Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Crafeksterty on December 09, 2013, 11:13:18 am
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AWKM:
This post was merged and I messed it up.
This is my initial message:
We know it's not perfect and are planning to make improvement on it over time. There is some functionality that got missed between the lead time from engineering to design testing which we'll be adding in soon.
Most likely, the system will stay and move towards each map having a concept of "bases." The concept is best demonstrated in the current Fjords and Canyons. Teams will initially spawn in their 'base' and only have access to their side of the map's related spawn points. Due to a lack of functionality, larger maps like Dunes has you initially spawn in a tight pack with your team but also allow you to spawn on the other side of the map. This will likely change later.
Either way, we are open to your comments.
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Craftersky original:
Ok so in the Dev app i thought it was obvious how the spawning just spawned ships inside the battle. But oh look, they still can!
There are Pros and there are Cons to spawning close to battle but in all seriousness, this is incredibly cheap.
No ship has breathing time after a kill, as soon as you kill someone you have 15 seconds to be on your top and you are allready fighting someone again. This then escelates to a meatgrind from both sides.
Red dies, blu dies, red dies blu dies. Red dies blu dies, red dies, blu dies RED dies.
Please tell me im not the only one who dislikes the current spawning mechanic. Spawning far away was a downer, but getting a lucky spawn too close was the problem, now look. "lucky" spawns all over the place. Not even snipers will get a breather.
Ive also noticed some spawns on the very middle, one time i spawned directly behind a pyra... as a spire... after he killed me... Wanna know what happened? He got mushed.
How about this, i just killed an annoying squid, and when i turn around. Oh there he is again, fully and more capable than me.
I AM way too early on this but like i said, i saw this on the dev app and it still is allowed.
However, i do see pubs having more fun (to a degree). The games are much quicker and gets right into it, but what other options exist now for deathmatch? I dont know how we can balance the spawning out to be atleast a bit predictable. Only allow them to spawn at their sides of the map? They get random selections of spawns? Right now you just turn around and see the same ship you just killed, fighting in only one area of the map.
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As I said in the dev app discussion for this feature, the enemy team getting a lucky spawn is far worse than your team getting an unlucky spawn.
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We know it's not perfect and are planning to make improvement on it over time. There is some functionality that got missed between the lead time from engineering to design testing which we'll be adding in soon.
Most likely, the system will stay and move towards each map having a concept of "bases." The concept is best demonstrated in the current Fjords and Canyons. Teams will initially spawn in their 'base' and only have access to their side of the map's related spawn points. Due to a lack of functionality, larger maps like Dunes has you initially spawn in a tight pack with your team but also allow you to spawn on the other side of the map. This will likely change later.
Either way, we are open to your comments.
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THIS.IS.HUGE. There will be so many split second strategies developing from this especially from the losing side. It will be a lot harder to defend an area but it can also make establishing dominant surprise sniping easier if we die. Suffice to say combat will be faster, more decisive, and riskier.
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Well, it's interesting. It certainly leads to much rougher engagements. You have contact, take out a ship, start focusing down the other and within 20 seconds that first ship is right on your butt again. Did some labyrinth with this as well, and that was pretty intense. There's almost no break in the fighting, and it's almost impossible to flip the point once one side captures it, since they return to it so fast to block.
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It is quite terrible both in implementation and concept.
1. There are seemingly no restrictions on proximity to other ships. This meant a brawl spire was able to spawn directly on top of my sniping ship. Brawling didn't just get a buff, sniping is now ridiculously under powered as you basically have to figure out an area without a spawn near it and as soon as you spawn, you have to run to it.
2. Even with proximity restrictions it is still a great buff to brawlers as it allows them to decide where to attack from.
3. If you implement a base type strategy, it massively buffs campers. If you're stronger on the right, you stay on the right, and vice versa. That would slow down the game massively.
I'm really upset that the conversation in the dev app was simply, how to implement choosing spawns instead of should we implement choosing spawns.
What is gained by choosing spawns? Every enemy spawn is now the worst case scenario spawn for you. I'll take a chance of an unlucky spawn over guaranteed superior enemy spawn.
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I have to agree with Sammy for the reasons he stated. Instead of implementing a spawn choice system, it would simply be better to improve the random spawn system.
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3. If you implement a base type strategy, it massively buffs campers. If you're stronger on the right, you stay on the right, and vice versa. That would slow down the game massively.
Didn't campers always have that advantage in the original system?
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There was still a chance they would be spawned on opposite ends of their side. Now they could always be right back to each other. It takes the previous advantage to whole new levels. Red Spawn in Canyon would be even more ridiculous.
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*Disclaimer: haven't played yet.*
Campers are going to camp. No system would really fix that unless it was a total random spawn that could end up on any point of the map, which would never fly anyway. I'd like to think the idea of bases would create for fairly large areas around initial spawns (larger than we had before) with some logic in there making it so if blue gets into red's spawn and gets a kill, the red ship can't spawn nearby (aka in gun range).
Only other thing I could think of is if you are killed in your spawn base/area, then your spawn counter is x times longer. Then you make a choice and promotes leaving the initial spawn area, which in that case wouldn't be so huge.
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I agree with what is being said by Sammy for sure. However, if the spawn choice is going to be implemented for sure, I think it definitely ought to have a way so that you can't spawn directly on enemy ships and have to instead take a spawn x distance away from an enemy. This can still give brawlers a balanced chance to get in close and make it tougher to snipe, but not make it downright impossible.
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If spawns disable themselves based on proximity, then this tells you where enemies are.
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I'd rather them know where I am then be right on top of me when they spawn.
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But is that really a problem?
If you have to spawn you already died to him ...
So where does that influences the game? You already lost once to him when you have to respawn.
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I had a situation in game when after my team managed to defeat both opponents in 2v2 at once
they spawned right on us. That means we had about 15 seconds to make our ships fully operational
before two fresh ships "blinked" on us from thin air. I think this is very bad as it punishes players
for doing good in the game and makes all kills besides last one much less relevant. At same time
it cancels out, or at least makes less important, need of retreat as you can tank and wait for other ship
to spawn near you as resp times are rather short.
So to sum up, I think this shift balance away from skill and more towards luck.
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Generally speaking, both ships (in a 2v2) do not go down at the same time. In most cases the enemy ships have been spotted, and as long as your ally is still spotting them, they actually appear on your map when you choose to spawn. Not to mention that they usually don't move too far after they kill you, especially if you're ally is nearby (which they should be, unless they just died.)
Some people say that it ruins a sniping build and promotes a brawl build, but that's not really true. If you have a long range build, just choose to spawn far away from your enemy. They can certainly spawn on your face and kill you, but then you just spawn far away and take them out again. It doesn't necessarily promote one or the other, but it does make it difficult for ships to survive any decent length of time.
Really the more I play with it, the more I dislike being able to choose my spawn. I've become accustomed to spawning further away and using that time to communicate with my crew what went right and wrong with the last death we had, letting them know the plan as we approach for engagement. However, it's far too beneficial to spawn right on them as soon as possible. It's a lot of back and forth constant fighting and not as much being able to maneuver and use the terrain to your advantage, which is something I miss.
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Once initial spawn goes in, which could be a hotfix in the weeks, then only being able to spawn towards your side of the map or base will be available.
Again, the square maps suffer the most since the options were to have it the way it is now or randomly spawn you on your side of the map from a wide variety of spawn points that may spawn you much further away from your team that you want.
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I still have to ask what is gained from spawn choosing other than a far less tactical tit for tat brawl?
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Spawns could decided a whole match.
Either a lucky or a unlucky spawn after an engagement could decide the game for you or the opponent.
Such a luck factor doestn suit competetive gaming.
At least imo.
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The former system was entirely random. You had no choice and therefore no tactical input. The only thing you did was submit to the spawn that was given to you (no matter how crappy) and react tactically.
By choosing, we hope, you can at least respond to the scenario that got you killed and try to fix it. Do you want to spawn in the heat of combat to save your teammate? Or do you need to spawn further away because you're a sniper? Is my base being camped, do I need to spawn further away?
We never had any of those choices available.
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By choosing, we hope, you can at least respond to the scenario that got you killed and try to fix it. Do you want to spawn in the heat of combat to save your teammate? Or do you need to spawn further away because you're a sniper?
Problem is spawning farther away will just likely get your teammate killed, and then you again, so you pick the closer one. In competition I could see this being more of a decision (maybe), but in pubs, nah.
Choice is cool, and an improvement, but shouldn't be so close that killing someone becomes a disadvantage, as silly as that sounds.
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There is functionally no tactical reason to not choose a brawler and immediately charge the guy you damaged int he fight. While it might be tactical to choose your spawn, everything being this immediate brawl means no real coordination with your teammate as you are constantly in the fight. So many strategies are now out the window because taking a minute to meet up with your team mate is somehow not tactical.
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By dividing the spawns into 'bases', insta-brawling will be taken care of.
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While that is marginally better (though just reinforces camping for some maps like canyon), why implement this amazingly half baked spawn system?
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I think the old issue (and I use that term loosely) was that the old random spawns put a lot of 'luck' into matches. After dying, you didn't get to choose where you spawned, and you'd have to make do. Sometimes you ended up in a beneficial location and sometimes you didn't. This could change the course of the whole match, especially if teams are relatively equally skilled. You might have started out with the upper hand, but went down and had a terrible spawn. You get back into the fight and manage to tie it up again, but the enemy gets a lucky spawn and wipes you shortly after.
The new system seems to be an attempt at taking more of the luck out, and putting more tactics into it. Now you don't have to rely on luck, as you get to pick where you show up. However, this has lead to an overwhelming amount of 'lucky' spawns, since they can always appear in advantageous position (right behind you). Since most ships are brawly builds, a lot of the complaints are of ships appearing right on top of them. The proposed solution is to force 'bases' or spawn zones for teams, leading to less spawning on top of each other. And while this may prevent that, I'm not sure if it will prevent sniping builds from popping up in prime locations. Since they don't want to be close to the enemy in the first place. They'd just have to pick a spot where they have a line of sight and some room to run.
Overall I'm more ok with dealing with the random spawns than trying to balance how ships should be able to choose their spawns. The current system is 'fair', but not too enjoyable; where the next iteration might tip the balance towards sniping builds.
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Before there was a chance your team would get an unlucky spawn. Now it is guaranteed the enemy will get a lucky spawn
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After playing around with these spawn points I have decided this is atrocious. Games start without any engagement as usual, but once the first attack happens and the first death, it is a constant fight until we hit 5 points. Matches don't last more than a couple minutes in DM and it's a big cluster the entire time.
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What about in Canyons and Fjords?
What if all DM maps moved towards that model?
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What about making it optional on match creation, like the crew shuffle? Then you could have several options. Random spawns (like previous), Base spawns (random or chose your own), or full map free choice spawns (like now).
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I think a simple for or against spawn choosing poll may be in order.
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Well I watched a few fjords and canyon matches. Fjord actually seemed to fall into the 'spawning on top of each other category' where canyon played out like it always has (teams rush to the south of the canyon and keep engaging in that area). When red died, they'd have to respawn at the halfway point-ish, but blue was able to spawn on their tail. This was the case when the random spawns were in as well.
