1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE

[-Mad Maverick-]

Well, post hot fix I'm a little concerned. The dps is certainly higher than post patch, but also higher than pre-patch as well.
Against armor:

pre-patch: 85 dmg/s (against armor, while firing) (60 dmg/s including reload)
post-patch: 66.25 dmg/s (while firing) (50.47 dmg/s including reload)
post-hotfix: 108.65 dmg/s (while firing) (72.43 dmg/s including reload) (Also appears to be 8.2 bullets a second and not 8.3, but my timing could be off)

It used to take 12 seconds to empty the clip, then after the damage drop and clip size increased it took 16; now it only takes 10.


I'm not entirely sure what happened there. The gun is now more accurate and strips armor faster than before; although the range is still less than pre-patch.

EXACTLY!!! you MUST be MUCH closer but you actually get rewarded now! it is perfect!!  i am sooo happy about this patch it is giving me tingles!

the best part? you have to WORK to keep that DPS up!  without buff and the right ammo you will be severely underwhelming with your DPS. 

this patch is doing what i have been hoping for since beta! specializing load-outs and making you work for the benefits! now close range is OP but only at close range and when you have spec'ed for it! for instance greased seems to be the best option at the moment which cuts your range even more! but it makes it far more devastating, but you have terrible turn arc and awful range!  im so freaking pumped!

[Wundsalz]

[2 cents]I don't like 1.3.3. You've ruined brawling. Whatever your intentions have been when changing the balance, I think you've overshot quite a bit.
Frankly I'd like to see you guys stepping back to 1.3.2, which has been provided the best GoI experience by far for me, and evolve from there[/2cents]

[Captain Smollett]

Do these sentiments include the recent hotfix? 

I haven't really had a chance to check it out yet and curious if this is a reaction to that as well.

[Wundsalz]

No, I wasn't able to play today. I wonder how The gat change feels now - the numbers suggest it might be useful again when facehugging your opponent. Judging based on the changelog I do not see my major concern with the 1.3.3 sufficiently addressed though - the severe meddling with those weapons which have been efficient on mid-close range prior to the patch. With the significant nerf of both dps and range of gat, carro and mortar I really can't think of a build I feel comfortable with anymore when I'm in the mood for mid-close range brawls, which was the most joyful way to play GoI prior to the patch, imo.

[Dutch Vanya]

I really can't think of a build I feel comfortable with anymore when I'm in the mood for mid-close range brawls, which was the most joyful way to play GoI prior to the patch, imo.

Well isn't that a good reason to try new builds? That seems to be the whole point of these balancing chages, and i can tell you that without knowing the numbers, the gat seemed pretty useful again today.

[The Djinn]

Do these sentiments include the recent hotfix? 

The recent hotfix really helped cement the Gatling as a close-range armor shredder. It's brutally efficient at it: it actually gained DPS over it's old form, I believe, and heavy is no longer a requirement for maximum range shots.

As a result, it really does feel like a brawling gun: close range, devastating firepower against armor, but pretty ineffective at longer ranges.

I'm fully on board with the changes now.

[Spud Nick]

Brawlers have there dps back. Try a buffed greased gatling gun and watch the fireworks.

[Thomas]

I feel the gat correction was way overdone. It's essentially a laser now, melting armor insanely fast.

Pre-patch was 10 piercing/10 shatter, 5 bullets/s, 60 rounds (85 dmg/s against armor)
Post hotfix is 7.5 piercing/10 shatter, 8.2 bullets/s, 82 rounds (108.65 dmg/s against armor)

It would take just about the whole clip on a vanilla gat to destroy the pyra armor, even with someone fixing the ship. The same holds true now, but takes a few seconds less.
Then if you use greased rounds, you could take that time down to about 9 seconds. Now if you used greased with the post hot fix gat, you can bring the time down to just under 7 seconds.

Here's a short video of it in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnOV3THPSac

You can see them nuke down a pyra (with the help of their ally) then a galleon (a lot less help from their ally) and finally another pyra (all by themselves) in less than 2 minutes. Be aware that this is a highly skilled team, using greased rounds on the gat and buffing their guns (bringing the dps up to 166.88 dmg/s; and the time to kill the hull while someone is repairing it to just around 5 seconds.)

The old dps felt too high, and the last patch felt a little low, but these new numbers feel a little too intense. If you start getting hit first, you have almost no chance to maneuver away or recover.

[-Mad Maverick-]

I feel the gat correction was way overdone. It's essentially a laser now, melting armor insanely fast.

Pre-patch was 10 piercing/10 shatter, 5 bullets/s, 60 rounds (85 dmg/s against armor)
Post hotfix is 7.5 piercing/10 shatter, 8.2 bullets/s, 82 rounds (108.65 dmg/s against armor)

It would take just about the whole clip on a vanilla gat to destroy the pyra armor, even with someone fixing the ship. The same holds true now, but takes a few seconds less.
Then if you use greased rounds, you could take that time down to about 9 seconds. Now if you used greased with the post hot fix gat, you can bring the time down to just under 7 seconds.

