they dont want a dog-fighting game they want a "naval" battle in the air.The concept of dog fighting is the same as shooters these days. Things die with a couple clicks and you move on. Your initial positioning and response decide the fight, then it is over and you move on to the next fight. Maybe I am missing something here, but when matches are played to 5 kills, that is clearly not the style Muse wants, and I'm not sure where you got that idea in the first place. But the idea that a naval battle is just a slow slug fest is absurd as well, especially with the additional cover we have in our matches. Captains in the old style naval battles with galleons etc had to be absurdly good at what they did. The entire crew had to work like a well oiled machine, and one slip up could give an opponent the chance to take victory.
"get your guns in range and in arc and do your best to hover in that position" [...] as you and i know to attempt to RELY on maneuvering as part of your strategy really does not work very well.I... what? Are we playing the same game? 95% of my play style is about maneuvering. Get in fast, take out their balloon, and maneuver so you can respond to their ally if need be while working down your initial target. The few times I am not closing distance, I will be maneuvering around trying to find the best place to open fire on one ship, with cover from the other, along with several options for escape into cover. I take piloting to be a very active role. My engines are almost always doing something. I am never just hovering. Sounds boring.
strafing run on a galleon and getting out before he could turn his guns to bear on you.I mean... you still can, but what's the point? The game is established in having engineers and having repairable armor covering the only actual permanent health on the ship. A strafing run will get you approximately nowhere as any damage you can do in one run will be quickly repaired.
gilder you know how much i agree with you but honestly no matter how much noise we are able to raise it wont matter because muse does not want the same type of game you and i want. they dont want a dog-fighting game they want a "naval" battle in the air. "get your guns in range and in arc and do your best to hover in that position" is the kind of game muse wants. sure they will throw in some minimal maneuverability in there because it is in the air after all but as you and i know to attempt to RELY on maneuvering as part of your strategy really does not work very well.The way the game plays in regular pug matches and the way they play in top level competitive matches are two very different things. Most pug matches are super brawly.
i would love for any of the MUSE folks to jump in here and tell me they really do want the feel of dog-fighting aerial combat to be part of the game because then maybe we could explain to them that at this moment it does not exist. maybe then they would ask for feedback on how to make it better and we could tell them about the times when sliding to the back of a junker mattered or how much fun it used to be doing a strafing run on a galleon and getting out before he could turn his guns to bear on you. but honestly i dont think the problem is a broken game but a game that is heading in a direction you and i (and unfortunately many others) dont like...
The way the game plays in regular pug matches and the way they play in top level competitive matches are two very different things. Most pug matches are super brawly.Even competitive matches can be brawly. Half the fun of competitive is seeing who will bring what and if they will be able to force their range on their opponent. There are team(s) that love to brawl and will do anything they can to force the issue.
What exactly is this thread about?
How clans are not supported?
How much competitive and not competitive currently does/doesn't suck?
What needs to be changed on (certain) ships to make scenario X happening?
Why new players will never be old players?
What impossible thing NEEDS to be added to make scenario X happening?
I am seriously confused here...
There's some serious Rose-colored glasses syndrome going on with that.What exactly is this thread about?
How clans are not supported?
How much competitive and not competitive currently does/doesn't suck?
What needs to be changed on (certain) ships to make scenario X happening?
Why new players will never be old players?
What impossible thing NEEDS to be added to make scenario X happening?
I am seriously confused here...
It's about how some players want the fast paced dog fighting action the game had back in the day.
However we don't only see sniping matches. We see a lot of them, but not just sniping matches, and the snipers don't always win. If the snipers were consistently winning, your argument would hold water, but the sniping team doesn't always win.
2) Once again, the amount of percentage these matches make up is probably what... 5% of the matches played? Leaving competition aside, is any of this that big of an issue for what almost everyone else plays the game like?
I can sympathize with changes made to remove the power of camping. However the mandarins are really not a good example of conservative play. Hell even the gents have been playing more aggressively as of late. The presence of longer range guns does not necessarily mean camp festsWhile I realize that you prefer dynamic engagements which involve close range weapons, that certainly did not happen in your last set vs the Gents. Your right side only came into play when 1) the Gents ill-fatedly attempted to spawn behind you, and 2) in the third game they had to charge facing a time limit loss, which also ended poorly for them.