At fjords, ships respawned a little further, but the fighting seemed to flock towards the spawns, since they were still moderately close. This ended up with ships spawning at the same location one after another, which was a little comical to observe.
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This new system has the unfortunate side-effect of encouraging suicide runs, especially during CP matches. A Squid that rushes in and gets killed no longer has any penalty for doing so as they can spawn straight back in just yards from the point. In the old system they would be forced to make their way back into the centre, costing them valuable time. This system negates that necessity.
In addition, the idea that two enemy ships that you just destroyed can now warp-drive themselves immediately onto your six to catch you unawares is unthinkable. In a real combat situation, you would at least have the time and the foresight to see those ships as they made their approach. This is not the case if it is possible to spawn in immediately where you were and continue the fight.
While throwing a little curve-ball into the action and pacing of the game is a good idea - this is just too eclectic. A good ship doesn't have time between killing a powerful enemy and having it mortaring their hull to pieces. They don't have the time or the space to repair before the next onslaught. This is completely unfair on that ship. It penalties them for being successful in the dogfight and gives the unsuccessful ship the ability to finish off their killer before they've had time to blink and repair their components.
I played a few hours-worth of matches with many close clanmates tonight, and we made a pact between captains not to spawn in too close because it ruined the strategy and fun of killing and being killed. If we are forced to do that to make it fun then something is deeply wrong - let alone the fact that the system is too easy to abuse.
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At the very least choosing spawns could be a match setting like scramble right?
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At no point should there ever be a choice of spawn system. It would just lead to people making lobbies with whichever spawn system benefited their strategy. Not everything can have an option unfortunately.
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At the very least choosing spawns could be a match setting like scramble right?
I wouldn't mind seeing that - the idea that there is a specific game type that is designed for more rapid, fast paced and high octane play is a great one. However, its place is not the regular deathmatch.
It is guaranteed that your enemy will abuse their power to warp in to right where you just killed them, giving you next to no advantage for killing them in the first place. It is guaranteed that they will spawn exactly where they need to, almost giving them an advantage for dying first. How is that even resemblant of 'fair' or tactical?
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It was more an idea for a temporary solution for people that really don't want to use it. While the system is being tested and refined.
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Well if that's the case, then it shouldn't of been put in if it was unfinished to begin with. No offence to anyone of course.
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On the face of it:
If during the First World War it had been possible for a taskforce of soldiers to suddenly appear out of nowhere without prior warning or detection behind the enemy's lines - it would have been a tactical outrage and would have swung the war.
I see no difference between spawn choosing (in its current iteration) and that short allegory.
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i was in the match Jacob mentioned and while waterhazard wasn't so bad, the 3v3 CP match was just a fuster cluck the entire time. my ships voice chat was just filled with "OH GOD the *enemy ship* spawned right behind us!".
so my suggestion? when you die, make any 2 spawn locations available at random. Or make it so that if an enemy ship is within a certain distance, lets say one square of the map, that spawn point is no longer available to anyone.
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Personally, until it's improved or removed, the game is not fun to play for me or my friends :c It's just really upsetting I can't play one of my favorite games...
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We know it's not perfect and are planning to make improvement on it over time. There is some functionality that got missed between the lead time from engineering to design testing which we'll be adding in soon.
Most likely, the system will stay and move towards each map having a concept of "bases." The concept is best demonstrated in the current Fjords and Canyons. Teams will initially spawn in their 'base' and only have access to their side of the map's related spawn points. Due to a lack of functionality, larger maps like Dunes has you initially spawn in a tight pack with your team but also allow you to spawn on the other side of the map. This will likely change later.
Either way, we are open to your comments.
That should work to stop the crazy spawn flanking going on but still give players the choice to spawn closer or father away from the action.
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I'd personally like to see it removed until a better implementation is found: having Brawler Pyramidions spawn directly BEHIND my sniping Spire is...annoying. I haven't played a KotH yet, but I'm concerned about those game modes as well.
My biggest pet peeve is that there's always an "ideal" spawn point and, unless a fight moves across the map, ships always come in from the same angle: the fastest approach from a spawn to the current fight. It makes fights predictable and repetitive, which I severely dislike.
I'd much prefer an automated spawn that doesn't take map "sides" into account, and instead relies on enemy proximity to keep spawns distant from the enemies (if no surviving ally is near them) or a moderate distance from enemies (if your ally is still in combat). This helps reset fights without leading to a constant stream of 1v2s (as if your ally is still in a fight you'll spawn closer to them than you would if they're also dead).
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The Gents may be refraining from competitive games for now until this is changed.
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I'd personally like to see it removed until a better implementation is found: having Brawler Pyramidions spawn directly BEHIND my sniping Spire is...annoying. I haven't played a KotH yet, but I'm concerned about those game modes as well.
My biggest pet peeve is that there's always an "ideal" spawn point and, unless a fight moves across the map, ships always come in from the same angle: the fastest approach from a spawn to the current fight. It makes fights predictable and repetitive, which I severely dislike.
I'd much prefer an automated spawn that doesn't take map "sides" into account, and instead relies on enemy proximity to keep spawns distant from the enemies (if no surviving ally is near them) or a moderate distance from enemies (if your ally is still in combat). This helps reset fights without leading to a constant stream of 1v2s (as if your ally is still in a fight you'll spawn closer to them than you would if they're also dead).
I personally like the idea of this, for instance after death the game chooses a spawn within a ring at x distance from enemy ships should an allied vessel be within x proximity of an enemy vessel, should an allied vessel not be within x distance of an enemy vessel the game chooses a spawn within a ring x distance of an allied vessel.
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Spawn Selection needs to be taken out of the maps were 'bases' have not been pinned. I tried 4v4 tonight and it was pure chaos. I would hotfix those map's spawn select asap because it has made those maps broken.
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I personally like the idea of this, for instance after death the game chooses a spawn within a ring at x distance from enemy ships should an allied vessel be within x proximity of an enemy vessel, should an allied vessel not be within x distance of an enemy vessel the game chooses a spawn within a ring x distance of an allied vessel.
Basically, yes. Although I'd suggest the formula take the form of "Within X distance, but no closer than Y distance," to prevent spawns within immediate proximity.
So, say, between (X to Y) distance if an ally is in combat, or within (2X to 2Y) if an ally is not in combat. Numbers subject to adjustment: this is just a formula that shows the idea better.
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4v4 have always been pretty chaotic though, but I can see it getting even more so with ship getting back into the fight directly on spawn.
The only issue I have with most of these ideas is that while it does solve the brawler builds spawning right on your face, it doesn't stop a long range build from spawning within easy shooting range of you. So by fixing the brawler on mah face issue, it'd be promoting more long range builds, making it more difficult for the brawl builds. Since they'd spawn further away (like normal) and the long range ships can shoot them as they approach. Where if the long range is taken out, they can spawn in a prime location and snipe away.
The issue with creating 'bases' or spawn zones for each team is that it could promote more camping (see: canyon ambush). One team almost always camps near their spawn locations and forces the other team to engage them. If the camping team is taken out, they can still spawn on their face, where if the attacking team is taken out, it's a long fly back.
I can't really see an ideal solution for this. Something that might work is making the respawn take longer depending on how close they are to their team spawn. If they're very close, make it take longer, while if it's pretty far off, make it take shorter. Then you can set the team spawns in such a way as they can't instantly engage across the spawns. This means if the attackers were killed by the campers, they'd be able to get back their faster. While if the campers were killed, they wouldn't be able to instantly spawn on their head. Balancing it in such a way as it would take about the same time for both teams to reach the location.
So if team A is 20 seconds from their spawn, and team B is 5 seconds from their spawn; Team A might have a 10 second respawn where team B might have a 25 second respawn. This would promote teams to engage further from their spawn. The team 'bases' should also reduce the amount of spawning on heads or in ideal sniping locations right from the get go.
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The only issue I have with most of these ideas is that while it does solve the brawler builds spawning right on your face, it doesn't stop a long range build from spawning within easy shooting range of you. So by fixing the brawler on mah face issue, it'd be promoting more long range builds, making it more difficult for the brawl builds. Since they'd spawn further away (like normal) and the long range ships can shoot them as they approach. Where if the long range is taken out, they can spawn in a prime location and snipe away.
Which is the strength of long range, and something that's always been the case. Close range ships need to close the distance: it's a bigger problem on, say, Dunes, but I'd say that map already has a bunch of issues.
By having a maximum and minimum distance there's still some spawn luck involved, but you can keep spawns within realistic ranges: not 2600m on the other side of the map, but also not 30m away and right behind you.
The issue with creating 'bases' or spawn zones for each team is that it could promote more camping (see: canyon ambush). One team almost always camps near their spawn locations and forces the other team to engage them. If the camping team is taken out, they can still spawn on their face, where if the attacking team is taken out, it's a long fly back.
This is why I recommend doing away with "base" spawn zones after the game has begun: it's more fair if teams don't have that home turf spawn advantage.
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I think we should have a bit more discussion about increasing the spawn timer.
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The main cause for increasing the timer (and leaving everything else the same) is to make it less likely that ships will respawn on top of you. I think the current respawn is 20 seconds or so if you're fast (or longer if you're like me and forget that you have to manually spawn). This lets the team that killed more time to move away from the area/shake their spots and/or kill the remaining teammate.
The downside of course is that it makes the gameplay feel a lot slower. Being killed sucks. Having to wait 20+ seconds sucks harder. Generally the surviving ships are going to stay near that area until they beat down the remaining ship. Which means that you'd have the make the respawn timer pretty long to give them time to do so. They could of course run away, but players tend not to do that. They have the advantage, and as long as one of the enemy is alive, they're more likely to be spotted, giving away their location on the map. Running away also tends to open up their blindspots, and they'll take a lot of damage from the survivor (maybe).
In general it's not that bad of an idea, as you usually couldn't get back to your ally in time to save them under the previous random spawn system anyways. Unless you got super lucky, or they ran away. I do think that the added time of staring at the map waiting for the timer to count down would turn a lot of players off from the game though. And it would make that first kill that much more important.
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Either a lucky or a unlucky spawn after an engagement could decide the game for you or the opponent.
Such a luck factor doestn suit competetive gaming.
Agreed, however current solution also don't fit into competitive gaming.
Look at it this way, when you are sunk you can show up to battle with new ship
in about 15 seconds. And if enemies are still spotted, and they usually will be
as they are engaging your allay, you can choose to pop onto their blind spots.
It means that getting destroyed, while still costing you point and moving closer
to ultimate defeat, provides you with short time of tactical advantage.
In competitive games you shouldn't gain any advantages from loosing
unless you think about sacrificing units to achieve long term goal in strategy games
but GoI gameplay type don't really fit this sort of tactics.
I think that base system will fix that problem as each map will have sort of safe spot
where you can count on your temmate spawning close, although sadly this solution will
probably make camping more popular.
Also like Dutch Vanya said, it should be optional at least until tested and refined.
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I really hate giving this type of feedback to a small group of people who really have created such an awesome game.
