Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: bullethose on August 13, 2013, 08:46:05 am
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All of its weaknesses can easily be fixed with the pilot tools and engie tools I guess, It has the most shielded balloon in the game and of course it strengths and the fact as I said before all of it's weaknesses can be fixed with the tools. If you won't agree one is op can you at least agree two are.
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The problem is the statement "weaknesses are fixed by pilot tools" goes for all of the ships.
Galleon turning slow? Pop claw, and get those guns on the enemy!
I suggest you try new strategies, like disabling weapons and engines. Also I've had luck going at the Pyra's balloon from the side.
Really though, if you don't let them point their front at you it's not difficult to do some real damage to them.
I will admit that with the recent patch Pyra's got a huge buff on their gun arcs. Nothing can be done about that, it fixes more issues than it creates.
If you want to argue that it's op you are going to need to give a bit more info! What tactics are you using? What guns are mounted on your ship and the Pyra? What maps are you playing on? Is you ally helping you, or just chillin'? Remember this is a team game of rather high complexity. You can't expect every weapon combination to be good against every ship all of the time. You need to adapt your play style to the ally and enemy (or you're gonna have a bad time).
If you want to discuss the tactics used with the Pyra, I'd give an account of how you are losing/winning with it now!
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Yes, Pyramidion is OP.
But you're going to find out that this has been the case for so long that a lot of the meta for this game revolves around it.
Frankyl I just stopped caring. Most pilots that use a Pyramidon do so in a sucidal and idiotic fashon, so whatever, I guess. I'll still win most of the times.
Basically, don't count on it being fixed.
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the tactics I use are try and stay in their blindspot and destroy their balloon but It is extremely hard to get lucky in that regard or even get a decent gunner I use goldfish for the most part. The 2 pyra games I have experienced have been nothing short of dreadful even with a good crew as a captain. Using the lumber or the carronade and 2 flaks on my ship I find pyras damn annoying when every other ship has been a fair time.
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Those are pretty good tactics, but they are hard to accomplish by yourself.
It the Pyra has a competent ally, you are going to be forced off the grounded Pyra before it dies, and probably killed because pinning requires very specific positioning that leaves you quite vulnerable on most maps.
Try using Lochnagar rounds to get the final kill shot on the Carronade. Remember the Carronade is also REALLY good at taking down armor too! So the balloon being armored is actually an awesome thing for the Hellhound: by the time they hit the ground, the armor is already gone. But really, you should be focusing with your ally. Make sure they know that you will be taking their armor or balloon down. Make the match a 2v1. The Pyra is not over powered, it simply has a role as a heavy hitter. It's reasonably easy to dodge, unless you let it sneak up on you. My advice for that is simply "don't".
As for the heavy flak... well, all I'm going to say is it needs a little love. The LJs are very powerful, but difficult to aim. Remember, just because you're long range doesn't mean positioning isn't the most important aspect of the match! Sitting gives your crew more stable shots, but leaves you a massive target for long range weapons. Moving ruins the arcs/shots of your gunners but might avoid some ordinance. It's a balancing act.
But you're going to find out that this has been the case for so long that a lot of the meta for this game revolves around it.
That's not really true anymore. Pyra's are one of the easier ships to use by design. They are also one of the higher skill ceiling ships, meaning you see them throughout the game. The meta did revolve around gat-flak pyra's at one point, but only because they had a lot of armor. If you take a look at the 'state of the meta' gat-mortar is more common now. Pyra's just happen to have two light gun emplacements forward. But honestly, a junker implements that meta just as well, if not better. Additionally junkers have high armor, unprecedented mobility, and the ability to get three guns on a single target with little effort. Harder to fly, but more rewarding.
My point here is that instead of complaining that something is OP because you are having a hard time with it, take a careful look at how you are playing and how your ally is playing. When do you die to the pyra? Is it when your ally is near by? Why was he able to get his guns on you? Did you over extend? I'm not saying it's your fault, there is a massive continuum of skill in this game and sometimes you just get bad luck. Really though, I experienced the problems you are having when I started out. My advice for that is to practice and above all try new things. Hold back, let your ally go in and try to disable his balloon after he commits to not shooting at you. Stuff like that.
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Gat-mortar (or just more mortars).
That's the meta in public games. And it still works wonders for the Pyramidion.
But go ahead and ignore that.
By the way I'm not calling the Pyramidion OP because I have problems dealing with it (lol), but because it's my easymode ship. When I want to pubstomp I go pyramidion and win, even against high level coordinated crews. You call it skill ceiling I call it bs.
Whatever.
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That's the meta in public games. And it still works wonders for the Pyramidion.
Ah. Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that there isn't a meta gun combo, or that metamidions are not a thing. Just that the meta-combos can be equally effective on other ships. But the meta does include the Pyra.
When I want to pubstomp I go pyramidion and win, even against high level coordinated crews. You call it skill ceiling I call it bs.
When I want to pubstomp I go flame Squid. If I'm playing against people of the same skill level, I generally go Junker. I'm just saying because something is good or easy to use doesn't automagically make it overpowered. I've killed plenty of Pyra's and been killed by plenty. I've seen nothing to suggest that they are overpowered when the skill levels of the teams align (which is really the only situation you can consider something overpowered, before that point someone is just taking advantage of an inexperienced team).
But you seem to be observing something different.
If you are finding that you beat everyone you go up against, by all means seek out better players or enter the competitive scene.
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No the point is that everyone is underestimating what 2 foward pointing front guns can do on a tanky ship like the Pyra.
Its desing is way too optimized, if there was at least a very narrow sweet spot from where you can fire both weapons it would be vaguely more balanced.
And just because you can work around something it doesn't mean that it isn't a problem. It's like saying that irl a f****** tree fallen in the middle of a road isn't a problem and shouldn't be removed because you can just climb over it or offroad and drive around.
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When I want to pubstomp I go pyramidion and win, even against high level coordinated crews. You call it skill ceiling I call it bs.
Whatever.
When I go pubstomp, it doesn't really matter what ship I'm using or what ship I'm facing (well... except maybe that one time with all mine mobulas), generally win either way.
Anyways, Pyras are quite good ships, yes, but by no means are the undefeatable or OP. If you know how to approach one, they go down like every other ship.
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I think the problem stems from that the pyramidion is notably average in every aspect (average hp, average size, average speed, average turn rate) yet performs so remarkably well.
In a game where you're essentially picking a pseudo class, it's quite a nail in the eye when jack-of-all-trades work so bloody good.
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You forgot to list the short distance from bital repair point to gun, and how all the engines are close together. It makes the Pyra a very easy ship to crew on. Also the forward facing guns mean that the newbie gunners who don't know how to compensate for ship movement and turning can still hit with the Gat. There have been many times on my junker where a gunner has emptied his entire clip into empty air loosing us the dps war.
That said the Pyra has a large hull hit box and in a 1v1 sniper duel against a junker with average gunners on both sides; the junker is going to come out ahead simply because the pyra is going to miss more shots.
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Pyramidion is not op
Though the pyra excels at many things, what it's really good at is countering disabling builds since the ship itself can recover and repair extremely well through disabling and carries an armored balloon and protected front guns, this is likely why you're struggling when attacking it with a blenderfish.
The pyra though has a giant hull hit box and is not nearly as tanky as people assume. The best way to kill a pyra is to actually just outright kill it. Under focus fire they vaporize literally in seconds since even new gunners have no problem hitting a pyra's hull. Furthermore a pyra is really easy to dodge. This is the reason you see so many Junkers in higher level play since they are the ultimate anti pyra ship.
Junkers can out shoot, out repair and out fly pyramidions in a duel.
TL/DR Don't 1v1 a good pyra pilot by trying to shoot out it's balloon, use the carronade directly on the armor while focusing it with your teammate. Once their armor is down, that pyra won't be long for this world.
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The pyramidion isn't overpowered at all. There are many counters: Use far range weapons, attack the pyra from behind, take a quicker ship and stay in their blind spot... Just to name some.
There are many people calling the pyramidion overpowered. However, it's because they probably don't think about the tactics: What guns are they op with? In what ways is it op? Where are it's weaknesses?
If you don't just blindly rage and worry about it but start thinking about a problem you encounter, you may be able to solve it. This goes for everything in this game as well as the real life.
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Junkers can out shoot, out repair and out fly pyramidions in a duel.
I am with you on everything except the "out repair" part. The pyra is far easier to repair for than the junker. The junkers smaller hull means it will get hit less if you are facing less than excellent gunners but from a ship layout perspective the pyra is much easier to maintain. Also with forward facing guns and a hull relatively close to the helm the pilot can hop off and bring the hull armor up with the main engine. Thus getting the benefits of 2 guns constantly shooting and 2 spanners on the hull. The forward facing guns help, because the pilot can put the ship on a backwards path to expand the front gun's fire cone and hopefully keep the enemy ship in arc while the pilot repairs.
Not saying the Pyra is OP, but it has many fine qualities the first poster has missed out on.
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Incorrect ways to engage a Pyra:
|yourship> <enemypyra|
Correct way to engage a pyra:
<yourship|
<enemypyra|
Problem solved!
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Well, at the moment my solution with the "far ranged guns" doesn't work that good anymore...but still, there are many other possibilities.
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I suppose I meant they can out repair their hull. Junkers have a smaller hit box and more armor so generally it takes longer to destroy the armor of a Junker.
As for hull rebuilds, I suppose it's a bit easier for the pilot to help on a pyra, however all 3 crew (if you use the repair from below trick) and pilot are close enough to the Junker's hull to sometimes make it tactically viable to group rebuild.
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Incorrect ways to engage a Pyra:
|yourship> <enemypyra|
Correct way to engage a pyra:
<yourship|
<enemypyra|
Problem solved!
I love this diagram.
But Smollett is right. Especially with a buffed hull, junkers are actually pretty tanky. You just don't let the armor go down, and that is a team effort between everyone on the ship.
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I fly Junker particularly because it excels against the Pyra, therefore I think of myself an expert on the engagements of Pyras. All things being equal, a Junker side will beat a Pyra front. Also assuming I am not surprised, the Junker is an excellent dodger of rams with a bit of Kerosene and Phoenix Claw, keeping gun arcs on at the same time.
Pyramidions are very vulnerable to focus fire, especially while they are engaging because they can't really dodge horizontally while keeping their guns in arc. Imagine a FPS where you have two guys who can only shoot straight but one can only run forwards and backwards whereas the other one strafes left and right. While the run running straight might be the more knockout of the two, the one who strafes is the one who can dodge the most while in combat.
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The downside with strafing is if your gunners can't compensate and end up dumping their clip into empty sky. The Pyra is more forgiving of poor gunnery skills. I don't know why I am arguing for it, I gave up the Mo' Dakka Dakka Dakka at patch 1.2 since keeping the trifecta sweet spot was too difficult without phoenix claw. I guess this discussion needs to occur so that new players can grasp the pros and cons of a ship.
