Author Topic: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas  (Read 227501 times)

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #105 on: May 24, 2014, 01:49:43 pm »
Powder Keg (incendiary's bigger brother) :

+50% chance of ignition on hit.
+10% velocity.
+5% damage.

-10% capacity
+10% recoil
20% damage over progression of clip.
Muzzle effect: Heavily smoking flames that severely obscure gunner's vision.


"Double the powder and shorten the fuse!"


Ironclad Clip (heatsink's bigger brother):

Puts out 6 stacks of fire on reload.
Fireproof while loaded.
+200% HP max while loaded.

-50% ammo
-50% velocity
-50% rate of fire
-90% rotation speed


"Load up the Ironclad and get to the engines. This smells like Moonshine." -me

This would definitely make gunners higher value against disable builds. I would require my Galleon gunner to bring this ammo.



And another one a little out of the scope of the base changes.

Stealth shot:

Removes all graphical effects, including tracers, projectiles, and particles.
-30% damage.
-10% velocity


"Lighten the powder, lads, we don't want them to see where we are killing them from."

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #106 on: May 24, 2014, 06:02:04 pm »
Here is the list of ammo that have a unique purpose that would make for gunners instead of engineers coming from this topic. Also. it is IMO.

Quote
Stealth shot:

Removes all graphical effects, including tracers, projectiles, and particles.
-30% damage.
-10% velocity

Quote
Smoke Ammo
The explosion of the gun lasts for 3 seconds longer on direct hits as well as it stays with the enemy ships momentum.
-50% recoil -30% Clip

Quote
Tinker Clip:

Gun is fixed (options below) by this clip.
Gun fixes itself when broken?
Damage modifiers? Reduction in firing speed? Fewer rounds?

"Engineers? We don't have time for bloody engineers!" 
Going with gunners needing to fix their own guns, make a special mechanical clip that fixes the gun while firing. Opposite of the DevApp special damage modifier ammos. This frees the gunner up to take something other than pipe wrench.

Quote
Placeholder: It will not fully reload the gun, it stops the reload at ~99%. This allows gunners to leave the gun and load their special ammo in it when required. Like burst or heavy for hwacha in case you don't know which will be more useful before you don't even see the enemy. Will load the select ammo once "R" is pressed (again).
If the same ammo is select and "R" is pressed then either don't load anything or just load default ammo.
The price would be that you give up 1 full slot in order to use the other 2 more effiecently.

Quote
Heatsink Give it 25%-75% maximum health to the gun that has heatsink
This way, we can be sure that a heatsink weapon is a weapon harder to disable. It is noticed by the chem spray glow. Along with the core nature of heatsink is to protect the gun.
Or
Quote
Barricade Turn the gun into a shield. The icon is a shield with a bullet over it. 1 shot. 200% more gun health. -100% rotation speed
[This works well with the heatsink change] This is a good tool for some ships. Changing the gun into a damage soaking craze some ships would love to have. A galleon may protect his right side by giving those 2 heavy guns barricade ammo type. A pyramidion may give his side guns barricade. A spire may give all of its guns barricade for maximum protection. A goldfish can have this loaded before it reloads into a different ammo type. This in turn with heatsink will be for an unexpected effect because it does not have a chemspray glow. However, it only acts as a barricade and one shot isnt alot at all.

Quote
Acid rounds

Lower projectile speed
Lower rate of fire
Smaller clip
Each consecutive hit on a component from the same clip does more damage

These are all the ammo types coming from this topic that i could see myself bringing 2 gunners with and always 1 gunner atleast on every other ship.
These are ammo that engineers would wish they had but they cant because not enough gunner slots.



Like seriously, Stealth ammo, im so going to make my gunner use it on the lumberjack. Problem is they will need rangefinder to be sure.
Many other ships would benefitt from this, and would want a gunner on ships like the squid, goldfish, Pyra... maybe all ships for certain situations.