But this current spawning system is destroying it. 2 Days ago, i introduced the Competetive side to a friend who has never played goio and said that he instantly sees what is going on and what makes it competetive etc, unlike how league of legends requiers knowledge within the game to see what makes THAT so competetive.
Having a small Blue baloon, or Red baloon to determine which side is which. And ofc to identify where the main spawns are. For example, the fjord spawns are really easy to get lucky spawns at when the fight is at one of the bases. With the concept of having to ONLY spawn at your own side, the MAIN spawns should have colored baloons to remind the enemy team that their enemies can spawn there. All other available spawns should remain invisible to their side.
This will makes things more predictable in a way where the enemy may not want to get close to those enemy baloons when they just have destroyed a ship. OR they want to get close so they spawn kill BUT they didnt choose to spawn at their main bases (oh no!) So all of a sudden you have a bit more predictable and competetive strategy going on with spawns.
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I have noticed some players choosing to spawn as close to the action as possible even if they are at a tactical disadvantage. This lead to some brutal meat grinding where the loosing side didn't have the chance to regroup and plan the next encounter. I didn't die too often so I didn't get to see the specifics of the spawning system. Is there an exclusion zone around hostile ships so a respawned ship doesn't appear right on top of it? Maybe it should be widened so that there is more intensive to retreat back to your teammate.
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I have noticed some players choosing to spawn as close to the action as possible even if they are at a tactical disadvantage. This lead to some brutal meat grinding where the loosing side didn't have the chance to regroup and plan the next encounter. I didn't die too often so I didn't get to see the specifics of the spawning system. Is there an exclusion zone around hostile ships so a respawned ship doesn't appear right on top of it? Maybe it should be widened so that there is more intensive to retreat back to your teammate.
At this time there is not an exclusion zone. Possibly the inclusion of one would give teams some breathing space?
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How long before people start getting free kills by mining up most likely spawn points?
EDIT: Or people killing themselves at match start to get free respawn somewhere else.
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How long before people start getting free kills by mining up most likely spawn points?
EDIT: Or people killing themselves at match start to get free respawn somewhere else.
I've already seen it. The system is too easy to abuse.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY5Yt_Iwctg
Here's a video of a match earlier today on Fjords. I think this map has the sides divided a little more, although you still see them spawning at the same point pretty much on top of each other near the end.
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i was in the match Jacob mentioned and while waterhazard wasn't so bad, the 3v3 CP match was just a fuster cluck the entire time. my ships voice chat was just filled with "OH GOD the *enemy ship* spawned right behind us!".
so my suggestion? when you die, make any 2 spawn locations available at random. Or make it so that if an enemy ship is within a certain distance, lets say one square of the map, that spawn point is no longer available to anyone.
(*Have not played a match with this yet*)
^ I think that could work out better, combining random spawns with choice spawns. Giving 2 random spawn points and if there are 2 opposing ships within a certain spawn then that spawn is disabled and wont be randomised.
Or getting rid of choice spawns completely and being able to set a "spawn preference", away from enemy, closer to enemy, near ally (Or something along the lines of that) And it will pick a randomised spawn point which wont be directly on top of an enemy so that you can blow them up a few seconds after you die or spawn further away.
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I played a bit yesterday with the spawn system and I have an idea. Disable the middle spawns, and only make it possible to spawn at the edge of the map. This way you can choose your angle of attack after you doe, but you can't spawn on the enemy unless the combat is taking place on said edge.
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What about a semi-random spawn system instead? A combination of how it is and how it was. Rather than picking your exact spawn, just be able to pick general spawn locations, then you get a random spawn in that area. Sometimes you will get a lucky spawn, sometimes not.
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What about a semi-random spawn system instead? A combination of how it is and how it was. Rather than picking your exact spawn, just be able to pick general spawn locations, then you get a random spawn in that area. Sometimes you will get a lucky spawn, sometimes not.
This, I like this.
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What about a semi-random spawn system instead? A combination of how it is and how it was. Rather than picking your exact spawn, just be able to pick general spawn locations, then you get a random spawn in that area. Sometimes you will get a lucky spawn, sometimes not.
This, I like this.
That doesn't sound too bad at all. If the square with any 'spotted' enemies was greyed out and you could pick from any of the other grids - yes... I could go for that. When the issue of 'if you can't spawn near the enemy then you know where they are' came up - it was forgotten to note that you can respawn quicker than the ship you were fighting can shake its spot. Of course it makes sense to prevent you from spawning next to your killer. This proposition is very encouraging.
The system could be adapted for CP maps such that you can't spawn into regions close to the point - at the moment you can do so, which means suicide runs aren't penalised. It should take time for your ship to advance to the tactical location. This could work.
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What about if, when you die, you had the option to spawn in next to your ally (if they are not in combat themselves)? Just another thing to think about. That idea is a little less overpowered than being able to spawn anywhere.
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For a hotfix, this is what can happen:
- Teams will spawn close together and in formation on their side of the map (the missing piece of functionality)
- Players can spawn in a selection of spawn only on their side of the map (reorganization of current valid spawns to team-specific) or any type of organization for that matter
- Spawn choice will stay in since it will take a while to pull if we decide to
Hot fix is planned to launch on by Monday
Some interesting takeaways from your comments:
- Select a quadrant or subsection of the map to spawn in. Each quadrant will have some number of spawns that will randomly be selected for you based on old spawn logic (not spawning you into terrain or near enemies)
I'd also like to point out that these features are always tested before release and again there wasn't much participation in the Dev App. There wasn't enough input early enough for us to safely pull the feature. Part of it is on us and we'll make sure to hold testing for longer periods of time. However, I'd like to encourage everyone to take part in Dev App testing. Email keyvias@musegames.com if you'd like to take part. It's great to get everyone's feedback here, but of course the feature is out in the wild and we can't really do much about it until hot fix or next patch.
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Why are we working so hard to fix a system that is not liked, not required, and as best I can tell hardly even asked for. Spawns were fine a week ago, sure you could occasionally get unlucky on Fjords, but that was about it.
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Everyone complained about the old spawn system too and just got used to it.
We can't pull the feature in a week anyway. I'd rather attempt to fix it and make it better, see how that goes, before pulling out a lot of work (which also takes a lot of work).
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Barring a distance-based spawning algorithm like the one I've suggested, and assuming that we're trying to fix a "Captain's Choice" spawning algorithm...
For one thing, there has to be some system in effect to prevent spawning within a given proximity of an enemy. Killing an enemy ship should net you a distinct advantage, not a 15-20 second window before a full health brawling Pyramidion spawns behind you. It's well worth having a zone of "can't spawn here" to force this: after all, you usually know where your enemies are when you die, and 15-20 seconds isn't enough time for them to radically change position on the map.
I'd also recommend that spawn locations be increased in number, and the available spawns be psudeo-randomized each time. A game I was in recently involved us killing enemy ships, remembering the "good" spawns near us, and simply waiting for them. By psudeo-randomizing the available spawns near a fight you help prevent the situation where ships always pick the most effective spawn and then take the exact same path into the fight, which helps decrease the repetitive nature of fights that I've experienced in the current build. Alternatively, lock out spawns, preventing you from simply spawning at the same point repeatedly.
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I almost like the idea of team spawn zones, but to me that feels as if it promotes camping. What about creating 2 or 3 different areas on the map per team, disabling zones where enemies are present?
So if one team decides to camp at their own spawn area in order to get back into the fight faster after going down, it will spawn them in one of the other zones on the map; making them have to fly back to assist the remaining team mate instead of spawning on top of the enemies head.
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I think this brings up an important point about player complaints and suggestions.
What we tend to complain about is things that give us a disadvantage. We didn't like the random spawns because we'd end up getting unlucky spawns and be forced to fly across the whole map. We don't like this system because even though we can spawn wherever we want (and we love that) is that so can our enemies. You'll notice most players bringing up 'spawning right behind me/on top of me' and not 'I spawned right behind them/on top of them'.
Right now the system -is- fair, extremely so. It even helps newer players do better against veterans, as they can spawn in ideal locations and get the drop on them. So it's much much harder to get that 5-0 score. The old system was also fair, but the random element could make it tip one way or another.
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You'll notice most players bringing up 'spawning right behind me/on top of me' and not 'I spawned right behind them/on top of them'.
I actually have a huge issue with this as well. I don't feel like I have a *choice* of spawns: there's always one that's clearly best, and that's usually the one that puts me right down on my opponent's blind side and within my gun range. I don't find it particularly fair when it's done against me (when I'm most aware of it), but I also don't find it fair to know pop into existence behind an enemy spire and have my Carronade pointed immediately at his balloon either.
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@Thomas: Very astute observations, and is exactly the pros and cons of each system. We think the new system is a step in the right direction because randomness and tipping matches just because of that randomness is pretty silly.
By moving towards limited spawns and bases, I think we can move the system away from this "extremely fair" situation. Sure, you'll be able to spawn on top of people if they're in your 'base'. Sure, you'll be able to get spawned on top of if you're in their 'base'. This is the only situation where it can tip, if you are in each other's respective spawns. I believe that the coming improvements will focus battles near the center of the two bases.
This limited choice will also help eliminate the obvious-choice problem as well. Since battles are likely to occur near the center and base spawn are behind the lines of scrimmage, it's a decision of what direction you want to approach combat from and at what distance.
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I've never said the new system is unfair. Instead it is unfun. Exploiting respawns will become a new skill that competitive teams will have to learn. The only tactic being added by choosing spawns at the moment is exploitation of the system.
I'm sorry you put in a feature that is not being well received but love of God, Guns is downright unplayable at the moment to fix an almost non existent problem.
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By moving towards limited spawns and bases, I think we can move the system away from this "extremely fair" situation. Sure, you'll be able to spawn on top of people if they're in your 'base'. Sure, you'll be able to get spawned on top of if you're in their 'base'. This is the only situation where it can tip, if you are in each other's respective spawns. I believe that the coming improvements will focus battles near the center of the two bases.
The issues I see with this are two-fold (playing Devil's Advocate here):
Firstly, this strongly encourages zone-camping to retain your home-turf advantage. I can easily see games stagnating as each team tries to remain within the spawn range of their 'zone.'
Secondly...is it really ideal to attempt to force engagements to happen in the middle of maps? I know I personally love much of the map design, and it upsets me that we don't see as many fights in the corners of Canyon Ambush, some of the trickier edges of Duel, and so forth. On some maps (Dunes, I'm looking at you) this is less of an issue, but I feel that many of our maps have fully fleshed out and fully playable edges, so I'm not sure it's really a good idea to place so great an emphasis on fighting in the middle to avoid giving up a spawn advantage. Those combats already happen naturally...I don't like the idea of the spawn system forcing our hand.
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Combat often gravitates towards certain areas on maps as is. The one I like the least is canyon ambush, where almost all combat occurs south of the canyon near the blue spawn. (There was some suggestions about moving some clouds out of the canyon and around these areas to promote more players to push into the canyon where they can see better, and not hang around the large open area).