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Incorrect ways to engage a Pyra:
|yourship> <enemypyra|
Correct way to engage a pyra:
<yourship|
<enemypyra|
Problem solved!
Preeeetty much. Believe it or not squids are excellent anti-pyra ships - just put a carronade on front and a mortar on the side (more optional). Close as fast as you can, dodge the ram with chute vent or hydrogen, and come up behind them. Shoot out the engines, not balloon and voilla. Engines take a long time to repair, pulls an engineer off of the hull, and stops the enemy from maneuvering cold. You can either then ride them to the ground, killing armor and balloon, or ignore them and go double team another ship with your ally.
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I fly Junker particularly because it excels against the Pyra, therefore I think of myself an expert on the engagements of Pyras. All things being equal, a Junker side will beat a Pyra front. Also assuming I am not surprised, the Junker is an excellent dodger of rams with a bit of Kerosene and Phoenix Claw, keeping gun arcs on at the same time.
Pyramidions are very vulnerable to focus fire, especially while they are engaging because they can't really dodge horizontally while keeping their guns in arc. Imagine a FPS where you have two guys who can only shoot straight but one can only run forwards and backwards whereas the other one strafes left and right. While the run running straight might be the more knockout of the two, the one who strafes is the one who can dodge the most while in combat.
Suffice to say that I don't agree with a single word of this and that I think your logic is incredibly falwed.
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I have to say I despise the Pyra. Too easy to fly, too much firepower. You say all you have to do is get on it's blindside, but unless the Pyra pilot is blind and deaf, that's not "all there is to it." There is no "high-ceiling" skill cap for the Pyra, you aim it at what you want dead and it dies. Its front guns are incredibly well protected, it's the easiest ship to repair, and it's the easiest ship to shoot from considering there is a lot less compensation going on from turning the ship too fast. The other suggestion for countering the Pyra is to outright kill it. How do you do that? With another Pyra.
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I fly Junker particularly because it excels against the Pyra, therefore I think of myself an expert on the engagements of Pyras. All things being equal, a Junker side will beat a Pyra front. Also assuming I am not surprised, the Junker is an excellent dodger of rams with a bit of Kerosene and Phoenix Claw, keeping gun arcs on at the same time.
Pyramidions are very vulnerable to focus fire, especially while they are engaging because they can't really dodge horizontally while keeping their guns in arc. Imagine a FPS where you have two guys who can only shoot straight but one can only run forwards and backwards whereas the other one strafes left and right. While the run running straight might be the more knockout of the two, the one who strafes is the one who can dodge the most while in combat.
Suffice to say that I don't agree with a single word of this and that I think your logic is incredibly falwed.
Let's play nice here. Serenum, I think you'll find most people agree with this sentiment that Junker strafe > Pyra charge. What have you seen that countermands this?
Saying "you're wrong" without providing evidence or anecdote isn't really constructive to a conversation. We're trying to understand where you are coming from and at the same time give you a glimpse into our world.
I have to say I despise the Pyra. Too easy to fly, too much firepower. You say all you have to do is get on it's blindside, but unless the Pyra pilot is blind and deaf, that's not "all there is to it." There is no "high-ceiling" skill cap for the Pyra, you aim it at what you want dead and it dies. It's front guns are incredibly well protected, it's the easiest ship to repair, and it's the easiest ship to shoot from considering there is a lot less compensation going on from turning the ship too fast. The other suggestion for countering the Pyra is to outright kill it. How do you do that? With another Pyra.
The "High-ceiling" cap has nothing to do with the function of the Pyra. You may have noticed the sluggish turn rate of the Pyra and massive blind spot. It's pretty trivial to shove a goldfish or squid in there, especially with baiting tactics. As for just killing it: See the discussion on the junker, pyra dogfights are a bit tangential (if two OPs go against eachother... that's not very OP now is it?). With a pyra the high skill ceiling is in positioning and tactics (as really, it is for every ship). Keeping your guns in the right place 100% of the time, and taking the correct approach which denies both enemies your blind spot can be pretty difficult.
I despise the Pyra for different reasons. I just don't have fun flying it because it's a pain the ass to maneuver, without the broadside satisfaction of the Galleon.
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Suffice to say that I don't agree with a single word of this and that I think your logic is incredibly falwed.
Go ooooooon
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I don't find the junker OP, its strafing tendencies make it harder for the gunners to compensate and is therefore not merely a point and shoot ship. It takes much more skill to fly a junker imo. As for Pyra dogfighting, if it takes the same ship to beat a ship isn't that OP? (That's excluding teamwork of course) And wasn't it agreed just a few posts before that any weaknesses of a ship can be remedied with pilot tools?
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It doesn't take a Pyra to beat a Pyra. The Admiral Quackbar eats them for breakfast, regularly.
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So does the Lyri, but that in no way makes the Goldfish OP. I would argue you're just too darn good of a pilot Sammy
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I am not saying the junker is OP, I am simply saying it counters a good ship. I honestly believe though when flying against a Pyra of equal piloting skill as myself, my Junker will win. Not always, but statistically significantly enough for me to view the Pyra as a counter.
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If pyramidions were overpowered, competitive matches would consist of four pyramidions. Clearly that's not the case. Pyramidions are easy to fly and crew on, which is why they seem overpowered for many new players. As a pilot when I don't feel like doing as much work, I'll fly a pyramidion. The separation of hull/engines and balloon/guns allow for most beginner crews to be effective (once they understand this separation), plus forward guns are easy to aim.
That being said, it's certainly not overpowered and honestly I'm not sure if I can explain it any further than some of the posts here already have. It has a large, easy to hit hull, and doesn't maneuver easily. If you accidentally miss your target by overextending (which newer pilots often do, when they don't have a good grasp on how each ship moves), forget about it. Your enemy will easily take advantage of your massive blind spot and you'll be down in seconds. Easy to learn and a sturdy brawler yes, but easily countered once you realize other strategies exist.
And the argument that "just because it's possible to counter it doesn't mean it's overpowered" is silly. Everything will seem overpowered in this game if you don't know how to counter it. If I don't avoid a galleon's broadside, the galleon will seem like the most overpowered ship in the game. The same principle applies to the pyramidion. If it wasn't able to be countered, I'd agree that it's overpowered. But that's definitely not the case.
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How to beat a Pyra, Diagram 2:
<Here is good|
Very bad> <Pyra < Here is
location > <midion <the best
<Not so
< good
Edit: This also works very well vs the Galleon.
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Since the junker has the potential for a trifecta, it's firepower is technically superior. But the skill it takes to maintain the that trifecta, while attempting to get on the blindside of the Pyra, is very high. Remember also, it would require your gunners to compensate for the horizontal movement. The junker is a more difficult ship to repair, and therefore you are at a disadvantage there, losing your trifecta potential as the engineer can't stay to shoot. The junker is more difficult to hit, but with the precision of heavy clip, and the "not as exaggerated" turning of the Pyra, a good gunner will have no problem hitting your hull. (Assuming CQC and gat-mortar as-is the meta). No Sammy, I believe the Pyra would win.
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Imagine, no pilot worth his salt is going to let you get into that position in the first place. Competitive matches don't have 4 Pyra's because they have teamwork. And the better teamwork will always win. That said I have to say not all teams had mercs but those were considered in need of a nerf. So let me rephrase my stance on the Pyra. I think the Pyra needs a nerf. I take back what I said about being OP.
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Imagine, no pilot worth his salt is going to let you get into that position in the first place. Competitive matches don't have 4 Pyra's because they have teamwork. And the better teamwork will always win. That said I have to say not all teams had mercs but those were considered in need of a nerf. So let me rephrase my stance on the Pyra. I think the Pyra needs a nerf. I take back what I said about being OP.
I'm willing to bet that 90% of the people complaining about pyras are ones who run at it straight head forward thinking they can outmuscle them. My point is stop that.
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I like to think that I mastered Pyra engineering a long time ago, and I only got serious with the Junker a couple of months ago. With a good crew, the Junker is easier to engineer on than the Pyramidion.
Why?
-It's easier to get multiple people on the hull when needed.
-The pilot can rebuild the balloon while the gungineers keep on firing.
-It's easier to keep sustained buffs on the Junker.
-The hull profile is much smaller, and a lot of it is filled with guns and engines. Once your gungineers (or gunners, if that's how you like to run it) learn to compensate for turning, you will generally deal more damage than the enemy ship.
Not to mention that fifth gun. It makes a huge difference.
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With repairing the hull from in front and below, the Junker isn't hard to repair in the slightest. I can throw extra guys on the hull just as fast if not faster than a Pyra. Also I have no worries about my hull engineer having to help out with enginges and thus missing an armor repair, a common problem on Pyras. A good Junker setup can use piloting tools much more liberally than a Pyra can once engaged in a fight. The Junker also doesn't just have a small hitbox, the body of the ship is very component heavy, making it even more difficult for enemy ships to get direct hull hits. The pilot is able to do more repairs himself quickly ranging from looking up at the balloon, to actually leave the helm to give some whacks to a gun.
I'd maintain a Pyra is harder to repair due to the major time spent between one of the front gunners leaving and returning to their gun. Once engaged in combat every component on the Junker will always have someone near. On a Pyramidion, this is not the case.
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Well, I suppose I'll take your's and Sunderland's word for it. I don't engineer much so I can see where my logic may be at fault there.
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If anyone's opinion is based on experience on a Junker it's Sammy and Sunerland.
Base on my own overall experience in GOI (trust me it's extensive) Junkers simply outclass Pyramidions in a brawl. A well crewed Galleon also easily counters them however it's a lot harder to pull that counter off in a pub match.
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in my personal opinion (as a squid pilot) i find the pyramidion an easy kill, with a carro flamer combo i can keep in their blind spot causing all hell to break loose. its all about how you plan it. don't go into a head on attack. you can hide and wait for them to pass you by surprising them, or try and take them on their side since its turning speed is somewhat lacking and most pyra pilots rely on front guns he would most likely panic and keep trying to turn to get his fronts in a position. giving you lots of time to deal some pain. (this is me talking from pub matches)
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Ok let me present my argument:
Competitive players are the bane of this game, their theorycrafting is valid only in their little microcosm, every time a developer listen to them GoIO gets worst and if the competitive scene were to die completely this game would improve as a result.
End of argument. >:(
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Simple approach: from the rear to take out the pyra's engines.
more elaborate: check in the lobby what the pyras front load out is and adjust your tools accordingly - usually the have flak/mortar so hydrogen can lift you above the gun arc.
high risk, last resort: flying backwards until the pyra goes for a ram duck over or under it depending on yout tools then use the Claw to bring your ship to bear guns and take out it's engines, or fake a ram angling sightly so you go past their blind side, most pilots will commit to the ram then realise what you're doing too late to slow down, use the Claw as described earlier, or tar.
