The Heavy Carronade is still OP despite its debuffs.
AND
normal carronade.
Relax relax relax.
And thanks for opening this topic.
The Heavy Carronade can 2 shot a balloon from a relatively far distance, not long range, but A LOT farther than most people think, especially with heavy clip (assuming the first hit is not repaired).
The Heavy Carronade can lock down 2 ships at the same time, and has the potential to kill them while doing so.
Going below a Heavy Carronade is not a viable strategy in countering it as that's where it wants you to be in the first place, also most balloons are far enough above the ship that being "below" the Carronade from the helm's view is often misleading.
You can counter it to a degree, but anyone using it to it's full potential is not fun to fly against.
Popping balloons and zoning is the Carronade's purpose, but the armor striping and kill potential are what make Carronades OP.
HOWEVER, thinking of the Goldfish particularly, there are no other 100% reliable heavy weapons for brawling right now. The Hwacha is not very reliable at it's job, and the Flak and Lumberjack are long range support weapons. I feel like the Carronade should have its armor striping power lessened, but at the same time, if you want to fly a kill-oriented Goldfish, the Heavy Carronade is the only reliable option.
I'm sorry, I can't tell if you're joking or not, but the Heavy Carronade is THE easiest to use gun in the game. They require no skill other than looking at your target. The Heavy Carronade is a very safe pick, you take out the balloon or guns on the other ship and they can't shoot back and are out of the fight for the moment. It's not risky, because with heavy clip the range can be relatively very far.
I don't like the power of the Gat-Mortar combo either, never said I did, but that's not what this thread is about. Killing is not difficult with the Carronade if you're using it to its full potential.
The skill and risk of the carronade is dependent on the pilot. An expert pilot with a semi competent crew can make the Carronade unstoppable. It makes this less of a team game and more of a "watch this rockstar pilot dominate a server." The gunners don't have to be experts in accounting for all the variables that effect a bullets path with a close range hit scan weapon like the carronade, and the engineers don't have to work as hard when the ship is not taking hits from a balloon locked opponent.
The crew will have to earn their keep if the pilot messes up, but there are some pilots out here who never mess up. I don't usually fly Carronade ships because I feel it decreases the fun of the game. The enemy crew isn't having fun because all they are doing is desperation repairs, and my crew isn't having as much fun because there is almost no skill to their actions.
Allowing your enemy to get a few licks in before you blow them out of the air prevents rage quits. It also gives your crew better stories to tell. Not "I flew with **** and we were untouchable," but "I saved the ship by getting the hull up right before what would have been a killing blow landed," or "I landed a next to impossible shot even the captain was impressed."
@Serenum My reasons for thinking the carronade are not from being a crybaby about getting killed by it. I fly Goldfish primarily and Blenderfish is one of my most used loadouts. I think the Carronade is slightly overpowered because when I use it I feel bad for the guy on the other end.
I thought your engine power becomes reduced when the balloon is down, plus, what ship other than a Squid could outrun a Goldfish, even without a popped balloon?
Well if we are going for a fix that generally makes the gun harder to use (that's the vibe i'm getting here), then an obvious issue is the "point 'n click" nature of the gun in order to hit things.
Shed some range, give it more ammo per clip (4 due to art style?), but distribute that damage across that bigger clip (so same or less damage now but across 4 shots). Basically, make it more likely to miss and take a smidge longer to cut the balloon.
This is kind of just an "out there" thought.
Well if we are going for a fix that generally makes the gun harder to use (that's the vibe i'm getting here), then an obvious issue is the "point 'n click" nature of the gun in order to hit things.
That sounds like a good idea to me, spreading out the damage would mitigate the "eternal balloon is dead" + "hull armor taking damage" and return it to more of a support zoning weapon than a killing weapon. Only problem would be no clear option for a brawling/killing Goldfish (maybe that's a good thing, encouraging variety? idk). But the Goldfish is a support ship imo anyway. Until the new heavy weapon comes out, depending on what it does.
Zill, stop reading my mind.
they are however really easy, so for less skilled crews it can give an advantage.
As a person who has predominately flown throughout my tenure in goi, I would argue that blenderfish in particular, are not challenging to fly.That's because the goldfish is an easy ship, but still among its front weapon loadouts the carronade is the hardest for the pilot to use effectively.
