Author Topic: new players  (Read 5834 times)

Offline Indreams

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Re: new players
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2015, 04:59:44 pm »
Better tutorial. A tutorial like the one in League of Legends, where the player is pitted against semi-scripted easy-bot match. Something similar would really help new players walk into matches with some idea of the basics.

This will come (or be possible) with the AIs Muse is developing for Co-op. Sadly, tutorial won't change until than.

Current tutorial is pretty awful. It's boring and provides terrible examples of load outs, like duo-fire tool and no-fire tool.

Offline Lanliss

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Re: new players
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2015, 05:02:39 pm »
If it is anything like the Dota tutorial, no. That thing was five hours long. Far too long, and the entire reason I do not play dota. I would hate for the reason that no one plays Guns to be that they did not want to deal with the massive tutorial.

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: new players
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2015, 05:06:59 pm »
It's not that very bad. The problem is within people. They DO NOT read the tutorial info even though it's laconic...

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: new players
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2015, 06:15:18 pm »
To the original poster, I feel that I belong to the group you are mostly reffering to as "hating" new players.

So let me explain my point slowly. Step by step. And yes, I know I sound arrogant as hell. Good? Good.

Imagine you go to a football game. You get random people from your area, scramble your way into the teams and start playing. Quickly enough you find out that your goalkeeper doesn't know shit about the game and runs past the defenders, to attack. Moreover, he kicks another player which results in a faul. While enemy team is discussing how to use the faul you try to explain him that he should be behind defenders, as a goalkeeper. He starts asking why but it's too late - the enemy team kicked the ball, passed it to their attackers and scored. So... you 'may' hate that guy but you probably not. Nor you want him to be of some excellent level at glance. No. You just wish he listened and tried his best on his position, knowing the rules of the game, without making your game miserable. Also imagine that you play football there every day and although there are different guys - there's always one such guy either on your team or enemies, which ruins game for EVEYRONE.

I do not hate them. Just if possible I don't want them on my ship, on my team, in my match if they are incommunicative, incooperative, unwilling to listen and lacking any knowledge about the game. I don't judge them as persons, I just want to have a pleasant match. I'm not against 'all' new players like "this is maah gaaahm and imma play with MAAAH FRUUUUHNDS", I just have bad impressions lately of any players below 100 matches count that have been on my ship. Also I don't mind helping some player once in a while (depending on my mood), but I don't want to be forced to do that every time I want to play.

I've already posted suggested solution to "noob problem" and I won't repeat myself*. I will coment what happened in this thread though. The idea that original poster is suggesting is somewhat idyllic, or at least really hard to make (we'd have to think what does it mean to be non-novice "advanced" player and how to put that in achievements). Also, as someone said, it may turn out to be (if designed/implemented badly) a wall that some people cannot break.

The big problem is that GOIO doesn't have a good player base, especially in "middle class" area. I can only guess but I think that 60-70% of GOIO population is below lvl20. Many veterans and medium-rank players have left the game, and people who would be that medium-rank are getting discouraged and also leaving, and then around 200-300 players on average there's a new sale, and so on. Lifespan of most new players in this game is probably something around 3 months and that's clearly something to think about that many players buy this game, play it for a while and then drop it and forget about it. This is also the reason why pubs are filled with stomping. But that's a little offtopic...

About the tournament for the novices, some time ago I've suggested something as "Junior league" - a Hephaestus Challenge replica but for people under some match count limit (I remember suggesting 1000 but it's a matter of debate). This would encourage young players to fight competetivelly and could make our comptetetive scene flourish.

Tutorials... yeah, those are fairly useless. This have been asked and pleaded for long time but no answer yet. But I'm glad that there are projects to help new players learn, such as Video Tutorial Project or Nanoduckling's clan.

*https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5713.0.html



« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 06:19:05 pm by Mr.Disaster »

Offline Lanliss

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Re: new players
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2015, 06:36:40 pm »
 I did not say you hate new players. I just know that some people would prefer not to play with the newer players. I completely understand your point, and I have had the same problem. I look at it a little different, less as a reason to want to be away from the new players, more as a chance to teach. I am not judging you, I know some people can be difficult, and I entirely understand all of the arguments for and against New players. None of that is what I am talking about.

Or rather, while I am referring to all of that in my writing, more discussions on what new players are like is not my goal. I am looking for solutions to the problem, preferably with as little emotion as possible. Just pure, unbiased ideas. And as I said before, not just ways to separate people, because I know that is not the only solution. I am looking for any ideas that people think could help the problem, either on its own, or in tandem with other ideas. In short, I am looking for results, not explanations on why we need them.

Also, do not worry about coming off as arrogant, I have that problem too. I think it might have something to do with using words like Tandem, while everyone else on the internet just goes "lolz, cnt tuch meh swag". I have apologized in messages on this forum, in emails, and in game for coming off as if I think I know everything, or being arrogant or preachy. Also, writing that sample of the internet hurt me inside.