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Ok let me present my argument:
Competitive players are the bane of this game, their theorycrafting is valid only in their little microcosm, every time a developer listen to them GoIO gets worst and if the competitive scene were to die completely this game would improve as a result.
End of argument. >:(
Serenum, we play with the same ships everyone else does.
Actually a good number of the recent changes being put into the games were to fix beginner matches, not comp matches.
Again, your argument has nothing to do with why you think the Pyra is OP. We understand that not every plays competition matches or implements the 'meta', but that doesn't change the basic stats of the ships and weapons. The only difference between a comp match and a pug are the players involved (and sometimes not even that).
I still don't understand why you think the Pyra is OP. I'd like to reiterate: easy is not automatically equal overpowered.
The definition of overpowered in this case would mean that a ship is imbalanced enough to result in a win regardless of other game variables. The Mercury rifle was a bit overpowered until recently (you don't really have to agree with the way they fixed it, but it was causing problems in low level matches, and even comp players were complaining). Dual Mercuries made it nigh-impossible to approach ships in some situations, and the only real counter to it was dual Mercuries. I've never lost a match simply because the enemy took a Pyra (though I have lost because of dual mercs, and my inability to outsnipe Shink).
In generally the cry of "X is OP" is becoming a bit like the story of the "Boy to cried Wolf". The Merc was altered only after a long discussion where most people agreed it was a real problem. If you have an issue, the devs and everyone on the forums will take a real look at it, but you need to be prepared to have you ideas dissected and analyzed. Something being OP is one of the things that needs to be backed up by some kind of evidence, it cannot be changed simply because we all have our own opinion.
I recommend you try some of the other ship builds listed in the thread, and let us know if that works for you.
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Ok let me present my argument:
Competitive players are the bane of this game, their theorycrafting is valid only in their little microcosm, every time a developer listen to them GoIO gets worst and if the competitive scene were to die completely this game would improve as a result.
End of argument. >:(
That is not an argument, that is a complaint.
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Hey Guys,
I would like to make sure we are following our Community Standards. Particularly this one:
2. Trolling/Harassment
Trolling or harassment includes personal verbal attacks, insults, communicating or behaving in a manner which is offensively coarse, intimidating or threatening, making unwelcome sexual advances, or engaging in other activities intended or likely to cause disruption, annoyance or alarm. You may not harass, threaten, or troll other players or representatives of Muse Games.
As a competitive player myself, I would also like to point out that we are all gamers here that play the same game.
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Ok let me present my argument:
Competitive players are the bane of this game, their theorycrafting is valid only in their little microcosm, every time a developer listen to them GoIO gets worst and if the competitive scene were to die completely this game would improve as a result.
End of argument. >:(
... says a player on a competitive team....
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Yes but the difference is that you play to win, we play to have fun.
Its clear to me that you don't care if something is OP as long as you, personally, have a way around it.
That's not a constructive behaviour, that's thinking you are the center of the world.
The pyramidion is OP exactly because its too easy to use. It requires more effort to defeat it then it requires effort to win with it. It doesn't matter if I, you, or anyone else can defeat a Pyramidion blindfolded. Therefore it is NOT balanced.
Do you understand this simple concept?
If what I'm saying is considered trolling, go ahead. Ban me. I don't care.
I'm sick of seeing the vocal minority win.
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Yes but the difference is that you play to win, we play to have fun.
Its clear to me that you don't care if something is OP as long as you, personally, have a way around it.
That's not a constructive behaviour, that's thinking you are the center of the world.
The pyramidion is OP exactly because its too easy to use. It requires more effort to defeat it then it requires effort to win with it. It doesn't matter if I, you, or anyone else can defeat a Pyramidion blindfolded. Therefore it is NOT balanced.
Do you understand this simple concept?
If what I'm saying is considered trolling, go ahead. Ban me. I don't care.
I'm sick of seeing the vocal minority win.
Except that it's not.
Look, we can go around in circles all you want, you think it's OP, the rest of us regardless of team status think that, eh, while it's pretty good, it certainly has it's weaknesses. It's not that a few of us somehow have a magical trick to beating a pyra that we feel proud of, it's that if you take like 30 seconds to think about how to approach one, it doesn't actually become a problem.
But whatever, martyr yourself all you want. This thread should probably be locked.
PS: Oh, btw, the sheer assumption that somehow I don't play this game to have fun and that somehow all I, or anyone else in this thread care about is winning is completely ridiculous.
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From a topic the same as this one :
The Pyramidion is not 'easy' to pilot, but, in my opinion, is the easiest to crew and maintain. Only one engineer is needed to keep the hull and engines running, and they're so close together, it's not a terribly hard job. The other two crew members both just focus on gunning; one of them having to keep the balloon in check. The gunners don't have to account for ship movement to throw off their shots since the guns are on the front.
The Pyra is the only ship where one engineer can repair all three engines in less than three seconds (minus the Galleon when you jump on the ledge). Low levels can better operate on a Pyramidion instead of, say, a Squid or Mobula.
Easy to gun, easy to repair, easy to stay on target, very fast, high armor and hull, small balloon, ramming ability... The Pyramidion really only has one weakness, and that's it's turning and vertical movement which can be overcome with pilot tools.
TL;DR: Pyramidion is the easiest ship.
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The Pyra is like the Mercury. One is fine, two start to cause problems. In a 1v1 against any other class the balance will come down to pilot skill and loadout and not ship selection. But put Pyras in a pack of two or three and the ability to advance (or retreat) whilst keeping two light weapons per Pyra on the target whilst simultaneously shielding all three engines becomes dominating. The ability to fight at full capacity whilst charging or withdrawing is what hurts.
Compared to what it was before the physics patch that corrected mass inconsistences, the Pyra now is barge-like in it's poor manoeuvrability. It's biggest advantage, beyond the forward-firing twin mounts, is the location of the balloon and the engines. With the balloon on the forward upper deck that allows an engineer to fix the balloon and man the forward port weapon mount. With the engines shielded behind the mass of the hull and the ability to stage a fighting retreat as well as a charge the lower deck engineer has it comparatively easy as long as the Pilot is able to dominate the engagement or when the Pyra pack has superiority of numbers. If the balloon was on the lower or rear quarter deck, or if the engines were more exposed from the front, engineering would be a far tougher proposition. In a 1v1 these advantages are lessened as the opponent has a greater degree of freedom to maneuverer - particularly in the closing phase.
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Just as ship balancing should not be based on the experiences of the highest level of play, neither should it based on the lowest level of play.
All else being equal, low skill, Pyra OP
All else being equal, medium skill, Pyra beatable half the time (balanced)
All else being equal, high skill, Pyra quite beatable.
I have pointed out many ways which a Junker can beat a Pyra (despite the logic being allegedly flawed) or at the least many advantages they have over the Pyra in a fight.
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Communication and teamwork beat Pyras. They beat everything.
Ambushing them is also a valid tactic, abuse their slow turning.
Lumberjacks are amazing against Pyras as well, they are massive targets and a hit on the balloon will ensure the armor gets damaged as well.
Heavy Flak Spires with a Merc are also amazing at taking down incoming Pyras very easily. Galleons can tank them, Junkers outgun them, Goldfishes can outmanuver them hard and have a handy selection of weapons to make their life a living hell.
Focusing a Pyra is amazingly easy as well, it has armor hitboxes EVERYWHERE.
Aka, Pyramidions are an easy ship, yet there's a lot of things that beat them easily.
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I actually think bringing two pyras in a 2v2 is a terrible ship comp. Now you have two ships that can be killed quickly and can't turn easily, so if you get a positional advantage it's almost a guaranteed 2 kills.
The fact that you almost never see 2 pyras in a 2v2 competitive match I think helps back my point.
2 pyras in a 3v3 can be good but 3 in a 3v3. Again that's just silly.
So, what I'm saying is, that I don't think pyra stacking is as good as merc stacking used to be.
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The fact that you almost never see 2 pyras in a 2v2 competitive match I think helps back my point.
It's an irrelevant point, in my opinion. Competitive matches are between experienced players with practiced communications. As such competitive play is the least relevant aspect of the game. It's a tiny fraction of the number of games played by an insignificantly small proportion of players. PUGs are what most people play, and intra-team communications are hit or miss.
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The fact that you almost never see 2 pyras in a 2v2 competitive match I think helps back my point.
It's an irrelevant point, in my opinion. Competitive matches are between experienced players with practiced communications. As such competitive play is the least relevant aspect of the game. It's a tiny fraction of the number of games played by an insignificantly small proportion of players. PUGs are what most people play, and intra-team communications are hit or miss.
Double pyra with no communication is just as bad as any other two ships with no communication.
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Yes but the difference is that you play to win, we play to have fun.
Its clear to me that you don't care if something is OP as long as you, personally, have a way around it.
That's not a constructive behaviour, that's thinking you are the center of the world.
This is just false. Sure, we play to win because generally the idea of a competition is to win, but we sure have a hell of a lot of fun playing competitively. Otherwise we wouldn't do it. And it's not like I personally have a way around fighting pyramidions... there are plenty of very obvious drawbacks that we've all taken the time to explain to you. It's not OP just because you feel like ignoring those. Likewise, it's not constructive behavior to tell me that all competitive teams except for you only play to win rather than for fun, and then have the nerve to say that we think we're the center of the world.
The pyramidion is OP exactly because its too easy to use. It requires more effort to defeat it then it requires effort to win with it. It doesn't matter if I, you, or anyone else can defeat a Pyramidion blindfolded. Therefore it is NOT balanced.
Do you understand this simple concept?
If what I'm saying is considered trolling, go ahead. Ban me. I don't care.
I'm sick of seeing the vocal minority win.
No, I'm afraid I don't understand the concept that just because something's easy to use means it's overpowered. It's easy in the sense that it has two front guns, but as we've explained many times, there are a lot of drawbacks that come along with those front guns. I fundamentally disagree that it requires more effort to defeat it than the effort it takes to win with it. As long as you don't engage it head on (because then you're playing into the pyramidion's advantage), they're extremely easy to dispose of.
I also don't understand why you're playing the victim—call it the "vocal minority" if you wish, but you seem to just be ignoring all of the counterarguments people are presenting in lieu of proclaiming that competitive players are self-centered.
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Yes but the difference is that you play to win, we play to have fun.
Its clear to me that you don't care if something is OP as long as you, personally, have a way around it.
That's not a constructive behaviour, that's thinking you are the center of the world.
This is just false. Sure, we play to win because generally the idea of a competition is to win, but we sure have a hell of a lot of fun playing competitively. Otherwise we wouldn't do it. And it's not like I personally have a way around fighting pyramidions... there are plenty of very obvious drawbacks that we've all taken the time to explain to you. It's not OP just because you feel like ignoring those. Likewise, it's not constructive behavior to tell me that all competitive teams except for you only play to win rather than for fun, and then have the nerve to say that we think we're the center of the world.
guys thread to hold this discussion here, let these good people go about their business.
