Author Topic: Realism has had it's fun...  (Read 99024 times)

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Realism has had it's fun...
« on: March 01, 2014, 06:46:40 pm »
Now its time to go back to more arcade style PVP gameplay. Seriously.

This movement is growing and I know I'm not the only one. I keep running into players in game who want the faster gameplay back and now I run into newer ones who wish it was too.

So I'm talking today to another and they point out something that really made me stop and think.

How many clans we had a year ago vs now? How many team startups we were seeing vs now? It pales in comparison and we've actually lost more than gained. Players come in fired up, then find out how dull competitive is, get pwned, and then off they go.

Then it hits ya...we're stagnating but its not due to dull ranged combat like everyone suspects. We're stagnating because the game just is too dumbed down. We've had a growing trend to nerfing. Slower ships, less powerful weapons, and arming timers up the wazoo. Everything done to prevent teams from being too strong but at the same breeding a community of range fighters.

When you look at that, it is a no brainer why teams say the heck with heavy brawling and go with range builds. Muse keeps trying to nerf and tune to make ranged play less optimal but we've got a game that makes it so that pilots who take risks have a much greater chance to fail than ever before. We don't just have 1 ship OP, we have a bunch that are under performing and make guns seem more OP than they actually are.

I've been on the fence at times but generally I'd rather see the faster action days back. Yes this coming from one who has done plenty of attrition Merc battles and won with them. But again, had Muse not touched the ships, we'd have never shifted to Merc combat. When it is clear snipers have nothing to fear from cqc teams and cqc teams are left with little to no option of combating a ranged team, something is wrong.

We've had a year under the iron boot of the realism crowd and it isn't working. All too often I hear,"wouldn't it be cool if this could do..." and then have to tell them, "yeah, that is how it used to be!" Then hear the predictable response of,"Why did it change?!!"

Muse you can do it. You've had a year to learn and to fine tune. You can bring back speed to the game without making 2hr flak battles a thing again. Realism has had it's fun ruling the PVP scene. But now you got COOP for that. Isn't it time arcade returns, loads their HF barrels with fistfuls of fun, and then crams it straight up some unsuspecting foe's engine at pointblank range and unloads with fury?!

Offline The Churrosaur

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2014, 07:41:09 pm »
*starts jumping up and down and cheering energetically*

Offline Thomas

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2014, 08:56:52 pm »
I'm not sure realism has had all that much of an effect on the competitive scene. Slowing the ships down, dealing with the maneuverability, changing the weapons, etc is all game balance; and very often the complete opposite of realism. I'm no weapons expert, but as far as I know, arming times aren't a thing. If you shoot a rocket, it's going to explode when it hits something regardless how close. As soon as it's fired, it's armed (I believe some of these weapons are based on velocity, which is often achieved immediately after leaving the barrel. This is more of a safety measure so they don't explode when you drop them).


For the competitive scene, there's a lot other bigger factors that affect it.

First is that it's mostly forum based. A lot of players are from steam and couldn't be bothered to check the forums if you paid them to. Most players aren't even aware of the GoIO forums.

Second, and also tied to the first, is the lack of in game clan support. Setting up a clan is a hassle, keeping track of clans is a hassle, keeping track of clan members, organizing them, etc; is a hassle. It's all on the players to do these things and more. Although this will likely see a huge improvement in the near-ish future.

Third is the competitive structure itself. Due to the relatively small population, everyone is put into the same competition. This makes it really hard for newer clans and teams to actually compete; as there's a -massive- learning curve. Hopefully matchmaking will help ease this learning curve, as the players get better, they'll get grouped with better players and get into more intense matches. Instead of being forced to pub-stomp and think you're good; or going through the hassle of setting up a scrimmage with another clan. Then of course there's the casting. Don't get me wrong, I love the competition being streamed, but they tend to be very harsh and unforgiving to any kind of mistake. I've actually seen a clan fall apart and stop playing the game from how the casters acted towards them.