Smoke rounds about being annoying and making them react slow. On a spire, ide use this alot versus a charging pyra so that the pilot and gunners dont react torwards a hydro or their awareness generally.

Stuff like the Heatsink, Barricade and Tinker clip are different variants on making the gun survive. Something engineers would like to bring, something gunners on some ships have to bring.

Then we have acid rounds, rounds that reward the gunner for hitting the ship. Its harder to fire, but rewards him in a unique way.

The other ammo that we now have are stuff like Injection and Proximity (That still need tweaking) that are just as different and saturated enough to make the engineer WANT more gunner slots, thus we have a gunner for that.

Offline Caprontos

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #107 on: May 25, 2014, 12:56:28 am »
I think part of the issue is.. the lack of situational time for many light guns that currently lack the need of a gunner..

Stuff that could be considered.. with that in mind...

Disabler ammo
An ammo that increased part dmg or mainly gun dmg, but lowers all other dmg the gun normal has.. So in these short fights if your getting the worst of it.. you could opt to have the gunner use this to disable the enemy to buy that extra time... maybe

Close Combat Ammo
I suggested earlier close range ammo, that's only useful.. close range but is stronger then usual..

Deflate ammo
(similar to what was suggested earlier) An ammo that forces a ship to drop altitude.. temporarily.. + the makes it hard to go up but easy to drop "debuff".. (that then maybe leads to a immunity so it can't be abused or the ammo just gets greyed out for x amount of time till it can be used more).. Could work for this also.. It would give you the chance to get out of their gun arks and maybe escape death once..

Freeze ammo
It just freezes the enemy ships controls + gun angles for a few seconds... so if they are turning, they keep turning.. if they are going full speed they keep going full speed.. Like with the deflate ammo.. once loaded the clip is greyed out for a few mins before it can be used again.. to stop it from being used constantly.. or maybe, a ship is just immune to the effect for a few mins so you can't chain use it as a team ...

If an ammo needs special rules to make it balanced.. is it bad?

Confuse ammo
what about an ammo that makes the enemies controls go haywire for a few seconds. The pilots speed control, would move up and down randomly during this time and the balloon would go up and down randomly.. Wheel could turn left and right.. Maybe guns would randomly invert and such, so up is left and so on making it hard to aim..  (balance.. see above)..

I know this realistically doesn't make a lot of sense.. but .... so what.. I just want it.. I just like the whole concept of it...

Shrapnel ammo
This ammo could just jam enemy guns/engines for a few seconds .. just another "Save" ammo thought..

Attract ammo
Basically it would attampt to pull incoming ammo to it.. so if you shoot it away from you.. enemy ammo will go away.. I don't get it either..


Ejecto ammo
It just forces all the people on the ship to fly off at a random % chance..... The more they fly off the better... again I just think it would be funny.. really... Just me?..


Most of these ammo's, are ammo's you mainly use close range.. when your probably going to die situation.. Maybe best defense could be a good offense :S idk.. anyway..

These ammos.. are just.. random ideas

Double or nothin ammo
Its normal ammo, where the clip either is 2x normal ammo in every stat... or it breaks the gun and nothing happens.. 50/50 chance if op.. then a weighted 30/70 chance..

Pierce ammo
The ammo goes through ships it hits, and can hit enemies behind it also.. So if you catch your enemies side by side, you might be able to hit both.. How cool would getting two kills with one flak shot be?..

--
Ice ammo
Deals more dmg to parts on fire.. (the whole heat then cool thing).. but has a chance to remove a stack with each hit..

Achilles ammo
Does more dmg to parts on a repair cool down... (name pointing to.. if your fixing something, then its opened up and so you hit it when its weak..... yep)... Including hull/balloon... but hull and balloons dmg shouldn't be as extreme maybe as parts bonus.. I think guns = most bonus.. engines a bit less and hull/balloon bit more less.. based on how often these things are under repair

Splash ammo
Does more dmg to hull if it hits a component... I hear if a gun hits a component, the component blocks the hull some what.. so this would make it so it does more dmg if it hits them.. Name is random idk what to name it..  Just for guns/engines..