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2054.0.html
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I have pointed out many ways which a Junker can beat a Pyra (despite the logic being allegedly flawed) or at the least many advantages they have over the Pyra in a fight.
A junker is just a much more versatile ship compared to the pyra. A pyra is made more for starting engagements or charging into one then it is in a straight out brawl. With a junker I just sit to the left and back of a pyra and pound away at it. As probably stated previously it's more a case on how you use a vessel then the vessel it's self.
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As someone who couldn't fly a pyra to save my life, they are really weak to squids, so with my banshee-flamer combo I can usually outmaneuver them constantly. And, just saying, it is sliiiiiiiightly op with it's blindspot coverable mostly with tar.
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The problem with a conversation like this is that, ultimately, it's all relative. One person's overpowered is another's easy mark. And all evidence is circumstantial and anecdotal; if I think Pyra's are easy prey, I'm unlikely to be convinced by someone else's argument. (and the other way 'round)
My circumstantial, anecdotal evidence is that the Pyra's popularity is because it's easy to understand. (note: not necessarily use, or use well) It's basically a big triangle you point at the enemy until it's dead. As a pilot, you're right up in front and can see where you're going (and thus what to point at); as a gunner, you can easily shoot at things right in front of you (which is great, since most rookie pilots don't always know about firing arcs yet); and as an engineer, four out of five major components are in easy reach (it's easy to figure out a path to follow when doing repairs). It's also great at ramming, which, to a rookie pilot who's always flying right at the enemy, will probably happen all the time. The ship is tough enough to take some punishment, and with a good engineer can stay flying for a long time.
It's not hard to see why a lot of newer pilots (and even experience ones) pick the Pyra in such great numbers. Yes, it's got its weaknesses — just like every other ship. But, as someone has already said, the vast majority of the game is played out in PuG matches by people who haven't flow together before. Do you want to spend 10 minutes explaining your Squid's fancy Minefield/Mercury/Flare strategy, or do you want to make things easier on your all-level one crew (and yourself) by taking the simple option?
The upshot of all this is that any kind of extra strength from the Pyra is unlikely to be fixed by a few damage tweaks or reducing some armor — what makes the ship attractive and 'easy' is baked into the very design. It's a matter of tactics, not numbers. Short of radically redesigning the entire layout of the ship (and thus destroying what makes it unique), any 'solution' is going to have to come from how people respond to the ship. If enough people learn how to counter the ship, the meta will shift and people will focus on a new 'overpowered' meta.
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The upshot of all this is that any kind of extra strength from the Pyra is unlikely to be fixed by a few damage tweaks or reducing some armor — what makes the ship attractive and 'easy' is baked into the very design. It's a matter of tactics, not numbers. Short of radically redesigning the entire layout of the ship (and thus destroying what makes it unique), any 'solution' is going to have to come from how people respond to the ship.
Absolutely nailed it. Salute.
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Saying the Junker has an advantage over the Pyramidion because the Junker can strafe is kind of silly. The Pyramidion has two side gun slots that can house another chaingun/mortar and in some ship layouts, that's even the best place to put such a combo.
The thing people seem to miss out on quite a lot is the ship's role. If I were to give every ship a role:
Goldfish: Support disabler
Squid: Utility
Pyramidion: Assault
Junker: Combat
Mobula: Destroyer
Galleon: Defense
Spire: Sniper
You will easily notice that besides the Pyramidion and the Junker, there are no real combat options available. Pyramidion is also build towards attacking(hence it gets the role of assault) which makes it perfect for almost any job. It together with the Junker is essentially a swiss army knife and because the other ships have been given the weaknesses that they have, Pyramidion is by far the most reliable answer.
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I'm just going to say (this is in fact what I have noticed not a defined fact) that most of the new players seem to think the pyra is the "Be all end all" ship of this game, said statement is not the case. Of course it is a fairly effective vessel, decent armor and all that, but like every vessel it too has it's weaknesses.
1.) You've probably noticed that it has no guns along 1 side giving it 1 hell of a blindside.
2.) Thing has a fairly bad turn rate, figure how that can be an issue yourself.
3.) It has a fairly large hull hit box, yet again figure how that can be an issue.
4.) Engines are fairly close together making it easier to disable, also takes less time to go from one engine to the next when repairing but still.
5.) It has less perma-hull then a squid, which while a squid has considerably less armor it is much more maneuverable, again think about it.
Again, it's how you use the vessel that really matters.
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Saying the Junker has an advantage over the Pyramidion because the Junker can strafe is kind of silly. The Pyramidion has two side gun slots that can house another chaingun/mortar and in some ship layouts, that's even the best place to put such a combo.
And how often do you see Pyramidions run gat mortar on their side and heave an easy time switching betweem upstairs and downstairs. 98% of the time Pyras have secondary guns or a different type of gun type downstairs.
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Of course, because charging opponents head on is much more successful than circling around them. Especially if said opponent lacks frontside guns.
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A pyra is also a chaser craft, getting in from behind a craft and pounding them that way. Again, it is also used for starting engagements, IE two front guns closing in, ram, run away giggling.
As for downstairs guns I've noticed flares because why not.
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Pyras don't run left side gat mortar because they can't turn at a suitable rate, and will lose arcs pretty quickly against a Junker, whereas with the front guns it's able to control the engage distance, keep arcs on longer, and survive longer (but the Junker will still win in the end).
As for downstairs guns I've noticed flares because why not.
It's not just "why not", the flare is the best close-range weapon you can stick down there. It lets you light up clouds, but crucially it also has a huge arc and lays down those 10 stacks of fire per shot, which can be key in assisting in the armour break and taking a gungineer off their gun (by shooting into the balloon).
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Bullhouse and Serenum are in fact correct.
As evidence I submit Smollet's ship "the Dirty Duck", and i note it is no coincidence Smollett is nay saying this OP business.
Because what he wont tell you is the dirty sneaky all terrain/opposition Pyra he runs has only lost 3 competitive matches *ever* - I think Serenum accused the higher levels of not caring about the balance so long as they had a work around. I say the Higher levels are in fact exploiting the floating exploit otherwise known as the Pyramidion!
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I have noticed one flaw in the protection the pyra has given it balloon. I mostly run with a mortar somewhere on my ship. Always had the mortar instead of flak (Hipster much?)
When piloting with low level crew they tend not to aim their shots much and 'as long as it hits then its a +1 for us' this is a horrible idea against say... a junker as they tend to fire at the easiest thing to hit... The balloon. On the pyra the hull is around the balloon increasing the chane the shells hit it. In my eyes its the easiest ship to learn and easiest ship to hit.
Hopefully others understand what im on about as im usually horrible describing things.
Gambrill
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Moriarty, Smollet doesn't have that record due to some major ship advantage. You should know this better than anyone, he has that due to the amazing teamwork of the Paddling.
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Don't let him fool you Sammy, that's the big lie! - Swallow that and hes got you.
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Don't let him fool you Sammy, that's the big lie! - Swallow that and hes got you.
And here I thought you meant the caster.
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I think the main reason why we see the Pyra as often as we do, is that it's a ship wish can be organised very easily. If I pilot unknown crews I usually pick the Pyra first and move on to other ships later on. The strict role assignments which you don't have on any other ship provide a good enviroment to organise and get to know your people. Also it has got unique features which can be very annoying when engaging it - the well protected balloon and front guns. I have to admit that I wouldn't play it any less if its structural hull was reduced by 1/3.
Still I don't reckon it an overpowered ship in general. However the pyramideon clearly excels in Anglean Raiders, as there's no other ship which combines selfs sufficient killing power with speed. I can't think of a ship combination that might possibly be a better pick than 3 pyras for that map.
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In my experience the Squid's the optimal ship for Anglean, since there isn't really much combat happening.
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I think the main reason why we see the Pyra as often as we do, is that it's a ship wish can be organised very easily. If I pilot unknown crews I usually pick the Pyra first and move on to other ships later on. The strict role assignments which you don't have on any other ship provide a good enviroment to organise and get to know your people. Also it has got unique features which can be very annoying when engaging it - the well protected balloon and front guns. I have to admit that I wouldn't play it any less if its structural hull was reduced by 1/3.
Still I don't reckon it an overpowered ship in general. However the pyramideon clearly excels in Anglean Raiders, as there's no other ship which combines selfs sufficient killing power with speed. I can't think of a ship combination that might possibly be a better pick than 3 pyras for that map.
I just want to emphasize on how true this is. Last night I was realy just considering changing my ship to Pyra since my crew was litteraly unable to run a Galleon, then again I just looked at the clock at 5:30 AM and just decided to go to sleep..
Seriously though, the Pyramidion is only seem as much as it does cause it is the easiest ship to understand and crew on, cause ask yourself, when do you trust that level 2 Gunner more? Shooting a Lumberjack or just having him switch to engineer and shoot a Gatling or something?
I definately know which I prefer..
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I suppose I aught to apply my opinion here as well. As a new player, I do struggle against the Pyramidion. I don't think I suck too terribly (but don't quote me on that, please), I find every ship except the Pyra and the Junker fair game in most confrontations. The Pyra tends to be difficult to take down in a 1v1 attack (more so even than the aforementioned junker), even from a concealed position from the blind side. A tap of the phoenix claw (I assume) and my advantage seems to be negated; the main guns of the pyra have been brought to bear while my goldfish struggles to deal damage before the Pyra turns the tables.
Could this be that the "weaker" ships need a buff instead of nerfing the heck out of the Pyra? I know that I could use the ability to bring a side gun to bear along with the goldfish's main battery (they don't seem to overlap at all, while the junker, galleon and spire may bring three guns to a fight in the right positioning). Or if a nerf is in order, however slight, maybe compound the pyra's weakness? a few degrees/second less turning power or a small reduction of engine HP might do it to make the ship a higher risk/reward ratio.
Again, as I said, I am new to the game. Even so, I find any match that includes a Pyra to be less fun than others.
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The Pyra tends to be difficult to take down in a 1v1 attack (more so even than the aforementioned junker).
You just described your problem right here. The pyramidion and junker are the game's two main brawlers, they tend to have the advantage in a 1v1 situation. The game is not balanced for 1v1 engagements; make sure you're always communicating and coordinating with your ally, and that you focus your fire on a single enemy. The pyramidion will go down without a problem. If you go at it 1v1, you'll most likely lose unless you're able to sneak up on him from behind or something.
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OK, as I mentioned, I am quite new. I know I still have quite a bit to learn. I'll have to look up some more strategies. I will still stand by what I said though, the Pyra is no fun... :3
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OK, as I mentioned, I am quite new. I know I still have quite a bit to learn. I'll have to look up some more strategies. I will still stand by what I said though, the Pyra is no fun... :3
The pyra is a lot of fun depending on the playstyle you wish to achieve. What you might have ignored is that the other ships all have different purposes. The goldfish doesn't have any overlap, but if you've fought good pilots using it, you will know why the ship is scary as hell. Similar things apply to the Galleon and the Spire. Heck, ever seen RomanKar flying a mobula? That thing just destroys things. Even the Squid can do a good performance if flown correctly. However, none of these ships have the same means to an end. And Pyramidion's tools are the easiest to grasp and the gameplay around it doesn't test your patience as much.
