Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Lanliss on March 02, 2015, 02:48:49 pm
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I am aware that a lot of people hate new players. Many people want some solution to keep new players away from old players until new players are considered as good or better than "vets". This essentially means everyone wants the newbies to learn the meta and/or learn how to play in a way that fits someone's niche play style. There will be none of that here.
I am looking for truly applicable and useful ways to make sure new players learn important things. I do not want any suggestions involving level requirements or matches played. Levels mean nothing in my opinion, and someone could easily go through a hundred matches refusing to listen to anyone. So, none of that.
My idea is to have a specific set of achievements implemented. It could be made to not affect old players, and only apply to people who start the game "post achievements" so as to prevent someone who is all 45s from being forced into novice matches, simply because s/he never used the rangefinder. I was thinking there could be something like fifty of the achievements, all basic things like "extinguish 200 fires with extinguisher" or "block 100 stacks of fire with chem spray". Of these fifty it could be required to have at least 25, or 30 to be able to play advanced matches. Since these are important things I would hardly call collecting these achievement whoring.
If you have any additional ideas, or an idea all your own, please respond. After maybe a week, or I have seen enough ideas that I think could be applied easily and be effective, I plan to email a link to the devs, in the hopes that we can simultaneously help the new players, while ending the complaints of the old players.
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No, its a wall that doesnt let you play with the rest and it encourages doing achievements.
Players at that stage may not even play anymore because the players they are forced with are boring or not allowing them to play the rest of the game.
I think an encouragement to make friends or communicate should be better emphasised. We cant directly control newbies or how a player learns the game.
Rather, emphasise having microphone or listening or forming a group with other people or making friends.
Hopefully, make players want to figure the game out togheter, instead of going gunner because pew pew.
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The problem is, that after playing some amount, some will get it, and other won't. Helpful advice to newbies has always been a topic in here as long as I can remember, but something like it will only go so far. It really does boil down to an individual basis at some point, there's no game which doesn't have it's fair share of newbies, and then those who continue to be ones even after playing for a while.
My advice is to deal with it. You're not going to get your perfect crew with perfect play ever time.
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My goal, with my idea at least, was to prevent the new players from getting dropped into a game where they will A) be yelled at or ridiculed for not knowing very detail of the game or B) be put in a room with the very real possibility of getting destroyed, possibly leading them to believe the game is un-approachable for new players. And as far as encouraging getting achievements, that is not such a bad thing, as long as they have had the proper teaching. After my proposed plan, I would think that they will know enough not to bring buff, spanner, and extinguisher. They should by that point be able to figure out that they should mediate their hunting(sure bring a buff, as long as you know how to compensate and still be useful.)
In response to Imagine(responded while I was in the middle of writing this) I do not expect a perfect crew every time. I just want to help ensure that you do not get a terrible crew most of the time. I have no problem sucking it up and playing with the newbies, but I want to help those who either do not want or cannot handle playing with new players.
Also, I recognize that this might seem like a bull headed refusal of anyone else's ideas, but I am really just defending my idea for the purpose of full coverage. I want any possible information to be available when reading this thread, that way the devs can tell what people agree with and what they don't want at all.
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Preventing newbies quite hard is not gonna go anywhere.
No one prevents level 1s in an mmo game to get to the highest level zone.
My suggestions is simply just more encouragement to Voice coms, listening or making clans/making groups or make friends.
Lure newbies into teamwork.
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If only we had something, other than victory, to bait the trap with. Most seem to care less, right now anyway, about victory than whether or not they do thing their way.
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The biggest issue is less about how well new players learn or how fast, but how vocal the anti-new players are, which is why in many cases forums should be taken with a pinch of salt.
As for helping players get over the learning curve, there are plans being made by CA's to arrange a regular tournament for novices (or just newer olayers) with the main focus in teaching them gameplay basics, once the ball gets rolling, it should help a lot. :)
But I will say, lately all the newer players I have met have been top notch people all eager to learn, one ally pilot apologising for his poor skills... Shortly before his ship won a 1v1 engagement against a higher level ship!
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I would rather rethink the tutorial. Recently some my friends from unversity bought the game and started playing (they are members of my clan, created for them). I teach them and what I need to say - the tutorial is almost always looked over even if I ask them to be careful. Even if they are - it foesn't cover anything important...
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So Kamoba. Would this tourney be all novice, or would there be something like one CA per ship? Just curious because having an experienced player on a ship would help with learning quite a lot. But not more than one, as that would probably shift the focus off learning and more towards obeying the vets. Another thing would be to make sure you do not have CA pilots, as the novices need to learn both piloting and communicating with their fellow captain. This is all moot if you plan on only novices playing, but I thought I would offer my opinion. In the past I have found it is safer to assume someone did not think of something than to assume they did and be wrong.
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One CA per ship (not necessarily pilot because people want to learn how to pilot too, but most likely pilot :) )
If needed have other CA's about too if we get enough people available at the same time.
I'm actually about to update the plan with an idea on the "tournaments" :)
Oh and yes likely novice only due to non-novice having no access to novice games :)
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By novice only I meant no CA either. I was saying that my ideas to prevent a CA from carrying a ship were pointless if you did not plan on any playing in the first place. Also I think the best position for CA on the ship would be engineer. That would leave a slot for each class open for the new players, and the CA can take on the harder engie jobs, like keeping a chem spray cycle going.
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That would also make it harder for the CA to watch what the crew members are upto and thus lower the learning pace...
Obviously not impossible.
Also I imagine with all the CAs being on the same page, we'd not "carry" the match but do more "evasive actions" to prolong engagements. :)
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Fair enough. Forgot we were talking about CAs here, and not standard players. Much smaller risk of putting victory over teaching.
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I'm guilty of putting victory over teaching. Whenever I captain, I usually stop talking about ten minutes in, get completely focused on piloting, and gets angry when Engis fail me. Then this happens: :D
(http://www.kryptonitekollectibles.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/450x/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/v/a/vaderfailmesticker.jpg/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader-You-Have-Failed-Me-for-the-Last-Time-Sticker-30.jpg)
But all jokes aside, its really patient work coaching a new player, and there isn't a great solution for it, maybe except for Muse to spend resources to make better tutorials, but I don't think better tutorials are on Muse agenda right now.
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Teaching new players is one of the jobs for Community Ambassadors. That was the solution. CAs can join novice games no matter their level, allowing them to teach the novices. Which reminds me, I do not only want ways to separate players from each other in this thread. If you have a solution to help new players learn better, without banishing them to novice land, feel free to put those up too.
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Better tutorial. A tutorial like the one in League of Legends, where the player is pitted against semi-scripted easy-bot match. Something similar would really help new players walk into matches with some idea of the basics.
This will come (or be possible) with the AIs Muse is developing for Co-op. Sadly, tutorial won't change until than.
Current tutorial is pretty awful. It's boring and provides terrible examples of load outs, like duo-fire tool and no-fire tool.
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If it is anything like the Dota tutorial, no. That thing was five hours long. Far too long, and the entire reason I do not play dota. I would hate for the reason that no one plays Guns to be that they did not want to deal with the massive tutorial.
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It's not that very bad. The problem is within people. They DO NOT read the tutorial info even though it's laconic...
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To the original poster, I feel that I belong to the group you are mostly reffering to as "hating" new players.
So let me explain my point slowly. Step by step. And yes, I know I sound arrogant as hell. Good? Good.
