Author Topic: new players  (Read 5836 times)

Offline Indreams

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Re: new players
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2015, 05:06:08 pm »
Correction- no player can wreck a public match, they need accomplices, though the accomplices may be lower level.

If the gunner starts shooting flak at the same time as hades and is reloading by the time armor breaks, nothing even the best pilot can do except suggest/cajole/plead/rage/ragequit.

That is my favorite part of this game. No matter how hardcore or pro a player is, whatever his/her role on the ship, it is impossible to singularly carry a team. You need teamwork to do anything at all in Guns, and I love it so much.

People that stick to Guns of Icarus are really good-natured people. They tend to flock together and play together (to no fault of their own except being really nice people), and wreck a lot of new/average players.

Its been a while since I've seen 30+ 4-digiter join a match without a friend 30+ 4-digiter. There's nothing wrong with it, its just -> :P

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: new players
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2015, 05:07:04 pm »
I forget sometimes that teamwork does not mean "Do what I say or we will lose" Remind me if you are every on my ship.

Offline Lanliss

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Re: new players
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2015, 05:16:04 pm »
I give orders to people who are really low lvl, like 3-7, but if someone seems to know what they are talking about and doing, I generally just let my ship run itself. I have gotten mostly lucky in that respect, since my ship actually does manage to run itself most of the time. I just give some quick feedback like "I assume I don't have to tell you to wait for red on those mortars? You seem to have a handle on this." To which the answer is always either, oh yeah thanks for the reminder, or nope but thanks for the thought.

I do not know if it is a common problem, but I only ever have problems when I am not pilot. Some of the flying I have seen is just terrible. And it is never in the middle when I get a pilot. They either only point one gun(never the main gun) at the enemy, or they are a lvl 45 badass who can fly a mobula through a sewing needle's head.

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: new players
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2015, 05:20:15 pm »
I never say things like that aboard. I always explain how things work the best I can. Only if somebody goes full retarded by not taking what I asked for - I go FULL sarcastic. Usually it turns out that AI work better than such people. I always try to encourage people's efforts.

So far I had only one guy who pissed me off to the point I suddenly said "SCREW IT. I'M STOPPING HERE. WE'RE NOT MOVING ANYWHERE, BECAUSE FUCK THAT GUY".

The said bastard came as a second gunner (all heil the almighty matchmaker). I recommended him and engineer loadout I needed. He declined me and IMMEDIATELY blocked me. The said dense motherfucker not only did not bring what I needed him to bring, he also blocked so I couldn't give him orders or any fucking piece of advice. What's more - he was badly disrupting work of literally everyone.

So I said: "FUCK YOU". This shithead even tried to reclaim the helm.
And finally I started to whine on match chat how screwed this dograpist is, when all of the sudden - HE UNBLOCKED ME.

AND I KNEW HIS OMNIPRESENT WRATH AS HE STARTED CALLING ME A NOOB AND A RAGEKID.

Thank God this trollcrap had left soon after that. Thanks to this I was able to do the come back from 3-0 to 3-5. Goddammit.

Soooo, will anyone else try to tell me we have no reason to hate new players? Of course that not all of them. And it's not like I greet them with "Fuck off, come no sooner you have 100 matches" (Mr.Disaster). But if somebody says that we have absolutely no reason to do so, I will probably shiv the bastard.

Offline Lanliss

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Re: new players
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2015, 05:27:38 pm »
I do not think it is necessary to hate new players. It is less often about being lucky to find a diamond in the rough, and more often being unlucky to find a piece of crap in a pile of pearls. Sometimes bad luck happens, and if anyone is that kind of an asshole, you have every right to hate them. Just don't hate the entire population because you were unlucky enough to find Hitler among them.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: new players
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2015, 05:39:47 pm »
Its been a while since I've seen 30+ 4-digiter join a match without a friend 30+ 4-digiter. There's nothing wrong with it, its just -> :P

It is because of match making. I used to just pick a random lobby that had open slots and start making new friends. If the people on the ship I got put on were not communicating I would jump ship to one that was. With match making I am pretty much guaranteed to be put on a ship with people who don't communicate.

Now a days I only join custom match/friends list games.

All things being equal one high level engineer or pilot can dramatically alter the balance of a server. I don't know about gunner since they are very dependent on the other classes doing their job right for exceptional gunnery to really make a difference. However if the teams are missmatched to begin with, there is nothing one player can do alone to fix this.

One veteran player plus 3 games worth of training on a novice crew that is willing to listen and learn can start upsetting a missmatched lobby. Unfortunatly with match making by the time that 3rd/4th game rolls around you get dumped back into crew form. If the top most captain is AFK or stupid every one leaves and you have to start the training from scratch if you can't pull the old crew back together.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: new players
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2015, 06:12:07 pm »
Correction- no player can wreck a public match, they need accomplices, though the accomplices may be lower level.

