Carronades 1.3.2

[Nidh]

I have a problem with the Gatling's power and arc. I don't know why it was brought up and assumed everyone was okay with it.

[Captain Blueberry]

All in all this game is a bit on the simple side and I doupt something like what's described in that video could be possible in this game.

For example, a Lumberjack will always pop your balloon and there is nothing else you can do with it, or some advanced move to excecute that will pop enemy balloons 'better' other than learning how to aim, and well as there is nothing else an enemy can do about it other than:

What? High Power for low amount of Skill? The Pyramidion enbodies this as pure as it gets.

And the Lumberjack is an example for high skill to power ratio, it needs skill and knowledge of both the pilot and the gunner. And you need a Wingman able to survive two ships. Yeah you can annoy enemy ships, but when they kill your ally without you killing anyone... Plus I personally haven't fought a Lumberspire on long range yet, but I think with the new Artemis we might have a weapon to counter this gun.

And we won't have the same discussions about the Lumberjack as it is. There are other viable long range setups (new Flak much?), which take less skill and are more reliable than a Lumberjack. Yes it is very powerful, as it should be. I have seen many matches where a lumberjack setup backfired.

And the Heavy Carronade, with heavy round, is really not so close range weapon. That a little closer range, than gatling, for example. And no, i don't see a point in getting longer reload time - that not the problem, i think. But a closer range - yes.

Then why should the carronade suddenly be OP? The range increase only has a placebo effect. I think the reason why it suddenly feels OP is because we had the charging gat/mortar pyra which took even less skill and was even more powerful.

Lets count what we have for close range:
Mines: Minejunker ftw, but not for new players. Otherwise it is a support weapon.
Flaregun: The Support weapon of the support weapon.
Flamethrower: Nice, but the same job can be done by the carronade
Carronade: dito.
(Mortar): Very good killer especially at close range, but since the gat changes not as useful as before.

Carronade it is then.

And with all the counter stuff, let's take the Galleon and the Junker as an example. They are good, they can be very good in the right hands but require more skill than a pyra or goldfish. If a new player is fed up with Galleons, tell him to take a blenderfish. Tell him how the gun works and be done with it. It requires less skill than a Galleon and a Junker and is very powerful against them. That doesn't mean he will always win, there are good tactics for Galleons and Junkers to kill a blenderfish. But it is an easy tactic that empowers the new player. So the other way around takes more skill, and that is fine too.

What people are saying though is how much more skill you need to fight a blenderfish. This problem didn't exist before, then you could basically took the metamidion. But now what do we have to fight a blenderfish at close range? Nothing which takes slightly more skill. It takes a lot more skill and experience to fight it and that is what people are complaining about. But that is not the guns fault! Changing the guns is just fighting the symptoms and not the cause.

[Gambrill]

IvKir don't quote me on things i never said. A Buffed balloon can help remove the need for hydrogen, which if you see a blenderfish on the other team you would remove from your equipment (thinking logically if someone is going to target your balloon you don't want to cause damage to it either)

[Echoez]

What? High Power for low amount of Skill? The Pyramidion enbodies this as pure as it gets.

And the Lumberjack is an example for high skill to power ratio, it needs skill and knowledge of both the pilot and the gunner. And you need a Wingman able to survive two ships. Yeah you can annoy enemy ships, but when they kill your ally without you killing anyone... Plus I personally haven't fought a Lumberspire on long range yet, but I think with the new Artemis we might have a weapon to counter this gun.

And we won't have the same discussions about the Lumberjack as it is. There are other viable long range setups (new Flak much?), which take less skill and are more reliable than a Lumberjack. Yes it is very powerful, as it should be. I have seen many matches where a lumberjack setup backfired.

With the same logic, just like the LJ doesn't kill ships by itself, although does so much more effectively that the Carronade due to the massive clip, the Carronade also needs a wingman, especially since we are talking about the Blenderfish is particular. You take too long to kill someone by yourself and just how the enemies can focus a single Galleon, so can they focus a single blenderfish while having less things pointing at them (Galleon having 3 guns in comparison to the Blender's 1) and the Goldfish being a less tankier ship than a Galleon, MUCH less tanky. Though focusing the Goldfish, just like focusing the Galleon is generaly not advised, you are better off focusing the other guy that can actually kill you fast. Which is why I don't get all the whining, the kill builds are still the most dangerous things you have to worry about.