Imagine you go to a football game. You get random people from your area, scramble your way into the teams and start playing. Quickly enough you find out that your goalkeeper doesn't know shit about the game and runs past the defenders, to attack. Moreover, he kicks another player which results in a faul. While enemy team is discussing how to use the faul you try to explain him that he should be behind defenders, as a goalkeeper. He starts asking why but it's too late - the enemy team kicked the ball, passed it to their attackers and scored. So... you 'may' hate that guy but you probably not. Nor you want him to be of some excellent level at glance. No. You just wish he listened and tried his best on his position, knowing the rules of the game, without making your game miserable. Also imagine that you play football there every day and although there are different guys - there's always one such guy either on your team or enemies, which ruins game for EVEYRONE.
I do not hate them. Just if possible I don't want them on my ship, on my team, in my match if they are incommunicative, incooperative, unwilling to listen and lacking any knowledge about the game. I don't judge them as persons, I just want to have a pleasant match. I'm not against 'all' new players like "this is maah gaaahm and imma play with MAAAH FRUUUUHNDS", I just have bad impressions lately of any players below 100 matches count that have been on my ship. Also I don't mind helping some player once in a while (depending on my mood), but I don't want to be forced to do that every time I want to play.
I've already posted suggested solution to "noob problem" and I won't repeat myself*. I will coment what happened in this thread though. The idea that original poster is suggesting is somewhat idyllic, or at least really hard to make (we'd have to think what does it mean to be non-novice "advanced" player and how to put that in achievements). Also, as someone said, it may turn out to be (if designed/implemented badly) a wall that some people cannot break.
The big problem is that GOIO doesn't have a good player base, especially in "middle class" area. I can only guess but I think that 60-70% of GOIO population is below lvl20. Many veterans and medium-rank players have left the game, and people who would be that medium-rank are getting discouraged and also leaving, and then around 200-300 players on average there's a new sale, and so on. Lifespan of most new players in this game is probably something around 3 months and that's clearly something to think about that many players buy this game, play it for a while and then drop it and forget about it. This is also the reason why pubs are filled with stomping. But that's a little offtopic...
About the tournament for the novices, some time ago I've suggested something as "Junior league" - a Hephaestus Challenge replica but for people under some match count limit (I remember suggesting 1000 but it's a matter of debate). This would encourage young players to fight competetivelly and could make our comptetetive scene flourish.
Tutorials... yeah, those are fairly useless. This have been asked and pleaded for long time but no answer yet. But I'm glad that there are projects to help new players learn, such as Video Tutorial Project or Nanoduckling's clan.
*https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5713.0.html
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I did not say you hate new players. I just know that some people would prefer not to play with the newer players. I completely understand your point, and I have had the same problem. I look at it a little different, less as a reason to want to be away from the new players, more as a chance to teach. I am not judging you, I know some people can be difficult, and I entirely understand all of the arguments for and against New players. None of that is what I am talking about.
Or rather, while I am referring to all of that in my writing, more discussions on what new players are like is not my goal. I am looking for solutions to the problem, preferably with as little emotion as possible. Just pure, unbiased ideas. And as I said before, not just ways to separate people, because I know that is not the only solution. I am looking for any ideas that people think could help the problem, either on its own, or in tandem with other ideas. In short, I am looking for results, not explanations on why we need them.
Also, do not worry about coming off as arrogant, I have that problem too. I think it might have something to do with using words like Tandem, while everyone else on the internet just goes "lolz, cnt tuch meh swag". I have apologized in messages on this forum, in emails, and in game for coming off as if I think I know everything, or being arrogant or preachy. Also, writing that sample of the internet hurt me inside.
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I am aware that a lot of people hate new players. Many people want some solution to keep new players away from old players until new players are considered as good or better than "vets". This essentially means everyone wants the newbies to learn the meta and/or learn how to play in a way that fits someone's niche play style. There will be none of that here.
You did use the word 'hate', and since I was being very vocal about new-player policy I thought I apply to the group you are mentioning, at least partially. Perhaps I took it a bit personally, because lately I was accused of being "a vet who only wants to stomp".
I look at it a little different, less as a reason to want to be away from the new players, more as a chance to teach. I am not judging you, I know some people can be difficult, and I entirely understand all of the arguments for and against New players. None of that is what I am talking about.
Fair enough. As written above.
I am looking for solutions to the problem, preferably with as little emotion as possible. Just pure, unbiased ideas. And as I said before, not just ways to separate people, because I know that is not the only solution. I am looking for any ideas that people think could help the problem, either on its own, or in tandem with other ideas. In short, I am looking for results, not explanations on why we need them.
I understand your point, but I believe that changing values such as novice lvl cap or XP bonus is the easiest to implement and the fastest to test way to tackle that problem. Also, as a pre-matchmaker player I find it natural for novice to last some time and I think it's good, it give you time to learn in non-veteran environment. Personally I tried to remain in novice lobbies as long as I could.
Other than that, there's not much opportunity to improve with low costs (both in time and money) remaining. Achievement thing is problematic and tutorial rehaul (although needed) is more of a long-term goal than instant, cheap patch.
Interestingly enough, CS:GO has very average tutorial but MANY people play it. As I said many times: good games defend themselves.
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You mean the game that didnt have a tutorial where players figured it out themselves in a long time ago until CS:GO came out?
CS always had a large playerbase.
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I apologize. I actually did not remember writing the word hate, nor did I spot it when I skimmed back over my writing.
XP bonuses might be applicable, but I still do not believe levels mean much. Sure, a lvl 45 pilot is obviously gonna be good, or at least decent, but as a lvl 15, I am better than a lot of lvl 20-30s I have seen. Levels do not mean much about your skill until you are 35+.
Also, please explain why the achievement thing is problematic. I want the devs to be able to see all the pros and cons of the ideas, in as much detail as possible.
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There's usually a difference between one digit and two digits. There's a pretty good difference between 10~29 and 30+. There's a good difference between competitive and noncompetitive. There's a huge difference between two digit matches, three digit matches, and four digit matches.
A new player is usually one digit level and two digit matches. This is where the player is getting better. :-\
An average player is 10~29 with three digit matches. This is where the player is often decent. :)
A good player is 30+ with high three digit matches. They are usually reliable, and can teach new players. :D
A legendary player is usually competitive with four digit matches. They wreck public games, and are a menace to the skies :P
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You did use the word 'hate',
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE. (http://youtu.be/iw-88h-LcTk?t=45s)
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Dammit Schwalbe, you made me spit coffee everywhere.
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Then you might be able to suffer my torment with a little greater sense of retribution, hehe, you can heh, walk a mile IN MY SHOES
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Correction- no player can wreck a public match, they need accomplices, though the accomplices may be lower level.
If the gunner starts shooting flak at the same time as hades and is reloading by the time armor breaks, nothing even the best pilot can do except suggest/cajole/plead/rage/ragequit.
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You did use the word 'hate',
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE. (http://youtu.be/iw-88h-LcTk?t=45s)
Schwaibe, "I have no mouth and I must scream".
I read the story out of curiosity from one of your past posts.
My eyes wouldn't close for two days. Slugs were crawling in my mind.
It was like a hole in the sky.
I think you've had more than a retribution here. :P
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Correction- no player can wreck a public match, they need accomplices, though the accomplices may be lower level.
If the gunner starts shooting flak at the same time as hades and is reloading by the time armor breaks, nothing even the best pilot can do except suggest/cajole/plead/rage/ragequit.
That is my favorite part of this game. No matter how hardcore or pro a player is, whatever his/her role on the ship, it is impossible to singularly carry a team. You need teamwork to do anything at all in Guns, and I love it so much.
