Realism has had it's fun...

[Alistair MacBain]

I remember several SR where for example the Thralls used a dual gat + top mortar mobula to great effect on fjords when they manage to get close.
And they often paired it with a closerange pyra ...

Yes you need to think about your engagement and cant just charge head on in. Yes squid and goldfish need adjustment but i wont say that the issue of the goldfish for example is that it cant snipe ...
Its its 1 gun focus which is just outperformed in most situations by other ships.

[RearAdmiralZill]

I swear I log into a different game then you guys do sometimes.

[redria]

Urz, the problem with your simplified strategies is that the most effective strategy will always be to sit at range and snipe from your spawn. No matter what changes are made, the safest bet is to sit at range and take pot-shots. The range is more forgiving, meaning you are less likely to die from a small mistake. You have back-up if one of you dies. It is harder to be ambushed because you control the area.
As long as there are sniping weapons, there will be a lot of people that take sniping builds. Because it will always work. If it reaches a point where it doesn't work, then the devs will have broken the game. Both long range and short range builds should be viable for every map.

However we don't only see sniping matches. We see a lot of them, but not just sniping matches, and the snipers don't always win. If the snipers were consistently winning, your argument would hold water, but the sniping team doesn't always win. GwTh took a recent rumble with a close range mobula/pyra and close range spire/pyra combo.
As long as there is a serious competitive scene, there will be a lot of sniping simply because it is effective. Just like teams can let overtime end a match in a tie just to move on to a better map. It is an effective strategy.
It is just a really lame one.
Some teams commit to using close range builds regardless of their opponent, and do it effectively because they know how to.
The game is fairly balanced because on almost every map (I'm looking at you dunes) there are several options available for closing in on a sniping enemy. Brawling is just naturally a much higher risk. You put yourself that close to the enemy and only one of you is getting out a live. Small mistakes will kill you. It is more interesting, but some teams just won't want to take that risk.

This is such a unique game that balancing is absurdly difficult to manage. It is in a remarkably good spot right now. Ships don't need to be faster. Guns are pretty balanced. The competitive scene is seeing different builds (a spire in competitive that wasn't Museosaur? Whaaaaat?). On any given day you can't really tell if the sniping team or the brawling team will have the advantage.
Some ships and builds require very different tactics that aren't as apparent as turn ship, sit still, and fire. Goldfish is one of those. Someday soon I want to see OVW bring Shadowsword to competitive and see if we can change some minds.

Like Zill says, I'm not sure what game you guys are playing, but there is a lot going on here that seems to be ignored because of a few outliers.

(also, pyramidions can go head to head with junkers. It isn't that hard. I'm not sure where everyone keeps getting that idea.)

[Urz]

However we don't only see sniping matches. We see a lot of them, but not just sniping matches, and the snipers don't always win. If the snipers were consistently winning, your argument would hold water, but the sniping team doesn't always win.

Here are the matchups from the finals of the last month of weeklies I have run.

The Sunday Rumble #26 - 03/02/14
Finals: The Gents vs Crimson Sky Riders
Game 1 Fjords - sniper Galleon/Junker vs double sniper Mobula
Game 2 Canyon - sniper Galleon/Junker vs Metamidion/Hadesmidion
Game 3 Dunes - sniper Pyra/Junker vs double sniper Mobula

The Saturday Box Social #7 - 03/01/14
Finals: Crimson Sky Riders vs The Mandarins
Game 1 Duel - Metamidion/Hadesmidion vs double sniper Junker
Game 2 Canyon - Metamidion/Hadesmidion vs double sniper Junker

The Sunday Rumble #25 - 02/23/14
Finals: Glowwater Thralls vs Crimson Sky Riders
Game 1 Dunes - sniper Spire/Metamidion vs sniper Mobula/Hades Pyra
Game 2 Paritan - brawl Spire/Metamidion vs Metamidion/Hadesmidion
Game 3 Fjords - Metamidion/brawl Mobula vs Metamidion/Hadesmidion