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The strict role assignments which you don't have on any other ship provide a good enviroment to organise and get to know your people.
I have strict role assignments on every ship I pilot... do other players not do this?
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The strict role assignments which you don't have on any other ship provide a good enviroment to organise and get to know your people.
I have strict role assignments on every ship I pilot... do other players not do this?
A lot of new players don't listen, or think that THEIR strategy is better than yours. Plus you sometimes have to describe in detail how the tools work and what has priority when it comes to repairs, otherwise they'll try to rebuild the guns with a mallet while the hull armor is down.
A lot of us (me) get tired of teaching the entire game to a player every other match, and that's only if they listen.
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The strict role assignments which you don't have on any other ship provide a good enviroment to organise and get to know your people.
I have strict role assignments on every ship I pilot... do other players not do this?
I do as long as I'm playing with decent people, but when I get paired with random people who are all engineers who do nothing but shoot and refuse to repair...it becomes enraging to play the game. I can't tell you how many times I as pilot have had to repair everything while the ship just flys on it's own.
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I have strict role assignments on every ship I pilot... do other players not do this?
I think he means that the Pyra's roles are easier to explain and enforce. "You stay on the deck, you two get up on the catwalk and shoot" is easier to understand for a new player than "You sort of hover around the front of the ship, you hover around the middle (except when in combat, then you go to the side) and you sit on this tiny spot that will give you the optimal repair zone."
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I have strict role assignments on every ship I pilot... do other players not do this?
I think he means that the Pyra's roles are easier to explain and enforce. "You stay on the deck, you two get up on the catwalk and shoot" is easier to understand for a new player than "You sort of hover around the front of the ship, you hover around the middle (except when in combat, then you go to the side) and you sit on this tiny spot that will give you the optimal repair zone."
That's what I mean. Especially the engineering aspect requires more situational awareness on other ships. The only "hard" role on a pyra is taking care of the maindeck, imo.
In my experience the Squid's the optimal ship for Anglean, since there isn't really much combat happening.
1 vs 1 encounters happen frequently
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I just want to chime in to defend my beloved ship. If there were stats on which ships you fly, I would imagine I'm easily 90%+ Pyramidion. I love it's ease of teaching new players, and it's outright deadly ability in capable hands. You say Pyra is overused/OP/no fun. I say I want Pyramidion pajamas, boxers, matching bed-sheets, and a Pyramidion model in a bottle to display proudly above my fireplace. Too much Pyramidion? There is no such thing. There can never be enough Pyramidion.
Pyramidion is to GoIO as Ken/Ryu is to Street Fighter. It's not OP, it's just the go-to in the game, and it doesn't mean that other characters/ships can't counter it. I've been playing as Ryu/Ken since about 1992, and I'll never get tired of that either. I hope to someday have accumulated a similar 20+ years behind the wheel of a Pyramidion.
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I have strict role assignments on every ship I pilot... do other players not do this?
I think he means that the Pyra's roles are easier to explain and enforce. "You stay on the deck, you two get up on the catwalk and shoot" is easier to understand for a new player than "You sort of hover around the front of the ship, you hover around the middle (except when in combat, then you go to the side) and you sit on this tiny spot that will give you the optimal repair zone."
I spend a good amount of team each game during the pregame lobby setting positions. Everyone knows which guns and components they're responsible for in which situations. I then call crew members by name when posts need attention and chastise them when they leave their posts. Eventually everyone learns to trust one another allowing all stations to be manned and increasing the efficiency of the ship substantially.
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I just want to chime in to defend my beloved ship. If there were stats on which ships you fly, I would imagine I'm easily 90%+ Pyramidion. I love it's ease of teaching new players, and it's outright deadly ability in capable hands. You say Pyra is overused/OP/no fun. I say I want Pyramidion pajamas, boxers, matching bed-sheets, and a Pyramidion model in a bottle to display proudly above my fireplace. Too much Pyramidion? There is no such thing. There can never be enough Pyramidion.
Pyramidion is to GoIO as Ken/Ryu is to Street Fighter. It's not OP, it's just the go-to in the game, and it doesn't mean that other characters/ships can't counter it. I've been playing as Ryu/Ken since about 1992, and I'll never get tired of that either. I hope to someday have accumulated a similar 20+ years behind the wheel of a Pyramidion.
Lemme guess, Gat/Mortar?
I have nothing against the Pyramidion, I think it's awesome as far as design, function and play style. Its just seeing the same Gat/mortar setup in EVERY match that grinds my gears. I understand that it works, I understand that its the best setup to kill with, but it's not very fun for most people to fly against.
The other day, I was flying my normal bizarre ship setup, trying to add a bit of variety for my crew so they can have some fun and I can study every small nuance of each gun in different spots. The enemy kept using the meta setup in every lobby I'd fly in, so I got pissed and used it myself on Labyrinth. I let my ally Goldfish capture the point while I flew around the map killing the enemy ships before they could even get to the center. It was such a one sided battle that one ship left entirely while the other surrendered at about 300-0.
The domination was fun, but the ship wasn't. I always feel...disappointed in myself when I fly the meta setup, I feel cheap and unoriginal.
So I told my crew "See, too easy. Yall have fun." And logged off for the night.
I think it's also important to say that my crew were two level 3's and one level 2.
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I love my Pyra, but I do feel bad for my crew when I bring gat/mortar all the time (among other reasons). That's one of the reasons why I bring gat/gat every chance I get.
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I love my Pyra, but I do feel bad for my crew when I bring gat/mortar all the time (among other reasons). That's one of the reasons why I bring gat/gat every chance I get.
I've been enjoying flamer/flamer <3 though I have an idea involving mines and mercuries.
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I love my Pyra, but I do feel bad for my crew when I bring gat/mortar all the time (among other reasons). That's one of the reasons why I bring gat/gat every chance I get.
I've been enjoying flamer/flamer <3 though I have an idea involving mines and mercuries.
I still haven't gotten around to trying the double loch mine kamikaze Pyra. Keeps on slipping my mind whenever I fly.
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I have strict role assignments on every ship I pilot... do other players not do this?
I think he means that the Pyra's roles are easier to explain and enforce. "You stay on the deck, you two get up on the catwalk and shoot" is easier to understand for a new player than "You sort of hover around the front of the ship, you hover around the middle (except when in combat, then you go to the side) and you sit on this tiny spot that will give you the optimal repair zone."
I spend a good amount of team each game during the pregame lobby setting positions. Everyone knows which guns and components they're responsible for in which situations. I then call crew members by name when posts need attention and chastise them when they leave their posts. Eventually everyone learns to trust one another allowing all stations to be manned and increasing the efficiency of the ship substantially.
My point is it's WAY easier to organize an unknown crew on a pyra than it is on other ships. Let me elaborate it with two examples:
1. Junker - gat/flak gat double sniper:
You need to make sure that your gunner heads down and takes care of sniper + gat and claping the main engine occasionally - easy.
You want one engi to bring heavy for the front gat and one to bring charged rounds for the mercury.
During sniping the engi with heavy clips needs to take care of the repairs. once you engage enemies in close range he quickly needs to hop to the front gatling gun. During the first seconds of the encounter the engineer with charged rounds is responsible for the repairs (including hull) to allow the second engineer to continue hull stripping. The engi with charged rounds needs to keep track of the battle to jump to the flak just in the moment where it's needed. Depending on the battle situation either the heavy clip engineer or the charged engineer needs to take care of the balloon and steering and/or hull repairs. Also repairing the hull from the front deck isn't intuitive and needs elaboration (and reminders during the match). Bottomline: It's not possible or at least not optimal to assign static roles to the engineers on a Junker. Their duties are rather complicated. Hence I prefer to fly the Junker with engineers I reckon to have some situational awareness.
2. Metamideon - gat mortar front:
You sent 2 people to the top and one on the lower deck and ensure that they bring the appropriate equipment. 2 people have got a very simple task - point 'n shoot hulls + clap the balloon during reload times - easy to teach. This grants some extra time to observe your main engineer to tweak his actions.
Clear, static and straight forward assignments for everyone. Easy to organize and easy to manage.
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Lemme guess, Gat/Mortar?
Actually Merc/Mortar, all day every day (I used to fly exclusively flak/gat til the Heavy Clip nerf). I also always shoot a lot of fireballs when I play as Ryu in Street Fighter. It's just the way I play; with the full intention to win every match. I do that by utilizing what I view as the best attacks I have available to me (Mortar/Hadouken) as efficiently as possible.
I totally respect the fact that you use strange setups on your ship. It's why I love [Cake]. It's how you guys have fun. I have fun by doing everything I can to ensure a win. As long as we're both having fun, I don't see any problem if I, or anyone else, uses whatever the current most effective weapon pairing is 100% of the time.
My point is it's WAY easier to organize an unknown crew on a pyra than it is on other ships. Let me elaborate it with two examples:
Easy junker setup is: Gunner/buffer bottom deck, firing a piercing weapon (merc/gat) 99% of the time, tapping main engine 1% of the time. I suppose if you want to put a real long-range weapon on the front (I usually just use flare), he can do that before you reach engagement, too. Primary engineer on hull, and on hull only, with maybe the OCCASIONAL balloon tap. Secondary engineer watching the engines, balloon, and jumping on the explosive weapon (flak/mortar) only when it's time to get the kill.
It's ALMOST as easy as Pyramidion, as long as you have a good and dedicated engineer who doesn't mind spending the entire match tapping the hull, and one who doesn't mind doing quite a bit more. Honestly, I try to keep 1 engineer on the hull as close to 100% of the time as possible on any ship I fly (Mobula is the only exception).
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No totally, if it works, go for it. We play for different reasons, and that diversity adds depth and more enjoyment.
You can pester me with your killer setup, and I'll pester you with my flames and mines XD
What we should remember, it's that anyone can fly a Pyramidion so everyone has the potential to use meta against other metas.
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yeah but he'd be better with the meta and so would win...
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He's flown on it forever, he's got plenty of experience with it. When I go up against someone I know I stand no chance beating, I either switch to another lobby or use the most annoying setup I can build. I know I'll lose, and I don't want to lay down and take it, so I try my hardest to make it difficult. (hiding, running constantly, chatting with the crew, etc.)
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No the point is that everyone is underestimating what 2 foward pointing front guns can do on a tanky ship like the Pyra.
Its desing is way too optimized, if there was at least a very narrow sweet spot from where you can fire both weapons it would be vaguely more balanced.
