Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: awkm on April 28, 2014, 03:20:30 pm
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Previously, you could exploit how tar worked. Tar releases a cloud every 3 seconds. It applied damage once that 3 seconds was up, so at the end of the sequence. Tapping Tar and deactivating it within 3 seconds would prevent any damage. You can't do that anymore.
There was some complaint to its effectiveness after the fix, therefore pointing out a imbalance in its original form. So some changes were made to make it a little better.
Comments here.
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I miss the old tar where I could get a respectable cloud behind me for 1/2 second's tar usage. I know it as an exploit, but I trained my muscle memory around that exploit. Perhaps I could still get the cloud but the damage the cloud does to other ships would be proportional to how long I left the tar on for the 3 seconds used to generate the cloud. Most of the time I use tar to create some soft cover while running with my tail between my legs.
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I use Tar Barrel on Squid. I use tar to escape. I can't use tar anymore because there is Tar only every 3 or so seconds while the skill is activated. Non-stop kerosen and enemy gun-fire already put enough damage on those engines, especially with the immensive amount of flamethrower going on lately, how am I supposed to get a second tar cloud going?
Also, tar is easily dodged even on a pyra without buff, thus I can barely hit anything at all and when I do, the damage seems to be just too little. Maybe you can trap a galleon with tar, if it isn't blasting it's hwachas into your behind.
A Junker or Spire making 1 tar cloud every once in a while might actually pull it off, but that can't be all right?
So, I have a question now: What is Tar useful now? Because I don't get it.
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Tar creates 1 cloud immediately as it did before. The difference now is that you take the damage immediately instead of at the end of the 3 seconds when it creates the second cloud and so on.
I'll be taking a look at Tar Barrel for the future. Some suggestions from dev app so far include bigger hit boxes or 'shooting' them out so to speak.
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Most people don't use tar for damage anyway.
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I'm fairly sue tar takes three seconds to come out. Also as Omni said, the use of tar is generally the veil, not the dagger. The damage isn't bad, but having to wait three seconds is.
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So playing around with tar a bit this afternoon and it is quite weird right now. Basically you can use tar every three or so seconds but the thing is this doesn't reset. So if you hit tar for a second at the very beginning of the match, it shoots the tar out the back and only damages for that one second. However, at some point you will have to cycle out the tar so to speak, aka leave it on for the downtime before it can shoot again. I really hope this isn't working as intended because it is incredibly wonky to use. There is no cue best as I can tell so trying to cycle the tar in the off time feels almost like luck, trying to make sure you don't accidentally leave it on too long out of combat and having to reset it again. It makes tar nearly impossible to use as unless you've got a great inner clock and memory, you won't know if the tar will be coming out in one, two, or three seconds.
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Since it now damages engines more then my normal tools, and stops me from using my piloting tools in between each cloud, I find it useless. It doesn't allow you to escape a situation with it effectively, it doesn't allow you to keep a tar cloud on a moving target (can't use tools, heavy damage to engines), it's small damage increase means nothing if you can't effectively tar the enemy in the first place and keep them tarred.
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Tar does not move with the wind anymore.
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The tar cloud seems to take longer to activate than normal. It looks like the cloud expands after it deploys. Most of ships I have tried to tar have been able to move through the cloud while it is still expanding.
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The tar cloud seems to take longer to activate than normal. It looks like the cloud expands after it deploys. Most of ships I have tried to tar have been able to move through the cloud while it is still expanding.
I've noticed this a bit too. This also is a big hit to the tar as well... Like it needed more of a hit e.e;
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Technically its not that it takes longer, basically tar has to be on for three seconds before it can be used again.You have to "purge" the systems so to speak.
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It takes 3 seconds for the cloud to expand and cover the ship you want to hit. You have to create two or three clouds in order for a ship to run into it. I have also noticed that if you turn it on and off like before you might not get a cloud of tar but your engines will still take damage. Pilots will need to keep it turned on for 6-9 seconds In order to disable a ship with tar. The ship will also need to be directly behind you because of the way tar is deploying.
I would like to see the radius increased with less damage or duration to compensate.
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To clarify how this works: there is no "expanding" of the cloud. After every 3 seconds of taking damage, one cloud is instantaneously spawned - the way it's currently implemented you also effectively get one "freebie" cloud per ship life the first time you toggle tar on.
The visuals fade in more gradually in order to avoid being terribly jarring, but the damage and logical effects of the cloud (timing out spots, for example) should begin to kick in immediately. If you're seeing something otherwise, that would be a bug, but my own sandbox testing seems to indicate that I start taking damage immediately (testing by backpedaling into my own cloud.)
In the previous, bugged version, a cloud would spawn every third second if tar barrel happened to be selected; whether or not it was selected in between had no bearing, so you could avoid most of the damage.
No longer affected by wind: that also sounds like a bug, and this one I can reproduce. Logged for fixing.
EDIT: Also, Sammy et al, I do see your point about it feeling a bit unpredictable right now. Awkm and I have talked a bit about other ways this could work; I'm trying to avoid a complete rework of how we handle pilot skills right now but we'll see.