As a person who has predominately flown throughout my tenure in goi, I would argue that blenderfish in particular, are not challenging to fly.Challenging, I guess not amazingly so, no.
As a person who has predominately flown throughout my tenure in goi, I would argue that blenderfish in particular, are not challenging to fly.That's because the goldfish is an easy ship, but still among its front weapon loadouts the carronade is the hardest for the pilot to use effectively.
And the goldfish isn't the only ship that can use a carronade you know. You can't balance a weapon around a single ship.
Otherwise I could just say "hey using the carronade is super hard on a Spire, you need to buff that weapon".
That's because the goldfish is an easy ship, but still among its front weapon loadouts the carronade is the hardest for the pilot to use effectively.
In the highest level play using a blenderfish is a liability and in high level play it doesn't confer any major advantages. However in lower level play, due to its ease of use, the blenderfish can make an average pilot and crew into rockstars.
I would like to see the carronades' power reduced at longer ranges. It fires a bunch of "pellet" scan lines. What if 100% of the Pellets made it 10 meters from the muzzle, 90% made it 20 meters from the muzzle, and so on until only 10% of the pellets hit at maximum range. It would make escaping easier since a opening a little bit of distance will reduce the incoming damage. It would make using the weapon harder because the gunner would have to gauge when the enemy is close enough to get the most out of the weapon.
As a person who has predominately flown throughout my tenure in goi, I would argue that blenderfish in particular, are not challenging to fly.
The reduction in spread and the increase in range made this gun a little too powerful.
So, don't make pointless judgements on others' observations.Actually make some observations in games with good players before you use them in arguments.
The discussion just seemed to focus on the heavy carronade so I did with my suggestion. Obviously the light one would change in some capacity as well if the heavy carronade got a change like that (like heavy flak and light flak last patch).
Anybody else notice that it is easier to disable a gun or engine with the heavy carronade than it is with a hwacha?
The reduction in spread combined with heavy clip ammo AND the increased range means that we have a very long range and accurate shot gun.
I think the main reason no one complained was because no one (generally speaking) knew the potential of the Goldfish, everyone was using Gat-Mortar Pyras/Junkers. Ever since I started flying blenderfish, I knew something was too powerful about it, I recall telling you Echoez when you introduced me to the ammo combinations that I thought it was "evil" lol.
I understand you don't want it nerfed to oblivion because I agree that it's really the only kill/100% reliable heavy weapon for a brawling Goldfish. I like Zill's idea of spreading out the damage over a larger clip, so that the potential power of the Carronade is the same, but gives the enemy more of a fighting chance.
IMO the Hawcha is a more team friendly weapon where as the carronade is better lone wolf weapon.
I have an issue with engagement length right now, and I feel as though the amount of time that the Heavy Carronade takes to kill should be the STANDARD engagement time. It's not too long, and not too fast. I have a problem with how fast Gat-Mortar can kill and refuse to use it as the standard, and refuse to believe that the Carronades take as long a time to kill as most people suggest. That's all opinion though and probably a topic for another thread.
Err, Carronades with the use of a side gun compliment I should add, Carronades alone (except dual light carronades) do take a little longer.
There is no OBVIOUS short range combo that can be used against the carronade.
In short, I think the Carronades aren't OP.
Here is the long answer:
Many people say that the Carronades are OP, because they require generally a small amount of skills for a very successful strategy. But that is simply wrong in terms of game design, here is why: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w).
We need strong carronades, I consider them pretty much to be a hard counter to Junker and Galleons. If we weaken them, we make those ships indirectly even more useful. Most of us will agree that those ships of all don't need a boost.
When you carefully read the comments you should notice that the disagreement is not in how powerful the carronades are, but how accessible, how easy counter strategies are. How much skill/knowledge you have to gain in order to counter the carronades.
The other point is, after the latest patch we gained a lot of different options for medium/long range, which was earlier just mercury and gat/mortar/flak combo. But for short range, the Carronades are pretty much the best choice there is. There is no OBVIOUS short range combo that can be used against the carronade.
On longer range though, we do have effective choices, but adapting to a long range strategy might be a bigger learning curve for newer players.