Gust ammo
Has a chance to double fire stacks, on parts that are already on fire...

Counter ammo
Does more dmg to guns that are firing

Critical ammo
Does more dmg the less permanent hull health  you have..

(These all would be similar to normal ammo.. at regular power, but noticeably stronger, under its situation).
--

Steady ammo
Ammo is very sensitive to ship movement and can easily be thrown way off target.... but stronger then normal ammo with more range.. This could even be like a second merc ammo.. so like charged buffed but if the ship moves much you will miss.... Clearly a long range ammo.. for ships that can not move at all..

Ram ammo
Adds a debuff to hit ships, that if rammed while they have it.. get hit for a bit more .. So like it softens them up..

Shock ammo
If it hits a gun it has a chance to kick the user off it.. bit more chance to kick engineers off it...?

I get some of these are able to be completely over powered but.. with proper balancing and thought I am sure all things can be made balanced...... well kinda..

Sorry if I repeated your idea btw.. I didn't mean to.. I just didn't see your similar idea..

.. an bed time again..

Offline omegaskorpion

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #108 on: May 25, 2014, 01:23:53 pm »
im not sure did anybody send this kind of idea but:

Spreader ammo:

works on weapons that shoot missiles/protectiles

the projectile spreads to 10 smaller parts. (every small projectile does -50% of the normal damage and the aoe is halfed)
the projectiles spred to small area and fly the same lenght as the normal rounds. (they still fly to same dirrection where you shoot)

mag capasity is reduced by 60%
fire rate is lovered by 25%

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #109 on: May 26, 2014, 04:23:21 am »
What about replacing some ammo?

Im suggesting Straight up replacing greased with injection, Burst with Proximity, Charged with Lungs and Dragon.

Cus #realtalk ammo like greased and burst and charged and 2 others or 1 are very close to being default ammo like.
Having more specific ammo may make more gunner slots more desirable. As ive stated in the Design Paradigm, Game balance, and Gunner vs Engineer topic.

Just wanted to make it clear and question it here. How much do we take away if we replace greased with injection etc etc.
For what i think, starting off with Heavy clip ona  standard Pyra would be pretty vital as you then get every gattling shot in from max range. Until the gattling starts reloading, you can place in injection which then will take down the hull.



If so, greased, charge, burst, whatever can become something new in the future.

Offline Milevan Faent

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #110 on: May 26, 2014, 09:58:23 am »
What about replacing some ammo?

Im suggesting Straight up replacing greased with injection, Burst with Proximity, Charged with Lungs and Dragon.

Cus #realtalk ammo like greased and burst and charged and 2 others or 1 are very close to being default ammo like.
Having more specific ammo may make more gunner slots more desirable. As ive stated in the Design Paradigm, Game balance, and Gunner vs Engineer topic.

Just wanted to make it clear and question it here. How much do we take away if we replace greased with injection etc etc.
For what i think, starting off with Heavy clip ona  standard Pyra would be pretty vital as you then get every gattling shot in from max range. Until the gattling starts reloading, you can place in injection which then will take down the hull.



If so, greased, charge, burst, whatever can become something new in the future.

Why did everyone keep thinking the ammo was called Lungs? It was LUGS, not Lungs, and now it's Slugs, because no one can read XD

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #111 on: May 26, 2014, 12:26:49 pm »
Slungs?

Offline AceHangman

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #112 on: May 26, 2014, 04:16:11 pm »
Concussion rounds
Lowers damage by 50%, increases clip size 25%.

Any characters caught within the AoE/Burst radius of the shot have a 25% chance to be pushed to the edge of it, possibly off the ship.
This does not affect any character on the helm or on a gun, as they are considered anchored or holding on.  This means that engineers will be affected most often as they're typically the ones running around deck banging on things.