I still don't think the massive power the LJ has at range is justified, especially since the Power/Skill ratio of that gun gets screwed up the closer your target gets. So unless you are the guy that can't hit a brick wall at about 600 meters with that gun while using Lesmok, then I feel bad for you (not you specifically, just saying in general). From my experience of being a realy bad gunner, even I could land shots on ships at roughly 700-800 meters with ease after minimal training with the gun and using Lesmok, then the closer they get, the most shots I can land and I can do so with much more ease than when they where 1500 meters away. In which case, the close you get to that gun AND until you are completely within arming time, the skill it takes use it gets lower and lower while the effective power is still waaaay up there.

It doesn't take much skill to keep someone perma-locked with a Lumberjack on your average pub and the moment they are at the sweet spot just outside the arming time it's piss easy to keep them pinned while they can do absolutely nothing about it since you can sit way above them. At least the carronade has to be way up close and personal and still mostly within your gun arcs while shooting at you.

And with all the counter stuff, let's take the Galleon and the Junker as an example. They are good, they can be very good in the right hands but require more skill than a pyra or goldfish. If a new player is fed up with Galleons, tell him to take a blenderfish. Tell him how the gun works and be done with it. It requires less skill than a Galleon and a Junker and is very powerful against them. That doesn't mean he will always win, there are good tactics for Galleons and Junkers to kill a blenderfish. But it is an easy tactic that empowers the new player.

What people are saying though is how much more you need to know to effectively fight a blenderfish. This problem didn't exist before, then you could basically took the metamidion, but now what do we have to fight a blenderfish for close range? Nothing which takes slightly more skill, it takes a lot more skill and experience to fight it, and that is what people are complaining about. But that is not the guns fault! Changing the guns is just fighting the symptoms and not the cause.

I straight out disagree with the bolded part. Just because a ship is slower or has its guns on the side, doesn't mean it takes more skill to use, it's just a DIFFERENT style of play. Just like the Blenderfish is a good ship against Galleons or Junkers, Galleons and Junkers are very good against other ships, like the Pyramidion. There are counters and counter-strategies for every ship.

Also Power/Skill ratio should be kept in check if you don't want to end up having guns that are completely horrible once you have learnt how to use an other one.

I'm gonna bring TF2 as an example, take the 'Ambassador' that's a revolver for the Spy class, compared to the normal 'Stock' revolver, this one fires 20% slower (not much of a difference in game since you have to wait a bit in order for the recoil to set down) does 15% less damage, but grants you a critical hit (x3 the normal damage) on a headshot, something the normal revolver simply can't do, it can't headshot.

This makes this gun something that I personaly call a 'Skill upgrade', simply put, the Revolver as a gun is obsolete if you can use the Ambassador. Something I never want to see happen in this game. the Lumberjack is already VERY close to overshadowing the Carronade, seeing as how it does way more damage with a much larger clip and has over triple the range of the carronade. The only thing that is holding it back right now is the arming time, which you can't reduce to some extend. I'm not saying the LJ is a clear skill upgrade to the carronade, but it sure as hell is close to being one, which is why I don't want to see further changes to nerf the carronades more.

[Captain Blueberry]

Which is why I don't get all the whining, the kill builds are still the most dangerous things you have to worry about.

And that's the thing about game design. You are absolutely right. There is no objective reason to hate the carronade. But people feel powerless fighting against it. Like I said, as bad as the metamidion was, it was at least an easy tactics for new players against the carronades, it made them feel powerful.

I still don't think the massive power the LJ has at range is justified, especially since the Power/Skill ratio of that gun gets screwed up the closer your target gets. So unless you are the guy that can't hit a brick wall at about 600 meters with that gun while using Lesmok, then I feel bad for you ...

I have to agree. I haven't thought so much about it but it seems more broken than any gun, yet nobody cares .  People don't feel powerless, maybe because they have other long range guns to fight a lumberjack. And there are other guns to effectively snipe.

I straight out disagree with the bolded part. Just because a ship is slower or has its guns on the side, doesn't mean it takes more skill to use, it's just a DIFFERENT style of play.

Again, objectively you are right. But  watch a match of new players. With bloody beginners. What they do, consistently, with whatever ship they happened to take is charge. Even if it is a Spire. Always. That's why I consider Goldfish and Pyra easy ships, beginners can do with them what they would do anyways. I am betting my left nut that this is why the pyra has two front-facing guns. So new player have a ship they can actually use and not feel useless, powerless.