So maybe what we really need is a good, easier to find short range counter to the carronade. It should be harder to execute, that is fine. But it should be a very obvious counter, so that players can say: "I may not be able to right now, but I know how I can put an end to those pesky Blenderfishes!"
To summarize: in this thread, we already hit some solutions. But they are all worthless as long as we haven't nailed down the problem we are trying to solve. Some people are pissed off at the carronade and bring forward solution to a problem we haven't yet nailed, bad solutions in short. That doesn't mean their reasons to hate the carronade are wrong too.
To summarize the summary: Go flamewar lulz
Regardless of any of that, I dont know what you're trying to say to argue carronades are perfectly balanced.
Those are not alternate, more powerful, and harder to execute strategies that the video Blueberry linked talks about.
how about a bit of defensive planning? :) drogue chute + impact bumpers. if you do eventually hit the floor the impact bumpers will reduce the ground damage that you are taking while your engies are tanking the baloon and hull, giving a major boost to the time you need for your ally to overpower them :)
The problem is - you CAN'T fix balloon, before carronade recharges.
Both, heavy and light, killing balloon faster, than engineer can repair it. One clip and poof - no more balloon for you. One main engineer can rebuild it, yap, but when he does it - carronades ready to shoot, and you have, like, 1\3 of balloon health. So your engineer again rebuilding balloon. It's less painful, when, say, capn (on junker) and main engi rebuild it, and enemy has one light carronade - you can fly out this situation. But not against an heavy. That's practice for me.
Same goes for the Lumberjack, I don't see your point, the Carronade is much more justified in doing it since it's the only extreme close range weapon (other than fire) and most ships can return fire to the blender even when their are destroying your balloon. If you got flanked on a heavier ship then I'm sorry but you deserve to go down. If it's reload gets even longer then it's practically rendered useless on a Golfish and it's already a ship with a very narrow gun selection.
Carronades promote teamwork between the enemy team and then even more teamwork on your team's behalf to counter theirs.
how about a bit of defensive planning? :) drogue chute + impact bumpers. if you do eventually hit the floor the impact bumpers will reduce the ground damage that you are taking while your engies are tanking the baloon and hull, giving a major boost to the time you need for your ally to overpower them :)
The problem is - you CAN'T fix balloon, before carronade recharges.
Both, heavy and light, killing balloon faster, than engineer can repair it. One clip and poof - no more balloon for you. One main engineer can rebuild it, yap, but when he does it - carronades ready to shoot, and you have, like, 1\3 of balloon health. So your engineer again rebuilding balloon. It's less painful, when, say, capn (on junker) and main engi rebuild it, and enemy has one light carronade - you can fly out this situation. But not against an heavy. That's practice for me.
You can't really keep a hull up under constant gat fire either. What's your point?how about a bit of defensive planning? :) drogue chute + impact bumpers. if you do eventually hit the floor the impact bumpers will reduce the ground damage that you are taking while your engies are tanking the baloon and hull, giving a major boost to the time you need for your ally to overpower them :)
The problem is - you CAN'T fix balloon, before carronade recharges.
Both, heavy and light, killing balloon faster, than engineer can repair it. One clip and poof - no more balloon for you. One main engineer can rebuild it, yap, but when he does it - carronades ready to shoot, and you have, like, 1\3 of balloon health. So your engineer again rebuilding balloon. It's less painful, when, say, capn (on junker) and main engi rebuild it, and enemy has one light carronade - you can fly out this situation. But not against an heavy. That's practice for me.
You can't really keep a hull up under constant gat fire either. What's your point?
if you read what i put i didn't say it was a solution. i said it gave you MORE TIME for your ally to come and assist you. The balloon maybe down but drogue chute slowing your descent and impact bumpers reducing the damage. I didn't say that my tactics gave your balloon extra health and an armour upgrade.
You can't really keep a hull up under constant gat fire either. What's your point?
I still can counter it by piloting and maneuvering, like going down, so much of the clip go into balloon. And i don't have this possibility when facing a blenderfish, well on most maps. I still can outmaneuver on some maps, and when enemy pilot is worse than me. But still...
if you read what i put i didn't say it was a solution. i said it gave you MORE TIME for your ally to come and assist you. The balloon maybe down but drogue chute slowing your descent and impact bumpers reducing the damage. I didn't say that my tactics gave your balloon extra health and an armour upgrade.
