Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas

[awkm]

Everyone knows that Gunners may not be the most popular role to play on your ship.  Many think that running Engineers is the most beneficial due to the assortment of Repair/Buff equipment Engineers can carry.  It's time to make Gunners more desirable and the easiest, fastest, and arguably best way to do it is through new Gunner Ammo.



This is a call for new Gunner Ammo that you think will make you choose the 3 slots for ammo that a Gunner has over the 1 slot that the others have.



Theoretically, coming up with ammo types that are more niche means that players will need to take advantage of the the additional gunner slots.  Non-gunners will usually decide to carry 'safe' ammo, which will give them as many gun options as possible.  Niche ammo has very specific use cases: situational and on what gun.  If a gunner is coordinated with the pilot, using these niche ammo should have a large pay-off.  That's the direction I'd like to steer new gunner ammo.

Here is a short list of things we can do, but we welcome other ideas.  However, try to keep the ammo effects localized to the gun they're loaded into.

• Effects can stay while a gunner is not on the gun, but ammo is loaded into it (like heatsink)
• Probably could increase max gun health while ammo is loaded
• Modify primary and secondary damage
• Modify damage modifier of gun
• Modify range
• Modify muzzle speed
• Deal proportional damage over entire clip (e.g. reduce gun health to 20% by end of clip) 
• There's a lot we could do... brainstorm away!

Many have suggested other things like new tools and passive abilities.  While these ideas may be good and could solve the gunner issue, these ideas require many new features, code work, UI, and will require new interaction paradigms (how to select and use things) or break existing ones.

Here is a simple rule that we try to follow as much as possible due to results in alpha and beta of the game (more about that later):

• Ammunition is only used at a gun and forces a reload.  The new ammunition is 'loaded' into the gun at the very last microsecond of the reload time (the bullet icon filling).  Up until then, you can switch between what ammo is being loaded.
• Repair equipment is only used when you are running around the ship and must be used on a component
• Pilot tools is only used while on the helm.  They are active so long as you have the skill selected.
• The two spotting pilot tools, Range Finder and Spotting Glass, are the only two exceptions to the above interaction paradigm.  We'd like to keep it this way and not introduce any more special cases outside of 'spotting' equipment.

Here is information regarding what has happened with Gunner ammo in alpha and beta:

• Ammo affected reload time.  E.g. one ammo reloaded very quickly but had fewer shots.  However, the way in which the reloading mechanics worked we had to remove reload duration effects because it was breaking in several cases.  It was subject to a lot of abuse.
• There were gunner passive abilities but were removed because there was a difficulty of selecting what passives were active.  Ultimately, passives caused the decision space to collapse and therefore did not offer players any additional meaningful choices.

Thanks for everyone's input.  Dev App usually has some some weird things to be tested.  Get in touch with Keyvias for a key to Dev App.

[awkm]

From SirNotLag:

Dropper ammo: adds a drop of like 15 m/s to all projectiles shot, 50% less arming time, +10% more damage ( i thought of this due to the dropping mines discussion but figured a new ammo type could get the job done and may be useful for other weapons due to the damage increase and less arming time)

Rocketry ammo: 20% chance of adding a fire stack on the enemy and +60% projectile speed, however every shot adds a fire stack on the weapon your using (I was thinking of having the chem spray stop the fire stacks but since this is a range ammo type its be to easy to keep the weapon chemed and then you would just have a super powerful lesmok. So have the fire stacks added from this ignore chem spray immunity and that may also have the extinguisher become more useful as a niche tool.)

Flat ammo: reduce accuracy, projectiles travel -15% slower, +20% damage increase

shredder ammo: -30% clip reduction, +20% faster fire rate, +20%  damage increase, every round deals 10 damage to the weapon.

[awkm]

From Caprontos:


An ammo that deflates an enemies balloon, causing it to move down quicker, and up slower. like mimicking the pilot tool

An ammo that has a chance to remove chem spray seconds or buff seconds..

An ammo that "seeks" specific components.. So if you shoot with in a certain range, the ammo will turn to hit it (so like, if you have engine seeking ammo, the ammo will turn and hit engines as long as your close) (Reduced rate of fire though..).

On that note.. magnet ammo that makes it pull toward metal parts of the ship..

An ammo that changes a guns dmg type.. (goodbye  balance!)