Here's a short video of it in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnOV3THPSac

You can see them nuke down a pyra (with the help of their ally) then a galleon (a lot less help from their ally) and finally another pyra (all by themselves) in less than 2 minutes. Be aware that this is a highly skilled team, using greased rounds on the gat and buffing their guns (bringing the dps up to 166.88 dmg/s; and the time to kill the hull while someone is repairing it to just around 5 seconds.)

The old dps felt too high, and the last patch felt a little low, but these new numbers feel a little too intense. If you start getting hit first, you have almost no chance to maneuver away or recover.

yes it is true a shotgun to the chest at point blank will kill you faster than a hand gun will!   isn't that great!?!

it seems like you are upset that a close range weapon is good at close range, I am confuse by this complaint.   show me a vid of a spire with dub howitzer and a heavy flak.  are you gonna complain that it seems to be very powerful when it hits at range?

[The Djinn]

yes it is true a shotgun to the chest at point blank will kill you faster than a hand gun will!   isn't that great!?!

...this seems neither here nor there. Ships are not people, nor is Guns of Icarus balance a real-life firefight, so the metaphor rather falls apart. 

Thomas has a good point when he mentions that the damage jump is pretty absurd. Going from 85dps down to about 63dps and up to 109dps is a pretty huge shift.

It seemed okay during the few games I've played today (hence my earlier post), but I'll have to keep an eye on it. The buff does seem a bit on the high side, at least on paper, but I haven't had enough experience with it to determine if I think it actually seems that high in-game. I wasn't specifically looking for it today, so that's something I'll have to keep an eye out for.

it seems like you are upset that a close range weapon is good at close range, I am confuse by this complaint.

There's a difference between saying "it's powerful at close range" and "it's TOO powerful at close range." Thomas is very clearly saying that he's afraid the latter situation may have occurred.

[-Mad Maverick-]

the analogy is simply trying to point out that a point blank weapon should feel powerful, it should feel like putting a hole in somebody (like a shotgun).

you worked hard to close the distance, now that you have finally arrived you should be rewarded with DEVASTATING DPS. 

to argue against this concept feels weird.  It has been pointed out already how much more effective a LJ is than a caro and it can do it at triple the range.  see a caro should be close to as many times effective as the other has range.   because if i am sacrificing range i should receive DPS it only make sense! (or gain HP but cmon we are making things too complicated now!)

[The Djinn]

to argue against this concept feels weird....because if i am sacrificing range i should receive DPS it only make sense!

The argument is that the reward might be too great.

Exaggerated example: take a close-range gun. Make it deal 0 damage per shot. It's underpowered. Not make it deal 10,000 damage per shot. It's overpowered. Somewhere in the middle is a sweet spot where that gun's damage is roughly balanced. The trick is finding that spot, and it's possible that they've overshot it on the side of too much damage.

Arguing against the concept of something being overtuned to be too strong isn't weird: it's what balancing mechanics REQUIRES.

[-Mad Maverick-]

to argue against this concept feels weird....because if i am sacrificing range i should receive DPS it only make sense!

The argument is that the reward might be too great.

Exaggerated example: take a close-range gun. Make it deal 0 damage per shot. It's underpowered. Not make it deal 10,000 damage per shot. It's overpowered. Somewhere in the middle is a sweet spot where that gun's damage is roughly balanced. The trick is finding that spot, and it's possible that they've overshot it on the side of too much damage.

Arguing against the concept of something being overtuned to be too strong isn't weird: it's what balancing mechanics REQUIRES.

ok fair enough.  i thought it was obvious i was not arguing FOR "OP unbalance" but rather contradicting the idea.  since i see that i may not have communicated that very clearly allow me to restate things:

what im arguing is that; what he is complaining about is not "OP" but in fact simply balance,  a kill taking a shorter period of time to accomplish at short range than long is exactly what "balance" should call for.  if short range felt like it had EQUAL dps output as its ranged counter parts it would be unbalanced.  close combat weapons should have ALMOST the same ratio of DPS to RANGE that Long Range weapons have.  the more range that is given the less the DPS and vice a versa.  (either that or ships that are designed to be close range should be given a lot more HP but this approach would be more convoluted and confusing.)  so if the argument is that "a close range can kill in 10 seconds where it would take a long range 20" than it seems to me that the mechanic my actually be in the right place.

[zlater75@hotmail.com]

Have yet to try the gat but from the sounds of it with range still limited it is now a powerful brawling gun with accuracy.
What the damage feels like will have to be tested properly in many matches.

I'm glad if the wolves are happy about this. The gat and pyra seem to be their "thing". Maybe now they have a chance to lick their wounds and enjoy their gamestyle again. I wouldn't make changes right a way. it needs more time and more feedback. 

[Thomas]

Well the gat was too powerful and easy to use, hence the 'nerf' in the patch, reducing the range and damage, but increasing accuracy. This hot-fix basically countered that by making it hit even harder (more total damage per clip and higher dps), and made it even more accurate. If we're honest, range was never really an issue for the gat, ships would just charge in and start firing, continuing to close the distance until you could almost board the other ship. The range reduction just makes you wait a little longer before you start hitting them hard. But once you do get in that range, it's just shy of an insta-kill, especially in a high skill team.

In short; it feels too fast of a kill and made the patch more of a gatling buff than a nerf.