GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2

[N-Sunderland]

Gunners are useless on the Junker whether anybody has a hwachafish or not (somebody from MNS'll probably come to argue that ). If your ship has a gat, you'll have loads and loads of time to take their hwacha down during reloads. Not to mention that the hwacha doesn't do enough armour damage for a ram to be effective.

[Captain Smollett]

Part of this game is adapting to what your opponent brings but to be honest there hasn't been much purpose for a gunner regardless on my Junker for a while.

Don't forget that a Junker excels at dodging. Chute vent, buffed balloon or kerosene easily allow you to dodge most of the hwacha at range. Assuming you have a chaingun on your broadside, any chaingunner worth their salt will shoot out the manticore before it gets close enough to cripple you.  As for ambushing, it doesn't really matter what they're shooting with if you let them sneak up behind you; giving any opponent that much advantage is usually a death.sentence.

Disabling weapons are always the toughest to deal with when you're new since it's rare for new pilots to have a crew organized enough to quickly deal with it.

[Charlemagne Montigue]

Part of this game is adapting to what your opponent brings but to be honest there hasn't been much purpose for a gunner regardless on my Junker for a while.

Don't forget that a Junker excels at dodging. Chute vent, buffed balloon or kerosene easily allow you to dodge most of the hwacha at range. Assuming you have a chaingun on your broadside, any chaingunner worth their salt will shoot out the manticore before it gets close enough to cripple you.  As for ambushing, it doesn't really matter what they're shooting with if you let them sneak up behind you; giving any opponent that much advantage is usually a death.sentence.

Disabling weapons are always the toughest to deal with when you're new since it's rare for new pilots to have a crew organized enough to quickly deal with it.

Our pilot is pretty good for how new he is. It seems as though we will just need to practice disabling the Hwachas ASAP, like you said adaptation is key. I think if we can get killing Hwachas down, then we will be a force to be reckoned with. I'll also have to convince the gunners in the group I play with, that they need to look into putting down the guns, and picking up a wrench.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Gunners are useless on the Junker whether anybody has a hwachafish or not (somebody from MNS'll probably come to argue that ). If your ship has a gat, you'll have loads and loads of time to take their hwacha down during reloads. Not to mention that the hwacha doesn't do enough armour damage for a ram to be effective.

You guys really ask for it sometimes don't you? We also know where this argument goes, therefore I'll simply say gunners are not useless on any ship.

[Charlemagne Montigue]

You guys really ask for it sometimes don't you? We also know where this argument goes, therefore I'll simply say gunners are not useless on any ship.

Well of course the gunners are never useless, they fill their niche. But I think currently it does seem that for many ships the 1 captain 3 engineer load out is simply better. With engineer being able to have one type of special type of ammo, there really aren't that many benefits to being a gunner. The gunner does have the advantage of being able to change ammo given the situation, however this rarely as valuable as having an individual engineer for the balloon, hull, and guns. When a your ship gets hit with a good hwacha barrage, having that extra engineer to help get everything back online is nice. I don't want to start a flame war here, this is simply constructive criticism from personal experience.

[Shinkurex]

There is already a discussion about the gunners usefulness here:

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,410.msg6390.html#msg6390

Let's please stay on topic about guns balance on this thread.

Thanks,
~Shink

[NikolaiLev]

Yah, one thing I keep seeing over and over again that is becoming a problem are goldfish with hwachas on the front. So many matches I play, goldfish just charge straight at you, hit with hwachas to cripple you and then ram for hull damage. If they are using any kind of teamwork, the other teammate just hits you with some kind of hull damage/armor penetrating combo. This hwacha/ramming combo to completely disable a ship is just getting old, i could possibly see it as a last ditch effort, but no, it's become a main strategy. Especially paired with the goldfish, because it is kind of the medium ship, it can out speed most ships so avoiding it is nigh impossible. And even if you were to try and maneuver, if they get any where near you, your finished because hwacha disables everything in one shot. All of your engines or an entire side of you ships guns.