I'm not saying the LJ is a clear skill upgrade to the carronade, but it sure as hell is close to being one, which is why I don't want to see further changes to nerf the carronades more.

And uhm... I completely agree. There is a problem though, people do feel powerless against it. So a counter strategy may not be accessible enough. Or a good alternative for a close range gun for that matter. But it isn't the carronade's fault, as I wrote before.

I remember my experience with the blenderfish. In beginner matches had to fight Hwacha Galleons. Always Hwacha Galeons. It made you feel powerless. You came close, got disabled and were completely useless. Then I stumbled over the Blenderfish. I intuitively learned to sneak up on ships, it was the first empowering experience, I learned something new and I now had a tactic in my repertoire. My first real tactic. Exactly the experience described in the video. And carronades are not very often used in competitive games. The blenderfish is essentially the Noobtube of GOIO, giving new players a positive experience and hooking them up for more. It needs to be easy and it needs to be powerful.

I am starting to write the same thing twice so I stop writing.

[Echoez]

Well, if I remember correctly from people talking about it, Fire based weapons would probably be a very good counter to a Carronade if played right since back then 1 stack of flames would render your gun useless until extinguished, yet, while fire IS buffed now, it only realy is buffed damage wise, not disabling wise. So! There is still a lack of an other close range weapon like the carronade.

Hence why I said carronades should not be touched any further till something else comes around, but quite honestly I think the game is quite balanced as it is right now, despite the fact that I have some problems with some guns being a tad screwed up in some ways, just like I explained about the Lumberjack and why 'It takes more skill to use' is a flawed argument to back up the power the gun has at range.

Close range weapons excell in close range, mid range weapons excell in mid range and long range guns are still good at long range. To me, there is nothing wrong happening when a carronade is one of the better choices if you plan to go all the way in, because that's what the gun was designed for, being a close range brawler without mimicing the ridiculous 10 meter range shotgun of most shooters, Carronades don't shoot cotton candy, they shoot flaming sharpnel that means business, so you better be prepared for it just like your enemies should be prepared for what you have in stock for them.

The Galting is also finally specialized properly, now you have to make a choice:

Get the raw armor stripping power of the Gatling, or get the lesser armor stripping power of the carronade and have a balloon popping utility?

Before 1.3.2, that would be a no brainer, you would get the Gatling cause it was just straight out better because it was horribly fast, but now there is a choice, the Gatling is STILL way better than the carronade on stripping armor and applying pressure on a ship, but the carronade's utility can finally shine a bit.

The only change I can accept is reverting the range buff on both of the carronades and even that I don't realy understand that much, cause I personaly know that the added loading time more than makes up for it, ESPECIALLY considering that it used to have THE fastest reload of any weapon in the whole game.

And carronades are not very often used in competitive games. The blenderfish is essentially the Noobtube of GOIO, giving new players a positive experience and hooking them up for more. It needs to be easy and it needs to be powerful.

I am starting to write the same thing twice so I stop writing.

Also, please do not use terms that indicate that something takes less skill that something else cause many things in this game are equally difficult to pull off. I flew a Blenderfish competitively and I was widely succesful, had our team not been so fresh, we could have achieved many more victories (some technical difficulties got in our way in some games as well which was quite irritating to say the least.)

I've been working hard on this gun and this ship since 1.2, when people didn't even remember these guns actually existed bar a select few, I know I'm not the one to talk and am just some random guy on the internet, but I would kindly ask for everyone here to show some respect to people that worked with this build a lot to try and make it competitve even back then when the Gatling with Heavy clip had 60 bullets and could strip armor twice in a single clip. So yes, please don't go on and call something like the Blenderfish a noobtube when EVERYONE in here has been flying the dreaded Gat/Flak back in 1.2

[Sammy B. T.]

Let the Artemis shoot upwards. Problem solved.

[Gambrill]

Let the Artemis shoot upwards. Problem solved.

[Echoez]

Let the Artemis shoot upwards. Problem solved.

Inclined to say yes, but that would unbalance the current Mercury/Artemis relationship, if the Artemis could aim up, it could disable a Mercury while the Merc can't shoot back and would cause many other problems like making it into a better closer range gun that is isn't supposed to be.