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Correction- no player can wreck a public match, they need accomplices, though the accomplices may be lower level.
If the gunner starts shooting flak at the same time as hades and is reloading by the time armor breaks, nothing even the best pilot can do except suggest/cajole/plead/rage/ragequit.
That is my favorite part of this game. No matter how hardcore or pro a player is, whatever his/her role on the ship, it is impossible to singularly carry a team. You need teamwork to do anything at all in Guns, and I love it so much.
People that stick to Guns of Icarus are really good-natured people. They tend to flock together and play together (to no fault of their own except being really nice people), and wreck a lot of new/average players.
Its been a while since I've seen 30+ 4-digiter join a match without a friend 30+ 4-digiter. There's nothing wrong with it, its just -> :P
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I forget sometimes that teamwork does not mean "Do what I say or we will lose" Remind me if you are every on my ship.
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I give orders to people who are really low lvl, like 3-7, but if someone seems to know what they are talking about and doing, I generally just let my ship run itself. I have gotten mostly lucky in that respect, since my ship actually does manage to run itself most of the time. I just give some quick feedback like "I assume I don't have to tell you to wait for red on those mortars? You seem to have a handle on this." To which the answer is always either, oh yeah thanks for the reminder, or nope but thanks for the thought.
I do not know if it is a common problem, but I only ever have problems when I am not pilot. Some of the flying I have seen is just terrible. And it is never in the middle when I get a pilot. They either only point one gun(never the main gun) at the enemy, or they are a lvl 45 badass who can fly a mobula through a sewing needle's head.
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I never say things like that aboard. I always explain how things work the best I can. Only if somebody goes full retarded by not taking what I asked for - I go FULL sarcastic. Usually it turns out that AI work better than such people. I always try to encourage people's efforts.
So far I had only one guy who pissed me off to the point I suddenly said "SCREW IT. I'M STOPPING HERE. WE'RE NOT MOVING ANYWHERE, BECAUSE FUCK THAT GUY".
The said bastard came as a second gunner (all heil the almighty matchmaker). I recommended him and engineer loadout I needed. He declined me and IMMEDIATELY blocked me. The said dense motherfucker not only did not bring what I needed him to bring, he also blocked so I couldn't give him orders or any fucking piece of advice. What's more - he was badly disrupting work of literally everyone.
So I said: "FUCK YOU". This shithead even tried to reclaim the helm.
And finally I started to whine on match chat how screwed this dograpist is, when all of the sudden - HE UNBLOCKED ME.
AND I KNEW HIS OMNIPRESENT WRATH AS HE STARTED CALLING ME A NOOB AND A RAGEKID.
Thank God this trollcrap had left soon after that. Thanks to this I was able to do the come back from 3-0 to 3-5. Goddammit.
Soooo, will anyone else try to tell me we have no reason to hate new players? Of course that not all of them. And it's not like I greet them with "Fuck off, come no sooner you have 100 matches" (Mr.Disaster). But if somebody says that we have absolutely no reason to do so, I will probably shiv the bastard.
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I do not think it is necessary to hate new players. It is less often about being lucky to find a diamond in the rough, and more often being unlucky to find a piece of crap in a pile of pearls. Sometimes bad luck happens, and if anyone is that kind of an asshole, you have every right to hate them. Just don't hate the entire population because you were unlucky enough to find Hitler among them.
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Its been a while since I've seen 30+ 4-digiter join a match without a friend 30+ 4-digiter. There's nothing wrong with it, its just -> :P
It is because of match making. I used to just pick a random lobby that had open slots and start making new friends. If the people on the ship I got put on were not communicating I would jump ship to one that was. With match making I am pretty much guaranteed to be put on a ship with people who don't communicate.
Now a days I only join custom match/friends list games.
All things being equal one high level engineer or pilot can dramatically alter the balance of a server. I don't know about gunner since they are very dependent on the other classes doing their job right for exceptional gunnery to really make a difference. However if the teams are missmatched to begin with, there is nothing one player can do alone to fix this.
One veteran player plus 3 games worth of training on a novice crew that is willing to listen and learn can start upsetting a missmatched lobby. Unfortunatly with match making by the time that 3rd/4th game rolls around you get dumped back into crew form. If the top most captain is AFK or stupid every one leaves and you have to start the training from scratch if you can't pull the old crew back together.
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Correction- no player can wreck a public match, they need accomplices, though the accomplices may be lower level.
If the gunner starts shooting flak at the same time as hades and is reloading by the time armor breaks, nothing even the best pilot can do except suggest/cajole/plead/rage/ragequit.
That is my favorite part of this game. No matter how hardcore or pro a player is, whatever his/her role on the ship, it is impossible to singularly carry a team. You need teamwork to do anything at all in Guns, and I love it so much.
I have to disagree. One good captain regardless of crew can carry a team.
With or without allies I have carried hundreds of matches, including with all AI crews. So have plenty of other captains. I can recall many matches where I had all AI and a disconnected ally and managed to win. For example, I played a period of about 100 matches with an all AI squid with double flame and had a 43 match winstreak. In many of the matches I had no ally to speak of and relied on juggling in 2v1.
Good gunners and engineers can also carry matches to a degree. Lumberjack gunners and squid engis are good examples.
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A great Captain can not carry an incompetent crew to victory. Eventually the toll of unpaired engines, and missed shots at point blank range add up. AI crew are semi competent and often better than the raw novices you get with steam sales.
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agreed captains are a major factor of any lobby
as they control the ship, the gun builds and the tactics (or lack thereof) in a match.
Gunners and engies are just in it for the ride, at the mercy of the competence of the pilot.
Hence people flock to decent pilots and leave a noob pilot with empty slots.
That being said crewmates that don't do their part (even one) in a lobby that requires them to be, can make or break a match. Hence this game is such an easy game for trolls to do their thing. I know a certain asshole that intentionally becomes a 2nd pilot, load loch on every gun and fire and ignores repairs and steals the helm when given a chance.
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My point is that it is impossible as a single player to carry a match. You cannot be an engineer, a pilot, and a gunner all at once. In countless other games you could have one player vs a team of 10, and if the player is good enough or the enemy bad enough, the one will win. Also, while AI can be bad most of the time, they can have their moments. And, as Hamster said, AI are generally better than raw crew members. At least an AI knows how to repair things, and won't miss by a mile simply because they don't know the arc on a gun.
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I never say things like that aboard. I always explain how things work the best I can. Only if somebody goes full retarded by not taking what I asked for - I go FULL sarcastic. Usually it turns out that AI work better than such people. I always try to encourage people's efforts.
So far I had only one guy who pissed me off to the point I suddenly said "SCREW IT. I'M STOPPING HERE. WE'RE NOT MOVING ANYWHERE, BECAUSE FUCK THAT GUY".
The said bastard came as a second gunner (all heil the almighty matchmaker). I recommended him and engineer loadout I needed. He declined me and IMMEDIATELY blocked me. The said dense motherfucker not only did not bring what I needed him to bring, he also blocked so I couldn't give him orders or any fucking piece of advice. What's more - he was badly disrupting work of literally everyone.
So I said: "FUCK YOU". This shithead even tried to reclaim the helm.
And finally I started to whine on match chat how screwed this dograpist is, when all of the sudden - HE UNBLOCKED ME.
AND I KNEW HIS OMNIPRESENT WRATH AS HE STARTED CALLING ME A NOOB AND A RAGEKID.
Thank God this trollcrap had left soon after that. Thanks to this I was able to do the come back from 3-0 to 3-5. Goddammit.