Light loch.. that works like loch but will only reduce light guns to 1 hp.. with slightly reduced stats..

Some new debuff ammo.. Things like, if you hit an engine its output is reduced by 25% for 20seconds..

An ammo that marks a hit ship.. works even in clouds.. but the mark follows normal rules and will go away if not visible.. (single shot, +20% reload + a bit more range).

An ammo that creates small tar clouds.. on impact..

Friendly ammo (heal - buff - chem spray allies from afar..)

Friendly ammo 2 - (Use the magic of friendly ammo to heal - buff - chem spray yourself..)

An ammo that makes a ship magnetized.. and pulls it toward any nearby ships..

Delayed fire ammo.. it only tries to add fire stacks x seconds after hitting an enemy ship..

Ammo that only works for mines, but lets you use a hot key that explodes all the mines you shot with the ammo..

buff ammo that adds a buff to the gun that lasts for two clips.. second clip can be any ammo.

Ammo that extends the life of engi buffs and chem spray... maybe it makes a buff last 2 clips, instead of timed.. if the ammo is active when the buff is added.. the point is so... having one buff engi is fine because he doesn't have to buy your gun all the time, and still buff and shoot his.... or just to make chem spray last longer..

Ammo that increases the turn ratios of the gun .. but dmgs the gun the entire time it is outside its default range.. (They said the pyramidion couldn't shoot to the right..)

Random stat ammo.. that randomly adds buffs and debuffs from a pool that includes all available buffs and debuffs.. (... no? I didn't think so)

[SirNotlag]

You forgot my Swarm ammo idea!

Swarm Ammo: -30% projectile speed, + 1000% fire rate, -40% clip size, -10% damage, weapon breaks after it fires the full clip. (like lochnager for fast firing weapons)

Some type of clip that sacrifices damage for durability would also be nice, could even come in 3 different flavours, one for long range, one for short range, and one that makes the weapon useless but makes it so durable it should be able to stay alive till your in its effective range and can load up another ammo type.

Also note that the numbers i give are pulled completely out of thin air to be used as examples. I'm sure there are better ways to mathematically get the effect for the ammo types I suggest.

P.S. if you do use any of these ideas can the name of the clip be based off the name of the player who thought of the idea such as a "Sir Notinham Clip" or a " Caprontos Clip"?

[awkm]

I see how it is... you want it named after you

I can entertain that idea.

[Omniraptor]

I too would like a clip that makes your weapon useless but nigh-invulnerable. Also, please make heavy clip to increase muzzle speed on the carronades only.


p.s. This is more of a 'general tools' idea, but would it be possible to implement tools that take up 2 or 3 slots?

[Captain Smollett]

Invulnerability clip would actually be pretty cool.  ]

Gun does deals half damage, takes 75% less damage.

Omniraptor clip

[Kieran Kindree]

Extremely close range tar-based ammo that, if it hits the engines, renders them virtually useless...unless a specific engineering "cleaning tool" is used to dissolve it.

Or ammo that works similarly for the harpoon (advantage: longer range. disadvantage: only works for the harpoon) - The "fouling line" to snag and tangle props.

[Kieran Kindree]

I know we don't really want damaging/killing players to ever take precedence over damaging ships, but I've always thought there culd be something like "grapeshot ammo" that slows the movement of actual players for a time as they are "injured" on board.

Might be far more annoying than effective though. 

[Tanya Phenole]

May I suggest a Miss Phenole Rainbow Friendship Clip?

Healing clips.

-40% clip size, +30% speed rate, no damage modifier. Can be used to heal  both on ally and enemy ship.
(concept name smth like Resin Gum Shots - sticky charges, which keep the ship together)

I am joking of course, but something like that could really give a new feel to game. And repower gunners

[SirNotlag]

Explosive ammo: adds a small explosion on impact which carries the secondary damage type of the weapon, -5% fire rate, and -10% damage ( idea would be for weapons that don't normally have explosions to get them such as the chain gun or carronade so it makes it easier for them to break components since their secondary damage is shatter and they fire multiple inaccurate shots).

Delayed ammo: increases the range of the projectiles but not the speed at which they travel, -25% clip size, +15% weapon damage, -10% fire rate, +10% arming time

Metal Slug ammo: removes the secondary damage and adds it to the primary, -20% projectile speed, -15% projectile lift

Unstable ammo: reverse of the slug ammo removes primary damage and converts it to the secondary damage type, +10% projectile speed, +20% explosive AOE, -20% clip size, -15% fire rate.

not sure if these last 2 could be done or if they'd even be balanced, but hey just an idea .