The Saturday Box Social #6 - 02/22/14
Finals: The Gents vs Crimson Sky Riders
Game 1 Fjords - sniper Galleon/Junker vs Metamidion/Hadesmidion (TIE GAME)
Game 2 Dunes - sniper Galleon/Junker vs double sniper Mobula
Game 3 Canyon - sniper Galleon/Junker vs Metamidion/Hadesmidion

The Sunday Rumble #24 - 02/16/14
Finals: Glowwater Thralls vs The Gents
Game 1 Duel - double Metamidion vs sniper Galleon/Junker
Game 2 Paritan - double Metamidion vs sniper Galleon/Junker
Game 3 Fjords - Mercamidion/Metamidion vs sniper Galleon/Junker

The Saturday Box Social #5 - 02/15/14
Finals: Sacrilege vs The Mandarins
Game 1 Dunes - sniper Galleon/Junker vs double sniper Junker
Game 2 Fjords - sniper Galleon/Hadesmidion vs double sniper Junker

The Sunday Rumble #23 - 02/09/14
Finals: Glowwater Thralls vs SIRI
Game 1 Fjords - brawl Mobula/Metamidion vs sniper Junker/Mobula
Game 2 Paritan - brawl Spire/Metamidion vs sniper Junker/brawl Galleon

The Saturday Box Social #4 - 02/08/14
Finals: The Mandarins vs Sacrilege
Game 1 Canyon - double sniper Junker vs sniper Junker/Metamidion
Game 2 Duel - double sniper Junker vs double Metamidion

The Sunday Rumble #22 - 02/02/14
Finals: The Gents vs Glowwater Thralls
Game 1 Canyon - sniper Junker/Mobula vs sniper Spire/Galleon
Game 2 Dunes - sniper Galleon/Junker vs sniper Spire/Galleon

The Saturday Box Social #3 - 02/01/14
Finals: The Mandarins vs The Gents
Game 1 Dunes - double sniper Junker vs sniper Galleon/Junker
Game 2 Duel - double sniper Junker vs sniper Galleon/Junker



That is 11 sniper vs sniper games, 2 brawl vs brawl games, 6 wins for sniper over brawl, and 4 wins for brawl over sniper (32 snipers and 14 brawlers, 70% of teams in the finals run snipers). The two most competitively successful teams in the game (Gents and Ducks) exclusively run sniper builds (Skrimskraw has also told me that he would run sniper builds if he wanted maximum win rate). If you want to go back to the last major tournament, Anvalan Conflict, the two teams in the finals were The Paddling (sniper Galleon + Pyra/Junker) and The Gents (sniper Galleon + sniper Junker). Both teams 3-0'd brawling opponents in the semifinals.

[Imagine]

So, two things (and keep in mind here that yes, as a caster I would love for more brawls because it tends to be a lot more exciting to commentate, and no, the nuances of sniping aren't lost to me, just saying this from a what's more entertaining to watch perspective).

1) Can we really say that if long range didn't exist, those two particular teams still wouldn't be the top two teams?

2) Once again, the amount of percentage these matches make up is probably what... 5% of the matches played? Leaving competition aside, is any of this that big of an issue for what almost everyone else plays the game like?

[Urz]

2) Once again, the amount of percentage these matches make up is probably what... 5% of the matches played? Leaving competition aside, is any of this that big of an issue for what almost everyone else plays the game like?

The competitive matches matter because those are the matches which carry enough significance for teams to be willing to play long patient games. You don't see very many 30 minutes 2v2 PUG games because people just don't care as much.

[Dutch Vanya]

What game are people playing that involves sitting still and sniping? When i do end up in sniping matches it involves moving around to every bit of the map that normally gets ignored and trying to use the terrain effectively. I have a feeling it is you guys and your competetive matches that are making it boring for yourselves. In those matches urz listed it seems to be the gents and ducks perpetuating the sniping meta's. I'm bad at turning all my thoughts into coherent posts, but i agree with everything redria has said in this thread. There's a lot more i could say on these matters too. And don't tell me people don't CARE in "pug" matches. Some people are just playing a game here.