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Ah, the visual changes confuse me a bit. I don't know when the tar cloud has been sprung till a little after. But the base issues I mentioned still stand.
Tar, in my opinion, was only useable by two ships before the patch. Junker and Squid. They had the manouverablity required to keep tar on an enemy (using pilot tools the full 3 seconds in between each cloud). That in the first place limits the use of it. Expecting anyone to use it now while you can't do that effectively doesn't make sense to me (you can't tar enemies and keep them tarred effectively and also can't run away effectively, it's two major uses).
If you watched competitive events of me using tar it took a lot of risk and work to tar an enemy effectively and even them the risk wasn't always worth it. You have to be extremely close to an enemy. With a squid that's almost a death wish unless a friendly ship is distracting them. With a junker you loose all weapon arcs. Both big downsides.
I hope I worded things correctly. I'm not the best speaker but I feel strongely about this... The person who uses squid competitively.
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This brings new meaning to the phrase taricide.
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EDIT: Also, Sammy et al, I do see your point about it feeling a bit unpredictable right now. Awkm and I have talked a bit about other ways this could work; I'm trying to avoid a complete rework of how we handle pilot skills right now but we'll see.
Why not make the tool similar to hydrogen and chute vent. You trigger it, get the benefit immediately but the component damage continues afterwards for some time. This means you still have to damage the components, get tar on the front, and make it predictable.
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I 100% agree with Sammy. That seems like the best way to fix it.
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So I guess no tar barrel till the next patch? It currently next to unusable due to the current mechanism as it practically unpredictable. Why is it possible to have chute vent and hydrogen and have the damage continue after the tool is off but not do the same for tar barrel? With the current having to keep the tool on to cycle it out, without any sort of cue as to whether the next second you turn on will be the second of tar or recharge, this tool which, as best as I can tell never had a single complaint about being over powered, is now more a liability than a help.
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yes please, tar is broken, do as sammy suggests
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May I dare to ask if it's not possible to bring back the "original" tar barrel? Or make it act like it did before? A new cloud every 1 seconds or so that does X damage to your engines? Since there were barely any to no complaints about it and it's questionable usability on almost any ship, I see no problems by making it so.
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Did any one notice the damage it does now? I want THIS tar kept.
It lasts longer for utility stealth uses.
It does not move with the wind which is nice.
My only gripe is its visual is a bit misleading, it should spawn instantanious but seems to expand at first.
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Did any one notice the damage it does now? I want THIS tar kept.
It lasts longer for utility stealth uses.
It does not move with the wind which is nice.
My only gripe is its visual is a bit misleading, it should spawn instantanious but seems to expand at first.
I actually think the amount of damage it does is op...
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The way in which it looks won't make it in until another patch.
Damage can be changed whenever. But given its current problems of actually getting someone into tar... fair trade off?
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Its fundamentally changed the tool from an escape method to a somewhat unpredictable weapon. So no, not a fair trade off.
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Gonna use squid as my reference.
New tar:
Bad:
Can't hold down tar due to excessive self damage.
Can't manouver due to having to let go of tar and also wait for repairs.
Can't tar someone with any speed(due to the above).
Can't use it as cover to run away without loosing tons of speed and making your engines weaker to incoming fire.
Tar clouds appear slower, making it harder to know where exactly it is, if the enemy is in it or not, and when it activated.
Neutral: Apparently it doesn't move with the wind I've heard? Personally, I used that to my advantage a lot but others may like this better.
Good:
It does more damage which it didn't need since previous tar killed everything anyway.
I've been thinking a while and can't find anything else to put under the 'good' catagory. Remember, tar was barely a thing before and many people knew there was no downside. Why would this make anyone want to touch it now?
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I will have to aggree Puppy Fur on everything. By "fixing" the tool it was broken.
As a side note to the current Tar mechanic: It seems that when you activate Tar and quickly let go of it the Tar does not get activated fully. I had it activate for 3 seconds and deactivated it the very second I saw black stuff forming behind me and activated it later on, it seemed to bring out the rest of it.
I may just be hallucinating though.
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Should mention tar is still in this state...
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Working on it.
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Working on it.
Yay!
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Tar is OK to use...
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I was flying a bit last night with it as I was in a junker but not facing any blenders. If it is still useful, the utility of it escapes me and previously I was one of the most consistent user of tar in competitive. The lack of immediateness of this and the increased damage makes it useless as an escape tool. If you want it to be primarily a weapon then you ought to make a new tool for a screen. It was very disappointing to use and tarring used to be major component of my playstyle. Please revert to the way it was, you know the way that no one complained about.
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I'm with ya on that Sammy.
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Minus the fact is was broken by quickly tapping it on and not sustaining engine damage. The mechanics of it were fine though.
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There are some changes on how tar works in the next patch. If the numbers need changed when that goes in we'll definitely be looking at tweaking them. The change is going to be something a bit different, so adjusting the numbers right this moment won't be very meaningful. So just hold on and we will definitely be looking for feedback on it soon.
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For the record, I'm ok with Tar being so that Sammy never uses it again.
That is all.
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Just return tar to its previous tappable state, but make it so that it damages engines. Problem solved! The only dealbreaker with tar right now is its unpredictability.