Author Topic: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas  (Read 224361 times)

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2014, 06:15:11 pm »
HOLY SHIT! PROXIMITY IS MY NEW FAV ONE! That is a Great Ammo type! Holy Crap!

Offline SquireOfFire

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2014, 06:21:49 pm »
Tesla rounds:
on hitting: engines or weapons this sends and electrical charge thorough the component, disabling it for 2 - 5 seconds (depending on the weapon you are using and if it is effective against said component or not)
-30% ammo
-10% firing speed
+10% range
(should be nerfed or incompatible with the flamer)

kerosene soaked rounds:
on hit: increases the chance of igniting the hit ship and has a small chance to ignite mid-air.
+30% ship ignition chance
10% chance rounds will ignite mid-air, granting bonus fire damage (similar to that of the flamer)
+20% firing speed
deals damage to the weapon these rounds are fired from (per round fired)
-30% damage
-10% range

tracer rounds:
on hit: has a small chance to spot a ship
+20% damage to balloon
-20% ammo
-10% damage to everything else

mini-heat rounds:
+40% damage to hull armor (not the hull itself)
+20% range
-30% overall damage
-10% ammo
-20% firing speed

Offline awkm

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2014, 06:35:29 pm »
RE: Autoloader/Reload Crank

We had ammo and passives that modified reload speed.  The way we did it before was subject to a lot of abuse and we ended up ditching reloading speed related shenigans.  However, there's a chance faster reload may come back in some shape or form.

Having Autoloader/Reload Crank means that we would be officially making that last second ammo switch an important thing and not only a "nice to have."  That's kind of interesting.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2014, 07:28:14 pm »
[Note that ive only tested the effects, not on a match or a ship]

New Proximity
Very, very powerfull. The drawbacks isnt enough. This ammo type is such an easy mode for most guns.
The -60% secondary damage, is not enough.
I suggest add another -30 to primary. or just -50% less damage overall instead.
Along with activating under 50% of the AOE. 80% is... you cant miss. You just cant miss.
Maybe, tune down the AOE to 1500%, but then keep 75% activation.
For now, it seems very easy mode and lumberjacks will always hit, no exception.
[Remember, i havent tested this versus ships so maybe it is maintainable.]


But here is the things it acomplishes!
Hwacha actualy becomes an area of Denial type of weapon!
I can see people having fun actualy using the Lumberjack/Heavy flak (New people that is)
Mines can be used as proximity warnings.

And some other uses. Ive noticed that i do prefer direct hits over this, but this does quite the easy mode of damage. Il need further testing, this is neat!
This can... easily replace burst rounds. If we have both, then one will be used over the other.

The mechanic of this ammo can be used in other ways for other ammo type. Or weapons in general. Im liking the idea of this, its very strong atm.


Injection Clip
It is actualy in a good place now.

May be the go to ammo for the mortar, while the gattling and stuff is pretty good.
This ammo is seppoused to be used only on short ranges. I dont know if it is best to have no arming time.
This is combating lochnagar by the edge, maybe thats what you want. Almost replacable. A hades in particular does better than the gattling. I dont know why i would bring a gattling if this can satisfy close range needs AND long range. I suggest removing the arming time buisness.


Dragon ash + Dense Lungs
I find these to be balanced in a sense for the gunner.

If we remove Charged, suddenly gunner is more valuable for their slots.



For now, ive only tested these versus Test Dummies.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2014, 07:59:25 pm »
That stuff should be posted in the DevApp forum. I already made comments on prox, and it is horribly game-breaking as is. You will only hurt yourself with the mines.

Offline Myroc

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #80 on: May 22, 2014, 04:46:08 am »
RE: Autoloader/Reload Crank

We had ammo and passives that modified reload speed.  The way we did it before was subject to a lot of abuse and we ended up ditching reloading speed related shenigans.  However, there's a chance faster reload may come back in some shape or form.

Having Autoloader/Reload Crank means that we would be officially making that last second ammo switch an important thing and not only a "nice to have."  That's kind of interesting.
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of an "Ammo Crank" or some sort of ammunition whose sole benefit is to increase reload speed. The fact that it is "abused" to increase reload speed then switch to a better ammo type at the last second may be just what Gunners need to be better than engineers! On it's own it would be only moderately useful, but when coupled with other clips it really shines, as you can have a fast reload speed without having to fire terrible ammo. Since it is an ammo type used best in conjunction with other ammo types, this would actually make the Gunner's extra ammo slots useful, as Engineers would only be able to choose between good ammo types and fast reloads.