Soooo, will anyone else try to tell me we have no reason to hate new players? Of course that not all of them. And it's not like I greet them with "Fuck off, come no sooner you have 100 matches" (Mr.Disaster). But if somebody says that we have absolutely no reason to do so, I will probably shiv the bastard.
When someone declines your loadout you should always try to explain him why his setup is detrimental. Generally I have this problem occur with 2 gunner situations, so I just give them engi and tell em they have the second gun (There's always a second gun..) which I find is a good incentive to get them on engi.
If they block you, or simply keep declining or cussing at you (D'aww, cusses) report, block and leave. I've tried going spectator to stop the match timer afew times, but mostly MM finds another cap to take your spot, which happens to be one of the problems with the match timer :/
EDIT on Pies: Oh yes, that's a very true fact that I personally experience on occassion aswell. The problem is whenever I crew I mostly get to serve under fairly new captains who easily screw up the match for us, which is a bit of a drive that keeps me on pilot. This is a teamwork reliant game alright, a ship cant function too well if the crew arent doing their job decently alright, but there's always that one cog in the machine that controls the approach and outcome...
There's nothing special about shooting gatling, as long as you live up to what your captain expects of you (decent aim and tracking) your armor breaks wont be any inferior to a vet's. As long as you, on the mortar, have a feel for its physics and you know when to fire it, you'll one clip ships like any vet.
But the difference between a decent and a good pilot is the latter will actually know gun arcs to the heart, approach accordingly to get the best of them, and manouver out of a bad situation to save their team a point. Meanwhile, a pilot with much lesser degree of skill might fly above with a carronade, ram junkers with their pyra's pointy balloon at full speed without breaking hull (I used to do this all the time) and turn a full 180 in the face of the enemy in an attempt to dust off when their ally is killed.
TL DR: Crew lives up to expectations, captain aspires to be the best/is the best and the match is over with a 5-0 ish victory.
Oh and, ceres jumps in and explains my point while I'm writin, gg
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If a player refuses to bring a loadout or leave, report them and leave. Briefly tell the lobby and invite your old crew to a new crew form. Explaining or arguing with these players is futile.
Lanliss maybe I don't understand because as the lone player on a team I have single handedly won games against full enemy teams.
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If a player refuses to bring a loadout or leave, report them and leave. Briefly tell the lobby and invite your old crew to a new crew form. Explaining or arguing with these players is futile.
Lanliss maybe I don't understand because as the lone player on a team I have single handedly won games against full enemy teams.
Thats sounds so great to explain.
"So this guy refused to leave when I told him to so clearly he was being a troll."
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If a player refuses to bring a loadout or leave, report them and leave. Briefly tell the lobby and invite your old crew to a new crew form. Explaining or arguing with these players is futile.
Lanliss maybe I don't understand because as the lone player on a team I have single handedly won games against full enemy teams.
Thats sounds so great to explain.
"So this guy refused to leave when I told him to so clearly he was being a troll."
If a player refuses to bring a loadout or leave then they are trolling. Plain and simple. Captains require loadouts to make their ship work and anyone who refuses to cooperate must leave. It's their decision to fly on a ship not the other way around.
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I apologize. I actually did not remember writing the word hate, nor did I spot it when I skimmed back over my writing.
XP bonuses might be applicable, but I still do not believe levels mean much. Sure, a lvl 45 pilot is obviously gonna be good, or at least decent, but as a lvl 15, I am better than a lot of lvl 20-30s I have seen. Levels do not mean much about your skill until you are 35+.
Also, please explain why the achievement thing is problematic. I want the devs to be able to see all the pros and cons of the ideas, in as much detail as possible.
I have an impression that you make everything not to understand my argument. *sigh* One more time...
Firstly levels didn't mean a lot in the old system, but now when they're so easy to get they are almost completely worthless. I refuse to accept that new 20/21 is supposed to be the same as old 7. But that's not the point. The point is (attention!) that novice players are getting too fast from novice. Fast level increase is especially destructive for new players who leave novice very quickly without much knowledge, and therefore it damages whole population. I would paste the link to my thread here but I assume that if you weren't willing to read then, you won't now also. All the suggestions I made were basically the ways to keep novice players in novice lobbies longer.
Why achievements are problematic? All the solution I presented require changing only one, maybe two values in the code, this can be made in literally no time (let's even assume - one hour). Achievement method requires someone to sit and think what does it mean to be "non-novice" and design special achievements for novice. This solution takes significantly longer and it may possibly block content if the achievements are made badly and/or novice people can't complete them, either for their lack of understanding the game or even lack of knowledge of the achievements. Muse is strictly against blocking content. Also, the achievement system is a kind of... step back, isn't it? I mean, before matchmaker we only could earn levels through achievements, and there was a lvl cap on novice.
(all heil the almighty matchmaker).
ALL HAIL THE MATCHMAKER!
Soooo, will anyone else try to tell me we have no reason to hate new players? Of course that not all of them. And it's not like I greet them with "Fuck off, come no sooner you have 100 matches" (Mr.Disaster). But if somebody says that we have absolutely no reason to do so, I will probably shiv the bastard.
Huh? I do not do that. I mean, I somehow approve of that and I think it may be the only method to have a pleasant match but I was not the one doing that. And you know it, so I'll assume it's a troll.
With match making I am pretty much guaranteed to be put on a ship with people who don't communicate.
So much this.
If a player refuses to bring a loadout or leave then they are trolling. Plain and simple. Captains require loadouts to make their ship work and anyone who refuses to cooperate must leave. It's their decision to fly on a ship not the other way around.
Oh, so this is becoming 'that' thread. Everyone grab whatever you can and run before it will roll into the Pit.
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Ok, a lot has happened since I last checked, so I will try to not ramble here.
To Jazzhand, you must have gotten lucky with that winning streak. Maybe you got decent AI, combined with fighting against bad players. Regardless, Unless you are an absolute god, I am sure you had trouble that you would not have had with players helping out. Maybe you really are just that good, but your experience does.not represent the standard for gameplay. Most of the time you need a team of at least two good players, or three to four decent players, for a ship to carry a game.
As for the lookout thing, I generally do not see the reason for it. I accept the lockouts that are offered to me, sometimes with minor tweaking (like trading an extinguisher out for chem spray), but so many captains have their own niche play style where they absolutely need this engie to carry the buff, mallet, and chem spray(that is just an example, do not know if people really do that specific combo). My point is that a lot of captains have their own specific play style, and if a player cannot adapt from captain to captain they are often considered bad. I have played with captains who based their play style on a strat that worked out once, and they keep going with it, then blaming the crew when their "badass" all flak spire does not work out.
I understand that their are trolls, and that they will refuse decent loadouts just to screw with people, but refusing a loadout does not make someone a troll. Maybe they just thought it was a bad loadout, maybe they did not think they could play with it. Maybe it had a buff hammer and they had no experience with that, and we're worried they would do poorly with that. There are a lot of reasons that someone might turn down a loadout, and being a troll is not the only reason.
Now on to Disaster, because he got his response in before I finished typing this beast(I hope their is not a limit to characters on here)
I am not refusing to understand your point, I just want the information plain and simple, so there is no chance of the devs misunderstanding when I eventually send them a link to this thread. I though I might have known what your problem was with the idea, but on the internet, over text, it is difficult to be sure about things like that. Also, from what I have seen, a lot of people want that step back, as that would solve the problem of novices not being novice long enough. Not trying to shut your idea down, just saying what I have seen on here.
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Lan... read my post.
It pre-emptively dealt with what you presume I didn't consider.