Yep, i know and used it, but... there is a problem in enemy's ally ship, who can hold my ally, until blenderfish finish me off.
I can counter Lumberjack by good piloting. And you need a combination of a good pilot and good gunner, to score long range hits. Of course, if this not the Dunes.)
And the Heavy Carronade, with heavy round, is really not so close range weapon. That a little closer range, than gatling, for example. And no, i don't see a point in getting longer reload time - that not the problem, i think. But a closer range - yes.
I still can counter it by piloting and maneuvering, like going down, so much of the clip go into balloon. And i don't have this possibility when facing a blenderfish, well on most maps. I still can outmaneuver on some maps, and when enemy pilot is worse than me. But still...
Sorry but, if you can outmaneuver someone coming at you with a gat, you should be able to outmaneuver someone coming at you with a Carronade.
You can't really keep a hull up under constant gat fire either. What's your point?
I still can counter it by piloting and maneuvering, like going down, so much of the clip go into balloon. And i don't have this possibility when facing a blenderfish, well on most maps. I still can outmaneuver on some maps, and when enemy pilot is worse than me. But still...
Sorry but, if you can outmaneuver someone coming at you with a gat, you should be able to outmaneuver someone coming at you with a Carronade.
You can't really keep a hull up under constant gat fire either. What's your point?
I still can counter it by piloting and maneuvering, like going down, so much of the clip go into balloon. And i don't have this possibility when facing a blenderfish, well on most maps. I still can outmaneuver on some maps, and when enemy pilot is worse than me. But still...
so you decided to get involved into a 1v1 with an ally nowhere near you against a disbler ship designed to excell at 1v1 but suffer in 2v1 / 2v1?
Also have you ever tried getting him to chase you and tarring him? if he's stupid enough to carry on going through he'll wreck his ship. if he moves away it gives you more chance to get out of there and hurt him a bit
There is a.. limit to what you as a pilot can do to avoid Lumberjack shots and that gun has so many of them, that it doesn't realy matter unless the enemy gunner can't hit a giant balloon soon enough. The only thing the pilot need to do is, nothing. Just don't move the ship while keeping it steady and on target, that's all, on ALL maps, not just Dunes.
Also the Heavy carronade has a significant 200 meter less range than a Gatling, wouldn't call that 'little' and none of the two guns is actually used at the absolute max range cause it's too hard to pull of properly. It could go back to 450 for all I care, but no less than it was in 1.3.1
So basically you are saying that you can't use your balloon as a shield against a gun that is used to destroy balloons? I don't get your logic here, of course you can't counter the Carronade the same way you can counter a Gatling (woudn't even call it counter since they can just follow you down as well if they are clever.)
This just further proves my point that people simply aren't used to dealing with disablers due to Gat/Flak/Mortar being so popular in the latest patches.
All in all this game is a bit on the simple side and I doupt something like what's described in that video could be possible in this game.What? High Power for low amount of Skill? The Pyramidion enbodies this as pure as it gets.
For example, a Lumberjack will always pop your balloon and there is nothing else you can do with it, or some advanced move to excecute that will pop enemy balloons 'better' other than learning how to aim, and well as there is nothing else an enemy can do about it other than:
And the Heavy Carronade, with heavy round, is really not so close range weapon. That a little closer range, than gatling, for example. And no, i don't see a point in getting longer reload time - that not the problem, i think. But a closer range - yes.
What? High Power for low amount of Skill? The Pyramidion enbodies this as pure as it gets.
And the Lumberjack is an example for high skill to power ratio, it needs skill and knowledge of both the pilot and the gunner. And you need a Wingman able to survive two ships. Yeah you can annoy enemy ships, but when they kill your ally without you killing anyone... Plus I personally haven't fought a Lumberspire on long range yet, but I think with the new Artemis we might have a weapon to counter this gun.
And we won't have the same discussions about the Lumberjack as it is. There are other viable long range setups (new Flak much?), which take less skill and are more reliable than a Lumberjack. Yes it is very powerful, as it should be. I have seen many matches where a lumberjack setup backfired.