Fourth is the clans, which is actually an odd one. Quick, list all the clans you know! You probably got a fair amount of them before you finished reading this sentence. Now how many members do those clans have? And there's an issue. Some clans just have an incredible amount of players, especially the ones that are well known for competing. It's not the clans' fault really, as most players just like larger clans (or want to be on the winning team). Which is why some clans have well over 100 members, and other clans struggle to get 10. This is where the competitive scene got a little weird, changing from competing clans, to competing teams. Accommodating the large clans who can support multiple teams, and in turn removing some of the disadvantages of joining a large clan (if each clan could only have one team, players would be more likely to join a smaller clan so they could compete. Instead they can join a large clan and still compete).


But that's me going off on a tangent.


--------------------------------

Personally I wouldn't mind ships being a little faster and more maneuverable. But of course you have to consider what that will do to the game. Long range becomes a lot less powerful since ships are more difficult to hit. Close range engagements take longer as well because ships make sudden movements easier to dodge attacks and slip out of bad positions.

Now I do love a brawly build myself, and really enjoy the faster ships (squid), even though it feels like we're flying through mud sometimes with how easy we are to hit, even at top speeds with sudden bursts of movement (hydro, chute, moonshine).

I wouldn't say to go back to a time where ships could dance around each other, but I could get on board with a moderate boost to maneuverability and speed, especially for the ships that rely on those.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2014, 09:28:37 pm »
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,767.msg13544.html#msg13544

- Rebalanced ship acceleration/speed profiles
-- Top Forward Speed (fastest to slowest): Squid, Goldfish, Pyramidion, Galleon, Junker, Spire
-- Forward Acceleration (fastest to slowest): Squid, Junker, Goldfish, Spire, Pyramidion, Galleon
-- Top Turn Speed (fastest to slowest): Squid, Junker, Goldfish, Spire, Pyramidion, Galleon
-- Turn Acceleration (fastest to slowest): Squid, Spire, Junker, Goldfish, Pyramidion, Galleon
-- Mass (largest to smallest): Galleon, Pyramidion, Spire, Goldfish, Junker, Squid
-- Vertical Acceleration (fastest to slowest, all top vertical speed is 12m/s): Squid, Spire, Goldfish, Junker, Pyramidion, Galleon


- Fixed a bug where ships used different mass values for damage/momentum calculations and for engine acceleration (caused several peculiar situations)

The big one is the last line. Previous to Guns as we know it, all movement was literally bugged, and was thus fixed and balanced. I don't know how you think just making everything faster wont break the balance of the game in some aspect, and you'll just get your nerf hammer back to "realism."

Offline Raskolnikov

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2014, 06:44:24 pm »
I don't have much comp GoI experience outside of watching streams, but I have played competitively in other games. I think the limiting factor is that there's only one "weight class" as far as ships go. Each ship having four people and each ship having to be balanced against each other makes it difficult to branch out across the spectrum of speed versus heavy. It's like putting heavy weight boxers against a bunch of welter weights and telling them to only use one hand.

I think it would definitely help to implement two-man ships and a game mode that would limit ship choices. This would be much more accessible as it's far easier to find one friend than it is three. It would also provide a more involved experience for both people instead of staring at a mallet, which is a hard selling point for newcomers. You could keep the games base mechanics, but with less focus on a sort of "attrition warfare" based gameplay.

That's obviously a lot of work, but what should immediately be added is ranked matchmaking with a deterrent on leaving. This would create a stronger incentive to win and involve yourself in the competitive scene and discussions more. If not a per person rank system, than at least a clan based one.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2014, 12:21:31 am »
gilder you know how much i agree with you but honestly no matter how much noise we are able to raise it wont matter because muse does not want the same type of game you and i want.  they dont want a dog-fighting game they want a "naval" battle in the air.   "get your guns in range and in arc and do your best to hover in that position" is the kind of game muse wants.   sure they will throw in some minimal maneuverability in there because it is in the air after all but as you and i know to attempt to RELY on maneuvering as part of your strategy really does not work very well. 

i would love for any of the MUSE folks to jump in here and tell me they really do want the feel of dog-fighting aerial combat to be part of the game because then maybe we could explain to them that at this moment it does not exist.  maybe then they would ask for feedback on how to make it better and we could tell them about the times when sliding to the back of a junker mattered or how much fun it used to be doing a strafing run on a galleon and getting out before he could turn his guns to bear on you.  but honestly i dont think the problem is a broken game but a game that is heading in a direction you and i (and unfortunately many others) dont like...