Players tend to move to places where they can maneuver and see better. It might require a little 'motivation' to be put in the spawn areas to help them decide they probably don't want to be there. (Unlike canyon, where the spawns are actually ideal for camping). Some heavy cloud cover or obstacles in the way could easily do the trick, and a lot of maps (all of them) already come with these features. It's just a matter of setting the locations. Although some maps may need to be tweaked (canyon canyon canyon canyon. Because I'm subtle).
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Maybe take the ship icons out of the Spawn Map (And Smollett''s suggestion of an increased spawn timer is a very good point)
Making it a little harder to spawn right in the middle of the action.
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I have tried this on Labyrinth. My blenderfish managed to die at the same time as enemy hwachafish. What happened was that both choose the exact same spawn point. I was pinned to the end of the match there becouse enemy goldfish just kept spawning on that spawn and prevented me from getting to the point (you do NOT let a hwachafish on your tail).
Point of this story: Spawning ANYWHERE is an issue.
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It seems giving away the enemies general position in order to disallow spawning within a certain proximity of the enemy is worth it.
General bearings of enemies are almost always known after a fight anyways so telegraphing that intel shouldn't be too detrimental to the team that got the kill.
I'm in favor of a base/bases idea (might be best for teams to have two bases so they can't be camped), implementing slightly longer respawns and only being able to choose spawn points that are a certain distance away from enemy ships.
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Time was 12 seconds. 20 seconds seems okay... maybe still fast. 30??!
Initial spawn stuff and bases are ready for the hot patch next week. At some point this will drop into Dev App for testing. Will let everyone know when.
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G’day guys I'm not a fan of complaining about stuff and I have never posted a
complaint before and I don't want this to become a trend for me.
So I’m going to start with a story of current game play to best showcase my point of
why the spawn system is bad or worse than it was before
(http://i.imgur.com/pqJAhSv.jpg)
Ok double pyra vs mobula junker
(http://i.imgur.com/eWHMQty.jpg)
The first pyra dies and teammate fly’s past now I can just spawn behind the mobula
and take him out.
(http://i.imgur.com/eWHMQty.jpg)
He barely gets a chance to turn around and attack me.
(http://i.imgur.com/VXleZ3s.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/6Ejpf3S.jpg)
So at this point I should point out that now there’s a slow mobula that won't be able
to make it back in time to help his junker.
and the junker dies...
(http://i.imgur.com/2OFQh4I.jpg)
Now there’s no reason why the ship that dies first should win the game
This puts these ships at a disadvantage
mobula: Slow turning speed, primarily long range.
Spire: Weak to close range, slow speed.
Squid: Speed advantage is lessened.
Makes dual pyramidions a likely thing and dual pyra is never much fun
Case in point I believe that this should be fixed sooner than later.
I can see a lot of people leaving the game before even trying it out e.g.
“omg that ship spawned behind me before i could turn around... or even worse omg
what killed me”
I had a level 4 pilot on my team keep saying they’re always behind me when the
high level clan keeps spawning behind them
Can’t see many new players coming back to the game if they think this is meant to
be a part of the game; also, many high level players as we’ve seen on this thread
are also unhappy with the new system.
I take no pleasure in killing someone from behind unless it was my skill that got me
there.
Clouds have less utility in regard to the new spawning system.
Strategy is a lesser part of the game now, and people have been abusing the
system by delaying the spawn and then spawning behind slow ships.
I am in favor of a new system with some tweaks to spawn location and the respawn
timer.
Something like this
(http://i.imgur.com/FHaBj9v.jpg)
Thanks to everyone that shares the same view, and Naf clanmen for helping out.
Edited by: Castus Crios (English aficionado)
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While I appreciate the visual aides, would it have been a bit much to turn off tutorial tips?
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Just a suggestion, but if you wanted to have it be impossible to spawn next to an enemy, you could disable spawns near the enemy, and also disable some random spawns. Then all you know is a few locations where you can spawn where they definatly aren't.
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I really do have to add my name to the list of dissenters.
I play an engineering class by preference and that moment of breathing time after a hard battle is especially important. Everything is on fire, the engines are toast, balloon failing and hull barely online and you are rushing about to get your poor ship back to working condition.
Now before you even have a chance to get half your systems online your enemy is behind you again. In a recent battle my captain spent almost all our time trying to get to an ally while the exact same junker spawned on our tail over and over again like a boomerang.
Its taken a lot of the skill from the game, captains can run suicidally at players, gunner just have to load up their most powerful shots and get a good burst into their already weak ally. Engineers are reduced to desperately hitting the hull and ignoring all the other components of their vessels. Not to mention ship builds have been limited, nobody can use a sniping ship and larger vessels that require maneuvering time for a good shot will last seconds.
This system really should have been tested before launch. If your devs really feel it needs to stay then please disable it from the game modes we know and add new ones, the tactics and skills the DM and CP modes require is something we have all worked hard to aquire and this isn't helping, in fact it it is limiting everything equally.
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Not sure if this has been brought up but you can kill your self at the start of the match and pick a spawn right behind the other team.
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Visual aids are fun! So, to add a few of my own to support the regional, semi-random spawn suggestion:
We start with a map that looks somewhat like this. Each dot is a spawn region indicator.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img191/8885/etbe.jpg)
Hovering on a point will give you the full region bounds, ownership (going with bases), as well as spawn times. Clicking on that point will give you a random spawn in the highlighted area. We are Red Team in this set of examples.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img823/5492/lcgi.jpg)
Regions come in different shapes based on location.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img209/7968/zlbm.jpg)
Moving to a Purple point closer to your enemies' base will start incurring time penalties.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img59/461/sj9r.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img845/2958/maax.jpg)
Finally, spawning in what would be considered the lair of the evil Blue Dragon gives you a severe time penalty, as well as not giving you a guarantied good spawn.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img855/6195/9zsg.jpg)
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Any dramatic departure from what is available now will not be in for at least several months (like the above spawn quadrants or sectors, while cool it'll take us a while to get in. We are in fact understaffed at this point in time). The best we can do right now is, again:
1) Real initial spawns, ones that don't exist once you spawn at them when matches start. This way your team fleet of ships can start close together in any part of the map, mostly closer to the center or wherever combat is deemed to take place.
2) Readjusting available spawns to emphasize bases so you can't spawn on the other side of the map.
@Richard LeMoon
And what do you propose the deployment times be based on? Right now, deployment times are a static 12 seconds which is too short for what we have now. It will likely be boosted up to 20s or even up to 30s depending on further testing.
Also, using Richard LeMoon's images as reference for what I'm doing now.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img191/8885/etbe.jpg)
Blue and red team will spawn close to the center purple dot when the match starts (initial spawn). This purple line is the line of scrimmage (there are actually two, a purple line for blue and another for red... so lines of scrimmage). The only time people spawn at the line of scrimmage is during match start.
Once players die, they must spawn in their respective bases (the blue and red spawn points as depicted, there will actually be 4 spawns in each base). All of the base spawns will be before their lines of scrimmage to maintain onside (just like in sports). Spawns will not spawn you offside.
I'm using these rules for DM maps and they mostly hold true. Some spawns in maps that have complex terrain are closer to scrimmage lines, some larger maps may spawn offside but in a corner of a map (Fight over Firnfeld 3v3, lines of scrimmage are on either side of the center choke point. There is an [close to] offside spawn on both south and north, north is blue and south is red).
Now, this is what the very best we can do on such short notice. Again, a lot of time was put into crafting the system to get it working and we still missed a few features. It will also take a non-trivial amount of time to revert it back to the old system. The question is, do you wait an entire month and live with the new system until it can get yanked or accept some improvements on the new system?
My hope is that the new system will solve the problems with the old spawn (yes, there were always complaints about it and improvements have been on the docket for some time now). It's not perfectly executed as you all can see. What I want everyone to do is email keyvias@musegames.com and get registered with Dev App and help us test these improvements. Again, we put changes into Dev App before we release anything. We didn't get much feedback on this system.
More time to test with more players will help us ship features that work. We can all help each other work out the kinks.
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Spawn delay is something you need to be very careful with. The longer you force players to sit and wait after dying, the higher chance they're going to leave. 30 seconds sounds absolutely horrid and I would much rather deal with random spawns than a half minute wait after every death.
From a gameplay perspective it pretty much guarantees your ally will rarely if ever survive long enough in a 2v1 for you to rejoin them. It seems like this would be an even more significant issue in 3v3/4v4, but I don't really play those modes.
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Totally understand on the implementation issue. Don't take anything I say as a demand for something "RIGHT NOW!" as you may get from others. Just making suggestions for the (distant) future, and tossing things at the wall to see what sticks. As for the time to deploy thing, those times are just pulled out of thin air, likely completely wrong, and also just tossed at the wall of sticking. The main thought there is to to maybe allow for strategic off-sides spawns, but at a cost that may not be worth it. It encourages own base spawns, but does not demand it.
I have only been in a few 3v3 matches as captain so far with the new system, and only died once (in a Mobula? Yes, in a Mobula), so can't really say much about it as is.
Sorry for not getting involved in the testing. I'll see what I can do in the future.
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@Richard LeMoon
Yes, I know they were ideas and thank you for providing your ideas. They were very useful.
I just want to paint a clear picture of what can and can't happen in the immediate future.
And for the future, hell this thing may ultimately get pulled but I don't make decisions until each stage has been rolled out. We have a hot fix coming in a week and will hopefully solve many grievances that were express here and in dev app. Yes, there were people who did not like this in dev app but it was a very small sample size. I even had a poll whether about what to do with it but there were only 10 participants when we handed out several hundred keys. We need more testers!
Voices being heard here is great but I'd even like this to be even bigger and louder. If more people participate here, publicly, then it's likely that dev app will also get more participants. That's the real key here. We need active numbers.
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As in some other games I have been in, there are a lot of people that never read forums or news, or even ingame chat. If you want to get a lot more feedback, I recommend tossing a nice, hard to miss, "Test new features before anyone else! Be a part of making the game the best it can be! Try the Dev App now." kind of thing on the main menu of the game itself. In the empty space next to Quick Join and Matches might work. Not sure if you could do this, but if you want even more testing and feedback, think about giving actual achievements for testing things. 'Tinker' achievements, or some such.
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I know my issue with Dev App testing is the small community: I'm not always available at testing times due to my work schedule, and it's VERY difficult to test things like how Spawning reacts in a real game with just 1-2 people. :(
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Right now I think the best course of action is to just split the spawn zones for the teams. I am however, not really stoked about spawning near/at my enemies at the start of the match (if I'm reading this correctly). While it's nifty for ships to spawn in formation and close to each other, it gives certain ships a larger advantage. Namely those with close range high burst damage (brawl builds). I think spawning on their respective sides and needing to approach each other like usual is ok. I know a lot of ships use this initial travel time to form up with their team, and do some last minute planning and give out orders. If you spawn too close to your enemy you don't get this time. This can lead to more time being spent in the lobbies as they have to do more of the planning before they get into the game, and then they don't have time to make any corrections/clarifications. This extra little time is also to give the slow loaders that time to finish loading.
