship wouldn't really be worth just mildly inconveniencing people by sliding around. If anything, they could just slide into walls in order to stop momentum and keep on repairing. And those that stand still, like the gunners and pilot, would not really be affected. Your own ship would be better off with an extra gunner, than impeding enemy engineers from moving, not repairing.

Bull horn is a captain slot, which means that all sabos would take this. The trolling and ear-blaring, speaker-bursting spams would be terrible. Assuming that a ship has to be close to each other in order to board(You even said, "No need to add extra boarding mechanics"), the act of shouting out positions doesn't sound very effective- unless the sabo plans on being on the ship for a very long time, or even after his own ship is destroyed. This brings me back to the fact that a sabo would need to be around in order to counter a sabo.

And lastly, "Box with two eye holes cut out of it™" is a counter for enemy sabos when you are on an enemy ship. This makes it a fight to see who can get a sabo on the other ship first. Once that happens, he can just sit there and effectively remove a player from the game, because he has to be on the lookout for that camping sabo, or else his ship will be tormented. Sabos counter sabos counter sabos. Its starting to sound like this role is just going to be fighting itself, with little help to the overall fight on both ships. Because the monkey wrench is a default loadout choice, it also means that their main intention is to board. However, they have to be on their own ship to fight other sabos, which renders every tool, except the blackjack, completely worthless. I don't think that's a very good choice.

Stuffing Lochnagar Shot into an enemy gun would be an annoying, ship-breaking choice, so why even bother using the monkey wrench when you can disable the ship's ability to fight?


The Saboteur role is an interesting idea, but I feel that roles would have to be centered around your own ship's operations in order to keep it fair. Coldcurse mentioned listening to enemy voice chat, having a radar, and seeing health. All of these are supportive, and would not ruin a ship's chances if it didn't have those tools. However, sabo would become required in order to deal with itself.

Offline Coldcurse

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2013, 05:17:21 am »

Offline krait

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Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2013, 11:40:50 pm »
One effect of boarding (don't know if this has been mentioned) is that you'd have to be able to see the enemy crew before you get on their ship (to know where to board most safely); if you can see the enemy crew, then it'd be hard to justify not being able to shoot the enemy crew with mercs, carronades, flamers, etc. Of course, that'd unbalance the game, so they wouldn't allow it (one hwacha salvo and the enemy crew on exposed decks would be dead for a few seconds -- note that all ships' helms are on exposed decks), and with unkillable but visible people, you'd get lots of "wontfix" bug reports.