Offline redria

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2014, 08:42:34 am »
they dont want a dog-fighting game they want a "naval" battle in the air.
The concept of dog fighting is the same as shooters these days. Things die with a couple clicks and you move on. Your initial positioning and response decide the fight, then it is over and you move on to the next fight. Maybe I am missing something here, but when matches are played to 5 kills, that is clearly not the style Muse wants, and I'm not sure where you got that idea in the first place. But the idea that a naval battle is just a slow slug fest is absurd as well, especially with the additional cover we have in our matches. Captains in the old style naval battles with galleons etc had to be absurdly good at what they did. The entire crew had to work like a well oiled machine, and one slip up could give an opponent the chance to take victory.

Quote
"get your guns in range and in arc and do your best to hover in that position" [...] as you and i know to attempt to RELY on maneuvering as part of your strategy really does not work very well.
I... what? Are we playing the same game? 95% of my play style is about maneuvering. Get in fast, take out their balloon, and maneuver so you can respond to their ally if need be while working down your initial target. The few times I am not closing distance, I will be maneuvering around trying to find the best place to open fire on one ship, with cover from the other, along with several options for escape into cover. I take piloting to be a very active role. My engines are almost always doing something. I am never just hovering. Sounds boring.

Quote
strafing run on a galleon and getting out before he could turn his guns to bear on you.
I mean... you still can, but what's the point? The game is established in having engineers and having repairable armor covering the only actual permanent health on the ship. A strafing run will get you approximately nowhere as any damage you can do in one run will be quickly repaired.

I guess I'm just confused by what you are obsessing over Gilder. If the dev app reverts for a period I'll try it out, but I honestly just don't understand where the misconnection is here. I am playing a game featuring airships kept in the air by large unwieldy balloons, not by speed and aerodynamics. The game feels very balanced right now, and I feel like the changes you want, while they might be fun, would take the game from being thought-out, strategic battles where winning depends on teamwork between ships and in the crew, and turn the game into a pinball derby.

Offline Imagine

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2014, 11:02:19 am »
gilder you know how much i agree with you but honestly no matter how much noise we are able to raise it wont matter because muse does not want the same type of game you and i want.  they dont want a dog-fighting game they want a "naval" battle in the air.   "get your guns in range and in arc and do your best to hover in that position" is the kind of game muse wants.   sure they will throw in some minimal maneuverability in there because it is in the air after all but as you and i know to attempt to RELY on maneuvering as part of your strategy really does not work very well. 

i would love for any of the MUSE folks to jump in here and tell me they really do want the feel of dog-fighting aerial combat to be part of the game because then maybe we could explain to them that at this moment it does not exist.  maybe then they would ask for feedback on how to make it better and we could tell them about the times when sliding to the back of a junker mattered or how much fun it used to be doing a strafing run on a galleon and getting out before he could turn his guns to bear on you.  but honestly i dont think the problem is a broken game but a game that is heading in a direction you and i (and unfortunately many others) dont like...
The way the game plays in regular pug matches and the way they play in top level competitive matches are two very different things. Most pug matches are super brawly.

Offline redria

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2014, 11:06:03 am »
The way the game plays in regular pug matches and the way they play in top level competitive matches are two very different things. Most pug matches are super brawly.
Even competitive matches can be brawly. Half the fun of competitive is seeing who will bring what and if they will be able to force their range on their opponent. There are team(s) that love to brawl and will do anything they can to force the issue.