P.S. Honestly i feel it would only be fair that the person who thought of the idea for a weapon type should at least get a say it what it is going to be called, Yes that means id probably try to have it named after myself or my avatar cause I am vain like that 

[Sammy B. T.]

Acid rounds

Lower projectile speed
Lower rate of fire
Smaller clip
Each consecutive hit on a component from the same clip does more damage

[Myroc]

This is a call for new Gunner Ammo that you think will make you choose the 3 slots for ammo that a Gunner has over the 1 slot that the others have.

Normal Rounds.

...that's it. That's the suggestion. Making gunners more viable in comparison to engineers isn't going to happen simply by giving them a new ammo type. You're just going to see engineers run around with that ammo type instead. The problem is this: Repairing recquires you to have a lot of different tools to be useful, but gunning only requires one single ammo type to be operating at optimal conditions. It is very, very easy to get away with only ever using one particular round type on a particular gun, at the very least for light guns; Extra ammo types are redundant 99% of the time. Extra tools are never redundant. Not to mention that in the earlier case, that person can still operate any other gun at normal conditions.

Fixing the problem of gunners being inferior to engineers is only going to happen if either A: Make carrying extra ammo types equally as useful as carrying extra tools or B: Restricting the ammo types that engineers can carry. If normal ammo type wasted a slot, you would either have engineers give up their ammo type in order to be flexible, or focus on one particular type of ammo and more or less restrict themselves to guns where they would be useful, which is not currently the case. Default ammo is the pipe wrench of ammo types. It's an average tool that works well for everything, while not excelling in any particular area. You're currently giving it to everyone for free. Change that and gunners are going to become a lot more viable. (Alternatively, go the opposite direction and give everyone pipe wrenches for free. It's likely going to devastate the game as it stands, but it would at least make gunners and engineers more equal.)

[Goldenglade]

^^^^ agreed

[Deltajugg]

Normal Rounds.

This.
So much this.

Why did noone say that before? o.O
Why did I not say that before, thinking about it today?

I was thinking about it earlier today (all the hive minds), and how would the execution look like, for we'll end up with a problem of not having a basic ammo at the very start of the game and reload mechanics would have to change a little bit if there's no basic ammo for a gun to switch to if the user isn't holding it with the correct ammo. I propose all guns to be empty at the very start of the game, for them to reload only by clicking the R button, and for the ammo to be applied based on the ammo used by the last person, something like "marking" the weapon with the ammo of the user that was the last to set it, so it will reload with this ammo type every time until someone changes the "mark" for a different ammo. That's of course a change that would probably take a while, but it seems like the best solution to make gunners viable. For as Myroc said, you're basically giving everyone a free "pipe wrench" in the shape of the normal ammo clip that has quite universal purpose.

I would even go one step further, for even that won't solve the problem for the guns that are very good with only one ammo type (merc,flamer,gat and so on), not to mention the "normal ammo" idea while being really good, it may be denied for the time being, for it'll probably be quite alot of code work.
One of the reasons there's not much purpose for the gunner is that not only engineer can repair AND use guns effectively, but he also can bring buffhammer, which replaces most of the ammo types in their effectiveness, or gets rid of many flaws of certain ammo types, denying the trade-off for its benefits, and that is basically what hurts gunner the most. Why would you want a class that can use different ammo types for different purposes in situations, when one ammo type engie can bring is good 85% of the time, and more powerful than any of the tree gunner can bring if the gun gets a buff?
For that reason I would like to see buffhammer changed for guns. Reduce the damage buff for them, so a buffed ammo will be more relevant in its effective area than unbuffed one, but so it won't overpower the idea behind bringing more ammo types for different situations. At the same time, I'd also like to see the reduction of the amount of hits needed to buff a gun.

Those are my ideas at least. I tried really hard to come up with some kind of ammo that could help resolve the issue of gunners being hardly relevant compared to +20% damage buff, but as Myroc said, people will simply switch to that ammo an an engineer and the issue will stay there. Whatever ideas we could come up with, I think that to balance-out gunners we need some new mechanic changes rather than simply new ammo type.