[GeoRmr]

Just because sniping is a more popular choice does not mean that brawling is not viable. Don't forget about capture point games, there is a competitive scene for them emerging and snipers are NOT popular choices in them. The current leading team has not lost a single cp match thus far in the tournament  using 2 brawling ships and one mid range ship.

[Sammy B. T.]

Also calling the Mandarins double sniper junker is a bit disingenuous.  Our long range engage is physically limited at around 1300 meters and we generally try and fight around 900 when we are using our "long range" side (we call it mid range).  In addition the mere fact we have a mid range side doesn't mean it is all we use.  Our right sides aren't contingencies in case the enemy gets close especially since we quite often are the ones that charge.

Furthermore we rarely simply sit even when using our left side. We could not play our build without frogger and myself as pilots as we maneuver far to much. 

I can sympathize with changes made to remove the power of camping.  However the mandarins are really not a good example of conservative play.  Hell even the gents have been playing more aggressively as of late.  The presence of longer range guns does not necessarily mean camp fests

[Urz]

I can sympathize with changes made to remove the power of camping.  However the mandarins are really not a good example of conservative play.  Hell even the gents have been playing more aggressively as of late.  The presence of longer range guns does not necessarily mean camp fests

While I realize that you prefer dynamic engagements which involve close range weapons, that certainly did not happen in your last set vs the Gents. Your right side only came into play when 1) the Gents ill-fatedly attempted to spawn behind you, and 2) in the third game they had to charge facing a time limit loss, which also ended poorly for them.

VOD:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcnWn_8_RL4

[redria]

I can sympathize with changes made to remove the power of camping.  However the mandarins are really not a good example of conservative play.  Hell even the gents have been playing more aggressively as of late.  The presence of longer range guns does not necessarily mean camp fests

While I realize that you prefer dynamic engagements which involve close range weapons, that certainly did not happen in your last set vs the Gents. Your right side only came into play when 1) the Gents ill-fatedly attempted to spawn behind you, and 2) in the third game they had to charge facing a time limit loss, which also ended poorly for them.

VOD:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcnWn_8_RL4

Key words there: The Gents. Not trying to be down on the gents, but they are notorious for finding their sniping spot and not moving.
Factor A: The gents employ a not-very-popular strategy. Almost no-one takes their path. We won't go into that, but suffice to say that they make for a unique opponent.
Factor B: The best situation for brawling teams is if their opponent tries to advance a little as well. This shortens the time of closure, and helps a brawling team find effective range faster while taking less damage on the approach. This means that against a team like the gents, the brawlers are immediately put in a less favorable position. Not screwed, but less favorable than against almost any other team that will move forwards at least a little bit.
Factor C: The ducks take winning seriously. They are probably the most organized and practiced team in every factor of their game. They will take risks, but the ducks are going to take the optimum route to victory 9 times out of 10.

Put these factors together, and there is no way the ducks are going to charge a sniping line in an unfavorable situation when their ships are already set up for a much better engage.

There won't be much variation in how these 2 teams engage one another. With the gents so stuck in their ways and the ducks playing the calculated strategy game, nothing will change. Recently the ducks have had a slight upper hand, and you can see the gents being a little more mobile as they look for the happy medium between their classic play and the more dynamic fighting everyone wants.

The most recent sunday rumble from a few days ago shows good evidence of this from the gents-CsR canyon ambush fight. Yes, the galleon was set up with a sniping build. But the gents flew it inside the canyons. The junker was using its short range side as often as not. We saw much more interesting gameplay, and an amazingly tense finish, simply due to the gents not camping at the back of their spawn. The map helped significantly because if both teams leave their spawns, the map is set up to favor dynamic play.
This was followed up by dunes. The gents looked to be playing their classic sniping. CsR took mobulas to disable/range out the gents. The gents switched to even longer range to range out the fire from CsR. This was a case of the worst map in the game taking 2 teams just out of a thrilling match and shoving them into something that, in all honesty, I couldn't be bothered to watch at the time.