Key words there: The Gents. Not trying to be down on the gents, but they are notorious for finding their sniping spot and not moving.I can sympathize with changes made to remove the power of camping. However the mandarins are really not a good example of conservative play. Hell even the gents have been playing more aggressively as of late. The presence of longer range guns does not necessarily mean camp festsWhile I realize that you prefer dynamic engagements which involve close range weapons, that certainly did not happen in your last set vs the Gents. Your right side only came into play when 1) the Gents ill-fatedly attempted to spawn behind you, and 2) in the third game they had to charge facing a time limit loss, which also ended poorly for them.
VOD:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcnWn_8_RL4
One reason that most competitive teams turn to sniping is because of the high skill level involved, and the lower risk.A good summary of a lot of what I tried to say.
Long story short(er) is that my opinion is that it's the teams that choose to play that way, and the spawns, maps, and ships have only a minor effect on that.I tend to agree. I think the ships have the least effect. I think the ships are pretty close to being balanced (which was the point of this thread).
While I realize that you prefer dynamic engagements which involve close range weapons, that certainly did not happen in your last set vs the Gents. Your right side only came into play when 1) the Gents ill-fatedly attempted to spawn behind you, and 2) in the third game they had to charge facing a time limit loss, which also ended poorly for them.
VOD:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcnWn_8_RL4
How do you balance the game so that every play style can be competitive? How do you balance the weapons and ships so that brawling and disabling is just as strong as sniping?]
Just popping in to say I actually agree with Gilder for once, lol.
Also I've been away for a long time, still no new heavy guns? Like, you know, something for CLOSE range? :P
Yeah, the H Carronade is sooooo bad at close range.So is the Hwacha, just literally the worst.
Yeah, the H Carronade is sooooo bad at close range.
So is the Hwacha, just literally the worst.
Look, I get it, you don't like the hwacha. Yes, it's a slow reload, and yes, heavy guns are very much in danger of getting knocked out of commission by art/merc/gat pretty easily. I understand that you may not like the way the hwacha forces you to play, but here's the thing: they're still viable. You made a crazy hyperbolic statement along the lines of there's no good close range heavy weapons, and you got about an equal quality response.Yeah, the H Carronade is sooooo bad at close range.
I detect the sarcasm, but quite honestly, if a certain someone never touched them since 1.2, they would be at a much better place that was BALANCED if I may add. But no, they got buffs in places nobody asked for and then nerfed to an even worse state than they were in 1.2, with less range and longer reloads.
They are not bad, but to me it felt like shit when I had to put up with this.So is the Hwacha, just literally the worst.
Again, the sarcasm is easily detected, but on a serious note, your 14 second realod rocked battery is not my definition of 'fun' for a close range build, which is probably the case with Janeway as well, I would ask you respect our opinion just like we respect yours without sleazy sarcasms.
Close range builds to me are all about the DPS, to keep the guns firing and over-stress the enemy, not firing a single rocket barrage and wait for a long ass reload, this is not fun for me as a pilot or my gunner, at least in my experience in the game and when I played with my teammates, the least favorite gun was the Hwacha for the most part, it's simply not as fun as the Carronades or the sniper guns. The Hwacha also heavily restricts your manuvering as you HAVE to keep the ship still in order for your gunner to get a good shot, unlike weapons like a Gatling or a Carronade that can keep up with the ship's pace.
Anyway, this is a thread discussing ships, so I will not further go into this, but do mind where you throw your sarcasm around, it doesn't help anyone.
Look, I get it, you don't like the hwacha. Yes, it's a slow reload, and yes, heavy guns are very much in danger of getting knocked out of commission by art/merc/gat pretty easily. I understand that you may not like the way the hwacha forces you to play, but here's the thing: they're still viable. You made a crazy hyperbolic statement along the lines of there's no good close range heavy weapons, and you got about an equal quality response.
You could make an argument that light guns are just inherently better than heavy currently in general, that may have more ground to stand on, though I'd venture to point at the gents love of the galleon and their tournament win record.
