Author Topic: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2  (Read 241071 times)

Offline Queso

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #120 on: May 20, 2013, 06:21:04 am »
Flying a flak, lumberjack, merc Galleon last night, I can tell you that they are still viable options. Try bringing some lesmok rounds. The only reason you see so much hwacha is because it's easy and effective at making you not die. It seriously lacks killing power though, which is good.

Offline Machiavelliest

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #121 on: May 20, 2013, 06:25:06 am »
I will vouch that the damage bleed into the hull from a dead balloon is what really makes the Lumberjack a monster.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #122 on: May 20, 2013, 09:51:56 am »
Not to discount Ofi's new gunner (someone who showed a lot of skill with a new gun) I think it worth mentioning that Ofi's most recent example came from a three v three on desert scrap against a rather unorganized team. I was on one of the enemy galleons and we were functionally stationary capping the point and getting hit by clouds and frankly our engineers weren't really that good (more concerned with shooting the merc than repairing half the time. i  was gunning at the time)

Three v three, especially those of the CP variety is where the lumberjack shines as it is easy to use it and not have to worry about being directly charged. If the goal had been kill the enemy as opposed to take the target, there would have been a vastly different scenario.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #123 on: May 20, 2013, 11:39:41 am »
One more question, what other gun can you miss half the clip and still achieve the guns primary function?
How about the light mortar!  Not to mention the flare, the flamethrower, the heavy flak, the artemis the rocket carousel...

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You give me a weapon that can reliably disable a single gun from 3km and I won't have anything to complain about.
The Mercury Field Gun. Also the Lumberjack only has an effective range of 2km with an exceptional gunner.

Offline TehPao

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #124 on: May 20, 2013, 12:09:51 pm »
Shooting a squid with the lumberjack is really hard. How sure are you that he was new?
I'm the guy he's talking about. New? I'm not terribly new. I played a few weeks ago and failed, but I got serious last week once college let out.
I'm the WORST shot on the crew. That's why I'm good at being an engineer. I was SHOCKED at how easy the lumberjack is. I was laughing so hard when I put lesmok in. Seriously. Lumberjack is the easiest gun a person can use, and it's the deadliest.

Offline Mattilald Anguisad

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #125 on: May 20, 2013, 01:06:53 pm »
One more question, what other gun can you miss half the clip and still achieve the guns primary function?
How about the light mortar!  Not to mention the flare, the flamethrower, the heavy flak, the artemis the rocket carousel...

Even if flak misses half a clip (either clip) it still basicaly takes out half of of permahull. While it sucks to loose the baloon, (especialy if you didn't take the drogue shoot) - ballon can be repaired, while permahull can't.

Quote
You give me a weapon that can reliably disable a single gun from 3km and I won't have anything to complain about.
The Mercury Field Gun. Also the Lumberjack only has an effective range of 2km with an exceptional gunner.
Yeah what Smollet said. And as Morblitz said, dissabling heavy guns is so easy - 2 mercs can not only dissable doth heavy guns but also keep hull armor down on a galleon.

@TehPao:
you might be right, if you don't count all the guns that are easier to shoot (merc, gat, l. flak, flamer, l.carrorade, h.carrorade, artemis, banshee, manticore).

Offline TehPao

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #126 on: May 20, 2013, 01:31:03 pm »
@TehPao:
you might be right, if you don't count all the guns that are easier to shoot (merc, gat, l. flak, flamer, l.carrorade, h.carrorade, artemis, banshee, manticore).
I think that the only  thing easier than a lumber is the carronades. (I wouldn't count flamethrower as a gun.)

Offline awkm

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #127 on: May 20, 2013, 01:53:36 pm »


Okay back, not like I was really away.  I HAVE MY EYES ON YOU!!

Some things to clarify:

Damage that is passed through a component to the hull applies proper damage modifiers as if that damage was hitting the hull.  In other words, LJ shots to a broken balloon will not be modified as huge OP balloon modified damage.  The hull only takes 30% of Flechette damage.  After all things considered, the LJ damage towards hull is similar to other Explosive small weapons like the Artemis.

With that said, I have no plans on changing the LJ any further.

Field Gun also will not see any significant changes other than a possible penetrating shot since it's already in its own weird gameplay space.  Pentrating as in the bullet will go through things and hit stuff behind it.  E.g. line up the guns on the bottom deck on a Galleon and take the lined items out in one shot.  It'll be hard to pull off but interesting nonetheless.  Since Artemis has been brought to attention, even post nerf (and again  the values are similar to pre v1.2 sans the turning arcs), Field Gun might be an interesting choice again.

Someone said something about no long range disable.  Not true.  Field Gun is a long range component disabler.  You could argue that Hwacha is too but you'll need skills and even with that, projectiles are either too slow or not enough bullets hit (Lesmok vs. Heavy vs. Burst)—the trade offs are many so I don't really consider this to be really long range.  The problem is accurate long range multiple disabler, which was the OP Artemis.  It was easy to shoot, shot fast, and had huge AoE.   This is not ideal.  Not being close enough to retaliate and being completely disabled (and also disables means not being able to get closer to retaliate or even escape) is simply not fun.  Options other than being a sitting duck must be there.




