1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE

[-Mad Maverick-]

Well the gat was too powerful and easy to use, hence the 'nerf' in the patch, reducing the range and damage, but increasing accuracy. This hot-fix basically countered that by making it hit even harder (more total damage per clip and higher dps), and made it even more accurate. If we're honest, range was never really an issue for the gat, ships would just charge in and start firing, continuing to close the distance until you could almost board the other ship. The range reduction just makes you wait a little longer before you start hitting them hard. But once you do get in that range, it's just shy of an insta-kill, especially in a high skill team.

In short; it feels too fast of a kill and made the patch more of a gatling buff than a nerf.

not true, the range on the gat is a HUGE deal.  and it isnt a "little longer" it is TWICE as long!  Now, (because of how BA my gat gunners are) i have not stripped your hull at 700m i have to wait till 350M to even start firing! (because im using greased which only makes sense now) if you havent disabled me or killed me by the time i have arrived that is my piloting being rewarded vs your shooting/piloting which is how it should be.

(and it goes without mentioning just because i am now within range does not stop your hwachas, arts, mercs, etc, from disabling me, or you from turning your brawler side on me)

[-Mad Maverick-]

Have yet to try the gat but from the sounds of it with range still limited it is now a powerful brawling gun with accuracy.
What the damage feels like will have to be tested properly in many matches.

I'm glad if the wolves are happy about this. The gat and pyra seem to be their "thing". Maybe now they have a chance to lick their wounds and enjoy their gamestyle again. I wouldn't make changes right a way. it needs more time and more feedback. 

thanks man i hope i can rally the troops and convince them that we arent going to get back into the game only to see them nerf "us" again...

extremely close range killing "is our thing", and since at the moment the only viable method to do this is gat/mort that is what we use.   I would love if close range was given a new weapon, since we havent received anything new since month 3 of beta. 

I used to fly a goldfish with heavy flak and flamers before they were both overhauled and the goldie was nerfed.  then i used dub caro pyra until they changed the turning arc on it, then it was gat flak, and so on.  in short, it isnt gat/mort that we love it is the play style those guns are used for.

 give me new guns to play that way with and i will use them.

[Salous]

Well, this patch does feel better. I'm not going to lie, The Cohort did not play last week because of the patch. It was bad, and 2-3 hour long sniper matches are no fun for us.

This patch makes brawling fun again, the key word here is fun. Is it balanced? I don't know. I still don't think a good brawling team would be able to beat a good sniper team on most maps. Personally, I would like to see the old gat back, but I will take what I can get right now. This game is still not balanced, but if this is the way forward, lets keep on going and make sure that brawling can be a counter to sniping. Both should be viable, both should have their pros and cons.

P.S. While we're on the topic of "OP" weapons, lets start taking a look at the Lumberjack and Artemis. Lumberjack makes the carronades worthless, and Artemis...well, its makes just about every other gun worthless, at-least in the pug matches.

[Thomas]

Lumberjack is pretty wicked, but it takes practice and skill to aim it properly. It does take out the balloon incredibly easy, especially after it's popped at least once. On the other hand, it's absolutely useless up close. The artemis is a great gun as well, super easy to use and has a good disable and fair amount of explosive damage. But like the lumberjack, it also has a fatal weakness, in that it can't look up well. I've played some matches where it absolutely dominated, and other matches where it got shut down hard. It really depends on the enemy pilots skill at evading, avoiding, and ultimately closing distance/getting out of the arc.

All that being said, the most 'OP' ship I've come across (on certain maps) is the spire with a lumberjack and the rest artemis. It can sink a ship and keep it pinned down and disabled until it explodes. However, if they do engage at a close range the ship will go down pretty fast. So I'm not entirely sure if it really is OP or unbalanced. Depends on the opponents I guess, as well as the ability of the gunners.

[-Mad Maverick-]

Well, this patch does feel better. I'm not going to lie, The Cohort did not play last week because of the patch. It was bad, and 2-3 hour long sniper matches are no fun for us.

This patch makes brawling fun again, the key word here is fun. Is it balanced? I don't know. I still don't think a good brawling team would be able to beat a good sniper team on most maps. Personally, I would like to see the old gat back, but I will take what I can get right now. This game is still not balanced, but if this is the way forward, lets keep on going and make sure that brawling can be a counter to sniping. Both should be viable, both should have their pros and cons.