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So, I have tried this out now for a string of games on both the winning and losing side. The main thing I noticed is that matches are confined to very small areas of large maps. As such, old strategies don't work. Pilots are bringing new sets of tools and trying out different loadouts. I actually found the frantic 'brawling riot' a lot of fun, even in my slow-turning Mobula. Team communication is even more key in winning. It is sort of like playing on an even smaller Scrap map without all the scrap in the way. All in all, it is not as terrible as everyone has been saying. It is just different. Rather than turning to engage the next foe with your allies, you often turn to empty air to cover a flank.
Saying that, the cons are that you do ignore most of the map, and there is no time to fix everything while your foe gets a fresh ship. Like most people, though, I would not want to play this style of game all the time. It is just way too frantic.
However, even when spawns are fixed, I would not mind having a new map that actually highlighted this fast-action brawling without too many tricky obstacles (looking at you, Scrap). Something like a larger, flyable version of the Devil's Sinkhole in Texas. But, that is besides the point.
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The neutral zone in between each line of scrimmage is similar to what it is currently in Dunes. It should remain similar for all DM maps.
@Richard LeMoon
This is promising. Hopefully with the coming improvements some of that frantic energy is maintained but also bring back some of the more calculated efforts. In short, both is good.
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i'm just going to repost because it looks like my views are being ignored
and i'm a high level player and have played for a while and i play on avg 20 to 40 matches a day
should not be able to spawn in the middle of the map special if there a battle going on
shouldn't be able to spawn on the same spot straight after some one else
main reason why
mobula: Slow turning speed, primarily long range.
Spire: Weak to close range, slow speed.
Squid: Speed advantage is lessened.
Clouds have less utility in regard to the new spawning system.
Strategy is a lesser part of the game now, and people have been abusing the
system by delaying the spawn and then spawning behind slow ships.
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I really dislike the new system.
I was having significant communication and coordination issues with my crew last night (along with terrible loadout decisions on my part) which should have rendered us pretty much completely ineffective. The respawn system allowed us to get some kills that we didn't earn.
It felt very cheaty and it's not the sort of thing where I can just emulate the old respawn mechanics on my own as I would then be conceding a huge advantage to my opponent (if they "cheat" with the new system) and that would be even less fun.
Killing your opponent should never put you in a weaker combat position.
If anything, I would go with the suggestion of having a limited number of respawn points to choose from. Use the same logic that decided acceptable respawns before and just let the top 3-5 preferred by that algorithm be available to choose from. You still might get the "lucky" close spawn, but then you have a choice whether to use it (rather than before when you could end in an immediate 2v1 again!).
That way, you don't get a free "drop" on your enemy when you die (unless you're lucky), but you can sit and wait to deploy and spawn with your ally before engaging again.
I've always seen the respawn system as emulating re-enforcement ships arriving into the battlefield. Perhaps instead of a timer-to-deploy, you can choose your angle of entrance to the map and when you deploy, you actually fly onto the map from outside it? This way, you can be seen being reintroduced as a threat, even if the engagement is right at the edge of the map.
For example, say I die and immediately choose to enter the map from the south. My ship would be spawned off the south side of the map and flown in on autopilot at a speed that would reintroduce me to the match 10 seconds after my death, up to the ships maximum possible speed (i.e. as though moonshine was being used but without the damage). During this autopilot time, nothing would be interactive to prevent "en route" buffing, ammo loadout etc.
If I instead decide to wait, due to knowing my ally is about to die, we can both spawn in together.
Pros:
1) More realistic
2) Ships no longer materialise out of nowhere, let alone right next to you
3) No change to time taken to become "active" in the map (unless you sit at the respawn for quite a while)
4) Enemies get a chance to see your reentering the map and behave accordingly (i.e. disengage and retreat)
Cons:
1) Enemy can camp your reentry point as they can see you while the ship is in autopilot
2) Can lead to being autopiloted into mines at the edge of the map
3) Momentum from map entrance could be used to do ramming damage or end up flying you into terrain
4) May not work on all maps (Canyon Ambush)
5) EDIT: Discourages combat at the map edges
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Patches with big fundamental changes need more time in Dev App. We push to get our members signed up do testing events. But we need more time to fit these events into our schedule. With such a large change, every map needed to be tested. One week between Dev App to Release is not enough time...
Also, there were lots of concerns on the Dev App forum, but were ignored and told 'I'll let it play out and see what happens.' What happens is you lose casual and competitive players until the next patch. Not a good gamble to make on a PvP game..
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Basically, no logic changes can be made right now.
It's either fix spawn locations, or not ship the feature.
To use this as reference: no one asked for this system. We've been asking for spawn fixes since...May? Fjords and Dunes have been broken competitively in terms of immediate spawn locations. We have been quite clear that we want this fixed, it seems like this "feature" is something you guys want, not us.
BTW still love ya Eric we just need this stuff fixed
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I'll just lay out a common scenario that happened last night when I was playing. I was in a sniping war with two Spires as a Mobula. After a good while, I got outgunned and died. Then I looked at the spawns and saw that I could spawn behind not only the two Spires, but the entire enemy team. My ship consisted of 1 Mercury and 4 Artemi. Result? Two spires almost immediately disabled and killed, and the other two ships weakened enough for my allies to finish off with no trouble. I backed off a little from the spawn, and sure enough the Spires spawned, but with their back towards me. Another quick disable and kill.
Before my initial death, the game was relatively equal in score, but that one spawn really threw off the balance between the teams. I suggest either disabling the ability to spawn in enemy territory entirely or have a longer timer to respawn.
Here's another scenario and common to crazy KoTH type games. Since there are "base" spawns now, often, one team gets a huge lead advantage by having the entire team spawn right next to the point and having all the time in the world to prepare for the enemy team that spawned all the way across the map from the point. The rest of the points may be contested fairly, but that initial spawn gives way too much to the team that spawns nearest to it.
I suggest the initial spawning for crazy KoTH type games to be like be scrambled and random like before this patch so that no team gets such a big advantage at the start.
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It feels like giving up, and of course I don't know how GoI's code is archived from patch to patch - but is it not possible to roll-back parts of code that were implimented into the new build? For instance, is the code that is responsible for the end-of-match poses separately archived from the code that changes the spawn system? If the answer is yes, is it possible to revert the spawn system code back to how it was before the patch without corrupting the rest of the code?
I dislike my suggestion on the face of it, but at least that way changes to the system could be safely tested in the Dev App without keeping the current game in the state it's in at the moment. That said, i'm sure the hotfix on Monday will likely render my suggestion moot.
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Bottom line, Muse: No one likes this system, no one asked for this feature, and no amount of added things like 'ship proximity limits' or 'team bases' is going to fix that. The only thing people ever wanted was for the starting spawns on Fjords and Dunes to be fixed, that's all.
We all appreciate the way you thought this was a good idea, and only wanted to help. But please change it back.
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Has anyone played Scrap under the new system? Personally I feel that change was really well done, or at least I think it was a change. I believe the old system had ships spawn at other sides of the map and race to the middle. When playing recently we spawned near the same side and had to race to the point while also being able to engage. It was a lot more intense and opened up some interesting new strategies.
In this particular instance I was careening like a mad-man towards the point as is standard practice, and one of my team mates had the idea to engage the enemy to slow them down so we could get to the point first. Overall it was a pretty intense match.
My initial reaction to the new spawn system was pretty negative, but I think it can be made to work with a few tweaks. I think the initial spawn on Desert Scrap is pretty good. Ships start in formation, fairly close to the enemy. Not close enough to start brawling immediately, but not far enough for sniping ships to feel comfortable. You put them about that distance apart with some clouds or terrain between them to prevent instant shootdowns, and you're off to a good start.
I don't think any player dislikes being able to choose their spawn. It's a nice feature. We just don't like being able to spawn immediately on top of each other. For the hotfix we can only change the spawn timer or locations (as far as I'm aware). We don't want the timer too long, so I think we should focus on locations.
Splitting the maps for teams seems like a good solution, even with the possible camping issue. Although I think it might be more interesting to cut it up into more than two pieces. For example:
(http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/thbrown07/DuneSpawn.png)
(http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/thbrown07/CanyonSpawn.png)
The purple is the initial, which is supposed to represent where ships more or less spawn currently. Then the red and blue spots are where each team can respectively spawn. Canyon isn't all that much different from the current version. It's essentially bases +1 extra spawn well behind enemy lines. This is to give a general spawn area, and options for flanking without being able to spawn directly on top of them (most of the time).
I think ideally options are good, but you don't want too many options. Right now the maps are pretty saturated with spawn points, making it so much easier to spawn on your enemy.
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No amount of spawn fixes is gonna make scrap fun. No one likes that map because the storms are a pain the a** plain and and simple. The storms seem good on paper, to make assaulting an encamped team on point easier. However the storm is so big and so random it essentially just flash stops all combat in a city block radius whilst everyone gets annoyed and starts repairing. Random grinding halts to combat for silly reasons is not a fun mechanic.
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People have complained about old spawns for a very long time. People just got used to it and forgot. Here is a review of the feedback we've gotten about the spawns:
- Still able to spawn close to enemy and get killed
- Potentially able to get into spawn limbo (no spawns available, all occupied by enemy)
- Spawn too far away from teammate
- Spawn too far away from capture point
- Spawn system is random, want choice
We've had spawn revisions on the docket for a very long time and it ended up getting done now. And to be honest, I want this spawn system to be in (with improvements, it's just broken right now. We missed things for a number of reasons so that's our fault).
To pull the code will require both client and server side work. It's not just rolling it back to a previous version.
We get it, you don't like it. We hear you. So we're fixing it.
Here is what's happening in the hot fix.
(http://www.gunsoficarus.com/files/fuckingMap.png)
Both teams spawn on their line of scrimmage near the center of the map. The distance between the lines of scrimmage is similar to the distance between initial spawns in the old spawn system, so don't worry. They're not any closer than they have to be to allow you to prep up and get a few Spire shots in before brawlers come charging through. Also, in Dunes you have roving sandstorms now so you can't just charge willy nilly.
The space in between the lines of scrimmage is the Hot Zone (I think I called it neutral before but this makes a little more sense). It's hot because it's probably where most of the combat is going to take place? Why? Because spawn points for each team are in their respective areas. Going into enemy zones will be very risky because they can choose a spawn that's in your blind spot. This gives defending players the opportunity to drive offensive players out of their zones. Combat will likely be driven back to Hot Zones where NO SPAWNING CAN TAKE PLACE. In other words, you can never spawn offside or beyond your line of scrimmage or in the hot zone. In Dunes DM, there are four spawns in each team's zone. Some closer to the line of scrimmage, others farther.
These rules are being applied the best they can to all DM maps. CK and KOTH maps do not fit the rules and will vary from map to map based on their capture point and terrain layout.
Why this system is better:
- You will never spawn randomly close to the enemy, if you spawn close to the enemy then they are invading your zone. If they kill you again, you can respawn on them. Basically, you have home team advantage.
- There will never be any spawn limbo since we don't block spawns based on proximity
- You can position yourself to get to your teammate quickly. You may not be able to spawn on your teammate if they are in the hot zone, though.