As for the whole refusing load out thing.
"please take my totally OP chem extinguisher buff build i reccomended and get rid of that spy glass, you need rangefinder."
Its not that cut and dry. Sometimes you gotta go with your common sense and just go no. I'm going with this. I'm going to save your dumbass by making this choice of refusing your dumb build. I am also going to scrutinise every single error you have made and will make and predict exactly what is going to happen if you go with your genius strategem.
Suffice to say, they take in a hurt pride and go with whatever dumb idea they go with, but in the end I'm proven 100% right and my common sense choice to go with whatever build i can to salvage the trainwreck shows its truth.
Real trolls are intelligent people that intentionally act harmfully. An idiot is not a troll, it is an idiot whos incompetence is the undoing of their crewmates and their teams. They mean well, but they don't do well. worst of them are the know it all noobs.
A certain person was asking for spire builds.
He started with double gat carronade. I told him exactly why it was bad. It broke hull sure but the carronade is for balloon. It can do hull damage but it won't give the kill power you want. A decent ship can simply tank the hits long enough to either ram or disable as essentially nothing is ceasing their momentum.
So after he went with my advice and replaced the carron with a flak. It did what a flak does, near insta kills upon hull break. With two hull breakers the flak didn't need to wait long for the hull break. And if the gats and flak get decent arcs in on a target, it will play on the strength of a spire as a glass cannon and kill before lethal damage to the ship is done. A destroyed ship cant hurt the spire with a ram. A hull broken balloon popped ship though? Its diagonal ram stings way more than a normal ram. As it does forward momentum and downward momentum on that ramming action. The rammer might die but its highly likely that you would too especially on a spire that has all its crew on guns (since its a kill or be killed ship)
*point of the story found here.
After that, I said that if you want heavy spire then go with the known trifecta carron spire. With 2 barking and 1 hell hound. At first it had a gat on its fourth slot and I said replace it with a flamer. But then this new guy came (some lvl 20 know it all), and started yammering on about the merits of a hull break to couple with a carronade (a lesson I had just taught to be stupid on the first spire). So he asks why? We need a hull breaker? What do we have to hull break?
The ground. One bounce and that hull is gone. A 2nd bounce that ship is gone. All the while that carronade is doing is balloon locking as 3 carronades are firing doing direct hull dmg via the broken balloon. Any rebuilds is instantly broken. replace 1 carronade to the mix and you distract the ship from balloon rebuilds as other parts gets set on fire. Guns overheat. Engines burn out. Hull breaks.
1 gun for a hull break vs 1 gun that damages all parts and paralyses a full crew from fixing key parts. Common sense would say flamer for that balloon destroy assist as it sets other parts on fire that none of the target ship can ignore either. A decent crew can split their 2 engies on hull balloon easily, and what you don't want is to give time to the enemy to be rescued.
All this info is common sense. You just need to think a moment on what things do and what situations they do best. What situations counters them and what tactics need to be employed to play in a position of strength.
Alot of people don't think that large a scale but come in thinking they are goddamn Gabriel of the Icarus. I don't listen to people like that because my vast experience and extensive research (that is freely available to everyone yet very few actually look into) tells me that X idea is dumb. Hence I will not humour that stupidity.
If being an asset that the incompetent person didn't ask for is being a troll. Then frankly, I guess I am a very good troll that keeps ships alive and gets kills (but still loses because dumbass thought gat mortar on a squid is a thing)
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That's not what happens. A low level player joins a ship and refuses to bring the right ammo and tools no matter your explanation. Ignorance about the game is no excuse when the loadout logic is explained. These players just want to do whatever and refuse to be told otherwise. A single reply of "no fuck you" to either bringing a loadout or leaving is a pretty telltale sign of trolling.
This is a team game. If a crew member refuses to bring an acceptable loadout this forces the pilot either to be at a decisive disadvantage or to leave. I always choose the latter. A captain shouldn't be forced to leave because of uncooperative crew. This is game breaking and unacceptable behavior. It's a simple choice: they can play with the team, they can leave, or I will leave and report them because they are trolling.
Thankfully this is a vast minority of players. Same with captains who give out bad loadouts. If a captain gives you a bad loadout, accept it and explain why you're changing an aspect. If they tell you not to then either keep the loadout or leave. By refusing to you are creating unnecessary conflict. Deliberately disobeying is a bad precedent.
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Thankfully this is a vast minority of players. Same with captains who give out bad loadouts. If a captain gives you a bad loadout, accept it and explain why you're changing an aspect. If they tell you not to then either keep the loadout or leave. By refusing to you are creating unnecessary conflict. Deliberately disobeying is a bad precedent.
A good example of this happened yesterday, one captain offered a gunner loadout to a level 30 engineer and the guy said. "Hey captain I accepted the load out but will change the charged for burst because it is more effective with the manticore than loch, unless you had any specific plans?...."
Captain (Level 10) "Oh okay... I thought the damage would be good."
Gunner explained Loch mechanics on manticore...
Captain: "ahh i see!"
Happy days.
Communication in a polite manner is OP.
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I know right! And I always try this at first and second try. Till try, when I starting to unleash the beast of a sarcasm inside.
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That's not what happens. A low level player joins a ship and refuses to bring the right ammo and tools no matter your explanation. Ignorance about the game is no excuse when the loadout logic is explained. These players just want to do whatever and refuse to be told otherwise. A single reply of "no fuck you" to either bringing a loadout or leaving is a pretty telltale sign of trolling.
This is a team game. If a crew member refuses to bring an acceptable loadout this forces the pilot either to be at a decisive disadvantage or to leave. I always choose the latter. A captain shouldn't be forced to leave because of uncooperative crew. This is game breaking and unacceptable behavior. It's a simple choice: they can play with the team, they can leave, or I will leave and report them because they are trolling.
Thankfully this is a vast minority of players. Same with captains who give out bad loadouts. If a captain gives you a bad loadout, accept it and explain why you're changing an aspect. If they tell you not to then either keep the loadout or leave. By refusing to you are creating unnecessary conflict. Deliberately disobeying is a bad precedent.
That is precisely why I only play with my clan now. I stopped playing with pick-ups after match making. I don't have time to beat my head against the wall arguing or trying to beat the clock before match making starts the game. It's sad that eventually this is what the game has developed into.
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That's not what happens. A low level player joins a ship and refuses to bring the right ammo and tools no matter your explanation. Ignorance about the game is no excuse when the loadout logic is explained. These players just want to do whatever and refuse to be told otherwise. A single reply of "no fuck you" to either bringing a loadout or leaving is a pretty telltale sign of trolling.
Loadout logic being explained is a bit heavy for new players. Loadouts often involve a meta that involves knowing specific numbers for specific guns by heart. I understand where you are coming from, and trust me I do know that there are some people out there like this. I just do not believe in some of these solutions. Leave and report? That sounds a little childish. Not to insult you, by any means, but that sounds a lot like running to the parents, when more mature people should be able to figure these problems out on their own. I understand that the reporting option is there for a reason, and some of these players deserve it, but I have seen people refuse loadouts for the reasons I described, simply lacking the knowledge or understanding of the game. This also leads to them not knowing what an explanation means. A new player that does not know much is not going to know to have lesmok in flamer until the enemy gets close, then switch to burst. Even being told to do this does not help, because they do not clearly understand the why of a loadout. I do not think a lack of knowledge, combined with a refusal to blindly follow the orders of someone who happens to be a higher level than them should get someone reported, nor should it cause you to leave. I personally consider it almost a sin to the holy Sky Whale to let the mouse pass over the exit button. Maybe it is because I have not had many bad experiences, and even my bad experiences were still pretty fun, but I do not see a reason to leave simply because you have the low ground.