It should come with a distinctive sound, either when it 'procs' and pushes someone or while being fired to differentiate the skipping and jumping of the character from lag.  It should not work with the flamer as that uses particles that pass through everything, but even with the gatlin it could be useful since, despite the small burst from the rounds, multiple hits could still jostle a character unnervingly while trying to aim their tools.

This leads to a new passive equipment called, Safety harness, which prevents being moved by concussion rounds and also halves the falling time it takes before respawning when falling off a ship (regardless of whether it was caused by concussion effects or just falling off.)  As for whether it should by Pilot gear (which breaks a paradigm of only spotting equipment being usable off the helm) or Engineer gear is up for debate, I think it should be pilot gear since it would give a real choice between spyglass or not and engineers basically need their own slots for actual tools.

Offline Milevan Faent

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #113 on: May 26, 2014, 04:20:55 pm »
Concussion rounds
Lowers damage by 50%, increases clip size 25%.

Any characters caught within the AoE/Burst radius of the shot have a 25% chance to be pushed to the edge of it, possibly off the ship.
This does not affect any character on the helm or on a gun, as they are considered anchored or holding on.  This means that engineers will be affected most often as they're typically the ones running around deck banging on things.

It should come with a distinctive sound, either when it 'procs' and pushes someone or while being fired to differentiate the skipping and jumping of the character from lag.  It should not work with the flamer as that uses particles that pass through everything, but even with the gatlin it could be useful since, despite the small burst from the rounds, multiple hits could still jostle a character unnervingly while trying to aim their tools.

This leads to a new passive equipment called, Safety harness, which prevents being moved by concussion rounds and also halves the falling time it takes before respawning when falling off a ship (regardless of whether it was caused by concussion effects or just falling off.)  As for whether it should by Pilot gear (which breaks a paradigm of only spotting equipment being usable off the helm) or Engineer gear is up for debate, I think it should be pilot gear since it would give a real choice between spyglass or not and engineers basically need their own slots for actual tools.

A tool that did this kind of thing would have to lower the damage by as much as 75%, and have other negative effects. The DPC or DPS of such a clip should be noticeably lower than other ammo types due to the sheer problems it can cause. That said, I don't think it's a good idea. I can't imagine it would feel fun to be on the receiving end of it.

Offline AceHangman

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #114 on: May 26, 2014, 04:59:37 pm »
Quote
That said, I don't think it's a good idea.  I can't imagine it would feel fun to be on the receiving end of it.
Oh... gosh.  I'm sorry.  I didn't realize that in the entire history of the world in warfare and weapons design this is the criteria we established for weaponry; whether the target enjoys it.

Obviously the numbers are workable, but since it's only based off burst radius (of which each weapon has a different one and they can't be boosted with burst rounds since you'd be using these rounds) then you'd need a sizable round, that burst next to a character ( a hard target to hit since most weapons with appreciable burst have garbage accuracy for human-sized targets) and then there's only a 25% chance it pushes them to the edge, of the burst (and most places on a ship your can't fall off even if you tried jumping.)

I sure don't enjoy being on the receiving end of a flamethrower barrage, but it's there, serving it's purpose.  When I think of starting multiple fires on a ship and making engineers sweat and run around trying to time their extinguishers with the repair swings of other engineers their discomfort makes me smile.

I didn't realize this thread was for 'comforting' suggestions on ammo.  Perhaps you prefer the Barrel of Monkeys round?  If it strikes the hull, dozens of tiny monkey avatars cover the ship, racing back and forth and covering the eyes of any gunners.  Hilarity ensues.
Or you prefer to use the Two-ply rounds, so not only can those pirates trying to rob your ship, rape your female crew members, and plunder your wreckage enjoy the decorative streamers coming off their ship they can be soothed by the light scent of aloe?