- You can choose spawns that are closer (or farther depending on your build) to the capture points
- You can choose where to spawn
- You can't spawn on the other side of the map (this wasn't possible before because of a small feature we glossed over, my fault, and it was too late to put the patch in. I made a call and left it this way instead of doing bases with intial spawn very far apart. I thought it would be better to start close to your teammates. I was wrong.)
Again, I get it that people don't like it. It's being changed, you can stop yelling now. Instead, please give me feedback on these proposed changes so I can make changes before this thing goes into the hot fix otherwise you may stuck with it until the next patch in 1.5 months.
I'll let everyone know when this goes into Dev App so people can test the maps.
@Bryon Cavendish
The storms are not random and are less than they were before. They move from left to right. When the cloud reaches the map edge, it respawns on the other side and begins again. Try playing it again and if it's still that bad I can take a look again. Furthermore, it takes less time to capture that point now.
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@Thomas
I like your ideas. I was actually thinking of pushing blue up to the canyon line in Canyons but decided against it. Basically no changes to it for now. Based on the feedback on spawning behind enemy lines... I'd rather not flirt with that and get another poop storm.
IM STRESSED AS IT ALREADY IS GLFIEJASliawrgj29U
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I can imagine that it's difficult to see how the spawns will turn out until after they get some hardcore testing, especially with the amount of maps we have in the game.
I think giving the teams different zones is a good plan. At the very least it will stop the big issue of having the enemy spawn on your face.
In the long run I'm not sure how I'll feel about splitting the map up into team zones. Feels kinda generic and 'sportsy'. Ideally I'd always like options to spawn in different areas rather than always showing up in North or South (or whatever) of the map. But that's another topic for another day, and the proposed adjusted spawning doesn't have anything I'm overtly up in arms about.
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I think one issue here is that people are not reading the entire thread before posting. Please do so, people.
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Wouldn't that grossly unbalance brawl vs snipe. Combat won't happen in the hot zone because the sniper team is just going to go back into their spawn. Brawl is forced to charge into the enemy spawn. The charge is hard enough already but int he case where each gets one kill, the snipe team is at a humongous advantage due the advantage you pointed out of fighting in your own spawn.
Now concerning the "yelling." I don't think people are so much as unhappy with your spawn system as they are with just spawn systems, specifically that it seems a fix to an unbroken mechanic. I can understand wanting a conversation to be had on how to make your spawn system better but since there was never an acknowledged conversation about whether there should be a spawn system, you're going to get a lot of rage. Imagine we're at a party and you're the host and we're the partiers. You decide to order us pizza but none of us really want that, we worried it would upset the balance of the food already there (some banging barbecue meatballs), and no one can agree on a good pizza. You go ahead and order a pizza with anchovies, olives, and mushrooms. No one likes it and even you admit that the selection of toppings is broken. Sure ordering a new hot pizza, fixed with better toppings, might be better than the previous pizza, but it was still never discussed whether there should be pizza in the first place. Many preferred or at least had no problem with the meatballs. There's gonna be push back.
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- There will never be any spawn limbo since we don't block spawns based on proximity
Is there any chance we could block spawns based on proximity? Relying so heavily on this base system will really help camping and sniping teams. It would be an improvement over what we have now but what about this?
Keep the idea of bases but give each team 2-3 spawning zones (areas of the map with one or more spawn points). If the enemy is in your base one or two spawn zones could potentially be blocked if they're close enough to them and force you to your other spawn zone. If all spawns are blocked change the logic so that you can now pick whatever spawn you want, so if an enemy blocks one zone they could gain an advantage by knowing where you'll come from but if they accidentally block two you can pop right up next to them. This would be a rare occurance but would punish a team for spawn camping without heavily penalizing teams trying to rush down people camping in their own bases.
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Well camping has always been an issue, especially from the start of the match. Sniping ships are difficult to approach on some maps, and always have been. The new spawning system doesn't change that overmuch, although upon death you actually have the option to spawn yourself in a better location to make a run at them.
I think it's kind of balanced, almost, between brawling and sniping. If team A is brawl and B is snipe:
Team B takes pot shots as A gets ready for a push
Team A pushes into B's zone
at this point, one of two things will happen
1.
Team A loses a ship
Team A is forced to respawn at their own zone, far away from the combat
Team B has the advantage
2.
Team B loses a ship
Team B is forced to spawn in their own zone, close to the combat
Team A has the advantage (brawl builds have the advantage in close combat)
Whoever gets that first kill tends to have the upper hand, which is generally how it's always gone. Although that's kind of why I suggested having a secondary spawn point that's not in their own zone. This allows them another location to approach from, making it more difficult to camp a spot. Although that might give the deceased too much of an advantage; and lead to more of both teams spawning in the same area over and over again. (So it's probably best not to include that without giving it some critical thinking.)
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Considering his spawn areas each encompass roughly 2/5ths of the map horizontally the snipe team isn't exactly forced to respawn in close combat.
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CHANGES ARE IN THE DEV APP. EMAIL KEYVIAS@MUSEGAMES.COM IF YOU WANT TO CHECK IT OUT.
We'll try to see if we can get some organized games in this soon.
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Regarding sniping, the old system spawns are very similar to the proposed. You'd just randomly respawn in the recesses of your side of the map and snipe. Now you just choose where exactly you respawn on your side of the map and snipe.
Again, people wanted pizza a while ago but we never ordered one. People ended up shrugging and slowly forgot about their hunger that slowly devoured their own bodies. We then finally had time to order pizza but something happened to the delivery and it arrived cold and was missing some toppings. We've popped it back into the oven and ran out to get the missing topping.
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Bacon or death.
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(http://www.gunsoficarus.com/files/fuckingMap.png)
Check out the file name of that map. http://www.gunsoficarus.com/files/fuckingMap.png
Am I allowed to be offended? Clearly this is a hot-button issue, tensions are high, but judging by the name selected by awkm for that image, I feel like I'm being told to "F" off.
Not very professional, in my opinion. Not at all.
If the pizza guy showed up 30 minutes late with a cold pizza and the wrong toppings, then told me "here's your effing pizza" I probably wouldn't pay for that pizza, I'd probably call his manager and get him fired.
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Maybe some people may have wanted pizza a while ago, but I also think far more people just wanted the meatballs to be a bit better. Then steadily over time people stopped caring about pizza and decided to pine for some better meatballs. So I still fail to see the point of ordering pizza when people don't want pizza anymore.
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Can I have steak?
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Stay on topic please. You are allowed to be offended about anything, but keep it out of this thread.
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We never knew about meatballs. How about if we give you a meatball pizza?
What are the meatballs, seriously? You know how much I like metaphors but I'd like to incorporate that piece of feedback if possible. No, meatballs will not rain from the sky.
Nor will you find steak on the Pyramidion.
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Meatballs represent the random spawn system.
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To those that say we the party guests never asked for pizza, I feel that's not the case for everybody. For me, it's more of I started to get cravings for pizza (before this patch, I have gradually came to dislike the old spawning system due to quite a few matches in DM decided by lucky spawns), but never outright asked for them. So when the host decided to surprise us with pizza, it's a step in a right direction, and I appreciate the host's efforts in trying to make it into a better party. Now yes, the pizza is cold and missing a few meat toppings, but new pizza's are coming in hot with the bacon and without the odd pineapples, thank you every much.
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If your Pizza sucks upon delivery, you don't use that Pizza place again.. You have to remember you have a large population that only comes back on large updates to see how the newest patch is. If they are dissatisfied, you lost that crowd til the next major patch.
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That's why I prefer dijornos
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Fuuuu... okay forget about meatballs for a second. We had a pizza (old spawn) and people wanted a pizza with toppings, maybe even a cheese filled crust. Delivery, delivery messed up, we're putting the pie back in the oven. Done.
Here are some more examples of what's going on in other maps:
Scrap on the Dunes
(http://gunsoficarus.com/files/fuckingMap2.png)
Canyons
Sorry, not pretty anymore. Top and bottom are teams. There are no initial spawns so randomly selected of the bottom and top. The two gray dots are neutral so both teams can spawn there after death. I've heard both good and bad things about it. Good that is helps blue push north more easily. Bad because it allows people to spawn behind you and etc... Maybe i'll just make the two middle ones eitehr all blue, all red, or one red one blue? Any thoughts?
(http://gunsoficarus.com/files/MeatballFuckingPizzaMap.png)
Fjords
Another hotly contested map. It skews heavily towards the right because there's actually not too much room on the west for players to move into. I might think about cutting out the west part of the map a little bit to make the map more square. For this patch, I will only touch spawns so don't worry abotu the map bounds changing any time soon. Just wanted to put it out there.
Blue and red dots are initial spawns. 3v3 is similar.
(http://gunsoficarus.com/files/fuckingPizzaMaplulz.png)
@chango
Well, that certainly doesn't make our lives easy now does it? We do realize that and yeah, it's always a gamble. Oh well.
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Please don't cut out parts of the fjords map.
What if spawn choices were random, as you could only choose half of them at any time.
Sounds like a meatball pizza to me.
Is there definitely no chance for proximity to shut down spawn points?
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Proximity and randomized subset are both options but will not make it in for hot fix. We'll surely keep it mind, though.
No cutting for now, but if it's a core part of gameplay I'll need to reevaluate the hot zones and scrimmages to make it more balanced. Maybe it's balanced the way it already is. These things matter most for competitive play and you know Muse has no business in competitive leagues :P Any comment on how the west is used in competitive. I saw snipe camping up there a while back.
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It's a very risky place to snipe from and also has a back door to the base via the south. I think it adds to the richness of available strategies on the map.
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i also vote no to cutting up fjords
is that scrap in the dev app like that i would love to test that out
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Stop that pizzametaphor, I'm just getting hungry. Btw I prefer Steak grilled on the barrel of a carronade, with the smell of gunpowder after an intense battle in the mountains of the angleans, thats how real men eat their steak.
I hated this System from the very beginning. I started GoI yesterday, totally unaware of the update and it's contents. I started a game with and against some guys I didn't know. We killed one, and I was going for the other ship, thinking that I got all the time in the world. You could imagine what happened. That’s the point the most of us got, many tactics are useless now or getting you into unexpected big trouble. We all worked hard on our skills, as someone said before. We LOVE new stuff, but this is a change in the main gameplay, not an addition. Nobody likes to see his skills being useless, especially as a captain. You said before that its now easier for less experienced crews and captains to kill a better one. Thats right and thats the major thing I would complain about. We all developed ideas how to deal with every possible enemy loadout and now... but we heard enough about the update, hotfix is coming and one of the best parts of this game are the devs and their handling of the players. Thumbs up to the community as well.
Everything you are working on is for the improvement of the game AND for the adventure mode, right? We all remember the idea of two towns, two quests, one have to carry the sheep to another town, one is send out on a raid etc. The idea of two bases (directions from where you started) fits perfectly into this. We, the experienced players, have to change our tactics now to fit into the gameplay and with the bases there isn’t so much difference to the meatballs at all.