I'm gonna start a new thread called "how is it that a game the requires no monthly fee to play and is owned by thousands of people around the world can't get anyone to continue to play?" and the first reply will be "maybe it's because of how awesome sniping is!"Yeah so, that's not sarcasm, that just petty spite and completely false. I suggest stopping before you make a real fool of yourself.
and the second will simply read: "it's the ducks fault"
(p.s. I don't mind sarcasm)
I'm gonna start a new thread called "how is it that a game the requires no monthly fee to play and is owned by thousands of people around the world can't get anyone to continue to play?" and the first reply will be "maybe it's because of how awesome sniping is!"Yeah so, that's not sarcasm, that just petty spite and completely false. I suggest stopping before you make a real fool of yourself.
and the second will simply read: "it's the ducks fault"
(p.s. I don't mind sarcasm)
I agree about reducing heavy gun rebuild time, and possibly increasing their health so they take 3 direct artemis shots to kill, not 2.
Hellhound and barking dog need hitscan projectiles, or at least tracers. Currently it's very difficult to hit components with them. Their other stats are imo fine however.
I'm gonna start a new thread called "how is it that a game the requires no monthly fee to play and is owned by thousands of people around the world can't get anyone to continue to play?" and the first reply will be "maybe it's because of how awesome sniping is!"Yeah so, that's not sarcasm, that just petty spite and completely false. I suggest stopping before you make a real fool of yourself.
and the second will simply read: "it's the ducks fault"
(p.s. I don't mind sarcasm)
Psst guys, want to know a secret?Hahaha. I just noticed that you put text down in the bottom right. I thought you asked the question then were just gonna wait for someone to bite. XDBrawling is still viable; please stop whining.
Pilot and engineering skill sets and cooperation now have to catch up.
PS: You know what else I miss? Good ol' bugged Kerozene. Which honestly felt much of a medium between the purely speed or turning focused Moonshine and Phoenix, which allowed more diversity in pilot builds without having to sacrifice ALL your mobility or ALL your utility.
Pyra, the bloated lawn dart. Now we have the speed, but the turning is infuriating. This ship was nerfed to answer the cries of the community which complained about how OP it was. Well, good job people, you got what you wanted. But at the same time we've got teams that have left the game because they just can't stand it anymore. Its a weak vessel and instead of supplementing it, Muse nerfed it again with hull hp reduction and 20% weight reduction. Pyras are not ships to fear anymore, nor are they liked as much. They're slow, lumbering and completely at the mercy of their opponents being morons that don't see them as an easy kill.
Right now pilots are less about flying skill, and more about decision making and strategy. Once you're in a situation, there's not a whole lot you can do to change that. If the enemy sneaks up on you with a metamidion, you can hydro, vent, phoenix claw, etc; but mostly it's "Oh, guess we're dead now." Because any movement you make isn't fast or dramatic enough to throw them off enough to spare you. You need to be prepared ahead of time for that kind of event, and no amount of skill will save you (most of the time).
That's one way of interpreting it. I do love the tactical part, but beyond that there's not a lot of skill in the actual piloting part. There's not a lot of high skill maneuvers to perform or fancy flying. Most of the time I hear players say "Wow! You're a great pilot" is when I move my ship through a narrow area without getting glued to buildings and losing half the armor. That's a pretty low bar.
Piloting, however, is mostly about macro: you have to know the game state, your opponents gun arcs, and your opponents *strategy,* and you have to be planning and executing the counter-strategy before they've even really started to act.
Another thing to consider is your ally (this game is about teamwork, right?). If you can't survive in a close range 1v1, get your teammate to help you out. Getting sniped at? Get your ally to kill them from behind. What else is he here for? To look pretty?
Also, you are the pilot and thus most likely the captain and the one responsible for the communication between ships in your team. So you better communicate.
If you could get away with everything in every situation without any help what so ever then, and only then, would I consider this game boring.
...But you do have to speed it the hell up to make the players the ones to be feared, not the ship.
Squid acceleration is fine IMO, but the top speed and turning acceleration/speed are too slow.
And the airships danced around each other, slowly and depressively....