And with all the counter stuff, let's take the Galleon and the Junker as an example. They are good, they can be very good in the right hands but require more skill than a pyra or goldfish. If a new player is fed up with Galleons, tell him to take a blenderfish. Tell him how the gun works and be done with it. It requires less skill than a Galleon and a Junker and is very powerful against them. That doesn't mean he will always win, there are good tactics for Galleons and Junkers to kill a blenderfish. But it is an easy tactic that empowers the new player.
What people are saying though is how much more you need to know to effectively fight a blenderfish. This problem didn't exist before, then you could basically took the metamidion, but now what do we have to fight a blenderfish for close range? Nothing which takes slightly more skill, it takes a lot more skill and experience to fight it, and that is what people are complaining about. But that is not the guns fault! Changing the guns is just fighting the symptoms and not the cause.
Which is why I don't get all the whining, the kill builds are still the most dangerous things you have to worry about.And that's the thing about game design. You are absolutely right. There is no objective reason to hate the carronade. But people feel powerless fighting against it. Like I said, as bad as the metamidion was, it was at least an easy tactics for new players against the carronades, it made them feel powerful.
I still don't think the massive power the LJ has at range is justified, especially since the Power/Skill ratio of that gun gets screwed up the closer your target gets. So unless you are the guy that can't hit a brick wall at about 600 meters with that gun while using Lesmok, then I feel bad for you ...I have to agree. I haven't thought so much about it but it seems more broken than any gun, yet nobody cares ;). People don't feel powerless, maybe because they have other long range guns to fight a lumberjack. And there are other guns to effectively snipe.
I straight out disagree with the bolded part. Just because a ship is slower or has its guns on the side, doesn't mean it takes more skill to use, it's just a DIFFERENT style of play.Again, objectively you are right. But watch a match of new players. With bloody beginners. What they do, consistently, with whatever ship they happened to take is charge. Even if it is a Spire. Always. That's why I consider Goldfish and Pyra easy ships, beginners can do with them what they would do anyways. I am betting my left nut that this is why the pyra has two front-facing guns. So new player have a ship they can actually use and not feel useless, powerless.
I'm not saying the LJ is a clear skill upgrade to the carronade, but it sure as hell is close to being one, which is why I don't want to see further changes to nerf the carronades more.And uhm... I completely agree. There is a problem though, people do feel powerless against it. So a counter strategy may not be accessible enough. Or a good alternative for a close range gun for that matter. But it isn't the carronade's fault, as I wrote before.
And carronades are not very often used in competitive games. The blenderfish is essentially the Noobtube of GOIO, giving new players a positive experience and hooking them up for more. It needs to be easy and it needs to be powerful.
I am starting to write the same thing twice so I stop writing.
Let the Artemis shoot upwards. Problem solved.
Let the Artemis shoot upwards. Problem solved.
Let the Artemis shoot upwards. Problem solved.
Sniping light guns is a rarity and close to impossible in a heated fight especially with the tiny hitboxes the have, sniping engines maybe.. disagree with the 0.7 on all damage sources, hull modifiers already decrease the Flechette damage it does to a mere 35% and an even worse 20% for the Shatter and makes it much worse at something it's already not that good in, especially with the longer reload cycle.
People always over exaggerate about the Carronade's armor stripping power when in reality it takes around 2-3 clips to destroy it, that's more than enough time to get spanner and mallet hits in (Unless it's a Goldfish or a Squid, but rightly so, these ships have almost no armor anyway). Sure the carronade's burst can take many by suprise, but it's no more than that, a suprise, you will feel it once, next time you know what's there and you're prepared for it, sniping out components is mostly overlooked in favor of focusing on the objective unless it's a Heavy gun you need to take out, in which case you have that ability, but heavy guns are an entirely different matter, Hwacha has the upper hand in range already so it shouldn't be a problem, LJ should keep you down before you get close enough and the Flak.. well it's the Flak, it can't do anything other than blow up ships.
I mean heck, even Gatlings, Mortars and light carronades can disable that gun.. you don't need a weapon focused on disabling just to take down a single carronade..
Ok, I guess I have to be that guy but time for a quick math check here.