The one problem here, though, is that the game is balanced around the current reload values, and suddenly giving every gunner the ability to reload faster is likely going to break things horribly. If this Reloader ammunition is implemented, it needs to be paired with a nerf to the reload speeds of all guns in the game.  That means that Gunners would be able to fire their guns at what is currently optimal efficiency, where-as Engineers would either be plagued by slow reloads or inferior ammo types, making them not as good for gunning.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #81 on: May 22, 2014, 05:32:50 am »
That makes for the same story, just new to us.

In one alternate univers, all guns are faster, and then slowed down to this univers speed. Haha.
So really, expect quick firing on ships with gunners. Ide go for 2 gunners on my ship then.

Offline Mezhu

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #82 on: May 22, 2014, 09:04:27 am »
A 'hotfix' of sorts would be changing the buffkit's effect on weapons from a very short but strong boost in damage to a weaker all around boost with much longer duration.

Everyone appreciates the variety current ammo provide, and almost every gun can benefit from ammo swaps. Greased gatling might be the strongest in DPS, but heavy and incendiary still retain some use for sniping components or spreading fires/switching focus to balloon. The main issue right now is that having the buffkit's boost is far superior to the added utility of the additional ammo types.

So what happens if you don't actually need the engineer to spam buffer hits on the gun with each reload? What if he's just there once every minute (like on the balloon), so that a gun can be buffed but still be used by a gunner?

I think a change in the buff's effect to 1 min duration, +5% damage, 10% faster reload would do the trick
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 09:25:13 am by Mezhu »

Offline redria

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #83 on: May 22, 2014, 09:17:53 am »
I think a change in the buff's effect to 1 min duration, +5% damage, 10% faster reload would do the trick
So much yes.
But.
+5% damage is fine.
I'm not sure about the faster reload. It almost requires having a buff kit on your ship to be able to hold your own in a fight. Maybe a buff to gun turning speed, or to gun health?

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #84 on: May 22, 2014, 09:22:17 am »
Woooow, hold up. Introduce faster reload with buffkit, then you will want gunengineers everywhere! Ok maybe just one.

But yeah, i see your point. But, i dont think  that does the trick. We want gunners to be utilised for their gunnery, not make engineers weaker so that we maybe get a gunner.
Im, very much burned out on ideas. I cant possibly contribute with forum text any more.

Other than max HP ammo types would still be cool. I mean barricade + max health to heatsink would be super hot.
Along with maybe Tinker ammo, and Ammo crank. Throw in Proximity and injection, and weve got combinations that may want players have gunner on their ship.
But thats just me though.

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #85 on: May 22, 2014, 12:03:15 pm »
Woooow, hold up. Introduce faster reload with buffkit, then you will want gunengineers everywhere! Ok maybe just one.

But yeah, i see your point. But, i dont think  that does the trick. We want gunners to be utilised for their gunnery, not make engineers weaker so that we maybe get a gunner.
Im, very much burned out on ideas. I cant possibly contribute with forum text any more.

Other than max HP ammo types would still be cool. I mean barricade + max health to heatsink would be super hot.
Along with maybe Tinker ammo, and Ammo crank. Throw in Proximity and injection, and weve got combinations that may want players have gunner on their ship.
But thats just me though.

Why would you want a gunner on the ship to use proximity or injection, while you can have an engineer with proximity or injection + a buffhammer or better repair tools to rebuild their broken gun? The alleged 'problem' is still not being adressed.

Quote
Everyone knows that Gunners may not be the most popular role to play on your ship.  Many think that running Engineers is the most beneficial due to the assortment of Repair/Buff equipment Engineers can carry.  It's time to make Gunners more desirable and the easiest, fastest, and arguably best way to do it is through new Gunner Ammo.

Any additional ammo you add to the game can still be taken by engineers, and adding more variety will not change that fact. Engineers can still perform the other Repair/Buff tasks that gunners cannot do effectively, while the gunners advantage is far more niche. An engineer can use 50% of the 'gunner' benefit (2 ammo types out of a possible 4), while a gunner can only use only 33.3% of the 'engineer' benefit (1 repair tool out of a possible 3). It is also worth noting that every single engineer tool can be used to benefit each component on the ship (except for using a buff hammer on a flame-thrower, which is arguably neutral), where currently different ammunition choices have the possibility of being detrimental to particular weapons.

Unless there is a solid non-replicable advantage given to a gunner shooting a gun (one which requires 2 gunnery items to be used simultaneously) the engineer will remain the favoured class. By all means add these new ammo types (THEY'RE AWESOME!) but don't be deluded into thinking that it is, in any way, a solution.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 12:31:28 pm by GeoRmr »

Offline Dirius

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #86 on: May 22, 2014, 12:22:25 pm »
Instead of special amo I think it would make the gunner more viable to give them better abilities. For example, make the gunner able to aim weapons faster by maybe 20%

Another idea I've been thinking about is the ability to 'overclock' a gun. Switch it into a mode where the weapon fires and reloads 50% faster, but takes damage for each shot

For example a very slow weapon being boosted would break after only 6 or so shots, while a very fast one would last longer.