And again, the pitch turning arcs for Artemis and Carronade... the intention is not to nerf them but to push maneuvering and ship movement in a specific direction—make it even more important to telegraph types of attack passes.  Like how in fighting games like Street Fighter you're always trying to figure out if they're going to do a high or low attack, I want to stress the same kind of positioning awareness in this game (more so than it was) .

Offline Mattilald Anguisad

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #128 on: May 20, 2013, 02:27:50 pm »
@TehPao:
you might be right, if you don't count all the guns that are easier to shoot (merc, gat, l. flak, flamer, l.carrorade, h.carrorade, artemis, banshee, manticore).
I think that the only  thing easier than a lumber is the carronades. (I wouldn't count flamethrower as a gun.)
You think - it is your personall opinion.
By the fiering mechanism (perticles and raycast, for flamers and carrorades&gattlings respectively), or by projectile arc and speed (manticore, artemis, merc, banshee) are tehnicaly all much easier to hit with.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #129 on: May 20, 2013, 03:18:45 pm »
I actually think the game mechanic for telegraphing attacks is really interesting awkm.

Unfortunately this has effectively acted as a rather large nerf for carronades.  Now if carronades could only shoot downwards... that could be interesting.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #130 on: May 20, 2013, 03:50:19 pm »
Hwacha as a long range disable is a bit of a joke, the bullets are coming in so slowly you can lift above them or drop below them without even using chute vent or hydrogen. Even at closer ranges a well timed chute vent when you see the first hwacha shell leave the gun will get you out of most of the damage.

You are also comparing guns that have spread and bloom to a gun that is just 100% accurate on the same spot every time. The only other gun that compares is the scylla and that weapons projectiles are so slow and short range the comparison is once again a little bit out of place.

The only gun that even compares to a lumberjack is a merc light field gun, and it has 2 shells and a slower fire rate. It's funny that one of the sniper weapons actually feels like a sniper, the merc, while the other sniping option just feels like a god finger.

None of the weapons you mentioned accomplish their roles missing half a clip, except the flamer and carronade. Comparing the LJ to the carronade and flamer is like comparing a shotgun to a 30-30 and saying they're the same.

Also Sammy, sorry but that's a load, both your junker and pyri in the second game were trying to rush us because tehpao was making jokes in lobby about the lumber. They gave up half way through the game and decided to try and hide inside the wreckage. And then just quit after that second game.

Also awkm 115 armor damage every following shot from a lumber, and once it pops your balloon the first time that is at least 4 shots hitting your hull. so ~ 460 damage to hull armor, when you say 30% it sounds nice but that's spin control.  Oh well just like every other game it's gonna be sniper hard camps v brawlers. At least in most other games there is cover almost everywhere so you can approach without having to try to cover a Kilometer in the open. 

Oh well I have been over ruled like I knew I would, my compliments to the Swarm.

Offline Seamus S

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #131 on: May 20, 2013, 03:52:59 pm »
I agree about the carronade. The weapon is designed to hit baloons. Why would someone in the real world design a weapon to hit the top of a ship, and the force the person firing to shoot from the worst possible angle to hit that part?

Gameplay balance is fine, but if it doesn't make logical sense it is off-putting.

Offline NikolaiLev

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #132 on: May 20, 2013, 05:05:56 pm »
@ Nikolai you're dead wrong about it ONLY being useful against balloons. The Lumber still does ~115 damage to hull armor for every hit goes through a dead balloon, and ~95 to permahull. Not to mention its aoe can hurt guns pretty well if the gunner misses a tad low of the balloon.

Now unless the newest numbers posted are completely wrong I think that math is spot on.

Yeah, it does an okay amount of damage to armor and hull.  However, Flechette (which LJ deals on AoE) deals literally zero damage to guns and engines.  You'd need to hit them with the shatter damage, directly, which is only a piddly 50 shatter damage.

Otherwise, Lumberjack seems fine to me.  Not overpowered, not really underpowered.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #133 on: May 20, 2013, 05:27:57 pm »
@ nikolai that's 100 shatter damage per shell against engines and guns. The large AOE makes it easy to tag the components along with the balloon on a pyramidion or a goldfish. That may not kill in one shot but it does screw with the gun. 

Also the numbers don't seem to calculate correctly I have to run some tests to double check but, today I was paying close attention while fighting a LumberFish and the shots after the balloon popped were taking about a quarter of the midions Armor a shot. I need to do a controlled environment test just to be sure.

Offline Mattilald Anguisad

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Re: GUNS Balance Questions and Concerns v1.2
« Reply #134 on: May 20, 2013, 07:29:51 pm »
Hwacha as a long range disable is a bit of a joke, the bullets are coming in so slowly you can lift above them or drop below them without even using chute vent or hydrogen. Even at closer ranges a well timed chute vent when you see the first hwacha shell leave the gun will get you out of most of the damage.