And just because you can work around something it doesn't mean that it isn't a problem. It's like saying that irl a f****** tree fallen in the middle of a road isn't a problem and shouldn't be removed because you can just climb over it or offroad and drive around.
Oh yeah. It's not really the weapon combo. It's the two front facing guns combined with the layout of the ship. It's too well designed.
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Oh yeah. It's not really the weapon combo. It's the two front facing guns combined with the layout of the ship. It's too well designed.
Euhm, there's no guns on right side.
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The Pyra tends to be difficult to take down in a 1v1 attack (more so even than the aforementioned junker).
You just described your problem right here. The pyramidion and junker are the game's two main brawlers, they tend to have the advantage in a 1v1 situation. The game is not balanced for 1v1 engagements; make sure you're always communicating and coordinating with your ally, and that you focus your fire on a single enemy. The pyramidion will go down without a problem. If you go at it 1v1, you'll most likely lose unless you're able to sneak up on him from behind or something.
I think this is the problem people are referring to though. The game will come down to 1v1's very often. So if you bring a great 2v2 combo w/teamwork (maybe you have a galleon/squid, or whatever) you force yourself to never ever lose a teammate or you both go down. This is in contrast to a pyra/pyra, junker/junker, junker/pyra team that plays you which if one dies the other is still capable of making a kill alone.
I've played many matches of goldfish/pyra vs. pyra/pyra where we *should* have the upper hand due to teamwork and advanced strategies of taking out ballons and this and that but what it comes down to is you almost have to go 2-0. Otherwise it's at best 1v1 where the pyra bests your galleon or squid, or worst 2v1 with 2 pyras shooting down a galleon or squid.
I realize with excellent teamwork you can overcome the pyra/pyra, but it's so easy to just pyra/pyra, go into a 2v2 and know all you need to do is get it down to a 1v1 and then make the kill leaving the score 2-1. Rinse and repeat, 4-2, etc.
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Though a goldfish can certainly wreck pyras it's not actually a natural counter since it's a disabling ship and you usually want to just killl pyras to eliminate the threat (though disabling 1 and killing the other certainly works well if you do it right).
Junkers, supported galleons and squids good enough to stay out of gun arcs are much more natural pyra counters.
Next time you fly against two pyras and you want to take a goldfish see if your ally will take a Junker. A Junker can usually easily win a 1v1 vs one pyra while you disable the second one and then work with you to secure the final kill.
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So, in a hilarious turn of events, I got really sick of Pyras today. Was it because there were so many that were kicking my butt? No. It was because I kept ending up crewing them. Seriously. I think I had a Goldfish for one match early on, then Pyras all day until I finally begged the Captain seat and switched to my Junker. We won nearly every round, but after a while any ship gets boring.
Just a different perspective on the "We have too many Pyras" issue. Captains- please mix it up once in a while.
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I always fly a Goldfish or a Spire, what are all these Pyras you are talking about?
On more serious note though, if you have problems with people playing too much Pyra you might want to add pilots that fly something else more regularly to your friends list and fly with them more.
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I always fly a Goldfish or a Spire, what are all these Pyras you are talking about?
On more serious note though, if you have problems with people playing too much Pyra you might want to add pilots that fly something else more regularly to your friends list and fly with them more.
Here here! The first step is always to add people, I on average like to fly a Junker of various builds, many of which don't work, mines and flamethrowers, we've got that, harpoons of doom, sometimes but not always.
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A small issue is that us avid forum users and higher levels generally join games from our friends list, so we may be missing what the community at large is missing.
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I still join off random PUG's and see a lot of Pyra usage. I am leaning the Pyra's slow turning rate is beneficial for PUG games where the gunners might not know how to compensate for ship movement. Taking a low level crew on a junker is much less effective than taking a low level crew on the Pyra. The side ways momentum and sportier turning attributes of the junker result in less hits than the steadier Pyra gun platform. An experienced junker crew has a slight advantage over an experienced Pyra crew, but a novice junker crew is at a moderate disadvantage against a novice Pyra crew.
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very well said. Pyra is a low risk, low reward ship. It's maximum potential is easily reached but it is limited when it come to more advanced (or goofy if you're a cake) play.
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Very well said borg. in my honest opinion the best way to take down a pyra is through the dirt.
Its hardy armour is a pain but i find that its more of a struggle for the entire crew (engies + pilot) to maintain their course when they are fighting to keep their baloon in order.
Since it can barely turn and its engines aren't powerful enough to bring itself to a stop while falling, it ends up dragging its entire body through the ground.*
*what i mean about this is that when its hit the floor most captains keep going forward instead of stopping increasing the damage to the ship as the go.**
** want to see what i mean? get some sand paper and place your hand on it... then try placing your hand on it while moving your hand in a direction with some force.
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Fighting against a Pyra/Junker meta setup with a Blenderfish and Squid reinforces what Gambrill said. I'd tell my gunner to shoot both ships and keep them sinking while the Squid went around gatling/mortaring their faces. I didn't realize how easy it was to kill a Pyra from above. You can do damage to the armor and hull when they're below you where with a ship like the Junker, the balloon is almost like a shield. If you can get them on the ground, it's an easy kill.
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I think what the pyra needs is a buff to its speed, and a nerf to its maneuverability. My reasoning for this is not to simply nerf the ship but more specialize (just like all the other ships). This change would make the pyra closer to a 'niche' ship for ramming and head on attacks, and less of a brawler (and overall tank), because the brawler niche is already filled by the junker I believe that this would encourage clever helm skills and teamwork (as apposed to more pyras) to counter the metamydion, and give the pyramidion a unique identity thereby making it more satisfying to pilot.
The concept I poking at here is specialization, not just this specific buff
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I've said this before and I'll say it again: nerfing the Pyramidion's turning speed, hull armour, or whatever will not stop it from dominating some pub matches as it currently does. The problem with the Pyramidion isn't that it's too powerful. At best it's the second-best ship in the game. The problem is that it's straightforward to crew on, so it's much easier to figure out how to run it effectively than a ship that would otherwise be better, like the Junker. Short of a fundamental layout change, there isn't really a means of making the ship less accessible to people. So how do we solve the problem? Take a look at another ship that's straightforward to crew on: the Goldfish. I remember when that thing was the go-to ship for newcomers. Why isn't it anymore? Because unlike the Pyra, which is both straightforward and very effective, the Goldfish is straightforward yet mildly effective (I'm sorry, but it's the sad truth about the ship right now, especially compared to how it used to be). So to bring the Goldfish more to the forefront, well, it could use a buff. I don't actually know what it could use specifically, but giving it some love could result in there being a little more diversity in pub matches. As for the other ships? Better tutorials. Teaching players and giving them a general idea of how to make a Junker work, for example, would go a long way to increasing usage of such ships in pub matches.
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what i am suggesting is not a nerf to the pyra, I understand and completely agree with what you just said. What I am suggesting is that we a find a way the SPECIALIZE the pyramidion (maybe as a ramming/charging ship) This would give it a unique role making it a more interesting and satisfying ship to run
Every ship needs it role. right the pyra does everything.
my problem with pyra is not that it is op but instead that it is just no fun
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I understand that, but I still don't see much good coming out of it, to be honest. In pub matches, it'd still be the main brawler unless its turning was practically removed. They've tried nerfing its turning speed, acceleration, and vertical acceleration before while also making it one of the fastest ships, and none of it made it more specialized. It continued to be used as an all-out brawler. At a competitive level (not that that's a huge priority for Muse), it'd likely just get replaced entirely by the Junker.
Actually, what you said highlights a very big problem with the game right now.
Killing outright is better than just about anything else. That's the reason why gat/mortar, the Pyra, the Junker, and the Galleon are so good, whereas Goldfishes, carronade-flamer combos, and specialized ramming builds aren't. Any ship that can bring a piercing-explosive combo and has the stats to back it up will be effective. The Spire can bring piercing-explosive, but it'll die the moment a fly lands on it. On the other hand, the Junker can bring piercing-explosive and can take hits well. The Goldfish can survive longer than most other ships, but it's held back by the fact that it can only reliably get one gun on a target at any given time.
So that's something to think about: if we want more diversity in this game, maybe it's time to look at bringing back disablers and support ships.
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You say that sunderland but they HAVE buffed Flame based weapons and ammo to the point that fire is now almost as deadly as flapping your arse cheeks in a jet engine. and we all know that the carronade is more than effective. all i could suggest in this point is maybe make the ships heavier? fall a bit quicker? increasing the mortars reload speed or lowering its fire rate slightly might be a suggestion too. i mean as gunner theres nothing i love more than greased rounds on a mortar. but even i know that im going to get a kill as long as my pilot stays on track.
Gambrill's Fav weapons + Ammo combo
Banshee + Greased (Enjoy the firework show)
Flamer + Greased (Enjoy the quick stacks)
Mortar + Greased (Enjoy the Splodey)
Manticore + Greased (see mortar)
Barking Dog + Greased (Goodbye baloon)
Heavy Carronade + Charged (ballon and engines are doomed)
Other Weps + anything (Meh)
Yeah just call me Greasy Gambrill :/
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Killing outright is better than just about anything else. That's the reason why gat/mortar, the Pyra, the Junker, and the Galleon are so good, whereas Goldfishes, carronade-flamer combos, and specialized ramming builds aren't. Any ship that can bring a piercing-explosive combo and has the stats to back it up will be effective. The Spire can bring piercing-explosive, but it'll die the moment a fly lands on it. On the other hand, the Junker can bring piercing-explosive and can take hits well. The Goldfish can survive longer than most other ships, but it's held back by the fact that it can only reliably get one gun on a target at any given time.
So that's something to think about: if we want more diversity in this game, maybe it's time to look at bringing back disablers and support ships.
Quite, I have to fully agree with this.
It's one of the reasons I switched from the Hellhound to the Hwacha on my Goldy after all, since I was locked to using that and only that, while the long reload of the Hwacha allowed for some broadside gunning which helped a lot.
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Killing outright is better than just about anything else. That's the reason why gat/mortar, the Pyra, the Junker, and the Galleon are so good, whereas Goldfishes, carronade-flamer combos, and specialized ramming builds aren't. Any ship that can bring a piercing-explosive combo and has the stats to back it up will be effective. The Spire can bring piercing-explosive, but it'll die the moment a fly lands on it. On the other hand, the Junker can bring piercing-explosive and can take hits well. The Goldfish can survive longer than most other ships, but it's held back by the fact that it can only reliably get one gun on a target at any given time.
So that's something to think about: if we want more diversity in this game, maybe it's time to look at bringing back disablers and support ships.
Quite, I have to fully agree with this.
It's one of the reasons I switched from the Hellhound to the Hwacha on my Goldy after all, since I was locked to using that and only that, while the long reload of the Hwacha allowed for some broadside gunning which helped a lot.
