Author Topic: Realism has had it's fun...  (Read 99336 times)

Offline Queso

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #90 on: March 30, 2014, 10:45:03 pm »
Keep it civil people. Everyone has their own ideas about the game, and none of them are wrong.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #91 on: April 01, 2014, 12:13:58 pm »
Y'all think this is an airplane game when really it is closer to a navy game.

wait wait wait,  havent i literally said this many times?  havent i also stated that i believe that is the type of game muse wants to make?  arent all im doing is suggesting that it could be MORE fun?

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #92 on: April 01, 2014, 12:15:25 pm »
gilder you know how much i agree with you but honestly no matter how much noise we are able to raise it wont matter because muse does not want the same type of game you and i want.  they dont want a dog-fighting game they want a "naval" battle in the air.   "get your guns in range and in arc and do your best to hover in that position" is the kind of game muse wants.   sure they will throw in some minimal maneuverability in there because it is in the air after all but as you and i know to attempt to RELY on maneuvering as part of your strategy really does not work very well. 

i would love for any of the MUSE folks to jump in here and tell me they really do want the feel of dog-fighting aerial combat to be part of the game because then maybe we could explain to them that at this moment it does not exist.  maybe then they would ask for feedback on how to make it better and we could tell them about the times when sliding to the back of a junker mattered or how much fun it used to be doing a strafing run on a galleon and getting out before he could turn his guns to bear on you.  but honestly i dont think the problem is a broken game but a game that is heading in a direction you and i (and unfortunately many others) dont like...

Offline snor-laxatives

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #93 on: April 01, 2014, 01:09:47 pm »
My only fear with changing speeds or maneuverability of the ships is that we'll get exactly what everyone is saying... games that are FASTER and more fun.  Yes good pilots will be rewarded, which is good, and I do like feeling like an air ninja, but once a handful of people learn how to do that games will be much quicker.  A lot of us are talking about how now its more of a "whoever gets the first hit/ surprise in wins", which in many causes is true.  But if we scaled up some of the ships speed and maneuverability I dont know if it would fix the problem as much as turn matches (from my PUG opinion) from nice 10-15 minute games to 5 minute charge straight in and get kills, and when you cant just slip out.

Is the game perfect, no, is it fun yes!  (then again i havent been in a tourney in awhile).

Maybe if we just increase some of the yield of the tools?  Make kero and moonshine pack a lot more kick.  Make claw give a little more spin.  However.... that could just make the pyra and junker into gods, lol.

Not an expert, not as much play time as many on this thread.  Just wanted to toss my two cents.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #94 on: April 01, 2014, 01:48:57 pm »
More fun for you does not imply more fun for all.
While i dont say the game is perfectly balanced atm and there things that need a change for sure i dont think its bad how the game behaves atm.
You cant just blindly rush into a situation and easily evade when things get messy.
Also by adding speed you may make the game more fun for pilots but not for everyone else.
Where is the difference from one engineer to another when your captain is able to get you out of fight/ out of arcs that easy? Wouldnt make much of a difference. Instead now you need a perfect timing and a really good coordination to tank through the damage.

Offline Tanya Phenole

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #95 on: April 03, 2014, 01:17:01 am »
And the airships danced around each other, slowly and depressively....


Then the captains that they should play less passively.

Y'all act like just because you can't have a space fighter blimp that you have to just barely move at all and limp everywhere. Get over yourself.

"Slowly and depressively " was actually a compliment. Personally, I love strategic matches more than blitz-attacks with metamidions.

Offline Velvet

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #96 on: April 03, 2014, 07:10:33 pm »
brawling would be no fun if it was easy. I don't know the best way to phrase it, particularly considering that I'm hardly the most experienced pilot, but, well.. just the fact that your brawling build doesn't work for your team does not mean that brawling is no longer a viable strategy. Yes, the balance has made certain tactics and builds less effective but in my opinion "turret fighting", while perhaps more common than it should be, is nothing like the best tactic and brawling remains pretty viable. In fact in my experience the most mobile and versatile teams who show the most willingness to adapt, to develop new plans midway through matches and surprise their enemies tend to come out on top.

I think that the frequency of sniping is not due to its superiority as a strategy but because many players consider close or midrange engagements too risky, especially in important competitive matches. And that risk is due to the unpredictability inherent in brawls being decided too quickly. While I think this risk is a good thing and should remain, I don't think faster ships would make brawling better, since the risk would remain, and possibly increase, and many teams will still prefer to take the safer option of a slow engagement at long range, presuming you managed not to obsolete sniping completely.

Of course, faster ships might just slow down engagements because it's even easier to dodge the finish. I personally don't think it's good for the pilot to have that much evasion capability. They are only one member of a 4 man crew yet already have a hugely disproportionate share of the power and responsibility to control their ship's fate - if gunning is becoming increasingly important then I'm not going to complain.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #97 on: April 03, 2014, 07:33:39 pm »
this is not a brawler vs sniper thread.  e.g.  I think an increase in speed could make sniping more fun also.  get with the program;  more agile flying is more fun flying in our opinion.  this opinion is of course supported with our correlating the lack of player retention with the lack of fun/speed

Offline Erheller

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #98 on: April 03, 2014, 08:09:07 pm »
this is not a brawler vs sniper thread.  e.g.  I think an increase in speed could make sniping more fun also.  get with the program;  more agile flying is more fun flying in our opinion.  this opinion is of course supported with our correlating the lack of player retention with the lack of fun/speed

I'd just like to pop in and say that correlation does not imply causation.

