Pyra being op?

[Zenark]

Fighting against a Pyra/Junker meta setup with a Blenderfish and Squid reinforces what Gambrill said. I'd tell my gunner to shoot both ships and keep them sinking while the Squid went around gatling/mortaring their faces. I didn't realize how easy it was to kill a Pyra from above. You can do damage to the armor and hull when they're below you where with a ship like the Junker, the balloon is almost like a shield. If you can get them on the ground, it's an easy kill.

[Locutus of borg]

I think what the pyra needs is a buff to its speed, and a nerf to its maneuverability.  My reasoning for this is not to simply nerf the ship but more specialize (just like all the other ships).  This change would make the pyra closer to a 'niche' ship for ramming and head on attacks, and less of a brawler (and overall tank), because the brawler niche is already filled by the junker  I believe that this would encourage clever helm skills and teamwork (as apposed to more pyras) to counter the metamydion, and give the pyramidion a unique identity thereby making it more satisfying to pilot.

The concept I poking at here is specialization, not just this specific buff

[N-Sunderland]

I've said this before and I'll say it again: nerfing the Pyramidion's turning speed, hull armour, or whatever will not stop it from dominating some pub matches as it currently does. The problem with the Pyramidion isn't that it's too powerful. At best it's the second-best ship in the game. The problem is that it's straightforward to crew on, so it's much easier to figure out how to run it effectively than a ship that would otherwise be better, like the Junker. Short of a fundamental layout change, there isn't really a means of making the ship less accessible to people. So how do we solve the problem? Take a look at another ship that's straightforward to crew on: the Goldfish. I remember when that thing was the go-to ship for newcomers. Why isn't it anymore? Because unlike the Pyra, which is both straightforward and very effective, the Goldfish is straightforward yet mildly effective (I'm sorry, but it's the sad truth about the ship right now, especially compared to how it used to be). So to bring the Goldfish more to the forefront, well, it could use a buff. I don't actually know what it could use specifically, but giving it some love could result in there being a little more diversity in pub matches. As for the other ships? Better tutorials. Teaching players and giving them a general idea of how to make a Junker work, for example, would go a long way to increasing usage of such ships in pub matches.

[Locutus of borg]

what i am suggesting is not a nerf to the pyra, I understand and completely agree with what you just said.  What I am suggesting is that we a find a way the SPECIALIZE the pyramidion (maybe as a ramming/charging ship)  This would give it a unique role making it a more interesting and satisfying ship to run

Every ship needs it role. right the pyra does everything.
my problem with pyra is not that it is op but instead that it is just no fun

[N-Sunderland]

I understand that, but I still don't see much good coming out of it, to be honest. In pub matches, it'd still be the main brawler unless its turning was practically removed. They've tried nerfing its turning speed, acceleration, and vertical acceleration before while also making it one of the fastest ships, and none of it made it more specialized. It continued to be used as an all-out brawler. At a competitive level (not that that's a huge priority for Muse), it'd likely just get replaced entirely by the Junker.

Actually, what you said highlights a very big problem with the game right now.

Killing outright is better than just about anything else. That's the reason why gat/mortar, the Pyra, the Junker, and the Galleon are so good, whereas Goldfishes, carronade-flamer combos, and specialized ramming builds aren't. Any ship that can bring a piercing-explosive combo and has the stats to back it up will be effective. The Spire can bring piercing-explosive, but it'll die the moment a fly lands on it. On the other hand, the Junker can bring piercing-explosive and can take hits well. The Goldfish can survive longer than most other ships, but it's held back by the fact that it can only reliably get one gun on a target at any given time.

So that's something to think about: if we want more diversity in this game, maybe it's time to look at bringing back disablers and support ships.

[Gambrill]

You say that sunderland but they HAVE buffed Flame based weapons and ammo to the point that fire is now almost as deadly as flapping your arse cheeks in a jet engine. and we all know that the carronade is more than effective. all i could suggest in this point is maybe make the ships heavier? fall a bit quicker? increasing the mortars reload speed or lowering its fire rate slightly might be a suggestion too. i mean as gunner theres nothing i love more than greased rounds on a mortar. but even i know that im going to get a kill as long as my pilot stays on track.