LJ and heavy carronade do almost the exact same amount of overall damage per minute to armor. LJ does much more to balloons but can't damage components and has an arming time, Carronade does much more to components but has a max range, these guns currently are well balanced against each other.
Heavy carronade actually does almost as much damage per minute to armor as a chaingun and a good deal more damage to armor than a chaingun with heavy clip.
Great, now that we have our maths right, feel free to carry on, though be aware; any more "facts" are subject to future math checks.
It's not the damage per minute that counts when you can strip hulls in a matter of seconds and cooldowns are a crucial factor to repairs.
@Echoes are you sure flechette only deals 35% against armor? I wouldn't trust the matrix the devs put on their website (because they no update). The latest patch note I found that was mentioning modifiers said it deals 40% to armor.
Sure it's hard to snipe out light guns with heavy clip. What about charged? I find it quite easy to destroy or at least heavily damage light guns with that. The downside is not how "hard" it is to hit those guns, it's the fact that you can only shoot those two shots every 5,5 seconds, so you have to prioritize. Keep the balloon down? Shoot directly at the hull to strip it?
good enough.
Other than that, I agree with Echoez. Pretty much every build can counter blenderfish if just the people manning the guns are good enough.
Which is why the idea of spreading out the damage across 4 shots is here (Heavy carronade). Also realize I expect a RoF increase if that is put into testing.
@Shadow : I thought spill damage was axed in a patch long gone? It was to combat mercs killing power, among other things.
I think he used the wrong term. He's not talking about spill damage but rather the fact that a balloon turns into a hull hitbox once it gets popped.
Oh, and just to put in my 2 cents I'd rather not see the carronade go to a 4 shot gun. There's so few low clip guns let that can utilize charged and lochnagar effectively these days not to mention that I think it'd effect the fun factor of the gun for me. I'm really happy the heavy flak stayed at 2 shot clips since it just feels so awesome to have so much power per shot in a heavy weapon. I wouldn't want that to have to change in the heavy carronade either.
Just so I get this right, spill damage is when, for example, 100 damage destroys armor with 50 health and then spills the remaining 50 to hull right? If so, what do you call my version of it? When damage hits destroyed components and gets transferred to hull?
That's the right term, but it just doesn't happen anymore. My understanding is that Muse patched that out of the game. So, if I take out your balloon at 50 health with 100 damage, none of the extra is transferred. If I hit that destroyed balloon with a fresh shot, it all goes to hull using the proper modifier.
I do agree that going to 4 shots would then kill loch's use. I only suggested it because of the way a carronade shoots, which is raycast, not a projectile like flak. This whole debate is much more to me a "make the gun itself harder to shoot effectively" vs "is it currently balanced."
The range needs to go down regardless. Back to production is fine, and I could stand for even 50m under it.
Actually Zill, as I understand, hull spill over was removed for everything except double explosive weapons (like flak, mortar, carousel etc). But it only works if the direct explosive damage is sufficient to break the hull; if so the explosive aoe should spill over.
Range should be brought back down to production and nothing less, don't even go there, both guns are already trumped in range by anything that isn't a Flamethrower, I'd hate to see this game's shotguns be turned into its own version of cotton candy shooters with magically disappearing shots, it will look even more ridiculous when they are being fired from a giant cannon.
No body stays at the max range of a carronade. Even at production it was just a spot where you could finally start hitting them, but you immediately got well within that to keep the pressure on and give your target less maneuvering options. Lowering its range by 50m just gives people that much more of a second to disable/evade/ect is not going to kill it.
Having used the Blender extensively in 1.2 as well as all the latest patches I can safely safe that the cycling rate of the gun feels MUCH slower than before and it is. I simply can't compare 5.5 seconds of reload to the old glory that was the 4 seconds, so to me it is a massive difference while the damage it got in return was simply not worth it compared to that reload time, so it is a nerf. the range buff on both the carronades was a bit excessive though I will have to agree, it should be taken back to 1.3.1 values.
The extra shatter damage doesn't matter anyway, it already had enough of it to destroy heavy guns instantly and the Shatter damage modifiers on anything else than components is so low, that the buff was minimal.
