Author Topic: 1.3.6 Tar Changes  (Read 9311 times)

Offline awkm

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1.3.6 Tar Changes
« on: April 28, 2014, 03:20:30 pm »
Previously, you could exploit how tar worked.  Tar releases a cloud every 3 seconds.  It applied damage once that 3 seconds was up, so at the end of the sequence.  Tapping Tar and deactivating it within 3 seconds would prevent any damage.  You can't do that anymore.

There was some complaint to its effectiveness after the fix, therefore pointing out a imbalance in its original form.  So some changes were made to make it a little better.

Comments here.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: 1.3.6 Tar Changes
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2014, 12:22:18 pm »
I miss the old tar where I could get a respectable cloud behind me for 1/2 second's tar usage. I know it as an exploit, but I trained my muscle memory around that exploit.  Perhaps I could still get the cloud but the damage the cloud does to other ships would be proportional to how long I left the tar on for the 3 seconds used to generate the cloud. Most of the time I use tar to create some soft cover while running with my tail between my legs.

Offline Dementio

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Re: 1.3.6 Tar Changes
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2014, 05:08:12 pm »
I use Tar Barrel on Squid. I use tar to escape. I can't use tar anymore because there is Tar only every 3 or so seconds while the skill is activated. Non-stop kerosen and enemy gun-fire already put enough damage on those engines, especially with the immensive amount of flamethrower going on lately, how am I supposed to get a second tar cloud going?
Also, tar is easily dodged even on a pyra without buff, thus I can barely hit anything at all and when I do, the damage seems to be just too little. Maybe you can trap a galleon with tar, if it isn't blasting it's hwachas into your behind.
A Junker or Spire making 1 tar cloud every once in a while might actually pull it off, but that can't be all right?

So, I have a question now: What is Tar useful now? Because I don't get it.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 05:11:39 pm by Dementio »

Offline awkm

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Re: 1.3.6 Tar Changes
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2014, 05:17:07 pm »
Tar creates 1 cloud immediately as it did before.  The difference now is that you take the damage immediately instead of at the end of the 3 seconds when it creates the second cloud and so on.

I'll be taking a look at Tar Barrel for the future.  Some suggestions from dev app so far include bigger hit boxes or 'shooting' them out so to speak.

Offline Omniraptor

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Re: 1.3.6 Tar Changes
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2014, 07:38:10 pm »
Most people don't use tar for damage anyway.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: 1.3.6 Tar Changes
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2014, 08:18:39 pm »
I'm fairly sue tar takes three seconds to come out. Also as Omni said, the use of tar is generally the veil, not the dagger. The damage isn't bad, but having to wait three seconds is.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: 1.3.6 Tar Changes
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2014, 03:26:28 pm »
So playing around with tar a bit this afternoon and it is quite weird right now. Basically you can use tar every three or so seconds but the thing is this doesn't reset. So if you hit tar for a second at the very beginning of the match, it shoots the tar out the back and only damages for that one second. However, at some point you will have to cycle out the tar so to speak, aka leave it on for the downtime before it can shoot again. I really hope this isn't working as intended because it is incredibly wonky to use. There is no cue best as I can tell so trying to cycle the tar in the off time feels almost like luck, trying to make sure you don't accidentally leave it on too long out of combat and having to reset it again. It makes tar nearly impossible to use as unless you've got a great inner clock and memory, you won't know if the tar will be coming out in one, two, or three seconds.

Offline Puppy Fur

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Re: 1.3.6 Tar Changes
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2014, 07:10:20 pm »
Since it now damages engines more then my normal tools, and stops me from using my piloting tools in between each cloud, I find it useless. It doesn't allow you to escape a situation with it effectively, it doesn't allow you to keep a tar cloud on a moving target (can't use tools, heavy damage to engines), it's small damage increase means nothing if you can't effectively tar the enemy in the first place and keep them tarred.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 07:13:22 pm by Puppy Fur »

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: 1.3.6 Tar Changes
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2014, 12:41:51 am »
Tar does not move with the wind anymore.

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: 1.3.6 Tar Changes
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2014, 10:05:20 am »
The tar cloud seems to take longer to activate than normal. It looks like the cloud expands after it deploys. Most of ships I have tried to tar have been able to move through the cloud while it is still expanding.

Offline Puppy Fur

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Re: 1.3.6 Tar Changes
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2014, 06:04:35 pm »
The tar cloud seems to take longer to activate than normal. It looks like the cloud expands after it deploys. Most of ships I have tried to tar have been able to move through the cloud while it is still expanding.
I've noticed this a bit too. This also is a big hit to the tar as well... Like it needed more of a hit e.e;

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: 1.3.6 Tar Changes
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2014, 07:11:53 pm »
Technically its not that it takes longer, basically tar has to be on for three seconds before it can be used again.You have to "purge" the systems so to speak.

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: 1.3.6 Tar Changes
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2014, 05:18:07 am »
It takes 3 seconds for the cloud to expand and cover the ship you want to hit. You have to create two or three clouds in order for a ship to run into it. I have also noticed that if you turn it on and off like before you might not get a cloud of tar but your engines will still take damage. Pilots will need to keep it turned on for 6-9 seconds In order to disable a ship with tar. The ship will also need to be directly behind you because of the way tar is deploying.

I would like to see the radius increased with less damage or duration to compensate.

Offline Watchmaker

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Re: 1.3.6 Tar Changes
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2014, 12:02:22 pm »
To clarify how this works: there is no "expanding" of the cloud.  After every 3 seconds of taking damage, one cloud is instantaneously spawned - the way it's currently implemented you also effectively get one "freebie" cloud per ship life the first time you toggle tar on. 

The visuals fade in more gradually in order to avoid being terribly jarring, but the damage and logical effects of the cloud (timing out spots, for example) should begin to kick in immediately.  If you're seeing something otherwise, that would be a bug, but my own sandbox testing seems to indicate that I start taking damage immediately (testing by backpedaling into my own cloud.)

In the previous, bugged version, a cloud would spawn every third second if tar barrel happened to be selected; whether or not it was selected in between had no bearing, so you could avoid most of the damage.

No longer affected by wind: that also sounds like a bug, and this one I can reproduce.  Logged for fixing.

EDIT: Also, Sammy et al, I do see your point about it feeling a bit unpredictable right now.  Awkm and I have talked a bit about other ways this could work; I'm trying to avoid a complete rework of how we handle pilot skills right now but we'll see.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 03:10:31 pm by Watchmaker »

Offline Puppy Fur

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Re: 1.3.6 Tar Changes
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2014, 04:21:21 pm »
Ah, the visual changes confuse me a bit. I don't know when the tar cloud has been sprung till a little after. But the base issues I mentioned still stand.

Tar, in my opinion, was only useable by two ships before the patch. Junker and Squid. They had the manouverablity required to keep tar on an enemy (using pilot tools the full 3 seconds in between each cloud). That in the first place limits the use of it. Expecting anyone to use it now while you can't do that effectively doesn't make sense to me (you can't tar enemies and keep them tarred effectively and also can't run away effectively, it's two major uses).

If you watched competitive events of me using tar it took a lot of risk and work to tar an enemy effectively and even them the risk wasn't always worth it. You have to be extremely close to an enemy. With a squid that's almost a death wish unless a friendly ship is distracting them. With a junker you loose all weapon arcs. Both big downsides.

I hope I worded things correctly. I'm not the best speaker but I feel strongely about this... The person who uses squid competitively.