But never let an not well-tested update be released again. I never heard about the dev app before, but sorry, thats not my fault. Just write a few times “join dev app if you love us!” in the globechat ore sth like that ;)
This is the best game I played so far and in my homeland we got a proverb that says: who climbs high can fall deep. We didn't expect something like that.
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@Hekkthor
Yes, you're right. This should have never been released. However, due to several complications surrounding the implementation of this and the testing this past month... it was too late to pull when we found the bugs.
We're in the process of getting more thorough testing and creating stringent rules and quality tests to ensure that if features need to be pulled, they can be.
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And also
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/0c05b12867066a621ff0b9ca41c76880/tumblr_msb5sz1pq51rnfnhpo1_500.jpg)
We try.
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hehe, yes
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Here is my vote for the canyon: delete the grey spawns, based on the structure of the map they dont fit into the base system with the hot zone.
There is no tactical need for the spawn at D3, you can go there sneaky from D2 if you know how ;)
Same for the one at B3, its easy to reach from the spawn at b1, also the way to b3 is nearly always covered with clouds. It only makes the game faster => less coordination => less value of a death
That was always something I loved about this game. You dont want to die, and you are trying everything thats possible to stay alive. A faster gameplay doesnt mean more action. just more deaths and I dont want to get used to that. You stated that you want to prevent 5-0 in general, but based on the arguments already written and the fact that this is a game where you can only win with skills and coordination, 5-0s only shows the superiority of the enemy.
But there is one question now: How can you attract new players with this concept? Do you want to improve the experience for the new players? I have no clue how a new player is thinking about this.
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You guys do great things also :D I've been playing this game over a year and have had a great time with it. This is the first patch that made me a little silly. I think all the pizza talk made me a hungry grump.
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I really feel being able to spawn on an enemies backside a really limiting and detrimental factor in this choosing spawns malarkey. There should be implemented a system where if you are within I dont know around 600 metres of the opponent you cannot spawn in that grid because the proximity to enemies is too great. If in fjords for example if Blue are camping Red's Spawns then it defaults to a tertiary neutral spawn.
In terms of Raid on the Refinery or any crazy king, it killed the game. Being able to spawn 15 seconds away from the point in contest having just died means that the point can never be recaptured once a team has it. Because try wiping an entire team and capturing a point in 15 seconds from the first death on the opposing team. Yah, its not going to happen. Choosing spawns in this situation ruined that experience on those maps for me. In this situation spawns should be chosen from 3 spawns at least 1.5k away from the contested point otherwise there is no point playing that gamemode since it comes down to first team there that wins the initial engagement wins GG with no ability to fight at a point at contest well.
Edit: Sorry this really riled me up. I love the game and the development, but this patch... Most certainly should not have gone past dev stage.
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@Feast
All fixed. Hot fix is coming next week.
@hekkthor
Will probably delete. Actually have lines of scrimmage. We'll see as more people test in Dev App the next coming day or two. Final fixes must go in Friday.
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Damn so Friday Night would be too late for testing?
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Awkm I would like to thank you for getting back to all of us so quickly.
I know it seems we are angry and yelling at cross purposes and you are handling the complaining very well all things considered when larger companies would be yelling back by now.
Just know that the reason we are angry is the real love and time we have all invested in your team's vision, many of us have been here from the very start and really want to see it do well for a long time to come.
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had a fun little glitch today. we died, our captain picked a spawn point where some fighting was happening and we didn't spawn behind the enemy, oh no, we spawned below them. we spawned under the map. i can only imagine the terror of seeing a hwachafish rising out of the earth to blast you at close range.
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What about if the timer before you can spawn is increased to something like 20-30 seconds? That way the ship that got the kill has the ability to repair, reposition and prepare for next combat (just like before), and the respawning ship still gets to experience the tactical element of spawn choice. The draw back is obviously that you have to sit and wait an extra 20 seconds, but you cut down on the rediculous cross-map commutes with your spawn choice, so it would cancel out
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Awkm I would like to thank you for getting back to all of us so quickly.
I know it seems we are angry and yelling at cross purposes and you are handling the complaining very well all things considered when larger companies would be yelling back by now.
Just know that the reason we are angry is the real love and time we have all invested in your team's vision, many of us have been here from the very start and really want to see it do well for a long time to come.
No no no. Larger companies would be stonewalling or brushing off concerns with a generic response. Awkm's response to the community has been absolutely amazing. Prompt, frequent, respectful, informative, and you know... existent. That he has been proactive in telling us what the plan is, what the time table is, and has both asked for suggestions and responded to those offered up gives me incredible hope for the future of this game.
Making games is hard. Making gameplay decisions is harder. So far, every suggestion I've seen has had some issue with it, which leads me to the conclusion that there is no perfect decision. The game designers actually have to weigh pros and cons and try to make the decision they think is best for the game overall. So keep up the feedback to help them get the data they need to make a better decision.
Personally, I like the idea of bases and lines of scrimmage. However, I don't feel experienced or qualified enough to offer insight beyond that, so carry on.
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We all have to remember we care about this game and it's success. All I can say is we just got frustrated because you shipped out a feature with minimal testing that no one asked for, under the pretense that we wanted it in a vaguely obscure distant past. All we wanted was better starting spawns at dunes and fjords, we were quite vocal on that. I never saw a thread about random chosen spawns from any player. We just want you to leave major game changing...changes in the dev app longer. Not enough testers isn't a good enough excuse, if it isn't tested you don't just ship it anyway, you give it more time. You can't blame us for that, we aren't the developer, we're the consumer.
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The game has been updateing almost like an MMO. Ide pay for another copy just for the sake of supporting Muse.
But then again this is another bump in the road that we are trying to test out and balance out.
How things stands, a longer spawning timer is actualy beneficial if they get to choose spawns.
In a more complex way you can add different timers to different spawns. But still 15-40 seconds
In its most simple method, the dev app spawn changes that we tested out recently is defenite improvement. The fjords spawn were nice, the dual at dawn spawns were interresting. Canyons was sort of the same. etc etc.
But what i can say is that this Tech could be used for something more like Crazy King or King of the hilll (Please consider making capturing a bit more fun and responcive)
Deathmatch is not really the best match type to allow spawning.
Because in DEATHMATCH dying or killing is the best or worst thing that can happen while Crazy King and or king of the hill is more of a "how can we get the point" type of match.
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@crafeksterty
Try our CK and KOTH maps on dev app. For CK, the general idea is that each team has side of of the map and therefore has easier access to a portion of the points. Each team is also very far from at least one of the points.
As far as capturing goes, there are a lot of designs floating around but we don't know when we can get to them—one of the engineers left. Hopefully the spawn will naturally improve them. I'll evaluate it after the fixes go live. If it needs work, I'll make sure to prioritize it.
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The system isnt really benefitial for a crazy king game mode.
You can just die on purpose short before the point changes and then rush for the new point before the enemy can get there.
Imo its sort of a abuse of the spawning system. With old spawns you couldnt do this cause of the possibility to get a bad spawn.
@akwm
Not tested in dev app yet, just some quick thoughts.
But then the points have to be designed in a certain way to not be unfair.
First point must always be the middle point where both sides can rush in the same amount of time to.
Second spawn will surely be on one side but the third must be on the opponents side.
Same goes for fourth and fifth.
Else the sides are unbalanced cause the side with the first spawns on its side can just rush that point and be faster at all points on their side while the enemy can watch them capture one point after another.
And yes this is a optimal situation for one side and a horrible for the other but thats what it could lead to.
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Actually, I disagree completely with choosing close spawns being OK on CP. I am sure the hotfix will improve things, but currently, CP matches are terrible. I did not mind the deathmatch ones because you could still use a strategy to win. However, I was in several 3v3 CK matches last night and they were simply frustrating. Whoever gets to the point first always wins that point. There was no turnover. Once a team claimed a point, it was best to just move on to the next one and wait. I was not on a low skill team either. Two of our ships bristled with 7-10 level players, while the third was mid level. The other team had two good ships, and one first day pilot and crew on a poorly equipped Mobula. We ended up losing that match, even though we killed all three ships over and over, and suffered no deaths on our ship at all. Hell, I was not even doing anything most of the game as engineer on a Pyramidian. We just kept killing everything that came to the point. When the time came to start heading to the next point, the other good captains would just let their ships die, and spawn at the next point while the Mobula drifted aimlessly around the active point. Even the Galleon could get back to the point before we could kill the Squid.
I'll try to get on dev app soon to test some of the fixes out.
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there no way to fix how bad the cp's are at this stage from what i can se they will never be fair
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Things I can touch before hot fix:
- Position of spawns
- Number of spawns
- Spawn team assignment (both, red only, blue only)
- Time it takes to capture point
The spawns on CK and KOTH are greatly improved in dev app.
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there no way to fix how bad the cp's are at this stage from what i can se they will never be fair
I know this is a quite off topic, but one of the issues with capturing the points is the ability to block is very powerful if you already own the point. As long as you can get someone from your team to the point fast enough, they will never neutralise/capture it.
Perhaps if you die next to the point which you own, it "damages" the point by 30% or something (as in, instantly reduces the capture ring), allowing for a quicker neutralisation and thus, capture. This may allow much more changeover.
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@Xyem
Yeah, getting someone off the point is a part of a my proposed redesigns. Emphasis on getting someone off.
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Effective harpoons confirmed
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Capturing points has always been pretty tricky. Usually whichever team gets their first ends up holding it long enough to get more points than the other team can. I'm pretty sure I remember reading that the time it takes to flip a point has been reduced for the new spawn points, which is pretty good since they used to take forever and a day anyways; but letting them spawn closer lets them get their faster to neutralize the flip, and you're back where you started.
One simple solution might be to just make the capture area smaller. Then they have to fight harder to maintain control of the zone, instead of having a large area to contest in. Then along with faster flips and being able to spawn closer, you can get a point that changes hands a few times if teams don't work hard to actually hold it.
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Have you ever tested a very very short capture time, like only a few seconds? Maybe even just one second. That would change the dynamic from 'Capture the point' to 'Stay on the point'. Drift off for a few seconds, and the other team can grab it and start getting points. Might be a very terrible idea, or more fun.
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there no way to fix how bad the cp's are at this stage from what i can se they will never be fair
I know this is a quite off topic, but one of the issues with capturing the points is the ability to block is very powerful if you already own the point. As long as you can get someone from your team to the point fast enough, they will never neutralise/capture it.
Perhaps if you die next to the point which you own, it "damages" the point by 30% or something (as in, instantly reduces the capture ring), allowing for a quicker neutralisation and thus, capture. This may allow much more changeover.
Suicide shortcuts have always existed in CK maps, especially Flayed Hills where the respawn points were in the middle of the map so you could get a head start on the next point by dying and respawning halfway there. The ability to choose your respawn location just made the suicide shortcut strategy more obvious. The only way I can see to reduce this shortcut is to increase the respawn times and cluster the spawn points (what awkm said above) so that a team is only close to one point.
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I haven't had a chance to get on cp maps much so take this opinion with a grain of salt but conceptually I think longer spawn times would be needed in cp maps, if people are spawning closer due to the new system.