Also, if you don't like the risk that one gunner might be choosing to fire substandard rounds just to annoy you, take the Safety harness tool and laugh all day long as not a damn thing happens to you and you easily fix all the piddly damage being done with a simple spanner tool.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 05:02:56 pm by AceHangman »

Offline Milevan Faent

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #115 on: May 26, 2014, 05:23:08 pm »
Quote
That said, I don't think it's a good idea.  I can't imagine it would feel fun to be on the receiving end of it.
Oh... gosh.  I'm sorry.  I didn't realize that in the entire history of the world in warfare and weapons design this is the criteria we established for weaponry; whether the target enjoys it.

Obviously the numbers are workable, but since it's only based off burst radius (of which each weapon has a different one and they can't be boosted with burst rounds since you'd be using these rounds) then you'd need a sizable round, that burst next to a character ( a hard target to hit since most weapons with appreciable burst have garbage accuracy for human-sized targets) and then there's only a 25% chance it pushes them to the edge, of the burst (and most places on a ship your can't fall off even if you tried jumping.)

I sure don't enjoy being on the receiving end of a flamethrower barrage, but it's there, serving it's purpose.  When I think of starting multiple fires on a ship and making engineers sweat and run around trying to time their extinguishers with the repair swings of other engineers their discomfort makes me smile.

I didn't realize this thread was for 'comforting' suggestions on ammo.  Perhaps you prefer the Barrel of Monkeys round?  If it strikes the hull, dozens of tiny monkey avatars cover the ship, racing back and forth and covering the eyes of any gunners.  Hilarity ensues.
Or you prefer to use the Two-ply rounds, so not only can those pirates trying to rob your ship, rape your female crew members, and plunder your wreckage enjoy the decorative streamers coming off their ship they can be soothed by the light scent of aloe?

... it's not a matter of it being enjoyable to the target. It's a matter of if it's so annoying people will just up and quit because of it. Things that take away control of your character are ALWAYS going to be annoying as hell. You aren't looking at the full effects your ammo would have. Say I take your ammo and apply it to Hades. As it stands, using the numbers you've given, you've created a weapon that 1) deals a decent (not great, but decent) amount of damage, 2) has 10 shots, and 3) will quite likely hit enough times against the hull that even if it doesn't knock the people off, quite likely prevented them from saving the ship ANYWAY. And with the Artemis it's even worse, as the Artemis is more accurate, while still having a decent AoE.

You would HAVE to include a counter to this, as it's that powerful, and that counter would then become NECESSARY on everyone but the pilot. This means no more spotting. A gunner still has to move around enough that they'll be knocked around occasionally, and any time that happens, they're being prevented from getting on a gun, which means they'll be stopped from doing anything. Flamers are a pain but they're something that can be dealt with in a variety of ways (the easiest of which is to stay away from said flamer and it's short-as-heck range). This has no easy counter without sacrificing something important. I can't see it adding anything positive to the game, and a lot of negative things to it.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #116 on: May 26, 2014, 07:33:02 pm »
Mines and Lumberjack using that effect on players... No. End of discussion.

Offline AceHangman

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #117 on: May 26, 2014, 09:20:42 pm »
Other than the potential of it being unbalanced, which everything has the potential to be, I'm not seeing the Armageddon you're describing.  This is a thread for ideas, if the numbers don't work, they can be tweaked, if the burst radius on weapons turns out too large, the rounds can reduce burst size.

Quote
Say I take your ammo and apply it to Hades.
As for your Hades example, you've taken one of the heaviest weapons with a large burst radius (which is obviously what this ammo would work well with, not a Mercury Field Gun), which just so happens to fall in an arc which, except at close range will almost always drop on the balloon (where no one will ever be.)  Even if you did hit the hull, you would have to catch a character in the effect range, and they would have to be unattached to a gun or helm (which even engineers can man).  Furthermore, there is never a guarantee that it does anything at all.  Even if you were say that 1 out 4 shots definitely moves a person (and that would be untrue) there's no guarantee that they they're blown off the ship or even that it had no effect on their performance because they were in a 6 to 9 second round time from just hitting a component with wrench or mallet and thus able to realign with no effect of their performance.  Also, if your gunner is dropping 4 mortar rounds dead on where it would catch the same area, then they're a crack shot or you're right against the enemy and you should be going for damage.