[N-Sunderland]

Let the Artemis shoot upwards. Problem solved.

Eliminates the carronade problem, but creates the Artemis problem. More trouble than it's worth in my opinion.

[shadowsteel]

Hey there

Got your attention? Good.

Okay, this seems to happen after every patch.

Somethings get changed, someone fixates on one item, chaotic and rather lengthy thread ensues. whatevr

So, just to throw my two cents in, there was something I didn't like about the carronade from the start that I feel is rather important.

The carronade is meant to do one thing. Pop balloons and keep an enemy locked down. The carronade does this very well along with some other things.

It trashes  guns and engines and shreds hull.

Notice anything? Like the fact that this gun is great at destroying everything you love and cherish? Seriously, with a half-decent gunner that listens, you can take out anything on their ship with 1 maybe 1 1/2 clips.

It's only weakness is downward arc and short range, both of which can be pretty easily avoided.

I'm not saying it's OP. It can be countered (see about half of the previous posts).

But there's one thing I think should be changed and it's not the gun.

One of the fundamental parts of the game is Spill Damage. Any damage to a destroyed component, spills to the hull and gets modified by the hull.

The balloon is the biggest target on most ships and even with modifiers the carronade does a ton of damage to the hull/armor.

My idea is simple but it effects all damage.

Give all destroyed components a damage modifier.

Yea it's destroyed, but it's still there dammit!

Any damage to destroyed components still spills to hull but is modified by both the hull/armor and also the Destroyed Component modifier.

And to just give it a number say .7 to all damage types.

And that's about it.

[Echoez]

Sniping light guns is a rarity and close to impossible in a heated fight especially with the tiny hitboxes the have, sniping engines maybe.. disagree with the 0.7 on all damage sources, hull modifiers already decrease the Flechette damage it does to a mere 35% and an even worse 20% for the Shatter and makes it much worse at something it's already not that good in, especially with the longer reload cycle.

People always over exaggerate about the Carronade's armor stripping power when in reality it takes around 2-3 clips to destroy it, that's more than enough time to get spanner and mallet hits in (Unless it's a Goldfish or a Squid, but rightly so, these ships have almost no armor anyway). Sure the carronade's burst can take many by suprise, but it's no more than that, a suprise, you will feel it once, next time you know what's there and you're prepared for it, sniping out components is mostly overlooked in favor of focusing on the objective unless it's a Heavy gun you need to take out, in which case you have that ability, but heavy guns are an entirely different matter, Hwacha has the upper hand in range already so it shouldn't be a problem, LJ should keep you down before you get close enough and the Flak.. well it's the Flak, it can't do anything other than blow up ships.

I mean heck, even Gatlings, Mortars and light carronades can disable that gun.. you don't need a weapon focused on disabling just to take down a single carronade..

[Captain Smollett]

Sniping light guns is a rarity and close to impossible in a heated fight especially with the tiny hitboxes the have, sniping engines maybe.. disagree with the 0.7 on all damage sources, hull modifiers already decrease the Flechette damage it does to a mere 35% and an even worse 20% for the Shatter and makes it much worse at something it's already not that good in, especially with the longer reload cycle.

People always over exaggerate about the Carronade's armor stripping power when in reality it takes around 2-3 clips to destroy it, that's more than enough time to get spanner and mallet hits in (Unless it's a Goldfish or a Squid, but rightly so, these ships have almost no armor anyway). Sure the carronade's burst can take many by suprise, but it's no more than that, a suprise, you will feel it once, next time you know what's there and you're prepared for it, sniping out components is mostly overlooked in favor of focusing on the objective unless it's a Heavy gun you need to take out, in which case you have that ability, but heavy guns are an entirely different matter, Hwacha has the upper hand in range already so it shouldn't be a problem, LJ should keep you down before you get close enough and the Flak.. well it's the Flak, it can't do anything other than blow up ships.

I mean heck, even Gatlings, Mortars and light carronades can disable that gun.. you don't need a weapon focused on disabling just to take down a single carronade..

Ok, I guess I have to be that guy but time for a quick math check here.

LJ and heavy carronade do almost the exact same amount of overall damage per minute to armor.  LJ does much more to balloons but can't damage components and has an arming time, Carronade does much more to components but has a max range, these guns currently are well balanced against each other.