I played a game against a clan, though they seemed relatively new. One of them moved over to my ship and did nothing but stand on the bow the entire time. I can see how that would anger some people, but I take it as a challenge. One that I passed by the way, in a 2-5 game. I thought it was an excellent bit of experience to play with a crew of two, without even an AI to help them, and I think sticking it out and ignoring the troll really helped me grow as a player. Maybe it really is just me, but I can deal with a bit of an extra challenge. Also as soon as you rage or leave they get what they want, so just another reason to continue as normal, preferably just ignoring their existence.
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There are players that refuse to bring loadouts regardless of how convincing you may seem. In my experience these players are almost always kids who join in during sales. The refusal has nothing to do with the actual mechanics of the game, they just want to play it on their own. I've had players argue that they'll use whatever ammo they want and to go fuck myself. The best thing to do is not escalate anything and quickly leave. I disagree that it's childish to report and leave, it's responsible. Reporting is futile on its own but if the player accumulates enough then a mod will talk to them.
Maybe you could convince them to bring a loadout, but from my experience the players don't care. They are kids with bad attitudes. Thankfully most players who refuse loadouts take my second request and leave. Again, refusing loadouts and refusing to leave is a small minority but I've encountered it at least 100 times. The vast majority of players listen and want to learn. Playing with an uncooperative player sets a bad precedent.
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There are players that refuse to bring loadouts regardless of how convincing you may seem. In my experience these players are almost always kids who join in during sales. The refusal has nothing to do with the actual mechanics of the game, they just want to play it on their own. I've had players argue that they'll use whatever ammo they want and to go fuck myself. The best thing to do is not escalate anything and quickly leave. I disagree that it's childish to report and leave, it's responsible. Reporting is futile on its own but if the player accumulates enough then a mod will talk to them.
Maybe you could convince them to bring a loadout, but from my experience the players don't care. They are kids with bad attitudes. Thankfully most players who refuse loadouts take my second request and leave. Again, refusing loadouts and refusing to leave is a small minority but I've encountered it at least 100 times. The vast majority of players listen and want to learn. Playing with an uncooperative player sets a bad precedent.
This is also the procedure Muse encourage people to take when encountering issues, B R L, Block Report Leave.
It avoids any arguments escalating, and assuming the majority of players follow these rules, the unsavory characters will be weeded out.
As Blackened said, something which I have encountered more than a couple of times, you try to be polite and offer a load out, and the "Call of Duty mlg-pro" gansta wanna be will just hurl abuse at you because of no reason beyond that which triple A games unintentially support and breed when they make single players "feel like god" in online games and encourage, not sportsman like competition but "IM GUNNA ****ING KILL U NUB" attitudes.
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That's not what happens. A low level player joins a ship and refuses to bring the right ammo and tools no matter your explanation. Ignorance about the game is no excuse when the loadout logic is explained. These players just want to do whatever and refuse to be told otherwise. A single reply of "no fuck you" to either bringing a loadout or leaving is a pretty telltale sign of trolling.
Loadout logic being explained is a bit heavy for new players. Loadouts often involve a meta that involves knowing specific numbers for specific guns by heart. I understand where you are coming from, and trust me I do know that there are some people out there like this. I just do not believe in some of these solutions. Leave and report? That sounds a little childish. Not to insult you, by any means, but that sounds a lot like running to the parents, when more mature people should be able to figure these problems out on their own. I understand that the reporting option is there for a reason, and some of these players deserve it, but I have seen people refuse loadouts for the reasons I described, simply lacking the knowledge or understanding of the game. This also leads to them not knowing what an explanation means. A new player that does not know much is not going to know to have lesmok in flamer until the enemy gets close, then switch to burst. Even being told to do this does not help, because they do not clearly understand the why of a loadout. I do not think a lack of knowledge, combined with a refusal to blindly follow the orders of someone who happens to be a higher level than them should get someone reported, nor should it cause you to leave. I personally consider it almost a sin to the holy Sky Whale to let the mouse pass over the exit button. Maybe it is because I have not had many bad experiences, and even my bad experiences were still pretty fun, but I do not see a reason to leave simply because you have the low ground.
I played a game against a clan, though they seemed relatively new. One of them moved over to my ship and did nothing but stand on the bow the entire time. I can see how that would anger some people, but I take it as a challenge. One that I passed by the way, in a 2-5 game. I thought it was an excellent bit of experience to play with a crew of two, without even an AI to help them, and I think sticking it out and ignoring the troll really helped me grow as a player. Maybe it really is just me, but I can deal with a bit of an extra challenge. Also as soon as you rage or leave they get what they want, so just another reason to continue as normal, preferably just ignoring their existence.
I almost always try to make sure these sorts of players are briefed on what theyre doing as to not face the loadout difficulties you've already explained. But what bothers me is how you call reporting and leaving, "childish". No, the best case scenario for a troll isnt to make you leave. Its to make you mad and leave. By simply blocking and leaving, Pies is avoiding going through the trouble of challenging his reasoning with an uncooperative player and perhaps even losing his temper along the way. I do carry matches often, but I try to avoid it as much whenever I have the opportunity. Picture this: You have a mobula ally on canyon ambush who backs up into his own tar, has his gunners load lochnagar into the guns and has on one occassion crashed and killed himself on the terrain. What do you do? Well, if you go on about calling it a "challenge" and 2v1ing the hell out of the match and winning, that is far less productive and merely rewards you and promotes your abilities as a captain to yourself, which might potentially end up with you overestimating your own abilities and thus, creating elitism.
Whereas, you could just attempt to communicate with this said pilot, and through explaining atleast SOME basics and essentials, you could actually get him to be a little more than a distraction/meatshield, which will help him hold his own alone in his later lobbies and eventually improve and be like you should he dedicate himself to the game. The world doesnt toy around with you to hamper your success Lanliss, its not a fight, its just an unfortunate situation that you CAN fix to make everyone's lives easier. Ie, you could have established comms with that engineer on the bow, even if you just yelled at him or something or lost your temper along the way, you got him a bit closer to doing his job right and that will help him in his efforts to crew under less tolerant/newer captains.
But that's just how I like to look at it, I'm not sure if I came off a bit crude but I'm not gonna apologize, I said what I had to say.
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*CHEW* *CHEEEEW*
WELCOME ABOARD THE SARCASM TRAIN! Dear Passangers, please do not fasten your seatbelts - it is always a pleasure to scrap your remains off the floors and ceilings!
Loadout logic being explained is a bit heavy for new players. Loadouts often involve a meta that involves knowing specific numbers for specific guns by heart. I understand where you are coming from, and trust me I do know that there are some people out there like this. I just do not believe in some of these solutions.
Ok. Take 2 and 3. Add them. What do you got? You'll tell me that 5 BUT I REFUSE TO BELIEVE. PROOF IT.
The loadout propositions are based on mathematics - I guess you must be around 12 years old or less if you don't get that "numbers" are not equal to "mathematics". Trust me, I will be an engineer (but first I have to get my bloody degree). BUT OH HEY YOU WILL QUESTION THAT TOO.
Leave and report? That sounds a little childish. Not to insult you, by any means, but that sounds a lot like running to the parents, when more mature people should be able to figure these problems out on their own.
You seem not to get the point of this game, aren't you?
TEAM.
WORK.