There is a notion in the game that when the other team brings a sniping build, the only counter is more sniping. Some teams challenge that. It doesn't always go well, but it is not a fore-gone conclusion that the snipers have won. Realistically it makes some of the best matches, as you have completely different weapons being used on different sides. It isn't a case of who can empty their clip faster (2x metamidion vs 2x metamidion...). It is a case of who can utilize the weapons they took and force their range on their opponent.

The biggest problem is that if the brawlers fail, they respawn back at their own spawn and now have to charge again.
It is hard to be excited for a fight if you know that your enemy is just going to wait around for you to make the first move.
The spawn points on duel at dawn, while broken, make this aspect more interesting.

TLDR: Ships and builds aren't the problem, maps are. Make dunes more dynamic, and do something to make spawning work better. I have no ideas on the spawning situation, but it hurts.

[Alistair MacBain]

Redria points it out.
The current issue isnt the guns. The issue is that most maps just punish you for a charge.
The current LoS spawn system on every map except duel forces you to either charge and be in a bad spot cause your enemy can spawn much closer to the fight than you. Or wait for the enemy to move in a less favorable position.

Dunes with its pretty much 0 hard cover is just the extreme of this. There are 2 ways to charge a sniping team on dunes. Both of them are pretty well known and so obvious at a certain point that most teams even the more brawly ones tend to stick to sniping on that map.
Canyon has a different issue.
1. Spawns are so hard covered that you can never assist your ally in a fight when you died. You need to move through the whole canyon because of all that hard cover.
2. All the clouds in the actual canyon can lead to 2 brawl teams moving around each other cause they cant se anything in the canyon.

Alot of teams just dont utilize the map very well. That is something that is kinda glued to the toplvl games.
Thralls showed how good it can be with their mobula pyra charge gainst us (the gents).
Mandarins showed it aswell. ITs something that newer teams have to learn when they start in the competetive teams.

I mean no offense gaisnt anyone but i remember a gents vs wolf game (could be anvalan) where the wolfs just charged our sniper build head on with just some clouds as cover.
This is a kinda optimal situation for a sniper. Barely any cover and the brawl team charges you head first on a pretty long way. Open fire.

Not sure about you guys but i am kinda happy that the game doesnt forgive such a mistake.

The mandarins showed that you can charge a sniper team even on dunes. When more people start to really utilize the map gainst a sniper the sniper builds will have a much harder time.

Sniping isnt the most effective strategy. We spend alot of time to improve our style of play and thats why we do so good.
We have proven that it takes alot of efford to optimize this by beating alot of teams trying to outsnipe us.
The Crimson Sky Ryders found a counter build for our style of play for certain maps. Sure we wont use that again if we realized that it just cant work out ...
A well practiced brawl team can surely beat a sniper team. It just takes alot of effort to utilize what is given by builds, maps and loadouts.

[Thomas]

I think this was about ship speeds? And how faster ships would be better. I think.

In my opinion, ships can be pretty maneuverable and zippy. It really depends on how you choose to fly. Personally I move my ship around a lot, and I love fighting sniping teams because my playstyle generally works really well against that. Someone brought up how certain maps aren't ideal for brawly ships, and that's absolutely true, but you can still make them work; although you have to try a lot harder with a lot more risk involved.