Offline Hoja Lateralus

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Re: new players
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2015, 01:30:40 am »
Quote
I am aware that a lot of people hate new players. Many people want some solution to keep new players away from old players until new players are considered as good or better than "vets". This essentially means everyone wants the newbies to learn the meta and/or learn how to play in a way that fits someone's niche play style. There will be none of that here.

You did use the word 'hate', and since I was being very vocal about new-player policy I thought I apply to the group you are mentioning, at least partially. Perhaps I took it a bit personally, because lately I was accused of being "a vet who only wants to stomp".

I look at it a little different, less as a reason to want to be away from the new players, more as a chance to teach. I am not judging you, I know some people can be difficult, and I entirely understand all of the arguments for and against New players. None of that is what I am talking about.

Fair enough. As written above.

I am looking for solutions to the problem, preferably with as little emotion as possible. Just pure, unbiased ideas. And as I said before, not just ways to separate people, because I know that is not the only solution. I am looking for any ideas that people think could help the problem, either on its own, or in tandem with other ideas. In short, I am looking for results, not explanations on why we need them.

I understand your point, but I believe that changing values such as novice lvl cap or XP bonus is the easiest to implement and the fastest to test way to tackle that problem. Also, as a pre-matchmaker player I find it natural for novice to last some time and I think it's good, it give you time to learn in non-veteran environment. Personally I tried to remain in novice lobbies as long as I could.
Other than that, there's not much opportunity to improve with low costs (both in time and money) remaining. Achievement thing is problematic and tutorial rehaul (although needed) is more of a long-term goal than instant, cheap patch.

Interestingly enough, CS:GO has very average tutorial but MANY people play it. As I said many times: good games defend themselves.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: new players
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2015, 06:10:12 am »
You mean the game that didnt have a tutorial where players figured it out themselves in a long time ago until CS:GO came out?

CS always had a large playerbase.

Offline Lanliss

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Re: new players
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2015, 04:12:18 pm »
I apologize. I actually did not remember writing the word hate, nor did I spot it when I skimmed back over my writing.

XP bonuses might be applicable, but I still do not believe levels mean much. Sure, a lvl 45 pilot is obviously gonna be good, or at least decent, but as a lvl 15, I am better than a lot of lvl 20-30s I have seen. Levels do not mean much about your skill until you are 35+.

Also, please explain why the achievement thing is problematic. I want the devs to be able to see all the pros and cons of the ideas, in as much detail as possible.

Offline Indreams

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Re: new players
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2015, 04:29:38 pm »
There's usually a difference between one digit and two digits. There's a pretty good difference between 10~29 and 30+. There's a good difference between competitive and noncompetitive. There's a huge difference between two digit matches, three digit matches, and four digit matches.

A new player is usually one digit level and two digit matches. This is where the player is getting better.   :-\
An average player is 10~29 with three digit matches. This is where the player is often decent.  :)
A good player is 30+ with high three digit matches. They are usually reliable, and can teach new players.  :D
A legendary player is usually competitive with four digit matches. They wreck public games, and are a menace to the skies  :P
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 04:32:34 pm by Indreams »

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: new players
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2015, 04:40:33 pm »

Offline Lanliss

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Re: new players
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2015, 04:42:49 pm »
Dammit Schwalbe, you made me spit coffee everywhere.

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: new players
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2015, 04:46:22 pm »
Then you might be able to suffer my torment with a little greater sense of retribution, hehe, you can heh, walk a mile IN MY SHOES

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: new players
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2015, 04:53:36 pm »
Correction- no player can wreck a public match, they need accomplices, though the accomplices may be lower level.

If the gunner starts shooting flak at the same time as hades and is reloading by the time armor breaks, nothing even the best pilot can do except suggest/cajole/plead/rage/ragequit.

Offline Indreams

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Re: new players
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2015, 04:57:27 pm »

You did use the word 'hate',

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE.

Schwaibe, "I have no mouth and I must scream".

I read the story out of curiosity from one of your past posts.
My eyes wouldn't close for two days. Slugs were crawling in my mind.
It was like a hole in the sky.

I think you've had more than a retribution here.  :P

Offline Lanliss

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Re: new players
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2015, 04:59:54 pm »
Correction- no player can wreck a public match, they need accomplices, though the accomplices may be lower level.

If the gunner starts shooting flak at the same time as hades and is reloading by the time armor breaks, nothing even the best pilot can do except suggest/cajole/plead/rage/ragequit.

That is my favorite part of this game. No matter how hardcore or pro a player is, whatever his/her role on the ship, it is impossible to singularly carry a team. You need teamwork to do anything at all in Guns, and I love it so much.