Enough ranting.

Hwacha needs to be balanced, there is a reason just about every ship that has heavy weapons is laden with them.
Perhaps less splash damage, could help, so that the entire side of your ship or all of your engines don't get knocked out immediately unless the rockets actually hit these things.

The Hwacha is balanced.  It's hilariously ineffective as a lone weapon, because it deals pathetic damage to armor.  A Hwacha + Ram combo will not be getting through any armor unless it's a Squid, maybe a Goldfish.

It has horrible sustained presence.  Its disabling capability is countered by having competent engineers with Spanners.

Any ship with a Hwacha will lack that much lethality.  And Hwachas are just as vulnerable to being disabled; Artemises and Mercuries can do this at a greater range.

It has drawbacks, it has counters; it's balanced.  The only reason it's common is because it's easy to use.

[HamsterIV]

The main thing that is OP about the situation Charlemagne describes is the teamwork aspect, not the gun itself. I have flown double gat Pyra with an Hwacha fish ally and we got kills very quickly. Individually our ships are not very powerful but working together we represent a major threat. The same could be said about any well coordinated team. However since the game is about teamwork nerfing game mechanics that encourage would be a bad idea.

I think it is possible to kill a ship with the Hwacha if you can get two or three full volleys of burst ammo at point blank range. With the increased clip size the Hwacha will bring the armor down slightly faster than it can be repaired.

[Mattilald Anguisad]

Double whatever with piercing/explosive combo can kill anything fast, especialy if it's in 2v1.

Havacha alone is a nuisance. I've just today spent a game on a hwacha-fish. Match involved me firering at a pyra for about 100 points worth on scraps, at about 100M. Since I was engi and only had heavy clip I wasn't getting thru hull armor and only kept it crippled. Hwacha on Goldfish is so common olny becouse it's only atlernative is Carronade as a viable weapon (I'm sorry but flak and LJ are niche weapons on goldfish). Hwacha was broken a long while back in 1.1.4 when rebuild was nerfed, it's spread, aoe, damage were buffed. Hawacha is balanced. Please transfer Hawacha tactical tips and discussions to a separate topic.

[Mr Pleebus]

I am probably about to sound incredibly nooby, but when are carronade's (either light or heavy) preferable to anything else? I've never used or seen them used to any great effect..

[Echoez]

I am probably about to sound incredibly nooby, but when are carronade's (either light or heavy) preferable to anything else? I've never used or seen them used to any great effect..

They severely cripple the enemy's balloons, extremely effective close range since you will usually be firing them from above the enemy ship where their guns can't get you. I have seen and used, both as a captain on my ship and as a gunner firing one to great effect and if your teammate(s) is not asleep, you can make short work of your enemies.

Usually seen on Goldfishes and less so on Galleons and I think I've seen one Spire use them once, thought definately not recommended if you're not good.

(No idea about light carronades though since I haven't seen them all that often.)

[RearAdmiralZill]

I am probably about to sound incredibly nooby, but when are carronade's (either light or heavy) preferable to anything else? I've never used or seen them used to any great effect..

The main target of any carronade is the balloon. You get in close and in your enemy's blindspots, and disable them. The secondary goals of the carronade is armor destruction, followed by gun breaking (thanks to a small amount of shatter damage). Remember that when the balloon is down, any damage done to it is then transferred to the hull armor/permahull.

Killing people with a lone carronade can take a long time, and usually involves the ground helping you, however on a heavy carronade, kills are entirely possible. They are never super fast though unless they are already battered.

[awkm]

1.2.1 just dropped.

I am expecting complaints regarding fire being OP again.

COME AT ME BRO.

[RearAdmiralZill]

I am awaiting the banshee spam ver 2.

[Surette]

I am awaiting the banshee spam ver 2.

Friedumb, Bdr, and I ran a triple banshee pyramidion with incendiary rounds last night after the patch for the fun of it. We won.