One reason that most competitive teams turn to sniping is because of the high skill level involved, and the lower risk. Highly competitive teams have very skilled crew. You try using some of those sniping builds with a pub crew, and it usually doesn't go so well (especially with a hades). It takes a crazy amount of accuracy to hit ships consistently at that distance. Another reason they tend to go sniper builds is to focus more on attack, and less on defense. Ships used tend to be those with at least a trifecta (galleon, junker, spire, mobula, and sometimes pyra). They want to burst down their enemy, and sacrifice having someone constantly watching the hull/other components. This is another reason for a long range build, as you should be taking less hits at a greater range, allowing your team to focus on shooting and less on repair. You can obviously go with a close range build with a trifecta, and while that tends to be ridiculously effective, you're often putting yourself at a huge risk.

Competitive teams just tend to play it safe, because they know that if they make one little error in judgement, it will end with their ship in pieces. By keeping it at long range, they give themselves a little more leeway in decision making.

And of course that's not always the case. I've seen a sniping match turn abruptly into a brawl match when one of the teams realized they had another match coming up shortly and decided they didn't have time to play it safe. They rushed the other team who was also long range heavy and ended up defeating them at 5-3 or 5-4. It was a very risky way to play, and the score reflected that. Had they continued the long range fight, it might have ended 5-0 or 5-1.


------
Long story short(er) is that my opinion is that it's the teams that choose to play that way, and the spawns, maps, and ships have only a minor effect on that.

[redria]

One reason that most competitive teams turn to sniping is because of the high skill level involved, and the lower risk.

A good summary of a lot of what I tried to say.

Long story short(er) is that my opinion is that it's the teams that choose to play that way, and the spawns, maps, and ships have only a minor effect on that.

I tend to agree. I think the ships have the least effect. I think the ships are pretty close to being balanced (which was the point of this thread).
The more I think about it, the more I believe that spawning is a problem that is affecting build and play style choice to a greater amount, though I really have no good solution.
Most maps I am pretty okay with, though Dunes I have a real problem with. You can charge a sniping team and get within brawl range. And there should be maps where sniping is favored over brawling. But the difficulty of getting within effective range of a sniping team when you have a brawling build is absurd on dunes, and sometimes downright impossible. There are places where a sniping team would be nigh on unapproachable on dunes. But that is a discussion for a different thread really. You could probably say that the current paritan rumble is the brawling counter to dunes.

The bottom line here is that Muse is trying to walk the line between fun and balance, while trying to maintain their vision for the game. While I would support the dev app running an old update for a week just to see what this old timey arcade style flying was like, I also don't think it is a direction we should be going. Muse is developing this game and pushing forwards: looking ahead and adding to the game and maintaining what we already have. This entire discussion is originating from a mindset of looking backwards and trying to go back to something we left behind.
Keep in mind. It has been a year. Muse made the change for a reason and has not gone back for a full year. Maybe it was incredible. Maybe there were serious flaws. Whatever the case may be, the developers for the game felt this change to be so important that they have not looked back for 12 months.
That is 12 months of pub matches, competitive events, dev games, and 1 or 2 people making a fuss about their old ship.
As someone who admittedly did not play during that time before, and who quite enjoys the current balance and game style, I am inclined to trust that Muse payed attention to what effects their update had and decided that it was best for the game. And I am inclined to say that they are probably right.

All other arguments aside, every ship has the opportunity to beat every other ship 1 on 1. Maybe not easily. But all things being equal, no 1v1 scenario is a given, or even very easily predictable. And that tells me that the game is in a good place.

[Frogger]

While I realize that you prefer dynamic engagements which involve close range weapons, that certainly did not happen in your last set vs the Gents. Your right side only came into play when 1) the Gents ill-fatedly attempted to spawn behind you, and 2) in the third game they had to charge facing a time limit loss, which also ended poorly for them.

VOD:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcnWn_8_RL4

It's a definite mischaracterization to say that we are purely a sniping team. If you look at our videos, well over two-thirds of them are brawls, and almost all of them involve us moving out of our spawn to engage the enemy in or around theirs.

The entire point of the Mandarins is to have both options available - to be able to brawl and snipe with equal fluency. If I were assigning labels, I would call our format "double hybrid junker".