If the gunner starts shooting flak at the same time as hades and is reloading by the time armor breaks, nothing even the best pilot can do except suggest/cajole/plead/rage/ragequit.

That is my favorite part of this game. No matter how hardcore or pro a player is, whatever his/her role on the ship, it is impossible to singularly carry a team. You need teamwork to do anything at all in Guns, and I love it so much.

I have to disagree. One good captain regardless of crew can carry a team.

With or without allies I have carried hundreds of matches, including with all AI crews. So have plenty of other captains. I can recall many matches where I had all AI and a disconnected ally and managed to win. For example, I played a period of about 100 matches with an all AI squid with double flame and had a 43 match winstreak. In many of the matches I had no ally to speak of and relied on juggling in 2v1.

Good gunners and engineers can also carry matches to a degree. Lumberjack gunners and squid engis are good examples.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 06:15:53 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: new players
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2015, 06:22:35 pm »
A great Captain can not carry an incompetent crew to victory. Eventually the toll of unpaired engines, and missed shots at point blank range add up. AI crew are semi competent and often better than the raw novices you get with steam sales.

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: new players
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2015, 06:26:24 pm »
agreed captains are a major factor of any lobby

as they control the ship, the gun builds and the tactics (or lack thereof) in a match.
Gunners and engies are just in it for the ride, at the mercy of the competence of the pilot.

Hence people flock to decent pilots and leave a noob pilot with empty slots.

That being said crewmates that don't do their part (even one) in a lobby that requires them to be, can make or break a match. Hence this game is such an easy game for trolls to do their thing. I know a certain asshole that intentionally becomes a 2nd pilot, load loch on every gun  and fire and ignores repairs and steals the helm when given a chance.

Offline Lanliss

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Re: new players
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2015, 06:29:53 pm »
My point is that it is impossible as a single player to carry a match. You cannot be an engineer, a pilot, and a gunner all at once. In countless other games you could have one player vs a team of 10, and if the player is good enough or the enemy bad enough, the one will win. Also, while AI can be bad most of the time, they can have their moments. And, as Hamster said, AI are generally better than raw crew members. At least an AI knows how to repair things, and won't miss by a mile simply because they don't know the arc on a gun.

Offline MightyKeb

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Re: new players
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2015, 06:33:29 pm »
I never say things like that aboard. I always explain how things work the best I can. Only if somebody goes full retarded by not taking what I asked for - I go FULL sarcastic. Usually it turns out that AI work better than such people. I always try to encourage people's efforts.

So far I had only one guy who pissed me off to the point I suddenly said "SCREW IT. I'M STOPPING HERE. WE'RE NOT MOVING ANYWHERE, BECAUSE FUCK THAT GUY".

The said bastard came as a second gunner (all heil the almighty matchmaker). I recommended him and engineer loadout I needed. He declined me and IMMEDIATELY blocked me. The said dense motherfucker not only did not bring what I needed him to bring, he also blocked so I couldn't give him orders or any fucking piece of advice. What's more - he was badly disrupting work of literally everyone.

So I said: "FUCK YOU". This shithead even tried to reclaim the helm.
And finally I started to whine on match chat how screwed this dograpist is, when all of the sudden - HE UNBLOCKED ME.

AND I KNEW HIS OMNIPRESENT WRATH AS HE STARTED CALLING ME A NOOB AND A RAGEKID.

Thank God this trollcrap had left soon after that. Thanks to this I was able to do the come back from 3-0 to 3-5. Goddammit.

Soooo, will anyone else try to tell me we have no reason to hate new players? Of course that not all of them. And it's not like I greet them with "Fuck off, come no sooner you have 100 matches" (Mr.Disaster). But if somebody says that we have absolutely no reason to do so, I will probably shiv the bastard.

When someone declines your loadout you should always try to explain him why his setup is detrimental. Generally I have this problem occur with 2 gunner situations, so I just give them engi and tell em they have the second gun (There's always a second gun..) which I find is a good incentive to get them on engi.


If they block you, or simply keep declining or cussing at you (D'aww, cusses) report, block and leave. I've tried going spectator to stop the match timer afew times, but mostly MM finds another cap to take your spot, which happens to be one of the problems with the match timer :/


EDIT on Pies:  Oh yes, that's a very true fact that I personally experience on occassion aswell. The problem is whenever I crew I mostly get to serve under fairly new captains who easily screw up the match for us, which is a bit of a drive that keeps me on pilot. This is a teamwork reliant game alright, a ship cant function too well if the crew arent doing their job decently alright, but there's always that one cog in the machine that controls the approach and outcome...


There's nothing special about shooting gatling, as long as you live up to what your captain expects of you (decent aim and tracking) your armor breaks wont be any inferior to a vet's. As long as you, on the mortar, have a feel for its physics and you know when to fire it, you'll one clip ships like any vet.