As for hindering a gunner; against this ammo, a gunner is actually less likely to ever be unattached from their weapon since these rounds would cause reduced damage to the gun they're on, meaning they're less likely to get thrown off when it's destroyed or spend more time unattached repairing the damage, since it would take half as many swings to fix any damage, and that's just using a -50% damage example.  And that's before even factoring in a 3 in 4 chance that the round does not even affect them.

Mines and Lumberjack using that effect on players... No. End of discussion.
Sorry, no.  Assuming that it takes 4 hits to 'proc' the 25% chance of Concussion, then your ship just flew into 4 mines.  You've got a lot more to complain about and it has nothing to do with this ammo type.  Even then, you've only taken the damage of hitting two mines.  Also, this ammo has no affect on the mine launcher's clip size since it fires one mine at a time.  I don't even think you could try and hit 4 mores on purpose to make your example even valid.  If your assertion is that your opponent is able to pinpoint 4 mines into your flight path through sheer skill then they would be using normal rounds for a kill, not these, which are a delaying/attrition tactic.

As for the Lumberjack, that's a primarily balloon disabling weapon.  Since it's highly unlikely anyone's standing on the balloon, only a hit on the underside of the balloon might affect someone (depending on ship configuration)  Since mortars arc down they're more likely to land atop or along the side of the balloon.  There's a chance you might claim you could cruise under and fire upwards to catch the target as the mortar rises but then you're likely getting within the range where the mortar has no AoE.  But taking it to the extreme, that you're an expert marksman and do land a mortar on the hull and it has a burst radius... Great!  That's what this ammo is for.  Except you just did 50% of the already low direct damage of the weapon to hulls and components (and cut it's phenomenal damage against balloons to half) and have a 1 in 4 chance that maybe an enemy crewman get skipped a meter or two over assuming they weren't manning a gun.  Sure, the potential is there but the weapons you're using as an example wouldn't be better off than normal rounds.

In fact, in almost all cases, it's better to use normal rounds than these, which are way less efficient except in a few cases where they might work well.  But since those cases are quite rare or unlikely, that means classes other than Gunners can't risk taking this ammo as their one option.  Which means, this ammo type is exactly the kind of example of something only a Gunner might be able to bring to table in a crew.  And if it turns out it's not useful, they still have their other two ammo types or normal as always.

That's the point of the thread.  There's obviously testing going on and things can get tweaked.  I don't know why you would assume that any idea is just going to be tossed into the game slipshod.  Other than a claim that 'It takes away character choice!' (Like your choice not wear a safety harness on a flying brick tethered to a gas-filled balloon.)  Everything else is able to be tested and tweaked.  As for, '...taking spotters away.'  There really isn't any reason not to take the Spyglass (rangefinder being the only option.)  This actually adds another choice for anyone other than the pilot (which is everyone else.)

Offline Milevan Faent

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #118 on: May 26, 2014, 10:53:59 pm »
Other than the potential of it being unbalanced, which everything has the potential to be, I'm not seeing the Armageddon you're describing.  This is a thread for ideas, if the numbers don't work, they can be tweaked, if the burst radius on weapons turns out too large, the rounds can reduce burst size.

Quote
Say I take your ammo and apply it to Hades.
As for your Hades example, you've taken one of the heaviest weapons with a large burst radius (which is obviously what this ammo would work well with, not a Mercury Field Gun), which just so happens to fall in an arc which, except at close range will almost always drop on the balloon (where no one will ever be.)  Even if you did hit the hull, you would have to catch a character in the effect range, and they would have to be unattached to a gun or helm (which even engineers can man).  Furthermore, there is never a guarantee that it does anything at all.  Even if you were say that 1 out 4 shots definitely moves a person (and that would be untrue) there's no guarantee that they they're blown off the ship or even that it had no effect on their performance because they were in a 6 to 9 second round time from just hitting a component with wrench or mallet and thus able to realign with no effect of their performance.  Also, if your gunner is dropping 4 mortar rounds dead on where it would catch the same area, then they're a crack shot or you're right against the enemy and you should be going for damage.