P.S. While we're on the topic of "OP" weapons, lets start taking a look at the Lumberjack and Artemis. Lumberjack makes the carronades worthless, and Artemis...well, its makes just about every other gun worthless, at-least in the pug matches.

i havent had enough highlevel matches yet to comment on long vs short range but if the snipers are still super devastating i wouldnt mind seeing a slight buff to either the inertia of the ram or the maneuverability of the pyra

[-Mad Maverick-]

one thing that i feel like hasnt been talked about yet... is it possible that the reason the usage stats are so skewed to brawlers (so im told since ive never seen the numbers) is simply because people like it better?  i mean that IS possible right?  and then it wouldnt be about OP it would simply be because people like fighting close and dirty...

[Wundsalz]

I really can't think of a build I feel comfortable with anymore when I'm in the mood for mid-close range brawls, which was the most joyful way to play GoI prior to the patch, imo.

Well isn't that a good reason to try new builds? That seems to be the whole point of these balancing chages, and i can tell you that without knowing the numbers, the gat seemed pretty useful again today.

The problem is that 1.3.3 basicly cut an entire type of play style rather than shifting balance between weapons. Those 200-300m which have been cut off from the gat/mortar combo have left a huge gap between the < 400m face hugging range and 600m+ mid-long range setups. That gap wasn't filled by any other weapon setup and hence outright muse limits my play style choices here.
Prior to the patch gat/mortar have been weapons which could be used to force ships with very close range weapons (<400m) to engage you if played defensively - very useful if you wanted to counter flamer/mine/carro intensive builds without going for a sniper build. Ultra aggressive ram tactics which the pyra has been used for are way less viable now as it's barely possible to strip the hull in time for a full-speed ram now. The patch has reduced the diversity of brawl builds.

Regarind the hotfix: It seems to have reintroduced gat/mortar as an efficient combo, but I can't help the feeling that it's now kind of dull to play compared to 1.3.2:
- >400m mortar shots with other ammo than lesmok required some skill - now aiming into the general direction of the target does the trick in most situations.
- the same goes for the gat. It was rare to see gats hitting reliably at distances >500m prior to 1.3.3 - but when they did you could really feel the difference.
- the gat/mortar combo required quite some communication between the two gunner (and the captain if you're on a ram eager pyra) in 1.3.2. the mortar needed precise timing to be utilized most efficiently - helping out with getting rid of the hull while ensuring that there are still enough rounds left to finish off the enemy once they're stripped. Cogs, Avalan and rumbles have provided a lot of video material showing that the combo actually has be quite hard to master. Now with the hot fix I think we weapons can be shot more independently - the mortar can't really help out with stripping anymore due to the reduced range and clip size and the gat does the stripping job more efficiently on its own now once you face hug your opponent. Overall I think the gat mortar combo has been dumped down quite a bit which makes in less fun to play, imo.

[-Mad Maverick-]

I really can't think of a build I feel comfortable with anymore when I'm in the mood for mid-close range brawls, which was the most joyful way to play GoI prior to the patch, imo.

Well isn't that a good reason to try new builds? That seems to be the whole point of these balancing chages, and i can tell you that without knowing the numbers, the gat seemed pretty useful again today.

The problem is that 1.3.3 basicly cut an entire type of play style rather than shifting balance between weapons. Those 200-300m which have been cut off from the gat/mortar combo have left a huge gap between the < 400m face hugging range and 600m+ mid-long range setups. That gap wasn't filled by any other weapon setup and hence outright muse limits my play style choices here.
Prior to the patch gat/mortar have been weapons which could be used to force ships with very close range weapons (<400m) to engage you if played defensively - very useful if you wanted to counter flamer/mine/carro intensive builds without going for a sniper build. Ultra aggressive ram tactics which the pyra has been used for are way less viable now as it's barely possible to strip the hull in time for a full-speed ram now. The patch has reduced the diversity of brawl builds.

Regarind the hotfix: It seems to have reintroduced gat/mortar as an efficient combo, but I can't help the feeling that it's now kind of dull to play compared to 1.3.2:
- >400m mortar shots with other ammo than lesmok required some skill - now aiming into the general direction of the target does the trick in most situations.
- the same goes for the gat. It was rare to see gats hitting reliably at distances >500m prior to 1.3.3 - but when they did you could really feel the difference.
- the gat/mortar combo required quite some communication between the two gunner (and the captain if you're on a ram eager pyra) in 1.3.2. the mortar needed precise timing to be utilized most efficiently - helping out with getting rid of the hull while ensuring that there are still enough rounds left to finish off the enemy once they're stripped. Cogs, Avalan and rumbles have provided a lot of video material showing that the combo actually has be quite hard to master. Now with the hot fix I think we weapons can be shot more independently - the mortar can't really help out with stripping anymore due to the reduced range and clip size and the gat does the stripping job more efficiently on its own now. Overall I think the gat mortar combo has been dumped down quite a bit which makes in less fun to play, imo.

i dont completely disagree with the "dumbed" down sentiment as now i can have anyone jump on the gat and as long as they listen to me to tell them when they are in range they are as good as anyone, where prior to the range nerf i felt a huge diff between my skilled wolf crew who could hit at max range and others.

with that being said i think the nerf on range does actually make a more varied game.  with flak/art hades/merc doing midrange brawling and the same things still good at long range the gat/mort now has a very specific and non-catchall role in the game.