Gambrill's Fav weapons + Ammo combo

Banshee + Greased           (Enjoy the firework show)
Flamer + Greased              (Enjoy the quick stacks)
Mortar + Greased               (Enjoy the Splodey)
Manticore + Greased          (see mortar)
Barking Dog + Greased      (Goodbye baloon)
Heavy Carronade + Charged              (ballon and engines are doomed)
Other Weps + anything            (Meh)

Yeah just call me Greasy Gambrill  :/ 

[Echoez]

Killing outright is better than just about anything else. That's the reason why gat/mortar, the Pyra, the Junker, and the Galleon are so good, whereas Goldfishes, carronade-flamer combos, and specialized ramming builds aren't. Any ship that can bring a piercing-explosive combo and has the stats to back it up will be effective. The Spire can bring piercing-explosive, but it'll die the moment a fly lands on it. On the other hand, the Junker can bring piercing-explosive and can take hits well. The Goldfish can survive longer than most other ships, but it's held back by the fact that it can only reliably get one gun on a target at any given time.

So that's something to think about: if we want more diversity in this game, maybe it's time to look at bringing back disablers and support ships.

Quite, I have to fully agree with this.

It's one of the reasons I switched from the Hellhound to the Hwacha on my Goldy after all, since I was locked to using that and only that, while the long reload of the Hwacha allowed for some broadside gunning which helped a lot.

[Nidh]

Killing outright is better than just about anything else. That's the reason why gat/mortar, the Pyra, the Junker, and the Galleon are so good, whereas Goldfishes, carronade-flamer combos, and specialized ramming builds aren't. Any ship that can bring a piercing-explosive combo and has the stats to back it up will be effective. The Spire can bring piercing-explosive, but it'll die the moment a fly lands on it. On the other hand, the Junker can bring piercing-explosive and can take hits well. The Goldfish can survive longer than most other ships, but it's held back by the fact that it can only reliably get one gun on a target at any given time.

So that's something to think about: if we want more diversity in this game, maybe it's time to look at bringing back disablers and support ships.

Quite, I have to fully agree with this.

It's one of the reasons I switched from the Hellhound to the Hwacha on my Goldy after all, since I was locked to using that and only that, while the long reload of the Hwacha allowed for some broadside gunning which helped a lot.

You can get a bifecta with the Heavy Carronade + Artemis

[Echoez]

Killing outright is better than just about anything else. That's the reason why gat/mortar, the Pyra, the Junker, and the Galleon are so good, whereas Goldfishes, carronade-flamer combos, and specialized ramming builds aren't. Any ship that can bring a piercing-explosive combo and has the stats to back it up will be effective. The Spire can bring piercing-explosive, but it'll die the moment a fly lands on it. On the other hand, the Junker can bring piercing-explosive and can take hits well. The Goldfish can survive longer than most other ships, but it's held back by the fact that it can only reliably get one gun on a target at any given time.

So that's something to think about: if we want more diversity in this game, maybe it's time to look at bringing back disablers and support ships.

Quite, I have to fully agree with this.

It's one of the reasons I switched from the Hellhound to the Hwacha on my Goldy after all, since I was locked to using that and only that, while the long reload of the Hwacha allowed for some broadside gunning which helped a lot.

You can get a bifecta with the Heavy Carronade + Artemis

It's at the very tip of both gun arcs, very hard to keep it active, it's easier with a Banshee, but those are the only guns that can overlap and I guess I can't be arsed to hold the ship at the very edge of both my firing arcs just to get this bi-fecta, it's realy not worth the extra trouble 90% of the time.

Plus the Artemis doesn't help all that much, I mean, I'm better off going a Carronade/Artemis Squid if that's what I wanna do and I will be faster, plus the Light carronade has more total damage than the Heavy one, it's simply not beneficial or easy to get a bi-fecta on a Goldfish since most gun arcs can't overlap reliably, so I found it easier to just use a Hwacha and use the spare time to point the broadside gun on them.

Now if the side guns were turned 45 degrees forward there would be a lot more you could do with your broadsides... eh, a man can dream.

[Nidh]

Killing outright is better than just about anything else. That's the reason why gat/mortar, the Pyra, the Junker, and the Galleon are so good, whereas Goldfishes, carronade-flamer combos, and specialized ramming builds aren't. Any ship that can bring a piercing-explosive combo and has the stats to back it up will be effective. The Spire can bring piercing-explosive, but it'll die the moment a fly lands on it. On the other hand, the Junker can bring piercing-explosive and can take hits well. The Goldfish can survive longer than most other ships, but it's held back by the fact that it can only reliably get one gun on a target at any given time.

So that's something to think about: if we want more diversity in this game, maybe it's time to look at bringing back disablers and support ships.

Quite, I have to fully agree with this.

It's one of the reasons I switched from the Hellhound to the Hwacha on my Goldy after all, since I was locked to using that and only that, while the long reload of the Hwacha allowed for some broadside gunning which helped a lot.

You can get a bifecta with the Heavy Carronade + Artemis

It's at the very tip of both gun arcs, very hard to keep it active, it's easier with a Banshee, but those are the only guns that can overlap and I guess I can't be arsed to hold the ship at the very edge of both my firing arcs just to get this bi-fecta, it's realy not worth the extra trouble 90% of the time.