TEAM is meant to WORK together. Without it EVERYONE is dead. I guess you should know this with your 12-15-15 levels and 250 matches.
OH WAIT.
After 1.3.8 the new levelling system gives you 2-9-10 in like 30 matches.
Still don't get my point?
You can be fucking mature etc. when you are on your own. Play 500 matches - and you will see that sometimes there is no reason to waste your nerves and time on fuckers who don't even care.
If YOU don't get it, welp. My answer is the same as for such people.
Get back to your CS, where teamwork is optional.
I understand that the reporting option is there for a reason, and some of these players deserve it, but I have seen people refuse loadouts for the reasons I described, simply lacking the knowledge or understanding of the game. This also leads to them not knowing what an explanation means.
Hmmm, interesting.
So you are telling me, that person whom I tell exactly WHY THE FUCK should he take the most optimal, standard set of tools, even not by citing any maths, and pointing the weaknesses of THEIR MARVELLOUS CHEMSPRAY-EXT-BUFF LOADOUT WITH LOCHNAGAR AMMO (saw this, really, sales OP) they STILL REFUSE to listen.
So it's perfectly my fault, because it is I, that bad trolling bastard, trying to disrupt their perfect 420noscope skillz and way to own glory. It is my fault I SPEAK IN RIDDLES.
I KNOW. I'll switch my accounts name to Riddler.
Because of those great riddles I create of course! Come, here's the one:
YOU LOAD THE LESMOK ROUNDS WHEN ENEMY IS FAR, SO YOU CAN OPEN FIRE WITH GALING EARLIER AND STIR SOME TROUBLE. IT MAKES THE PROJECTILES GO FASTER, LESS DOWNHILL AND FURTHER.
AFTER THE FULL CLIP TO HULL SWITCH TO GREASED - IT'LL MAKE YOUR GUN SHOOT FASTER.
OH AND MORTAR, WAIT FOR THE RED MARKERS - THIS MEANS THE ARMOR IS DOWN, SO YOU WILL BE ABLE TO KILL THEM WITH ONE CLIP. MORTAR IS USELESS OTHERWISE.
AND THE MOST "RIDDLE" PART OF WHICH I'M PROUD ARE THOSE CAPITAL LETTERS.
No it's just caps-lock.
BE DAMN YOU.
A new player that does not know much is not going to know to have lesmok in flamer until the enemy gets close, then switch to burst. Even being told to do this does not help, because they do not clearly understand the why of a loadout. I do not think a lack of knowledge, combined with a refusal to blindly follow the orders of someone who happens to be a higher level than them should get someone reported, nor should it cause you to leave.
Well if you don't understand, spend, like, 200 hours in matches. It comes with time.
I personally consider it almost a sin to the holy Sky Whale to let the mouse pass over the exit button. Maybe it is because I have not had many bad experiences, and even my bad experiences were still pretty fun, but I do not see a reason to leave simply because you have the low ground.
Advice same as above. You just were not unlucky enough.
I played a game against a clan, though they seemed relatively new. One of them moved over to my ship and did nothing but stand on the bow the entire time. I can see how that would anger some people, but I take it as a challenge. One that I passed by the way, in a 2-5 game. I thought it was an excellent bit of experience to play with a crew of two, without even an AI to help them, and I think sticking it out and ignoring the troll really helped me grow as a player. Maybe it really is just me, but I can deal with a bit of an extra challenge. Also as soon as you rage or leave they get what they want, so just another reason to continue as normal, preferably just ignoring their existence.
The main difference between the troll and new player is that the troll is interrupting the work aboard and does not even bother himself to think outside of the "I'M THE ONE RIGHTEOUS" box. Willingly or not - he is interrupting, he is disrupting, and getting on nerve. You arguments are totally invalid. And the only one thing I might like in your whole disappointing speech is that one should never leave the match he already started. Leaving from the lobby of 1-1-1 people who surely will not communicate? OF COURSE. Because
I HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO THAN GETTING ABSOLUTELY UPSET.
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All righty then, things seem to have gotten interesting. Sarcasm is fun, though I prefer verbal Ironies. As for CS, never played it, no idea what it is like. Have you played it? Is it fun? I prefer my teamwork with a dollop of smartass, so.I.hope they have some better stuff than Your mom jokes. Yeah, I know that, in pretty much every way, I am inexperienced. I have not been unlucky enough to have these horrible experiences, so I cannot believe that it is really that bad. As far as loadout logic, whether you are citing maths or not, if someone is new to the game they might not understand what any of what you say means. As I have said, yes, There are horrible people who do these horrible things you speak of. I did run into a troll, though not quite as evil of one, so I know they exist. I am just saying that they are not nearly as abundant as you all seem to think. Last time I was in game there was maybe 300 people in game, just a few days ago. Assuming pros like you take up the top 10-30% (I do not know how many actual pros there are in comparison to players total) that leaves 70-90% for everyone else. I cannot believe that the majority of those are trolls, nor that even a third of them are. Probably not even a fifth. I am guessing that the trolls represent less than a tenth of the population, which is 27, max(assuming you are discounting the pros). I find it difficult to believe that twenty seven players can ruin the entire game for everyone. Keep in mind, I do know the trolls are there. I am not flat out refusing their existence. I am just saying to consider if someone is really a troll or if they just do not understand. The guy you described, yeah he seems like a troll, but there is really every possibility that he is just dense as hell. Am I defending his actions? No, but I am saying that you should make sure they really are a troll before you report them. Maybe I am just reading it wrong, but a few of the people here seem to just block and report anyone who disagrees with their idea of how to play. I am most likely wrong about that, but that is how the writing came out in my mind. Assuming a lobby of all 1-1-1 will absolutely not communicate is not giving them a chance. You might find a diamond, if you stick out long enough.
To MightyKeb
I did not ignore him at first, I am not a moron. I always try to establish comms with everyone, just to make sure they can hear me, just in case there is an emergency where I do need to talk with them. I know the world does revolve around me, and does not change itself for the sole purpose of giving me a challenge. I did not carry my team in that particular instance, as my teammate was at least on my level, and we both had a great crew (discounting the bow dweller). I also refuse to believe that succeeding in one game alone could lead to elitism, or that I could succumb to elitism. Yes, I realize that sounds like elitism itself, believing I am too good to be bothered by your petty ideas of good and bad, but it is really not.
I have always had a decent idea of myself, and how others view me, so I have some idea of whether or not I am good, as a human being. Sure, I throw some smartass comments around, but for the most part I am a decent person. Also, my skin is unbreakable, so do not bother apologizing for something to me. I have never felt insulted on the internet, though many have tried, and I doubt anyone in this community could be cruel enough to come up with an insult that would crack through my impenetrable shell of laughter and jokes. Everyone on these forums is too nice to break me. Even Schwalbe, though I do feel he could have come up with a better name than sarcasm train. Maybe the Flying Sarcasm, setting sail for the port of Fuck You. Liked the stuff after that though, so my idea could not really be applied. As you were then.
I tried to get them all, but there might be a few spots where there is a period, when there should be a space. Ignore that.
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I haven't run into an uncooperative player who refused to leave in quite a while now, at least a month. They're most prevalent during sales, of which under 10% are uncooperative, probably closer to 5%. It's a small but noticeable minority.
To be clear, I don't have any problem with players who refuse loadouts, I have problems with them refusing and refusing to leave. Many don't communicate at all when refusing a loadout. I try to be clear in both text and voice chat but never receive an answer. The only choices left are play with the player or leave.
I don't think it's a lack of understanding because if you're new to a game and an experienced player tries to teach you something you don't ignore them. I think it's solely an attitude problem. Most players are cooperative and fun to play with.