But the difference between a decent and a good pilot is the latter will actually know gun arcs to the heart, approach accordingly to get the best of them, and manouver out of a bad situation to save their team a point. Meanwhile, a pilot with much lesser degree of skill might fly above with a carronade, ram junkers with their pyra's pointy balloon at full speed without breaking hull (I used to do this all the time) and turn a full 180 in the face of the enemy in an attempt to dust off when their ally is killed.


TL DR: Crew lives up to expectations, captain aspires to be the best/is the best and the match is over with a 5-0 ish victory.

 Oh and, ceres jumps in and explains my point while I'm writin, gg
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 06:35:02 pm by MightyKeb »

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: new players
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2015, 06:43:45 pm »
If a player refuses to bring a loadout or leave, report them and leave. Briefly tell the lobby and invite your old crew to a new crew form. Explaining or arguing with these players is futile.

Lanliss maybe I don't understand because as the lone player on a team I have single handedly won games against full enemy teams.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 06:48:31 pm by BlackenedPies »

Offline Arturo Sanchez

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Re: new players
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2015, 06:57:33 pm »
If a player refuses to bring a loadout or leave, report them and leave. Briefly tell the lobby and invite your old crew to a new crew form. Explaining or arguing with these players is futile.

Lanliss maybe I don't understand because as the lone player on a team I have single handedly won games against full enemy teams.

Thats sounds so great to explain.

"So this guy refused to leave when I told him to so clearly he was being a troll."

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: new players
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2015, 07:47:22 pm »
If a player refuses to bring a loadout or leave, report them and leave. Briefly tell the lobby and invite your old crew to a new crew form. Explaining or arguing with these players is futile.

Lanliss maybe I don't understand because as the lone player on a team I have single handedly won games against full enemy teams.

Thats sounds so great to explain.

"So this guy refused to leave when I told him to so clearly he was being a troll."

If a player refuses to bring a loadout or leave then they are trolling. Plain and simple. Captains require loadouts to make their ship work and anyone who refuses to cooperate must leave. It's their decision to fly on a ship not the other way around.

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: new players
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2015, 08:04:17 pm »
I apologize. I actually did not remember writing the word hate, nor did I spot it when I skimmed back over my writing.

XP bonuses might be applicable, but I still do not believe levels mean much. Sure, a lvl 45 pilot is obviously gonna be good, or at least decent, but as a lvl 15, I am better than a lot of lvl 20-30s I have seen. Levels do not mean much about your skill until you are 35+.

Also, please explain why the achievement thing is problematic. I want the devs to be able to see all the pros and cons of the ideas, in as much detail as possible.

I have an impression that you make everything not to understand my argument. *sigh* One more time...

Firstly levels didn't mean a lot in the old system, but now when they're so easy to get they are almost completely worthless. I refuse to accept that new 20/21 is supposed to be the same as old 7. But that's not the point. The point is (attention!) that novice players are getting too fast from novice. Fast level increase is especially destructive for new players who leave novice very quickly without much knowledge, and therefore it damages whole population. I would paste the link to my thread here but I assume that if you weren't willing to read then, you won't now also. All the suggestions I made were basically the ways to keep novice players in novice lobbies longer.

Why achievements are problematic? All the solution I presented require changing only one, maybe two values in the code, this can be made in literally no time (let's even assume - one hour). Achievement method requires someone to sit and think what does it mean to be "non-novice" and design special achievements  for novice. This solution takes significantly longer and it may possibly block content if the achievements are made badly and/or novice people can't complete them, either for their lack of understanding the game or even lack of knowledge of the achievements. Muse is strictly against blocking content. Also, the achievement system is a kind of... step back, isn't it? I mean, before matchmaker we only could earn levels through achievements, and there was a lvl cap on novice.

(all heil the almighty matchmaker).

ALL HAIL THE MATCHMAKER!

Quote
Soooo, will anyone else try to tell me we have no reason to hate new players? Of course that not all of them. And it's not like I greet them with "Fuck off, come no sooner you have 100 matches" (Mr.Disaster). But if somebody says that we have absolutely no reason to do so, I will probably shiv the bastard.

Huh? I do not do that. I mean, I somehow approve of that and I think it may be the only method to have a pleasant match but I was not the one doing that. And you know it, so I'll assume it's a troll.

With match making I am pretty much guaranteed to be put on a ship with people who don't communicate.

So much this.

If a player refuses to bring a loadout or leave then they are trolling. Plain and simple. Captains require loadouts to make their ship work and anyone who refuses to cooperate must leave. It's their decision to fly on a ship not the other way around.

Oh, so this is becoming 'that' thread. Everyone grab whatever you can and run before it will roll into the Pit.