As for hindering a gunner; against this ammo, a gunner is actually less likely to ever be unattached from their weapon since these rounds would cause reduced damage to the gun they're on, meaning they're less likely to get thrown off when it's destroyed or spend more time unattached repairing the damage, since it would take half as many swings to fix any damage, and that's just using a -50% damage example.  And that's before even factoring in a 3 in 4 chance that the round does not even affect them.

Mines and Lumberjack using that effect on players... No. End of discussion.
Sorry, no.  Assuming that it takes 4 hits to 'proc' the 25% chance of Concussion, then your ship just flew into 4 mines.  You've got a lot more to complain about and it has nothing to do with this ammo type.  Even then, you've only taken the damage of hitting two mines.  Also, this ammo has no affect on the mine launcher's clip size since it fires one mine at a time.  I don't even think you could try and hit 4 mores on purpose to make your example even valid.  If your assertion is that your opponent is able to pinpoint 4 mines into your flight path through sheer skill then they would be using normal rounds for a kill, not these, which are a delaying/attrition tactic.

As for the Lumberjack, that's a primarily balloon disabling weapon.  Since it's highly unlikely anyone's standing on the balloon, only a hit on the underside of the balloon might affect someone (depending on ship configuration)  Since mortars arc down they're more likely to land atop or along the side of the balloon.  There's a chance you might claim you could cruise under and fire upwards to catch the target as the mortar rises but then you're likely getting within the range where the mortar has no AoE.  But taking it to the extreme, that you're an expert marksman and do land a mortar on the hull and it has a burst radius... Great!  That's what this ammo is for.  Except you just did 50% of the already low direct damage of the weapon to hulls and components (and cut it's phenomenal damage against balloons to half) and have a 1 in 4 chance that maybe an enemy crewman get skipped a meter or two over assuming they weren't manning a gun.  Sure, the potential is there but the weapons you're using as an example wouldn't be better off than normal rounds.

In fact, in almost all cases, it's better to use normal rounds than these, which are way less efficient except in a few cases where they might work well.  But since those cases are quite rare or unlikely, that means classes other than Gunners can't risk taking this ammo as their one option.  Which means, this ammo type is exactly the kind of example of something only a Gunner might be able to bring to table in a crew.  And if it turns out it's not useful, they still have their other two ammo types or normal as always.

That's the point of the thread.  There's obviously testing going on and things can get tweaked.  I don't know why you would assume that any idea is just going to be tossed into the game slipshod.  Other than a claim that 'It takes away character choice!' (Like your choice not wear a safety harness on a flying brick tethered to a gas-filled balloon.)  Everything else is able to be tested and tweaked.  As for, '...taking spotters away.'  There really isn't any reason not to take the Spyglass (rangefinder being the only option.)  This actually adds another choice for anyone other than the pilot (which is everyone else.)

Okay, so I don't have the time to read and reply to all of this, but I didn't notice when you mentioned it only has a 25% chance to go off. That partially removes the problem, but creates another one that I personally don't like. RNG is annoying. I've never really liked my fate being decided by RNG. Flame stacks use RNG, but most of the time it's very predictable anyway (flamers proc so many times per second it's going to get multiple stacks easy, Banshee has a high enough proc chance that you're going to get a decent number of fires going, and so on).

Also, in the case of the Hades, I've seen Hades hit the hull more often than the balloon actually. Just my personal experience in the game. Is it accurate? No, but you only need 1 or 2 lucky shots to pretty much ensure that an enemy ship dies. I can't say I'd ever view this concept as balanced or good. I simply don't like it.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« Reply #119 on: May 27, 2014, 12:06:48 am »
The flamer would be ridiculous.

Balance aside, this would probably be amazingly hard to implement on Muse's side and would honestly be found by most to be more annoying than game enhancing.