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To MightyKeb
I did not ignore him at first, I am not a moron. I always try to establish comms with everyone, just to make sure they can hear me, just in case there is an emergency where I do need to talk with them. I know the world does revolve around me, and does not change itself for the sole purpose of giving me a challenge. I did not carry my team in that particular instance, as my teammate was at least on my level, and we both had a great crew (discounting the bow dweller). I also refuse to believe that succeeding in one game alone could lead to elitism, or that I could succumb to elitism. Yes, I realize that sounds like elitism itself, believing I am too good to be bothered by your petty ideas of good and bad, but it is really not.
I have always had a decent idea of myself, and how others view me, so I have some idea of whether or not I am good, as a human being. Sure, I throw some smartass comments around, but for the most part I am a decent person. Also, my skin is unbreakable, so do not bother apologizing for something to me. I have never felt insulted on the internet, though many have tried, and I doubt anyone in this community could be cruel enough to come up with an insult that would crack through my impenetrable shell of laughter and jokes. Everyone on these forums is too nice to break me. Even Schwalbe, though I do feel he could have come up with a better name than sarcasm train. Maybe the Flying Sarcasm, setting sail for the port of Fuck You. Liked the stuff after that though, so my idea could not really be applied. As you were then.
Now that's a gigantic paradox technically, but I'll take your word for it. Still, even though you've defended yourself from my arguments by justifying them and almost finding a common ground, you havent touched why exactly leaving and reporting is, in your words I quote, "childish" and what instead is your solution? Perhaps the community'll find your established method superior, and that is assuming you have one in question.
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Maybe the Flying Sarcasm
Definitely not - Flying is reserved for the Fuck I Don't Give, Which is Not a Junker Nor Bird.
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To MightyKeb
I did not ignore him at first, I am not a moron. I always try to establish comms with everyone, just to make sure they can hear me, just in case there is an emergency where I do need to talk with them. I know the world does revolve around me, and does not change itself for the sole purpose of giving me a challenge. I did not carry my team in that particular instance, as my teammate was at least on my level, and we both had a great crew (discounting the bow dweller). I also refuse to believe that succeeding in one game alone could lead to elitism, or that I could succumb to elitism. Yes, I realize that sounds like elitism itself, believing I am too good to be bothered by your petty ideas of good and bad, but it is really not.
I have always had a decent idea of myself, and how others view me, so I have some idea of whether or not I am good, as a human being. Sure, I throw some smartass comments around, but for the most part I am a decent person. Also, my skin is unbreakable, so do not bother apologizing for something to me. I have never felt insulted on the internet, though many have tried, and I doubt anyone in this community could be cruel enough to come up with an insult that would crack through my impenetrable shell of laughter and jokes. Everyone on these forums is too nice to break me. Even Schwalbe, though I do feel he could have come up with a better name than sarcasm train. Maybe the Flying Sarcasm, setting sail for the port of Fuck You. Liked the stuff after that though, so my idea could not really be applied. As you were then.
Now that's a gigantic paradox technically, but I'll take your word for it. Still, even though you've defended yourself from my arguments by justifying them and almost finding a common ground, you havent touched why exactly leaving and reporting is, in your words I quote, "childish" and what instead is your solution? Perhaps the community'll find your established method superior, and that is assuming you have one in question.
Maybe they do like I do and.. just live with their choice and have fun anyways? Your gonna get bad apples in any game if you let them completely ruin it for you then.. well your loss really.
It is fun to play on a dysfunctional ship in its own way.. Just like its fun to play on a cookie cutter ship... Just a different experience and different learning opportunity.
Personally my interaction with new players is... (Since I only engineer for now...) Ask the second or other engineer(s) (depending if its one or two) - if they prefer to shoot or main engi.. (or relevant question for the ship).. 99% of the time they will say shoot, so I suggest the best ammo for the gun and main engi. If they chose to not bring it, oh wells.
If a group is cooperative I will suggest more things to be helpful to them (if guns are really bad, suggest better loadouts .. if they can do something more efficient - how to do that.. etc.) and if they don't seem to care then I don't bother and just use these matches to help myself be better in hard situations.. (How to prioritize.. damage awareness etc).. You get a lot more of that in low skill lobbies then you do in high skill ones honestly..
I can't remember the last time I had a truly bad match because of someone. Actually my last bad experience is a game where some new person was playing how they could and the "vet" captain decides its his job to scream at the person the entire time until they leave.. or the game ends - and pretend like everything that goes wrong is that one persons fault... - I'd much rather play with the "bad" new player then those types of "good" vet players..
I know one of my earliest games in GOIO was on such a ship from a certain clan and pretty much completely avoid that clan for most of my GOIO career because of that one person.. Lucky I met more fun people who didn't scream so much and I stuck around. And honestly if I had met a few of those types in a row I would of quit the game before I really got started..
As for games with out right trolls (ie captain who feels the need to ram the ship in to the ground or.. second engineer who thinks the front gun of the goldfish is his and not the gunners no matter what any say... etc).. Not much muse can do about really.. They exist in every game .. No need to take it to seriously.. These are the cases its fine to report and leave a lobby afterward I think (I'd never leave mid-match though but wouldn't blame anyone who does)... -but usually they leave..
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For the topic point though.. What can muse do to help new players learn things quicker but not make it unfun, I still think forcing them to do the tutorial before they can opt out of novice could help some... (they can still level out of it if they don't want to do the tutorials).. This should at lest remove most of the people who don't even know mallet is for repair and spanner for rebuild.. and other minor issues..
I also think novice should last X matches instead of till X level in a class.. And the number needs to be worked out to whatever it seems takes the average new player to learn the basics of the game.. and is better then an AI at it. (which isn't a really high bar.. but its higher then you see sometimes). (even though you don't want this type of idea its more just reference for the next bit).
Idk what else they can really do though short of things that would make it just unfun... Most people seem to just want to jump in to the game and play - that's fine but.. They should do it in novice - not a normal match.. Not just because people don't always want to play with them but rather it gives them a bad experience - being stomped and feeling like you couldn't do anything to win isn't exactly fun (for either side really).. So giving them enough time or the right knowledge to understand why they are losing so badly.. Might help them feel less bad and more willing to try to get better at it..
I don't actually think though Muse needs to teach them gun arks and loadouts and correct ammo types for guns, and all that technical stuff that can change any patch.. because I think they learn all that just fine over time if they stay (like we all did). I think they should just focus on making sure they know enough about the game that then can understand why they might lose or what tools do.. and of course being willing to cooperate with other players.
Its hard to really do that though outside the tutorials in the actual game.. just because the content of the game is user driven and doesn't employ any story or anything to use.. So it sorta depends on the older players to teach the more technical things..
This post is to long.. but oh well.
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Keb, my solution is as Caprontos said, just carry on and have fun regardless. The reason I feel that leaving and reporting is a little too similar to "running to mommy" for my taste. Not meant as an actual insult to your person, just the only way to explain my opinion on the topic.
Schwalbe, awesome comeback.
Caprontos, the matches played might work out, though I still do not feel it can guarantee that new players will learn the things that vets want them to know. But then again, there is not really an easy fix to the problem. The only thing is to make sure that it is not too long, because I do not feel it would be fair for me to be in a novice game, as that might lead to the stomping people want to avoid. I do not even have 200 matches I don't think, though I have played with and learned from a few high end players. Maybe I really should technically be in novice.
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Schwalbe, awesome comeback.
*tips the hat*