You are also comparing guns that have spread and bloom to a gun that is just 100% accurate on the same spot every time. The only other gun that compares is the scylla and that weapons projectiles are so slow and short range the comparison is once again a little bit out of place.

The only gun that even compares to a lumberjack is a merc light field gun, and it has 2 shells and a slower fire rate. It's funny that one of the sniper weapons actually feels like a sniper, the merc, while the other sniping option just feels like a god finger.

None of the weapons you mentioned accomplish their roles missing half a clip, except the flamer and carronade. Comparing the LJ to the carronade and flamer is like comparing a shotgun to a 30-30 and saying they're the same.

Also Sammy, sorry but that's a load, both your junker and pyri in the second game were trying to rush us because tehpao was making jokes in lobby about the lumber. They gave up half way through the game and decided to try and hide inside the wreckage. And then just quit after that second game.

Also awkm 115 armor damage every following shot from a lumber, and once it pops your balloon the first time that is at least 4 shots hitting your hull. so ~ 460 damage to hull armor, when you say 30% it sounds nice but that's spin control.  Oh well just like every other game it's gonna be sniper hard camps v brawlers. At least in most other games there is cover almost everywhere so you can approach without having to try to cover a Kilometer in the open. 

Oh well I have been over ruled like I knew I would, my compliments to the Swarm.

Heavier ships like Galleon and pyramidion I know don't have enought vertical acceleration bo be able to lift out of the Hawacha without hydro or chute vent even at long range, especialy if they have good gunners that can lead you well (when you are lumberjacking your ship has to be relatively slow moving, and even more moving very predictably, so your gunner can compensate), hitting is not that hard (ussualy you fire entire clip of hawacha in 1 burst, if you broke hawacha barrage into say 6 bursts you could always hit with most of the clip). Lumberjack has smiilar spread to Typhoon (the major diffirence being that with typhoon you shoot directly at the recticle and clearly see the deviation, while with lumberjack you don't) - at ablut 1-1.2KM range gunners typicaly switch to heavy clip, becouse it makes lumberjack incredibly accurate (lumberjack does not have muc longer range with heavy clip, and without it the spread can be an issue). At about 800M range hawacha with heavy clip has small enough spread to be able to destroy heavy weapons (so there abouts - just short of maximim range with heavy clip) - witch is something I've gotten good at lateley: destroying heavy guns on slow moving ships with hawacha (I've only recently started doing more gunning), likevise light flak nad gatling have almost no spread and are incredibly easy to hit -(gatling and carrorade are easy to hit becouse they are mechanicaly not a balistic weapon). Carrorade parcticaly auto hits (is it in crosshairs when you fire? - litraly how it works, less spread = more damage => heavy clip is your friend when using carrorade as well).

Not all weapons are meant to destroy ships - gatling can destroy a heavy gun with 25-30% of the clip (you can take out both the hull armor and heavy gun with the same clip on enemy Goldfish - but you need heavy clip). Banshee can't realy do shit on it's own, but it's job it to cause mayhem by setting stuff on fire. Artemis still can dissable components if only half a clip (even full clip will do next to nothing to permahull - it primary purpose is component dissable). And a single hit with flaregun will add 15 stacks of fire witch will force at least one engineer to deal with the fire and severe baloon damage (that is if closest enginner has chem spray instead of extinguisher otherwise it can be less). --And then there is a light mortat that can still miss half a clip and destroy the permahull of everything not goldfish or galleon). 

While merc has lower rate of fire and less shells than lumberjack, it can accomplish anything with thse shots (except baloon and permahull damage - altho there were times at start of the year and untill about the time of Claiming of The Fjords tournament [seems like ages ago, with all the changes] when Mercs were kind of broken and you could kill a squid with 3 or maybe 5 hits [witch took no skill at long range]).

I personaly am a brawler, and still be running flamer/gat combo if famer could kick dunners of their gun instantly (i'm running gat/mortar or gat/flak combo ussualy) - AND is till think both merc and lumberjack are balanced fine.

@ nikolai that's 100 shatter damage per shell against engines and guns. The large AOE makes it easy to tag the components along with the balloon on a pyramidion or a goldfish. That may not kill in one shot but it does screw with the gun. 

Also the numbers don't seem to calculate correctly I have to run some tests to double check but, today I was paying close attention while fighting a LumberFish and the shots after the balloon popped were taking about a quarter of the midions Armor a shot. I need to do a controlled environment test just to be sure.
LJ AoE literaly deals 0 (ZERO)! damage to components like engines and guns (it's flachete damage witch has 0 modifier - any number multiplied by zero is zero).

midion? If you are reffering to pyra thant you got something wrong - I have been repairing thru LJ barages many times, even on COGS and I can tell you 1 LJ shot does not take a quater of Pyramidion's armor, it in fact takes a consistent LJ barage that hits 5/6 shots on average to become an issue. Taking out Goldfishe's Armor is much easier even With LJ.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 07:52:12 pm by Mattilald Anguisad »