Offline Dementio

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2014, 11:19:11 am »
What exactly is this thread about?

How clans are not supported?
How much competitive and not competitive currently does/doesn't suck?
What needs to be changed on (certain) ships to make scenario X happening?
Why new players will never be old players?
What impossible thing NEEDS to be added to make scenario X happening?

I am seriously confused here...

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2014, 12:22:20 pm »
Good thing I play this game because I enjoy it's unique naval style combat and strategic coordinational demand. The world has enough generic twitch shooters and dogfighting games for me to choose from, where I'm sure I could have a great time being insta-gibed by caffeine fueled teenagers.

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2014, 01:09:40 pm »
What exactly is this thread about?

How clans are not supported?
How much competitive and not competitive currently does/doesn't suck?
What needs to be changed on (certain) ships to make scenario X happening?
Why new players will never be old players?
What impossible thing NEEDS to be added to make scenario X happening?

I am seriously confused here...

It's about how some players want the fast paced dog fighting action the game had back in the day.

Offline Imagine

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2014, 01:28:36 pm »
What exactly is this thread about?

How clans are not supported?
How much competitive and not competitive currently does/doesn't suck?
What needs to be changed on (certain) ships to make scenario X happening?
Why new players will never be old players?
What impossible thing NEEDS to be added to make scenario X happening?

I am seriously confused here...

It's about how some players want the fast paced dog fighting action the game had back in the day.
There's some serious Rose-colored glasses syndrome going on with that.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2014, 01:48:52 pm »
Ive played the game in the beta and i never experienced any fast dogfighting game style ...
Besides some small things the balance is at a great state atm.
Im quite happy that you cant just charge head on to an enemy atm and hope to win. Sure there are things that would need adjustment so some things are viable outside pub games atm. But i havnt seen any game that achieved that completly.

Offline Urz

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2014, 02:46:34 pm »
GOIO was never a "dog fighter", and never a "twitch shooter". The game was faster before the ship mass bug was fixed, but not War Thunder fast. "Realism" is also not really the word to use when arguing the relative speed of airborne warships. For the sake of not misconstruing the points people are attempting to get across, let's try to use more accurate terminology.

Whenever someone complains that the game is slower than it used to be, Zill always mentions that it was a bug, and that the ships were intended to be (about) as fast as they are now. That is irrelevant to this discussion. The question is not whether or not ship mass was bugged, but whether the game was more fun before it was fixed.

Right now we're in a place where long range conservative play is dominant. The ships sit, and they fire across the map. Sometimes the opposing team will survive into close range, but usually they will die with the sniping team not even having to move. This is as true in PUG matches as in tournament matches.

If you look at what ships people are flying successfully, we have the Junker, Galleon, and Pyramidion at the top. The Junker is certainly the best ship in the game in part due to it being the only competitive ship with reasonable close-range maneuverability. The squid and goldfish as the two other high maneuverability vessels are more or less unplayable in competition.

This leaves us with the following (simplified) strategies which are the most effective (by ship):

Junker - sit across the map and snipe. Sometimes turn to kill something at close range.
Pyramidion - get into effective range for your guns and then point at enemy until one of you is dead.
Galleon - sit across the map and snipe.
Mobula - sit across the map and snipe.
Spire - sit across the map and snipe.
Goldfish - do nothing and then die.
Squid - gank unexpecting Galleons (otherwise do nothing and then die).

There is nuance of course, but these are the prevailing dynamics of the game as it is. I would love to see the goldfish and squid be relevant again, and for Pyramidions to be able to go head-to-head with Junkers. Piloting as an engineer should be a sin. You should need those maneuverability tools.

So my opinion is that GOIO could do for some speeding up. Which changes would best accomplish that I'm not sure (speeding up some ships, all the ships, changing map geometry or gun mechanics, among other possibilities), and any significant change would of course require an on-going effort to keep balance.

I want this game to be more exciting.