Author Topic: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2  (Read 189310 times)

Offline Mattilald Anguisad

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2013, 03:20:38 pm »
Actually prepatch rotational speed of Artemis was just fine imo. It was a great weapon even before. It could even defeat Polaris on their dual spire build (since it only hav 1 main and 1 light fron weapon) with Pyra fron Merc/Artemiss build.

Offline awkm

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2013, 03:53:46 pm »
-Artemis
--Decreased upward pitch angle (-35 to -10 degrees, skewed towards downwards aiming)
--Decreased rotation speeds (100 to 80 pitch, 120 to 30 yaw)
--Decreased zoom (3.5 to 2x)
--Slightly decreased muzzle speed (750 to 675m/s)
--Slightly decreased rate of fire (0.67 bullets per second to 0.625)
--Slightly decreased AoE (5 to 3.5m)
--Slightly decreased reload speed (5 to 7s)
-Light Carronade
--Changed pitch angles (-40 to 35 changed to -30 to 10, skewed towards upwards aiming)
-Heavy Carronade
--Changed pitch angles (-20 to 35 changed to -30 to 10, skewed towards upwards aiming)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 04:17:40 pm by awkm »

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2013, 06:59:37 pm »
Alright I guess I will stick my head out here. First, I must say that I do not envy your job at this moment as no matter what the people will complain. Also I appreciate the back and forth between the community and the developers, something that is so amazing and fantastic that I am sue it is a leading factor in the frankly gross amount of hours I have already put in since February. That being said...

I feel this hot fix goes a bit too far in nerfing the artemis to the point where the role of the gun seems murky. The slower turn speed means it can't really be used for trifectas. The slower speed has really hurt its range ability (the rocket explodes at a shorter range due the slower speed). So basically the gun is useless in a quick combat situation and ineffective in a long range gruelfest.

The artemis has always been my gun. Basically the after the first week of piloting my junker I began using it exclusively as my front gun and it always served me well, and in the last weeks, served me too well. This afternoon I had to retire a gun I had been using for about two months and am at a bit of a loss for a replacement.

I am sorry if this turns out premature or whiney, but honestly this hot fix really destroyed something I loved in this game, a unique bit of ship lost in a world of gat flaks.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2013, 08:22:43 pm »
Wow so it's getting a massive nerf instead of just a little one..... sigh. you change a couple things to bring it to the forefront and now slam just about every value the gun has? I don't get that thinking.

This is the exact thing I was worried about! the SOE or EA style "balance hammer of doom."

Offline Dev Bubbles

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2013, 11:30:52 pm »
Hey guys, while the across the board value adjustment sounds intimidating, let's give it a shot first.  It'll definitely take more skills to use in my opinion, but as we were testing today, it's still a pretty darn effective gun in my opinion.  Let's give it a bit of time and play, and we'll see if we need to make further adjustments. 
Thanks a lot!  Happy Weekend! Howard

Offline Machiavelliest

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2013, 04:59:18 am »
As far as I could tell, it wasn't a hammer of doom per se, but gat/flak is definitely the prevailing medium weapon combo once again.

Offline Lord Dick Tim

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2013, 06:56:41 am »
From what my gunners did with the Artemis after the change it became clear they needed to step up their game and think about using different kinds of ammo for different situations, which is what having a gunner over a gungineer is all about.
I was seeing the Artemis used effectively with a gunner who knew what ammo to have for different ranges or situations.  I really want to hammer this home, the changes seem to target that gungineer mentality we've seen keep cropping it's ugly head up into the casual game space. 

Course I'm also an extremist in the gun balancing camp, Nerf them all to hell and make it so gunners ammo diversity is your only sure way to get a kill.

Offline AquaMac

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2013, 07:49:12 am »
Bubbles, I think the point is Phoebe, being one of the best Lumber Jackers in the game, became every frustrated with the new update for there was not mention of changes that could effect the Lumber Jack. I was there when she was missing all of her shots, shots that were very easy for her before. She had spent many, many hours perfecting her skills at Lumber Jack, only to have the rug pulled out from under her, as the cliche goes. Now wether that was intentional or not is another story. Wether the Lumber Jack was changed or not, something was changed, and we had a hard time figuring out why.

Sometimes in text things can get misconstrued. Wether you were laughing at her, or yourself can be misinterpreted either way. I frankly did not know either way. If that was the case that you were laughing at yourself, maybe we can just post this up to another misunderstanding due to text chat.

After saying what you did, we did go to the sandbox, and were able to pretty much figure it out. Before that though, we kept being told that nothing was changed on the Lumber Jack. We knew something was wrong, and both of us were frustrated. I understand some things are going to be changed for better or for worse, but it is frustrating not knowing why, or not even know it was changed.