[RearAdmiralZill]

because im using greased which only makes sense now

This is my only concern with current gatling. If at any point, one ammo becomes a requirement or using any other ammo is simply not good enough to warrant its use on a gun, something needs to change.

Those 200-300m which have been cut off from the gat/mortar combo have left a huge gap between the < 400m face hugging range and 600m+ mid-long range setups.

Hades/light flak.

Seriously, brawling is fine.

[-Mad Maverick-]

because im using greased which only makes sense now

This is my only concern with current gatling. If at any point, one ammo becomes a requirement or using any other ammo is simply not good enough to warrant its use on a gun, something needs to change.

Those 200-300m which have been cut off from the gat/mortar combo have left a huge gap between the < 400m face hugging range and 600m+ mid-long range setups.

Hades/light flak.

Seriously, brawling is fine.

first off I agree brawling is fine ATM.

but to your point that there shouldn't be a single ammo that a weapon should use;  for the most part I agree but when it comes to a weapon as one dimensional as the gat is right now I think it makes sense that there would be one maybe two ammo types.  it's super short range and it is very weak per shot with a huge clips it NEEDS to unload quickly.  there really isn't wiggle room on that.  now if you think we should give it more range like 700 and increase the jitter to say 3.5 hey I'd be down!  we could even decrease it's RoF man.  then we would have to choose between heavy clip and greased

[RearAdmiralZill]

Well if all he changed was the RoF and the jitter, then this is where the answer lies. That or greased ammo needs a look but that's a more drastic thought.

increased rate of fire to 8.3 bullets/s (from 5b/s),

Given that he went from a flat number to a decimal makes me think he's got math going on here. It's a fairly large jump and may prove to be too much. That said, 400m is short, and when fighting a boat with gats, using that to your advantage is a given.

I'm sure many people will cringe when I say, but I've always been surprised that greased ammo didn't increase jitter by a small margin. Shoot faster typically means more recoil, in our case jitter. This effects many guns though so it's again rather drastic to ponder.

[-Mad Maverick-]

Well if all he changed was the RoF and the jitter, then this is where the answer lies. That or greased ammo needs a look but that's a more drastic thought.

increased rate of fire to 8.3 bullets/s (from 5b/s),

Given that he went from a flat number to a decimal makes me think he's got math going on here. It's a fairly large jump and may prove to be too much. That said, 400m is short, and when fighting a boat with gats, using that to your advantage is a given.

I'm sure many people will cringe when I say, but I've always been surprised that greased ammo didn't increase jitter by a small margin. Shoot faster typically means more recoil, in our case jitter. This effects many guns though so it's again rather drastic to ponder.

I think the rotation nerf you take does a decent job of forcing you to be more accurate.  think about it this way, because if you were missing more shots dude to increased jitter what would be the advantage after taking a damage penalty AND a rotation penalty?

[-Mad Maverick-]

I mean as you said "brawling is fine right now". let's agree and not mess anymore

[Captain Smollett]

increased rate of fire to 8.3 bullets/s (from 5b/s),

Given that he went from a flat number to a decimal makes me think he's got math going on here. It's a fairly large jump and may prove to be too much.

The math is simple. 8.3 shots per second means 83 shots in 10 seconds which precludes perfect engineering, even on a Galleon from getting in a second mallet hit and saving the hull from an armor break.

Also just to add my 2 cents, 400 M is hardly face hugging range.  To place it in perspective it's double the range of the flamethrower (which at 200M is just over face hugging range).

[-Mad Maverick-]

increased rate of fire to 8.3 bullets/s (from 5b/s),

Given that he went from a flat number to a decimal makes me think he's got math going on here. It's a fairly large jump and may prove to be too much.

The math is simple. 8.3 shots per second means 83 shots in 10 seconds which precludes perfect engineering, even on a Galleon from getting in a second mallet hit and saving the hull from an armor break.

Also just to add my 2 cents, 400 M is hardly face hugging range.  To place it in perspective it's double the range of the flamethrower (which at 200M is just over face hugging range).

yeah but with greased and the rate of speed at which you'll be approaching I'm sure face hugging is where you'll end up