Heavy carronade actually does almost as much damage per minute to armor as a chaingun and a good deal more damage to armor than a chaingun with heavy clip.

Great, now that we have our maths right, feel free to carry on, though be aware; any more "facts" are subject to future math checks. 

[Sprayer]

It's not the damage per minute that counts when you can strip hulls in a matter of seconds and cooldowns are a crucial factor to repairs. Apply your math more practical for what you did is no better than a subjective "fact".
Also, the gat/mortar is a gat and a mortar, meaning you dont want your mortar to save its 19 (burst/greased) shots until the hull is stripped, you only need about 9 greased and 7 or 8 unmodified damage shots to finish most ships off.

@Echoes are you sure flechette only deals 35% against armor? I wouldn't trust the matrix the devs put on their website (because they no update). The latest patch note I found that was mentioning modifiers said it deals 40% to armor. (Really old patch notes that actually are the newest mentioning flechette damage)
Sure it's hard to snipe out light guns with heavy clip. What about charged? I find it quite easy to destroy or at least heavily damage light guns with that. The downside is not how "hard" it is to hit those guns, it's the fact that you can only shoot those two shots every 5,5 seconds, so you have to prioritize. Keep the balloon down? Shoot directly at the hull to strip it?

Other than that, I agree with Echoez. Pretty much every build can counter blenderfish if just the people manning the guns are good enough. Smollet's high skill to power ratio comes to mind.

[Echoez]

Ok, I guess I have to be that guy but time for a quick math check here.

LJ and heavy carronade do almost the exact same amount of overall damage per minute to armor.  LJ does much more to balloons but can't damage components and has an arming time, Carronade does much more to components but has a max range, these guns currently are well balanced against each other.

Heavy carronade actually does almost as much damage per minute to armor as a chaingun and a good deal more damage to armor than a chaingun with heavy clip.

Great, now that we have our maths right, feel free to carry on, though be aware; any more "facts" are subject to future math checks.

The problem is, DPM is reduntant in this discussion, you won't be hitting anyone for a whole minute, it's all about the burst damage you can deliver in a clip or two at most and you are forgetting one crusial detail about the LJ, it's massive explosion means that even if you hit hull, you will also damage the balloon (and visa versa), which means that unike the carronade that has to decide what to hit, the LJ can just shoot hull or balloon and take them both down at the same time.

Carronades might have the same DPM as the Gatling in the long run, but that doesn't change the fact that the Gatling can still take the armor out in one go while the carronade waits for a reload, that's the main difference and I think it's enough. (also the Galting has a much longer range)

Also I hope you do take multiple ammo types into account and not just going with the standard Engi-Buff hammer on a gun like this anymore.

For the Gatling: I still insist that it's spread is reduced to 2.5 degrees instead of 3.5 so Greased rounds can work better, that's my only drag with it atm, if that gets fixed then the gun will be more than sweet AND balanced.

It's not the damage per minute that counts when you can strip hulls in a matter of seconds and cooldowns are a crucial factor to repairs.

@Echoes are you sure flechette only deals 35% against armor? I wouldn't trust the matrix the devs put on their website (because they no update). The latest patch note I found that was mentioning modifiers said it deals 40% to armor.
Sure it's hard to snipe out light guns with heavy clip. What about charged? I find it quite easy to destroy or at least heavily damage light guns with that. The downside is not how "hard" it is to hit those guns, it's the fact that you can only shoot those two shots every 5,5 seconds, so you have to prioritize. Keep the balloon down? Shoot directly at the hull to strip it?
good enough.

Bolded message is a massive truth.

Also yes, the modifiers are correct, there is no way Eric would change those without saying anything and they seem to make sense with the numbers I have found AND the damage I actually deal, so it is still 35%, not 40%.

Yes, as I stated earlier in this post, the carronade HAS to choose a target in order to be effective due to the small clip and now much longer reload, you have to commit even more.

Also I suggest you try Incediary if you want utility/weapon disabling, unless you are up against Heavy guns/Engines, then Heavy is your friend.

Other than that, I agree with Echoez. Pretty much every build can counter blenderfish if just the people manning the guns are good enough.

Every ship can counter everything else, unless it's an extreme situation (Squid gets close to a Galleon for example, in which case the Galleon can't do all that much) or the loadout simply doesn't work (4 Flamerthrowers or something, dunno).