Y'all think this is an airplane game when really it is closer to a navy game.
gilder you know how much i agree with you but honestly no matter how much noise we are able to raise it wont matter because muse does not want the same type of game you and i want. they dont want a dog-fighting game they want a "naval" battle in the air. "get your guns in range and in arc and do your best to hover in that position" is the kind of game muse wants. sure they will throw in some minimal maneuverability in there because it is in the air after all but as you and i know to attempt to RELY on maneuvering as part of your strategy really does not work very well.
i would love for any of the MUSE folks to jump in here and tell me they really do want the feel of dog-fighting aerial combat to be part of the game because then maybe we could explain to them that at this moment it does not exist. maybe then they would ask for feedback on how to make it better and we could tell them about the times when sliding to the back of a junker mattered or how much fun it used to be doing a strafing run on a galleon and getting out before he could turn his guns to bear on you. but honestly i dont think the problem is a broken game but a game that is heading in a direction you and i (and unfortunately many others) dont like...
And the airships danced around each other, slowly and depressively....
Then the captains that they should play less passively.
Y'all act like just because you can't have a space fighter blimp that you have to just barely move at all and limp everywhere. Get over yourself.
this is not a brawler vs sniper thread. e.g. I think an increase in speed could make sniping more fun also. get with the program; more agile flying is more fun flying in our opinion. this opinion is of course supported with our correlating the lack of player retention with the lack of fun/speed
After these two patches I noticed a drop in the player base. Mostly from competitive teams that only used pyramidions.Which also happened to coincide with various big name youtubers making videos and various steam sales/humble bundle deals. Throughout the length of the game whenever something like that has happened there's been a large surge of players of which most end up moving to the next big sensation.
1.3.2
- Pyramidion: Mass 200t (from 260t), Hull Health 700 (from 800)
- Mortar: Spread 1.5 degrees (from 0), Range 550m (from 1875m), Pitch and Yaw speed 65 degree/s (from 60 and 50 degree/s, respectively), 35 Explosive Direct / 60 Explosive AoE (from 20/60)
1.3.3
- Mortar: Jitter increased to 3 degrees (from 1.5 degrees), Yaw Speed decreased to 30 degrees/s (from 65 degrees/s), Max range reduced to 400m (from 600m), Clip size reduced to 12 (from 16)
- Gatling Gun: Jitter decreased to 3 degrees (from 3.5), Muzzle speed increased to 500m/s (from 200m/s), Range decreased to 450m (from 700m), Clip size increased to 80 (from 60), Direct damage reduced to 7.5 Piercing (from 10 Piercing)
After these two patches I noticed a drop in the player base. Mostly from competitive teams that only used pyramidions.
im not trying to fight the nautical combat idea, im accepting it. all i was saying was IF the intention was to have close combat dog fighting like engagements, the short range weapons are not rewarding enough. [long range] isnt my cup of tea but i think muse agrees with you
Don't cherry pick your information.
Please, show me a non-major multiplayer-only title game that, after a set of youtube exposure videos has managed to retain a substantially larger amount of players than Goio has. I'm well aware what you and gilder and a few others have suggested, but there's zero evidence that something like it would actually have any sort of positive influence and would magically get all the peoples.Don't cherry pick your information.
im confused how this disproves this conversation; gilder and others are suggesting that a fast game would attract more players. The fact that new players have come because of sales and youtubers does not answer the question of why they left. Many games experience new comers for the same reasons and are able to retain those players, why not GOIO? i cant answer that question definitively but neither can you. you say "maybe such-and-such reason" and i say different. we are both essentially picking information and extrapolating conclusions that cant be proven or disproved.
I know a guy who lost interest in the game because of the Pyra/gat nerf. :PPlease, show me a non-major multiplayer-only title game that, after a set of youtube exposure videos has managed to retain a substantially larger amount of players than Goio has. I'm well aware what you and gilder and a few others have suggested, but there's zero evidence that something like it would actually have any sort of positive influence and would magically get all the peoples.Don't cherry pick your information.
im confused how this disproves this conversation; gilder and others are suggesting that a fast game would attract more players. The fact that new players have come because of sales and youtubers does not answer the question of why they left. Many games experience new comers for the same reasons and are able to retain those players, why not GOIO? i cant answer that question definitively but neither can you. you say "maybe such-and-such reason" and i say different. we are both essentially picking information and extrapolating conclusions that cant be proven or disproved.
All I did was point out what else was going on at those times which resulted in supposed player loss which directly contradicts the doom and gloom of awmahger nerfed the pyra and everyone left spew that was happening.