You can get a bifecta with the Heavy Carronade + Artemis
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Killing outright is better than just about anything else. That's the reason why gat/mortar, the Pyra, the Junker, and the Galleon are so good, whereas Goldfishes, carronade-flamer combos, and specialized ramming builds aren't. Any ship that can bring a piercing-explosive combo and has the stats to back it up will be effective. The Spire can bring piercing-explosive, but it'll die the moment a fly lands on it. On the other hand, the Junker can bring piercing-explosive and can take hits well. The Goldfish can survive longer than most other ships, but it's held back by the fact that it can only reliably get one gun on a target at any given time.
So that's something to think about: if we want more diversity in this game, maybe it's time to look at bringing back disablers and support ships.
Quite, I have to fully agree with this.
It's one of the reasons I switched from the Hellhound to the Hwacha on my Goldy after all, since I was locked to using that and only that, while the long reload of the Hwacha allowed for some broadside gunning which helped a lot.
You can get a bifecta with the Heavy Carronade + Artemis
It's at the very tip of both gun arcs, very hard to keep it active, it's easier with a Banshee, but those are the only guns that can overlap and I guess I can't be arsed to hold the ship at the very edge of both my firing arcs just to get this bi-fecta, it's realy not worth the extra trouble 90% of the time.
Plus the Artemis doesn't help all that much, I mean, I'm better off going a Carronade/Artemis Squid if that's what I wanna do and I will be faster, plus the Light carronade has more total damage than the Heavy one, it's simply not beneficial or easy to get a bi-fecta on a Goldfish since most gun arcs can't overlap reliably, so I found it easier to just use a Hwacha and use the spare time to point the broadside gun on them.
Now if the side guns were turned 45 degrees forward there would be a lot more you could do with your broadsides... eh, a man can dream.
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Killing outright is better than just about anything else. That's the reason why gat/mortar, the Pyra, the Junker, and the Galleon are so good, whereas Goldfishes, carronade-flamer combos, and specialized ramming builds aren't. Any ship that can bring a piercing-explosive combo and has the stats to back it up will be effective. The Spire can bring piercing-explosive, but it'll die the moment a fly lands on it. On the other hand, the Junker can bring piercing-explosive and can take hits well. The Goldfish can survive longer than most other ships, but it's held back by the fact that it can only reliably get one gun on a target at any given time.
So that's something to think about: if we want more diversity in this game, maybe it's time to look at bringing back disablers and support ships.
Quite, I have to fully agree with this.
It's one of the reasons I switched from the Hellhound to the Hwacha on my Goldy after all, since I was locked to using that and only that, while the long reload of the Hwacha allowed for some broadside gunning which helped a lot.
You can get a bifecta with the Heavy Carronade + Artemis
It's at the very tip of both gun arcs, very hard to keep it active, it's easier with a Banshee, but those are the only guns that can overlap and I guess I can't be arsed to hold the ship at the very edge of both my firing arcs just to get this bi-fecta, it's realy not worth the extra trouble 90% of the time.
Plus the Artemis doesn't help all that much, I mean, I'm better off going a Carronade/Artemis Squid if that's what I wanna do and I will be faster, plus the Light carronade has more total damage than the Heavy one, it's simply not beneficial or easy to get a bi-fecta on a Goldfish since most gun arcs can't overlap reliably, so I found it easier to just use a Hwacha and use the spare time to point the broadside gun on them.
Now if the side guns were turned 45 degrees forward there would be a lot more you could do with your broadsides... eh, a man can dream.
If you say so. I find it quite easy since there is a marker for the bifecta point, the "V" ropes above the throttle in first person is where you want to aim. Also, The Heavy Carronade + Heavy Clip = Balloon down in 1 clip. The Artemis can disable engines and Heavy weapons while you take their balloon and armor down, plus it has explosive to help with the kill. I would argue that your not supposed to be looking for kills with a Goldfish anyway, just trying to give your ally an edge over them.
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After sunderland's repeated pounding of the idea into my apparently thick skull I think I finnally get it. The fundamental problem is that the prolonged multi-stage battle is no longer practical. i.e. why pop a ships ballon and then kill them when you could just kill them twice as fast?
without the eloquent wording I believe that is the point he is trying to make, and I (in a rather defeated manner) musty say I agree. I think we need to find a way to bring the disabler back, the affect of this hopefully being that teamwork and stratedgy could take a jump to a whole new level and maybe we could see longer, multidimensional battles.
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Hwacha - Goldfish used to be an amazing disabler until the Heavy Clip change. Imo Hwacha Goldfish is no longer as viable. But even back when Heavy wasn't changed the Goldfish and Galleon were the only true "support" ships. Right now the Heavy Carronade Goldfish imo is the only Brawler-Support ship that can disable a ship effectively. All other "support" style play is mostly Snipers with Lumberjacks or Hwacha - Goldfish, but again, imo Hwacha Goldfish is no longer as big a threat as it used to be.
So... yes, support play needs a buff. I've sent Muse an e-mail regarding this, and they have told me it's being worked on and experiments are going down trying to make it more viable.
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If you say so. I find it quite easy since there is a marker for the bifecta point, the "V" ropes above the throttle in first person is where you want to aim. Also, The Heavy Carronade + Heavy Clip = Balloon down in 1 clip. The Artemis can disable engines and Heavy weapons while you take their balloon and armor down, plus it has explosive to help with the kill. I would argue that your not supposed to be looking for kills with a Goldfish anyway, just trying to give your ally an edge over them.
Nidh plis, I showed you how that carronade works, I'm fully aware of what it's capable of as I've been running it since 1.2 before any changes to Heavy. ( I still miss old Lochnagar.. )
The 45 degree arc change was just a silly idea I had because me and Sunderland had a discussion going about how to 'buff' the Goldfish, aka how to break the ship.
Anyway, both weapons do their own thing, Heavy is realy crap from close range on a Hwacha now, can't count the times we had a 0 disable barrage cause of all the rounds hitting the same empty spot, ammo switching needs to be done in advanace and it requires more timing and precision than before, which is kinda detrimental to this gun since the long reload time and the chances of it getting disabled and loading the wrong rounds is high.
I also know about the V ropes and the place behind the altimeter, Artemis can't have a perfect bifecta with some angles, tested it a lot beforehand, but it is still one of the most viable Blenderfish side guns, which is why I ran two of these on Cogs (and not 2 harpoons for those that watched the stream > .>)
An other thing is, the smaller clip the hwacha has with Heavy Clip reduced it's killing power with Heavy by a lot, so long range kills are much harder.
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It's just not that hard to keep the bifecta is all I'm saying, and in my experience it is very much worth having a buffed Artemis on the side. In fact, I tell the buff-engie to ignore the front gun and just buff the Artemis, buffing the Heavy Carronade wastes too much time imo. But that's besides the point. I agree with you guys that 2-killing ships outshine the support roles, and it's being worked on.
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Honestly I'm not convinced outright killing heavily outshines disabling; to be certain it's definitely the meta right now, and I think that's likely due to it being easier and more gratifying to make the quick kill. But disabling in my opinion is just as effective.
Also, just as a side note, Muse can't really make disabling too good, because anytime something is really effective at disabling it really draws down the fun factor for new players. For example look through the forum and see the bajillion of posts regarding the old artemis, the old carronades or the current lumberjack and manticore.
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From my knowledge they are not specifically making disabling better, but outright killing harder.
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the current lumberjack
Well, it IS the most powerful gun in the game at the moment in terms of both disabling and armor breaking.
Sure not overpowered, but it is kinda broken, very slightly to warrant any significant changes though.
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the current lumberjack
Well, it IS the most powerful gun in the game at the moment in terms of both disabling and armor breaking.
Sure not overpowered, but it is kinda broken, very slightly to warrant any significant changes though.
It's also not quite the easiest gun to hit with and pilot for.
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It's also not quite the easiest gun to hit with and pilot for.
Hitting with it depents on the range, usually closer range hits are very easy, especially with Lesmok. Hitting consistently at ranges further than 1500 meters is a competitive only issue which shouldn't be affecting the gun's balance in the first place.
Piloting for it only requires understanding the basic concept of sniping:
1. Park ship.
2.????
3. Profit if your gunner can aim.
Though we are derailing a bit. Sorry ^^'
EDIT: 4. No twitching around for no reason.
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It's also not quite the easiest gun to hit with and pilot for.
Hitting with it depents on the range, usually closer range hits are very easy, especially with Lesmok. Hitting consistently at ranges further than 1500 meters is a competitive only issue which shouldn't be affecting the gun's balance in the first place.
Piloting for it only requires understanding the basic concept of sniping:
1. Park ship.
2.????
3. Profit if your gunner can aim.
Though we are derailing a bit. Sorry ^^'
You'd think it was that easy, but it's much easier said than done. I personally cannot hit the broad side of a barn with the lumber, no idea why. But yeah, I guess this belongs more in the guns balance thread or something.
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In a one on one the disabler may be outclassed, however in organized team play the disabler is fantastic. My twin carronade Junker can efficiently kill a balloon and take out a few engines in at least two volleys and then rise to attack the other ship with my partner
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In a one on one the disabler may be outclassed, however in organized team play the disabler is fantastic. My twin carronade Junker can efficiently kill a balloon and take out a few engines in at least two volleys and then rise to attack the other ship with my partner
We are talking about ships that are mostly focused on disabling, like the Goldfish, Squid in most cases as well and the Spire. ( I think at least.. )
The Junker can fill both the role of a disabler and a killer at once while these ships usually will have to focus on one over the other.
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As I continue to fly against nothing but metas, I grow increasingly tired of piloting at all, which is depressing since it's my favorite thing to do.
The way I have fun on GoIO is by trying bizarre builds and finding which ones are fun to use. Ships like mortar/flamer Squid, mining Junker, dual flamer Pyra, carronade Junker, and many more odd setups. When the enemy team is nothing but meta Pyramidions and Junkers, I can't fly these fun builds of mine, otherwise it's an almost guaranteed loss. Instead, I have to switch to a meta or one of my counter ships which aren't as fun.
Now, I'd be fine if I only had to do it every once in awhile, but it's every match. Every. Single. One. The Pyramidion is not overpowered, the gat/mortar Pyramidion is.
I love a good fight, and I don't mind losing in one of those. I could fly my fun builds against the metas, but losing isn't fun in these fights. Its a one-sided steamrolling.
Guns of Icarus should be about customizing your ship to find interesting combos that work, as well as good teamwork and communication. Instead, it's whoever can pilot the metamidion better. Its almost as if the Pyra shouldn't be customizable since everyone uses the same damn thing.
What is Zenark's playing experience in GoIO? Countering metas. This is all I ever do anymore. I can't DO anything else. I don't fly against skilled pilots with unique ideas. I fly against skilled pilots with NO originality whatsoever. These pilots are boring to fight against, alongside, and to play as one of their crew members.
I don't know if these pilots are just so bad that they can't fly anything else, or are focused on nothing but winning; I'm going to assume the former. Note that I say this about pubs, and competitive play.