Plus the Artemis doesn't help all that much, I mean, I'm better off going a Carronade/Artemis Squid if that's what I wanna do and I will be faster, plus the Light carronade has more total damage than the Heavy one, it's simply not beneficial or easy to get a bi-fecta on a Goldfish since most gun arcs can't overlap reliably, so I found it easier to just use a Hwacha and use the spare time to point the broadside gun on them.

Now if the side guns were turned 45 degrees forward there would be a lot more you could do with your broadsides... eh, a man can dream.

If you say so. I find it quite easy since there is a marker for the bifecta point, the "V" ropes above the throttle in first person is where you want to aim. Also, The Heavy Carronade + Heavy Clip = Balloon down in 1 clip. The Artemis can disable engines and Heavy weapons while you take their balloon and armor down, plus it has explosive to help with the kill. I would argue that your not supposed to be looking for kills with a Goldfish anyway, just trying to give your ally an edge over them.

[Locutus of borg]

After sunderland's repeated pounding of the idea into my apparently thick skull I think I finnally get it.  The fundamental problem is that the prolonged multi-stage battle is no longer practical.  i.e. why pop a ships ballon and then kill them when you could just kill them twice as fast?
without the eloquent wording I believe that is the point he is trying to make, and I (in a rather defeated manner) musty say I agree.  I think we need to find a way to bring the disabler back, the affect of this hopefully being that teamwork and stratedgy could take a jump to a whole new level and maybe we could see longer, multidimensional battles.

[Nidh]

Hwacha - Goldfish used to be an amazing disabler until the Heavy Clip change. Imo Hwacha Goldfish is no longer as viable. But even back when Heavy wasn't changed the Goldfish and Galleon were the only true "support" ships. Right now the Heavy Carronade Goldfish imo is the only Brawler-Support ship that can disable a ship effectively. All other "support" style play is mostly Snipers with Lumberjacks or Hwacha - Goldfish, but again, imo Hwacha Goldfish is no longer as big a threat as it used to be.

So... yes, support play needs a buff. I've sent Muse an e-mail regarding this, and they have told me it's being worked on and experiments are going down trying to make it more viable.

[Echoez]

If you say so. I find it quite easy since there is a marker for the bifecta point, the "V" ropes above the throttle in first person is where you want to aim. Also, The Heavy Carronade + Heavy Clip = Balloon down in 1 clip. The Artemis can disable engines and Heavy weapons while you take their balloon and armor down, plus it has explosive to help with the kill. I would argue that your not supposed to be looking for kills with a Goldfish anyway, just trying to give your ally an edge over them.

Nidh plis, I showed you how that carronade works, I'm fully aware of what it's capable of as I've been running it since 1.2 before any changes to Heavy. ( I still miss old Lochnagar.. )

The 45 degree arc change was just a silly idea I had because me and Sunderland had a discussion going about how to 'buff' the Goldfish, aka how to break the ship.

Anyway, both weapons do their own thing, Heavy is realy crap from close range on a Hwacha now, can't count the times we had a 0 disable barrage cause of all the rounds hitting the same empty spot, ammo switching needs to be done in advanace and it requires more timing and precision than before, which is kinda detrimental to this gun since the long reload time and the chances of it getting disabled and loading the wrong rounds is high.

I also know about the V ropes and the place behind the altimeter, Artemis can't have a perfect bifecta with some angles, tested it a lot beforehand, but it is still one of the most viable Blenderfish side guns, which is why I ran two of these on Cogs (and not 2 harpoons for those that watched the stream > .>)

An other thing is, the smaller clip the hwacha has with Heavy Clip reduced it's killing power with Heavy by a lot, so long range kills are much harder.

[Nidh]

It's just not that hard to keep the bifecta is all I'm saying, and in my experience it is very much worth having a buffed Artemis on the side. In fact, I tell the buff-engie to ignore the front gun and just buff the Artemis, buffing the Heavy Carronade wastes too much time imo. But that's besides the point. I agree with you guys that 2-killing ships outshine the support roles, and it's being worked on.

[Captain Smollett]

Honestly I'm not convinced outright killing heavily outshines disabling; to be certain it's definitely the meta right now, and I think that's likely due to it being easier and more gratifying to make the quick kill.  But disabling in my opinion is just as effective.

Also, just as a side note, Muse can't really make disabling too good, because anytime something is really effective at disabling it really draws down the fun factor for new players.  For example look through the forum and see the bajillion of posts regarding the old artemis, the old carronades or the current lumberjack and manticore.