Early in the game's life when the ships were more responsive, much of the playerbase had spent quite a bit of money on Guns of Icarus (Kickstarter, buying full price, buying for 10 dollars). It was around the April 30th patch when GoI started going for about 5 dollars. Of course, if you pay more money for a game, you're going want to keep playing it to get your money's worth. If you pay less money, you're more likely to just throw it away after playing a couple of hours. Concluding that player retention went down because of lower ship movement is just....silly.

tl;dr: Ship speed and player retention are not necessarily correlated. Personally, I don't think they're correlated at all.

I'm not as experienced as other people in this thread. But faster ships doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is going to be happy. Some captains might like the speed boost, but what about everyone else on the ship? What about the hades gunner that can't hit enemy ships at all because they keep juking the shots? What about mid-range combat? Ships will be able to close distance faster, giving mid-range guns a smaller window of effectiveness. Pilots aren't the only people playing this game. Engineers and gunners exist, and increasing ship speed won't necessarily make the game more fun for them.

The game is in a good spot right now in terms of balance and funness. Increasing ship speed can ruin it.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #99 on: April 03, 2014, 08:33:27 pm »
I'm not sure there's any evidence supporting a decline in player retention after mass started to be applied to ships other than a few very outspoken critics leaving the game.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #100 on: April 04, 2014, 10:25:07 am »
yeah I know there is no way to actually prove causation (short of a statistically accurate survey) I and gilder are suggesting the possibility.  but let's remember there is also no way to disprove it either.

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #101 on: April 04, 2014, 10:52:37 am »
1.3.2
- Pyramidion: Mass 200t (from 260t), Hull Health 700 (from 800)
- Mortar: Spread 1.5 degrees (from 0), Range 550m (from 1875m), Pitch and Yaw speed 65 degree/s (from 60 and 50 degree/s, respectively), 35 Explosive Direct / 60 Explosive AoE (from 20/60)

1.3.3
- Mortar: Jitter increased to 3 degrees (from 1.5 degrees), Yaw Speed decreased to 30 degrees/s (from 65 degrees/s), Max range reduced to 400m (from 600m), Clip size reduced to 12 (from 16)
- Gatling Gun: Jitter decreased to 3 degrees (from 3.5), Muzzle speed increased to 500m/s (from 200m/s), Range decreased to 450m (from 700m), Clip size increased to 80 (from 60), Direct damage reduced to 7.5 Piercing (from 10 Piercing)

After these two patches I noticed a drop in the player base. Mostly from competitive teams that only used pyramidions.

Offline Imagine

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #102 on: April 04, 2014, 11:19:09 am »
After these two patches I noticed a drop in the player base. Mostly from competitive teams that only used pyramidions.
Which also happened to coincide with various big name youtubers making videos and various steam sales/humble bundle deals. Throughout the length of the game whenever something like that has happened there's been a large surge of players of which most end up moving to the next big sensation.

Don't cherry pick your information.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #103 on: April 04, 2014, 01:10:33 pm »
1.3.2
- Pyramidion: Mass 200t (from 260t), Hull Health 700 (from 800)
- Mortar: Spread 1.5 degrees (from 0), Range 550m (from 1875m), Pitch and Yaw speed 65 degree/s (from 60 and 50 degree/s, respectively), 35 Explosive Direct / 60 Explosive AoE (from 20/60)

1.3.3
- Mortar: Jitter increased to 3 degrees (from 1.5 degrees), Yaw Speed decreased to 30 degrees/s (from 65 degrees/s), Max range reduced to 400m (from 600m), Clip size reduced to 12 (from 16)
- Gatling Gun: Jitter decreased to 3 degrees (from 3.5), Muzzle speed increased to 500m/s (from 200m/s), Range decreased to 450m (from 700m), Clip size increased to 80 (from 60), Direct damage reduced to 7.5 Piercing (from 10 Piercing)

After these two patches I noticed a drop in the player base. Mostly from competitive teams that only used pyramidions.

yup and if you remember i compared that change to something

im not trying to fight the nautical combat idea, im accepting it.  all i was saying was IF the intention was to have close combat dog fighting like engagements, the short range weapons are not rewarding enough.  [long range] isnt my cup of tea but i think muse agrees with you

so yeah if you are using yet another example of muse moving away from faster "dog fighting type" combat as a reason people left i would say that you are and i are in agreement.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: Realism has had it's fun...
« Reply #104 on: April 04, 2014, 01:19:36 pm »
Don't cherry pick your information.

im confused how this disproves this conversation;  gilder and others are suggesting that a fast game would attract more players.  The fact that new players have come because of sales and youtubers does not answer the question of why they left.  Many games experience new comers for the same reasons and are able to retain those players, why not GOIO?  i cant answer that question definitively but neither can you.  you say "maybe such-and-such reason" and i say different.  we are both essentially picking information and extrapolating conclusions that cant be proven or disproved.