Offline redria

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #87 on: May 22, 2014, 12:38:55 pm »
Any additional ammo you add to the game can still be taken by engineers adding more does not change that fact, while engineers can still perform the other Repair/Buff tasks that gunners cannot do effectively.
A lot of this too.

New ammo types that damage the gun/ship only promote engineers because, especially with heavy disable right now, gun damage is a problem best solved by engineers.

For an ammo type to actually promote gunners, it would need to be inherently productive for your ship and your team, but would need to not be inherently powerful.
New ammos don't need to deal massive damage. The guns themselves already deal good damage, and your engineer is going to take those ammos that complement this.
New ammos need to reduce the damage of the weapon and provide other opportunities to benefit your ship and team.

Consider, you would (probably) not make your engineer take an ammo that will reduce your damage output since that will be their only option. However, a gunner can still take the damage ammos along with the niche ammo types that actually reduce your damage output.

The strength of the gunner is their versatility and ability to be useful at different ranges and in different situations. Right now the ammo types focus mostly around your damage output and range capabilities, with the exception of heatsink. I think new ammo types need to be types that you would not want your engineer to take in any situation. Types that are inherently not good if your choices are that ammo and normal. But they should be capable of being used very effectively if you have a gunner who can load that ammo in for a single clip to provide you with some form of advantage before switching back to more conventional ammo types.

Examples I've seen in this thread being Anti-gravity rounds, tracer rounds, and my own impact ammo.
Anti-grav would allow shots to fall upwards instead of down, making mortar crazy interesting, but not an ammo you would take with your engineer since there are better ammo types for a player who is limited to normal +1.
Tracer rounds would have to deal next-to-no damage while giving a percent chance to "spot" a ship if that ship is hit. Engineers taking it would sacrifice their damage output, but a gunner would still have 2 other ammos to take damage ammo types.
Impact ammo would allow each gun to deliver impact damage instead of its normal damage type. The damage would be severely reduced to where an engineer with a mallet could maintain anything being focused, but the impact would be distinct and noticeable. Engineers would again be weakened by taking it, but a gunner could easily fit it in for interesting situations/tactics.

Another idea that is probably infeasible and may not be desired would be healer rounds, which deal 0 damage to enemies, and 50% damage as a repair to friendlies. A close range ship could then support a long range ally by assisting with repairs while the long range ally snipes. But your gungineer taking this would immediately nerf your ability to fight, making it mostly only desirable for gunners.

In essence, if ammo types are the immediate band-aid to the problem, then we need to come up with ammo types that a pilot would love to have available on their ship, but that would not be beneficial as a singular ammo for a player.

TL;DR: Think of ammo types focused around utility, not damage - damage ammos will be taken by engineers, while utility ammos are taken by gunners.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 12:40:35 pm by redria »

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #88 on: May 22, 2014, 12:41:16 pm »
Cool, but that would be horrendously immersion breaking red! (almost as much as injection clip)  :P

My only concern is that the utility ammo is not as desirable as having a choice of three from the already existing ammo types that we have.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 12:48:02 pm by GeoRmr »

Offline Mysterious Medic

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #89 on: May 22, 2014, 03:20:06 pm »
Alright so, I've thought about this a bit and I have to agree with geo. Ammo types really won't fix the balance of the classes. Even utility ammos I feel could be used with an engi. No, I think the permanent solution is passive gunner tools. The reason buffed guns are so great is because the buff stacks on top of whatever other ammo you're using- so a buff ammo is pointless. I'm thinking a passive buff gunner tool will fix this. It will take up a gunnery tool slot, and it will make whatever gun you go on have that passive buff for whenever you're shooting it. If an engineer would use this gunnery tool it would put him at a disadvantage because he cannot use other ammos in conjunction with it.

Let's take the example of the buffed greased gat. Right now, it will always be better than a gunner just with greased rounds and two other ammos, because the other Ammos aren't needed. But with a gunnery passive buff, the gunner will have the edge- always a permanent + 20% damage without all that silly clicking- and you get two other ammo types.

These passive tools shouldn't be limited to simulating buffs either. You could have passive tools for adding hp to the gun, reducing arming time, adding fire chance- the possibilities are nearly endless.

This fixes our problem and doesn't nerf the engineer who will always still have more repairing power. All it does is make the gunners better at well... Gunning.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 03:23:22 pm by Mysterious Medic »