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Regarding spawn times and capture times, I'm not too worried about those because can be easily tweaked without hot fixes. I can accept suggestions on those as more people get to play them.
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Alright, really don't have the luxury of time to read through all these posts so I'l just post my suggestion. From what I could gather from the dev app you guys are trying to make only the spawn points in the middle of the map and the ones close to the team's starting spawn available. This could in my eyes lead to very heavy camping, more so than usual. Instead what I think could be done is keep the spawn points all over the map active, except for those within a certain radius of an enemy vessel. The ideal length of this radius in my mind should be the same length as 1 square of the current map-grid. This way you can chose between spawn points all around the map, and they will spawn far enough away so the other team has a chance to react. And using each individual map-grid as the spawn length will compensate for the smaller maps.
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@NorwegianWolf
Well I guess there might be a month and half worth of camping then. The proximity detection on top of spawn choosing is a feature request that cannot be put into a hot fix.
Although sniping is not guaranteed. I will evaluate how it goes over the course of the month and see how to rectify. However, I don't think it will be an epidemic of camping. In the previous version, you could also camp on your side of the map. Now, you just choose where exactly you spawn on your side of the map. We'll see.
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I haven't tried this out yet (busy week, will try it out this weekend) but if you honestly give it a month, it'll turn into an epidemic of camping. Sure you could camp before, but you couldn't choose to spawn somewhere advantageous. Now it's a sure thing if you hang in your base vs those trying to kill you out of theirs.
You seem to have the base idea down but the logic isn't there. Why would I move to a hot zone knowing I can hang it out near my base for guaranteed spawns in case something goes wrong? The only people going over there are those who don't know any better, or know the other team is worthless.
This needs some logic for the attacking team. If you successfully attack the enemy base, then you should get partial control, and earn a spawn closer or in their base. Otherwise there is no incentive for me to go in there.
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Yeah at least disable the spawns near the enemy even if they are in "your" zone.
I totally dont see why you could spawn anywhere near a fight after you died.
The advantage you get from this is extreme. There is no reason to give the enemy that advantage when you can just sit in your base.
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@Zill
Too bad I can't do that right now. So yeah, 1.5 months of camping it is then.
Completely open spawns in all regions of the map clearly didn't work so we're at forming lines of scrimmage. The next pass can be exactly your idea, Zill. As your team pushes forward, you push your line of scrimmage just like in American football.
The only problem is that this is positive reinforcement cycle and we don't have a ball that the defending team can kick and reestablish their ground. Will think more on. Plenty of time to do so anyway :P
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Again, any big logic changes cannot happen for next week.
We have to deal with what is coming in the hot fix. I can, however, push the ideas and have try to get an engineer assigned to it next patch.
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Well my point was mostly, you're just poisoning yourself, either by doing nothing, or putting in the new bit. You seemed to of picked your preferred one though and I'll leave it at that. Hopefully in 1.5 months we can get something going.
Nice to know we were on the same wavelength for the future at least.
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@zill
Whatever I do at this point, I'm just screwed anyway. So yeah.
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Hypathetically, if you put out your base/scrimmage system and people still complain, will you give up on the spawn choosing system?
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Wasn't expecting any big changes in such a short amount of time anyway. As it is now the game is like a clay statue. We give our thoughts on what curves will give the most beautiful statue, and you evaluate which one is best. With this community we have it is going to be a masterpiece I'm sure. ;)
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Hypathetically, if you put out your base/scrimmage system and people still complain, will you give up on the spawn choosing system?
I doubt they will. I like choice honestly, just it needs to be put in right, which is very much a work in progress.
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I personally like choosing so I'm going to work on it.
An idea you will all probably hate. In DM, you can only score kills when you cross your line of scrimmage hahahahahahaha.
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that kind of reminds me of when I was young playing CTF in gym.... good times.....would be an interesting game-type for sure.... maybe something for the future.... but not for DM :P
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I can't say whether it will lead to a lot of camping or not. It'd be nice to get a lot of people in the dev app and give it some good hard testing, although I know it's not the easiest thing in the world to actually gather people up for that.
Base spawning is a good way to prevent players from constantly spawning on each other's face, which has been the biggest complaint by far. As for camping, you've always been able to camp. Even when the spawns were random, each team seemed to have a preferred spawning area. Now you can just choose where in your zone you spawn. Currently the choices have been toned down, so instead of 10 options, you have about 3 or 4.
If you both decide to get into a lengthy sniping match, well; that's your decision. It's risky for both teams, since the enemy has a pretty good idea of where you're going to spawn. Though generally they'll have to move further from their zone to make use of that information. If one team tries to camp and snipe, and the other team has a brawler, getting into the enemy zone is a huge advantage. They have very little choice but to spawn relatively close. Since the defeated doesn't choose their ship orientation, this can be a huge disadvantage. Your enemy, especially in the competitive scene, knows your spawn points, and has a fairly good idea of what you think is going to be a good spot to spawn. You make your choice and suddenly you're under attack again.
It's going to require smarter decisions than 'I wanna be as close as possible'. I've already seen this decision backfiring on players in the current system.
For proximity based spawning, which a lot of players are asking for: I feel that it may give the first killing team to much of an edge. Suddenly a spawn point or two aren't viable, forcing the team to one of the remaining spots; giving the enemy a much better idea of where you're going to pop up. The entire system will have to be done over again. It'd likely turn into something closer to what we have now, with spawn points all over and not just in zones. And players are still going to try and spawn as close as possible, often going for a spot that lets them hit a flank or blind spot. It won't be constant endless combat around the same spawn point, but it won't be too much different than that.
Really players should try out the dev app, check out the spawns. Get some real matches going to get a feel of what strategies will and won't work. Theory is all fine and dandy, but it's difficult to predict how it will turn out. What if your spawn is in a cloudy and crowded area, making it harder to camp? What if you can't see the enemies zone, or have a lot of places they could push into your zone from?
Essentially if we can find good spots for team spawns, we can prevent or reduce the amount of issues we have. It's a good system, we all like having a choice and not needing to rely on blind luck for how the match is going to turn out; it just needs some tweaking.
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I personally like choosing so I'm going to work on it.
So there's no chance of having meatballs again?
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I don't even know what meatballs are anymore...
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I don't even know what meatballs are anymore...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/meatballswithtomatos_74759
yum yum.....
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What advantages did random spawning have over user selected spawns?
I think for the most part we like having a choice, since the random spawn was a fickle mistress, sometimes putting us in ideal locations, and sometimes completely boning us (in a bad way). It's painfully clear we don't like enemies spawning on top of us after having just killed them, but that wasn't a goal of the system, just an unintended side effect that's on it's way to being fixed (and it would be fantastic for players to join the dev app and help in that discussions. The more input the better).
Random spawns had the issue of being a little unfair at times. It's like playing a combat game and every time you lost a round you'd roll some dice to see how much health you started up the next round with. You might get 200% or 50%, and that change could effect the outcome of the whole game; something you have 0 control over.
User spawns addresses that by giving players a choice of where to spawn. It makes the game a little more tactical, especially when the little issues are hammered out. Do you spawn near your enemy to race back to your ally? Do you spawn across the map to attack from a better direction? Maybe you choose to spawn not too far away behind some terrain, letting your ally pull them into an ambush. It's not always guaranteed to work, but it's not always guaranteed to fail either. Maybe you won't make it back to your ally and you'll die as well, perhaps they'll head across a map the regroup thinking your're going to spawn near them, and run into you all alone. Maybe they'll figure out it's a trap and not follow your ally into that ambush. The luck factor is gone, it's all about the decisions you make in response to a situation.
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Well at this point in time the current system is worse than random spawns. The base system will likely fix most of the issues, but I'm just saying, the option is always there for randomness should the base idea fail.
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What advantages did random spawning have over user selected spawns?
I think for the most part we like having a choice, since the random spawn was a fickle mistress, sometimes putting us in ideal locations, and sometimes completely boning us (in a bad way). It's painfully clear we don't like enemies spawning on top of us after having just killed them, but that wasn't a goal of the system, just an unintended side effect that's on it's way to being fixed (and it would be fantastic for players to join the dev app and help in that discussions. The more input the better).
An enemy lucky spawn is always more detrimental than a friendly unlucky spawn. With chosen spawns, the enemy will always get their best spawn thus causing every spawn to be unfun.
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If the enemy always get the best spawn, so do you.
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Changes are final on Dev App. You can preview the changes over the weekend before the hot fix lands on Monday. We can start fresh the feedback as we move forward.
If you play on dev app this weekend, please contain your comments to the proper dev app forum thread and not here. For organization and my sanity.
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Never said it was unfair, I was saying it less fun.
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@Sammy BT
Yeah, sorry. We're stamping out stomping in every place it comes up. Enjoy spawning behind your enemies while it lasts!!!
You'll be able to decimate (or at least try) the AI in Co-op Mode though.
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Even with proximity restrictions, the enemy is still getting their "luckiest spawn." The camping game is about to get ridiculous.
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To reduce the camping maybe each team could have up to 15 or more spawn locations across the map, but you only get 3 or 4 to choose from on respawn based on either where your 'base' is, where the enemy is (in a push forward canyons map), where the active point is and/or maybe a bit of randomness thrown in.
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I think we should wait and see how the new system changes things before we start pushing further down the line. An interesting a complex respawn system with shifting spawn points could be amazing, but it might not be worth the work involved to make it happen.
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Whatever I do at this point, I'm just screwed anyway. So yeah.
What about removing this feature from production until it's not broken? Why is that not an option?
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As awkm said, it's not a simple fix to bring back the old system. A lot of functionality and UI changed.
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For certain maps, have you considered a checkerboard spawn area layout instead of 'this side-that side' scrimmage?
Such as:
(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/521/i8u2.jpg)
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That example wouldn't solve any of the current issues.
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First I have to say, I love the spawn points idea, i hope to see it flushed out.
Now to business.... This may have been mentioned, discussed, and shot down already... but what about having the spawn points function with a timer?
for Example... Team A has a Pyra (P) and Galleon (G). Team B has a Junker (J) and a Squid (S).
Brawl begins. J is downed by Team A, he now has a choice of where to spawn. He decides to spawn as close to the battle as possible, meaning for 1 min that spawn point cannot be used by either team. Upon returning Team B kills P, who now has to spawn farther away, but Team A follows by killing S.
Heres the dynamic, now J and G are left alone duking it out, and both Teams have to decide if they are going to regroup somewhere else, or if they are going to try to hold for the calvary.
I could see it dealing with the meat grinder that happens more in most matches.
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Yeah the new system is great because you can get back in the action quicker and it helps prevent randomly spawning next to an enemy (although now you have the option to!).
Would I'd prefer is to spawn further away from the action. Although this game is all about intense, fast (not in terms of how long it takes :P) battles, I'd prefer a bit more realism: after your destruction the new ship has to enter the airspace from a nearby port. That kind of thing.
One issue: if you forget to spawn. I kept forgetting, so we were out of action for a good 20 seconds before I realised I had to select a spawn point. Maybe automatically select the closest one after 15-20 secs?
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topic closed, new one opened here
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3066.new.html#new