I just hope you can understand that Bubbles  that for serious competitive players this can be blind curve and very frustrating, even if it is for the better. Sometimes things can be said out of anger, because of that frustration.   :)

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2013, 11:36:45 am »
Ofiach posted his concerns in length about the artemis nerf in another thread, and I feel it's good for this discussion to show that and my reply in the artemis' favor following it.

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,649.msg15127.html#msg15127

Offline Squash

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2013, 12:00:26 pm »
Before that though, we kept being told that nothing was changed on the Lumber Jack. We knew something was wrong, and both of us were frustrated. I understand some things are going to be changed for better or for worse, but it is frustrating not knowing why, or not even know it was changed.

I probably shouldn't be wading into... *This*. But Moriarty, Morblitz and myself have spent a ton of time with lumberjacks since the labyrinth patch, and we don't think it's changed at all...

Offline Dev Bubbles

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2013, 12:32:15 pm »
Hey Aquamac,
As it turned out, there is no changes to lumberjack, and I did not give an affirmative. 
In any case, if this is the approach that you are taking with my communications, then I'm sorry, I will not be able to be as accommodating in catering to your requests and favors as I was before. 

From now on, if you have any issues or feedback, please go through the regular channels, whether that is posting on the forums or email to feedback@musegames.com. 

We will of course look at your requests or issues and answer them as soon as possible.  However, I need to be more selective and careful in my personal communications going forward, so that it does not lead to this type of responses and back and forth in the forum. 

Have a great weekend everyone!  Best, Howard

Offline Phoebe

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2013, 12:37:46 pm »
You might want to get a direct quote from me next time.  For the actual changes to projectile speed if any, I'll have Eric confirm, which is what I stated before.  It's unfortunate to see how self-deprecating humor on what I don't know morphing into this.  I will be more careful in friendly banters so things don't get misconstrued next time.  I did say that if the projectile speed increases, you will have to aim a little lower, and that is the case.  I haven't heard complaints about the lumberjack, or its change being drastic from other players, but then again, despite my efforts, I can't keep up with every forum post in addition to all the other communication channels that I pour over.  But if the ballistics of the lumberjack went through a drastic change, and this fact is not known, we will correct the oversight on our part. 
Thanks,

I did see "direct" quotes - just not "directly" from you - but you know me and aqua are together; so you knew I was gonna see the conversation, it doesn't matter to me either way

As for referring to banter and being more careful with what you say - that just goes without saying I think in your position;- in one hand I think it's great that the people at muse are so close to their players but in the other - purely from a PR perspective - you should always be careful what you say and how you say it;-  I've had a bit of a short fuse lately with you which has it's reasons and I do apologize; but you do make it easy to get annoyed at you sometimes.  We can talk it over some other time.

Topic at hand : The Lumberjack - I am still 100% confident something has changed;- I've been aiming the same variables for weeks after I worked them all out and always aimed the exact same responding to distances on the map;- but literally dead-on when 1,2 hits these values seemed to have changed and I now finally worked out the new aiming angles which are at least 2mm difference on the monitor off;- which for a weapon of this caliber is the difference between missing everything and hitting everything at every range past 500m.

That's my feedback on it;- I know something has changed - and the same goes here as with the lag/networking issue : you might not have changed something;- but something is definitely up.  I hope you guys can work it out and find out what the problem is - I just cannot accept that I am crazy, seeing ghosts - and should deal with assuming I am wrong in this;- so I have my fingers crossed that the issue will be identified.

Just in closing - you mentioned you can't keep up with forum posts;- but I felt this subject belonged on the topic it was created for which is "Guns balance questions and concerns v1.2" posted by Eric himself - so I don't think I took it to the wrong channel.  You have my feedback/experience now regarding this gun;-  the feedback is probably going to stay minimal from other sources because no one really fired the gun as extensive as I did and it already is a very hard to figure out gun; but hopefully others can also confirm the change of feel

Offline Squash

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2013, 12:39:54 pm »
Phoebe which maps have you tried this on?

Offline Phoebe

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2013, 12:45:13 pm »
Phoebe which maps have you tried this on?

Define "this" - because I play everything and don't specifically "try" anything on a specific map, I take everything I do to maps that come up in the vote regardless.

I redid all values for the lumberjack and I hit entire clips again right off the bat beyond 1250m; but that's not the point; the point is that I'm now using different values and numbers before the 1.2 patch -  I had to learn the entire guns details twice;  that should not happen - so that's the whole issue here;- I'm trying to tell them something has changed, and if they don't know what the problem could be because they say nothing has changed then I'd consider that an even bigger problem because that means essentialy they are breaking things accidentally.   A developer would hopefully show some kind of interest in such feedback
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 12:47:26 pm by Phoebe »

Offline Squash

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2013, 12:46:50 pm »
No, I mean, you said

"I've been aiming the same variables for weeks after I worked them all out and always aimed the exact same responding to distances on the map;"

Which maps have you tried it on?