If you ask me I would prefer both carronades to be brought back to how they were in 1.3.1 with no changes, any change that was made in 1.3.2 somehow seems to have broken both of these guns. (according to what most people are complaining about)
More range that wasn't needed, more shatter damage that wasn't needed and actually only buffs the gun on something it should be bad at and that's Permahull damage (cause all damage modifiers are low on that anyway, so any kind of extra damage makes a difference) and a longer reload that makes the gun feel sluggier than it was before.
Bad, bad and more bad.
the only good thing was the reduced spread which should have been there in the first place.
The carronade was fine in 1.2, just bring it back to how it was and leave it alone, please?
As I said, none of those changes were needed.
Edit: By the way, it was not worth it for various reasons, including the fact that now everyone is complaining about a gun that was alright before, this is extremely annoying to me since I kept insisting that it should NOT be changed at all in 1.3.2, this is a very frightening fact considering what has happened to other guns due to massive complaints because of simple changes that guns didn't realy need.
The carronade was fine in 1.2, just bring it back to how it was and leave it alone, please?
Why is it whenever I bring up Hydro/Chute people always assume I'm talking about heavy ships? When have I ever promoted heavy warships? Yeah the change was good for them because it was silly before, but the light ships were fine and needed those abilities badly to be capable. Muse did squat to bring the light ships back to their former abilities which were not bad or silly. In fact the game has gone even more skewed away from light vessels which needed speed and agility to be able to counter raw firepower from the heavies. We've gone from a great game where you could really be flexible with ships and inventive to one where its just a bunch of flying turrets. Wheres the fun in that? Takes no skill to fly around in a turret.
The squid is fine you say? If you are going to say that, don't do it to someone who logged more hours on the squid than anyone, brought the squid into competitive play in 1.1 and won with it, and was known for emptying lobbies within 1 match because people could not keep up with it.
I'd still be flying it now if Muse hadn't ruined it. Freaken fact, the squid is crap compared to what it used to be and if you say otherwise you are either: someone I made rage quit with it, someone who is new to the game and doesn't know squat, or someone just running their mouth but flies Prya in 90% of their matches and couldn't care less about any other ship. I got pages of info I already sent to Muse about how bad the squid is and why it needs to be fixed. So unless you can back that up, don't start barking up a tree I've already marked with T-rex pee.
As for the carronade, it's currently the bane of my Mobula on a Goldfish. While I don't want to cry OP, I do want to say that it's hard to counter if you've not got some real distance between you and good line of sight. The Artemis can't fire up very well, and flying high is asking for it anyway. How low can you go? Same goes for the Merc with its limited arc (though I ought to try this some more to be honest, it seems like the most sure fire way of dealing with a carronade).
Last night I had the pleasure of being on the other end, crewing a blenderfish with a couple of new players, one piloting and one gunning. The gunner didn't have the right ammo for the carronade and wasn't so sure of its range but we still wiped the floor with our enemies. Particularly so when he brought heavy for later rounds. I explained that the carronade has practically no downward arc so the pilot, once realising this, knew just how to position himself. As for engineering (which I don't do much of), compared to most other ships I've been on, it was a breeze thanks to the one-tap hull armour and incredible hull health of the 'fish, the position of the hull next to the guns and the 'free' crew to keep an eye on things while the lone gunner guns on the front. Even the promiximity of the balloon to the helm made it a good possibility for the captain to help out. Once the enemy ship was locked down though it was just a matter of time before they were gonners. The Goldfish and carronade are a match made in heaven-- and hell.
Do I think the carronade needs nerfing? I'm not sure, but the range makes it a ridiculously easy and devastating point and click weapon if you've got heavy loaded. So that would be my first suggestion: to shift the range closer to its lighter sibling so there's greater risk for the same reward. There's a lot of talk here about it being good at armour stripping but I'm not sure why that is? It does flechette and shatter damage so I'm presuming the damage transferred from the popped balloon and shattered guns and engines etc. is adding up very quickly on the hull armour? That's quite a formidable mix there.
It was always like this, even back in 1.2 and it's how it should be, else there would be no point to the gun, why the hell bring a Heavy gun to pop a balloon and be mostly useless against anything else aside maybe the occassional enemy heavy gun or big engine, which you have no time to shoot for anyway cause you have to keep the balloon down.
[...] the Goldfish has 1 extra free engineer, but only one maingun [...]