Congrats, you know a guy. Singular.I know a guy who lost interest in the game because of the Pyra/gat nerf. :PPlease, show me a non-major multiplayer-only title game that, after a set of youtube exposure videos has managed to retain a substantially larger amount of players than Goio has. I'm well aware what you and gilder and a few others have suggested, but there's zero evidence that something like it would actually have any sort of positive influence and would magically get all the peoples.Don't cherry pick your information.
im confused how this disproves this conversation; gilder and others are suggesting that a fast game would attract more players. The fact that new players have come because of sales and youtubers does not answer the question of why they left. Many games experience new comers for the same reasons and are able to retain those players, why not GOIO? i cant answer that question definitively but neither can you. you say "maybe such-and-such reason" and i say different. we are both essentially picking information and extrapolating conclusions that cant be proven or disproved.
All I did was point out what else was going on at those times which resulted in supposed player loss which directly contradicts the doom and gloom of awmahger nerfed the pyra and everyone left spew that was happening.
enough anecdotes and it can become a statistic!
yeah I know there is no way to actually prove causation (short of a statistically accurate survey) I and gilder are suggesting the possibility. but let's remember there is also no way to disprove it either.
I think the reason this game doesn't retain players well is because it is 100% reliant on working together with other people. They don't like that.I think that's fairly right. To elaborate, the focus on cooperation, tactics and teamwork necessitates longer lobbies and a slower pace of match as well as meaning that no individual can gain the satisfaction of claiming sole responsibility for some skilled move, because any truly skilled move is achieved by working together with the other 7+ members of the team. I don't think adjusting ship handling could ever really change that; anything that could be done to retain the impatient FPS crowd would destroy the character of the game and isn't really relevant to this discussion imo.
Congrats, you know a guy. Singular.I know a guy who lost interest in the game because of the Pyra/gat nerf. :PPlease, show me a non-major multiplayer-only title game that, after a set of youtube exposure videos has managed to retain a substantially larger amount of players than Goio has. I'm well aware what you and gilder and a few others have suggested, but there's zero evidence that something like it would actually have any sort of positive influence and would magically get all the peoples.Don't cherry pick your information.
im confused how this disproves this conversation; gilder and others are suggesting that a fast game would attract more players. The fact that new players have come because of sales and youtubers does not answer the question of why they left. Many games experience new comers for the same reasons and are able to retain those players, why not GOIO? i cant answer that question definitively but neither can you. you say "maybe such-and-such reason" and i say different. we are both essentially picking information and extrapolating conclusions that cant be proven or disproved.
All I did was point out what else was going on at those times which resulted in supposed player loss which directly contradicts the doom and gloom of awmahger nerfed the pyra and everyone left spew that was happening.
enough anecdotes and it can become a statistic!
Yep, that surely means literally everyone who's ever left the game did so because of that too.
Says the guy who continues to throw around personal insults like candy.Congrats, you know a guy. Singular.I know a guy who lost interest in the game because of the Pyra/gat nerf. :PPlease, show me a non-major multiplayer-only title game that, after a set of youtube exposure videos has managed to retain a substantially larger amount of players than Goio has. I'm well aware what you and gilder and a few others have suggested, but there's zero evidence that something like it would actually have any sort of positive influence and would magically get all the peoples.Don't cherry pick your information.
im confused how this disproves this conversation; gilder and others are suggesting that a fast game would attract more players. The fact that new players have come because of sales and youtubers does not answer the question of why they left. Many games experience new comers for the same reasons and are able to retain those players, why not GOIO? i cant answer that question definitively but neither can you. you say "maybe such-and-such reason" and i say different. we are both essentially picking information and extrapolating conclusions that cant be proven or disproved.
All I did was point out what else was going on at those times which resulted in supposed player loss which directly contradicts the doom and gloom of awmahger nerfed the pyra and everyone left spew that was happening.
enough anecdotes and it can become a statistic!
Yep, that surely means literally everyone who's ever left the game did so because of that too.
just like its my opinion that imagine has a hard time not sounding like an aggressive a-hole
Personally I was getting bored playing guns of metamidions, after the gat mortar nerf I got much more enjoyment out of the game as more and more builds became viable.I have yet to ever fly a metamidion, because i got bored of crewing them before i ever started piloting.