GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2

[Echoez]

But Carronades are already easy to use and pretty effective at that. Or is this some sort of joke I didn't understand?..

Also I will try the new Banshee, had it used against me on my Junker in a match last time and it was pretty effective at keeping people busy.

[Surette]

But Carronades are already easy to use and pretty effective at that. Or is this some sort of joke I didn't understand?..

Carronades recently had a nerf in which their downward arc was heavily reduced, which allowed for a ship to camp high above an enemy while continuously taking their balloon, effectively preventing the enemy from doing anything except ramming into the ground. There's been some debate on the carronade since then -- on one hand, carronades are meant to target balloons, so it makes sense you'd be able to aim down from above; on the other hand, it was a little unfair how easy it was to cripple an enemy ship once you got into position. Now that the change has been out for a while, I'm okay with the update. It's still very possible to take out enemy balloons, just not quite as easy to totally cripple them.

[Echoez]

But Carronades are already easy to use and pretty effective at that. Or is this some sort of joke I didn't understand?..

Carronades recently had a nerf in which their downward arc was heavily reduced, which allowed for a ship to camp high above an enemy while continuously taking their balloon, effectively preventing the enemy from doing anything except ramming into the ground. There's been some debate on the carronade since then -- on one hand, carronades are meant to target balloons, so it makes sense you'd be able to aim down from above; on the other hand, it was a little unfair how easy it was to cripple an enemy ship once you got into position. Now that the change has been out for a while, I'm okay with the update. It's still very possible to take out enemy balloons, just not quite as easy to totally cripple them.

Ah, thanks for the info c:

Still, I think they are fine as is, they do considerable damage and you can still keep their balloon popped if you try a bit. Blanderfish is extremely effective with it if you also bring a Buffgineer on it to keep it buffed most of the time.

[Captain Smollett]

Carronades used to offer a pretty nice alternative to the straight out killing meta.

While they still work for this role to some degree, the increased difficulty for balloon locks makes them both unappealing for competitive and casual play generally speaking.

My thoughts are that due to their change they've seen a lot less use and it has narrowed the strategies commonly seen in play.  I'm just an advocate for deeper and more varied viable gameplay.  Muse has made more than enough weapons to achieve this, it's just about tweaking their balance ever so slightly so they are all viable; certainly not an easy task, but not insurmountable for the mighty awkm.

[Ofiach]

I actually have been using carronades as a disable/hullcrush weapon for the ramming achievements. Dual carro Pyra with greased rounds can do alot of hull damage, along with engine crippling. Not exactly "meta" but still fun.

[HamsterIV]

In the past I have likened a good Blenderfish vs Galleon fight to bull riding, where the Blenderfish is the cowboy and the Galleon is the bull. The galleon is slow but just needs to a few seconds of inattention to gore the other guy. The blender fish has to be constantly adjusting and repositioning to stay in the safe area where his guns can hit but the Galleons guns can not. The patch just made that safe area smaller. To torture the metaphor, the bull can still be ridden but it is much harder since Awkm put grease on the reigns.

[awkm]

In the past I have likened a good Blenderfish vs Galleon fight to bull riding, where the Blenderfish is the cowboy and the Galleon is the bull. The galleon is slow but just needs to a few seconds of inattention to gore the other guy. The blender fish has to be constantly adjusting and repositioning to stay in the safe area where his guns can hit but the Galleons guns can not. The patch just made that safe area smaller. To torture the metaphor, the bull can still be ridden but it is much harder since Awkm put grease on the reigns.

I am a fan of metaphors.  Well done.

[NikolaiLev]

In the past I have likened a good Blenderfish vs Galleon fight to bull riding, where the Blenderfish is the cowboy and the Galleon is the bull. The galleon is slow but just needs to a few seconds of inattention to gore the other guy. The blender fish has to be constantly adjusting and repositioning to stay in the safe area where his guns can hit but the Galleons guns can not. The patch just made that safe area smaller. To torture the metaphor, the bull can still be ridden but it is much harder since Awkm put grease on the reigns.

I'm shocked that no one's figured out what Chute Vent is for.

Seriously.  Not only does it completely eliminate the problems caused by the nerf, it gives the added benefit of allowing the maneuver I've affectionately dubbed the "Chaos Dunk," in which you pop a balloon, position yourself above the enemy ship, and smash him into the ground repeatedly using Impact Bumpers and Chute Vent.

The Carronade might be dependent on a pilot tool, but I think the nerf was warranted.  Could carronades use buffs elsewhere to compensate for the nerf?  Perhaps.  But I really like that adjustment, as it allows a lot of counterplay.  I'd be loathe to see that nerf reverted, instead of trying another way to buff the carronade.

[Sammy B. T.]

I play a very physical blenderfish and chute vent is definitely one of the main factors contributing to its success.

[HamsterIV]

The bull fighting metaphor refereed to that sweet spot on a galleon's where you are parallel/slightly above the balloon and too close for the side guns to elevate high enough to engage you. Chute venting from that location will put your ship in reach of the galleon's guns, which is less than desirable. I guess if you want to take the metaphor a bit more literally the goldfish could actually sit on the galleon and apply ram damage.

[Plasmarobo]

In the past I have likened a good Blenderfish vs Galleon fight to bull riding, where the Blenderfish is the cowboy and the Galleon is the bull. The galleon is slow but just needs to a few seconds of inattention to gore the other guy. The blender fish has to be constantly adjusting and repositioning to stay in the safe area where his guns can hit but the Galleons guns can not. The patch just made that safe area smaller. To torture the metaphor, the bull can still be ridden but it is much harder since Awkm put grease on the reigns.

I'm shocked that no one's figured out what Chute Vent is for.

Seriously.  Not only does it completely eliminate the problems caused by the nerf, it gives the added benefit of allowing the maneuver I've affectionately dubbed the "Chaos Dunk," in which you pop a balloon, position yourself above the enemy ship, and smash him into the ground repeatedly using Impact Bumpers and Chute Vent.

The Carronade might be dependent on a pilot tool, but I think the nerf was warranted.  Could carronades use buffs elsewhere to compensate for the nerf?  Perhaps.  But I really like that adjustment, as it allows a lot of counterplay.  I'd be loathe to see that nerf reverted, instead of trying another way to buff the carronade.

The term I've heard most for this is "Teabag of destiny". Mighta been Ofiach.


But Hamster, I think that's the point. The the balloon down, and then literally body-slam the damaged balloon from above (pinning them into the ground for bonus damage).
I like the new Carronade, it makes for more positioning. Position to me means more interesting game.

[Ailen]

Mercury is being buffed next patch... WAIT, WAT? It's a really powerfull weapon, as all the tournamnets were won by 3/4 merc build. There is no need in buffing it, even the nerf might be needed.

[Queso]

I would agree that if it gets the penetration buff it should do basically nothing to actual hull health. On the flip side I'd like to see some explosive do a bit more armor damage and a bit less permahull damage so piercing becomes less of a necessity and more a specialized tool.

[Imagine]

As a note, this thread is Balance for 1.2, not 1.3.

[Queso]

I do suppose we are getting ahead of ourselves.