Also, 'Matter of time', how much time? Cause it honestly couldn't have been faster than a Gat/Mortar.
If the two carronades have similar ranges that kills the point of even going for the Goldfish and not just bringing a Light one on a tankier ship, which has more overall damage per clip and does the same job with marginal difference, plus gets even more damage per clip than the Heavy one with the right ammo up close. Range and faster cycling rate are the only differences between the two.
If anything, the range of both guns should be brought back down to what it was in 1.3.1, even though I honestly can't see how 50 meters affect anything that much. I disagree to making it lower cause then the gun would always be at an extreme disadvantage against ANYTHING that outranges it, which is.. pretty much any gun that isn't a Flamer. It's already at a disadvantage at range.
Damage spill always uses correct modifiers, so nothing wrong with that.
Carronades are supposed to be the big bad cannons up close that wreck your shit, I don't get why people keep complaining about them working in their intended range [...]
I'd like to switch focus here from the heavy carro to the light one. I've been seeing a lot of pyras taking the double carro front, and the dps those things pump out is...no. Its over that of the heavy carro for sure. So, without putting any ideas in, I want to get people's take on the light carro.
Well then what would "fix" the light carronade issue? I mean, one on it's own isn't too bad, but put two together and it's as you say "otherworldly."
RoF? Damage? Im thinking RoF as we still want it popping balloons. Most drastic change would be 1 less ammo.
I still think the ranges can go back to stock at least as well.
Sorry Geggis, it was not my intention to stress you dude, don't take what I said personaly btw, this topic is just so frustrating to look at sometimes, I can't help but spill some spite in each post and most of them look like they were written by angry Joe. So my honest apologies there.
For the first quote, I simply state that the Carronade while being a balloon popper must not lose its current secondary utility, which is taking out armor, brought it up cause you were talking about damage spilling to hull.
As for the Goldfish, it's not as resilient, a Gatling will still mostly strip your armor in one go and they can finish you while you get in range easily. Of course if you flank them, then they have to play in your advantage field. Also the gun IS exposed, so charging blindly doesn't work that well unless you are already near range.
Third quote: Sorry xD
Current Max ranges are 400 for the Light, 500 for the Heavy, old values were 350 for the Light and 450 for the Heavy. Could be brought back down, I won't deny that the range increace was not needed.
I think the problem with balancing the light carronade based on that dual Pyra build is that it may hurt single carronades more than it does that particular build. Dual Barking Dogs are going to hurt whichever way you cut it in the same way dual gats or mercs will strip and shatter anything (I don't know the maths on this though). The shorter range will help inject a little more risk before that reward though.
Yeah but dual Merc/Gatling can't destroy absolutely everything in a matter of seconds, it's more about the utility the carronades have, they can destroy balloon, armor, hull, weapons, engines.. did I miss something? :P
Unless the range is EXTREMELY short then there is no point. Most fights are done in fairly close range in this game anyway. The main issue, in my opinion, is that it only takes one clip to kill a balloon. That's a second or two and your balloon is down (no way to come back except a friendly or loch lumberjack aiming straight up).
If it took more then one clip to kill a balloon it gives time to counter, and personally, I'd still use carronades happily.
Unless the range is EXTREMELY short then there is no point. Most fights are done in fairly close range in this game anyway. The main issue, in my opinion, is that it only takes one clip to kill a balloon. That's a second or two and your balloon is down (no way to come back except a friendly or loch lumberjack aiming straight up).
If it took more then one clip to kill a balloon it gives time to counter, and personally, I'd still use carronades happily.
Just to make sure we are on the same page, you're referring to the Light Carronade right? Cause if you're talking about the Heavy one, taking more than one clip to down a balloon pretty much defeats its purpose, especially against ships like the Junker where you don't have a second chance, one-clip balloon pop is pretty much the only way you can survive against some ships, if it gives them enough time to turn around then what's the point?
Unless the range is EXTREMELY short then there is no point. Most fights are done in fairly close range in this game anyway. The main issue, in my opinion, is that it only takes one clip to kill a balloon. That's a second or two and your balloon is down (no way to come back except a friendly or loch lumberjack aiming straight up).
If it took more then one clip to kill a balloon it gives time to counter, and personally, I'd still use carronades happily.