I realize, at this moment, there's nothing I can do about it. I'll just jump on a Cake ship, fight against the metas, and force a fake, metaphorical smile.
Good game.
Happy birthday.
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Another nagging from a pilot who does not know how to play the meta(or does not have crew, that good enough), and uses a cheap excuse in the form of *unique and interesting builds.*
I'll just jump on a Frogger ship, fight against the hypocritical *originality*, and and truly, sincerely smile.
Nice try.
Happy new year!
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I don't enjoy flying meta, it's all I did in my early days of flying. I'll only fly it nowadays when an ally asks or I want to prove a point.
It's cool that you can crew on a meta, good for you. I'm glad you can enjoy it. I don't, and that's my opinion. Do not accuse me of being a bad pilot or insult my clan because I prefer different builds.
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It's fun blowing ppl up in 4 seconds :D
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NO originality whatsoever
these pilots are just so bad
Judge not, that ye be not judged
where did i exactly insult ur clan?
lol, Do not accuse us of being a bad and boring pilots, only cause we are prefer different builds.
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NO originality whatsoever
these pilots are just so bad
Judge not, that ye be not judged
where did i exactly insult ur clan?
Did I point at anyone specifically? No. But you directed your negativity towards me and those I fly worth, ie. My clan.
I'm not going to turn this into a flame war (Cake clan, flames, lol) I posted my opinion, let's discuss, not point fingers.
It's fun blowing ppl up in 4 seconds :D
Agreed, as long as there's at least some challenge behind it. I love close calls.
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U were talking about pilots, that are flying gat/mortar meta. Hm, wait, a lot of ppl flying it (Frogger, Smollet and etc), every clan?:D
I'm not going to turn this into a flame war (flames, lol, indeed), because there is nothing to discuss about, there are only opinions here.
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Our clan doesn't, don't lump us in with you guys, even if a lot of the people in other clans are pretty cool. ANYWAYS. Pyra OP nerf pls, discuss.
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Our clan doesn't, don't lump us in with you guys, even if a lot of the people in other clans are pretty cool. ANYWAYS. Pyra OP nerf pls, discuss.
No.
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How about this. Let's come to a compromise.
The Pyramidion is overused, not overpowered.
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I figure the Pyramidion is only a problem with gat/mortar. Once we eventually have more guns and therefore a more spread out meta, the Pyra will even out. I'm sure it'll still be the easy ship that newer players use, but it won't be in 90% of matches.
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We can only hope Zenark, until then.
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I think that the problem with this whole thing is that there will always be the "best" meta. There's always going to be a particular build, or certain ship, or right strategy that is the current most effective one. Right now, that's the Gatling/Morter Pyramidion, because the combination of easy to learn, easy to fly and easy to kill with makes it the simplest, quickest thing for new players to learn. And it's wishful thinking to want players to intentionally hobble themselves just to make things more "interesting." I'd lay money that most of the people who fly the current meta either figured it out themselves or noticed how well it worked against them. They saw what was good, and they want to win. Who can blame them?
Does this mean I'm not sick to death of flying with/on/against Gat/Mortar Pyras? Absolutely not. It's to the point where I'm tempted to leave the lobby if my captain switches to Pyra, or that I take captain myself (which I don't like doing unless I know my crew well) just so I can switch to something else. But, even if all our dreams come true and something happens to reduce the attractiveness of that setup ... there will emerge some other combination that people will latch onto. I mean, any ship that can pull off Gat/Mortar is a problem. The Junker, the Pyra, the Mobula...they can all kill things very fast.
I'd love for something a little more fun to fight against, yeah, but we're always going to be stuck with some sort of metagame.
P.S. Zenark, I'd love to fly with you sometime- it sounds like a blast. :3
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Oh yes, Eukari~ We'll have to do the Mine Squid! XD only time I've ever heard someone say that Mines were OP.
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This probably sounds strange coming from me but unless I'm practicing I usually fly a squid or some crazy mine Junker in pub matches and I never really have problems with metamidions.
Perhaps by flying one so often I've gotten used to its weaknesses, but I usually don't have an issue countering them.
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I agree, countering them isn't too difficult, it's just repetitive. How do you get past that? Or does it not even affect you?
I think I need to set some stuff on fire, maybe stick a few mines up a Pyramidion's aft.
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The problem here isn't really if the Pyrimidion is over-powered or if gat/mortar is over-powered, it's that disabling is under-powered.
And I can't, for the life of me, find out why.
We have all of these amazing weapons for breaking other ship's toys (Mercury gun, Manticore, Carronades, Lumberjack), but we see predominately piercing/explosive oriented ships across the board. The only time you ever see a disabling weapon in competitive play is on a Galleon.
My guess? The Galleon is the only ship that can afford disablers.
It's high armor and perma helps it survive a 2v1 long enough for allied assistance.
Most other disabler builds can maybe effectively disable another ship in a fight, but keeping two down while your ally goes in for the kills requires too much luck and skill to be effective.
I'm not saying piercing/explosive takes no skill, it's just so much harder to keep a good crew disabled than it is to outright kill them. We can all agree on that.
Besides, why disable them when it doesn't take that much more effort to kill them?
Don't get me wrong. I'm not calling for a gat/mortar or piercing/explosive nerf.
I'm not suggesting we wait for there to be more weapons to play, either
I'm not even necessarily asking for a disabler damage buff either.
We just need to make disableing more effective. It needs to work better with an ally. It needs to be able to survive on its own.
How to do this fairly?
Frankly, I haven't got a clue.
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Fire is realy not that effective against guns anymore
Carronades can't even imagive of sitting in a safe arc despite how hard to is to approach someone with them, plus they make the enemy fall out of their own arcs.
Hwacha used to be slightly more effective with the old Heavy clip, but it took a small hit.
Artemis can't aim up.
Realy, any disabling weapon that isn't the Lumberjack is getting a lot of shit running for it. Disabling weapons are disabled themselves in some way or an other, hence end up just not being the most effective thing ever.
Also Kirk, the Galleon can afford a lot of disables cause it just has enough gun ports to use both killing and disabling weapons :P
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Also Kirk, the Galleon can afford a lot of disables cause it just has enough gun ports to use both killing and disabling weapons :P
Thus further proving my point.
Disablers UP.
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James, i found the Carronade and banshee is quite effective. with the disabling baloon, explosive damage + aoe (also good for hull damage) and fire stack chance it makes this quite a lethal build if you get a small ammount of time on a hostile.
The pyramidion is not Overpowered. I find it to be one of the easiest ships to kill.... WITH THE RIGHT SHIP!!! The Pyramidion is terrible at turning, correct? then use a fast ship to exploit that weakness! I run rings around a pyramidion with my amazing gungineer B'Elanna torching everything they own.
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I run rings around a pyramidion with my amazing gungineer B'Elanna torching everything they own.
Every time, there is always going to be a lot of burning.
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I run rings around a pyramidion with my amazing gungineer B'Elanna torching everything they own.
Every time, there is always going to be a lot of burning.
HMS Slightly Toasted, at your service ;D
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James, i found the Carronade and banshee is quite effective. with the disabling baloon, explosive damage + aoe (also good for hull damage) and fire stack chance it makes this quite a lethal build if you get a small ammount of time on a hostile.
Implying that your enemy is realy not that stupid, you won't be getting much time on them, the moment they activate Phoenix you have something like 3 seconds before they have arcs on you (If it's a Pyra, if It's a Junker it's even less), that's where you start to realize that maybe this loadout is good on paper and CAN perform, but in reality the prequisites for it to work properly almost never go according to plan against competent opponents cause they will abuse your weapon's disability to follow them lower or higher while you can't abuse the arcs of a gun like say.. the Gatling, that can aim through the freaking floor of a ship, you can't abuse the Gatling's arcs, but you abuse every single disabling weapon's arc very much.
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I've stayed away from this discussion just because I have nothing really to add, but I'll toss a bone in to see what discussion comes of it :
You can now shoot through the nose of a pyra thanks to a recent patch. Mayhaps this has amplified the "problem" of too many pyra's flying about.
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You can now shoot through the nose of a pyra thanks to a recent patch. Mayhaps this has amplified the "problem" of too many pyra's flying about.
Having one less blindspot on that ship surely is a pain, but I doupt more people suddenly started using it cause of that.
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Well no of course not. However I think plenty of people would agree that it simply made it that much easier to use.
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James, i found the Carronade and banshee is quite effective. with the disabling baloon, explosive damage + aoe (also good for hull damage) and fire stack chance it makes this quite a lethal build if you get a small ammount of time on a hostile.
Implying that your enemy is realy not that stupid, you won't be getting much time on them, the moment they activate Phoenix you have something like 3 seconds before they have arcs on you (If it's a Pyra, if It's a Junker it's even less), that's where you start to realize that maybe this loadout is good on paper and CAN perform, but in reality the prequisites for it to work properly almost never go according to plan against competent opponents cause they will abuse your weapon's disability to follow them lower or higher while you can't abuse the arcs of a gun like say.. the Gatling, that can aim through the freaking floor of a ship, you can't abuse the Gatling's arcs, but you abuse every single disabling weapon's arc very much.
Pheonix claw doesn't help a pyramidion if it's turning engines are damaged or broken.
I'm guessing Gambril has been setting fire to those props and it's pretty hard for a pyra to pheonix claw, fix the hull, put out engine fires, repair engines and shoot both front guns; something has got to give and the pyra will either lose a gun to repairs or let you saunter into their blind spot.
Also if you plan on bringing carronades on your ship you should plan on bringing chute vent as well. It's risky for your enemy to try to get below your carronade arc because it makes them that much closer to the ground.
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Pheonix claw doesn't help a pyramidion if it's turning engines are damaged or broken.
I'm guessing Gambril has been setting fire to those props and it's pretty hard for a pyra to pheonix claw, fix the hull, put out engine fires, repair engines and shoot both front guns; something has got to give and the pyra will either lose a gun to repairs or let you saunter into their blind spot.
Also if you plan on bringing carronades on your ship you should plan on bringing chute vent as well. It's risky for your enemy to try to get below your carronade arc because it makes them that much closer to the ground.
Doesn't change the fact that you only have a very small window of opportunity to do that and I was generous and implied your enemy was not aware of you till you were directly behind them, in most normal situations they will just see you way earlier and you will have much less time to shoot at their engines, in which case you are at severe disadvantage since you bear no major killing power yourself, this is why I don't like the current meta all that much, disabling bears a very high risk against ships with solo killing power while the reward ain't all that great as people make it out to be unless executed very well.
Satisfying to pull off? Sure.
Efficient like straight out kill builds? Definately no.
also, I hope nobody here is implying an 1v1 cause that's almost never the case, fine you pulled off a very risky move of disabling the Pyra before it turned around, you still have his ally to take care of, an ally that can still probably kill you easily by himself. So why disable the Pyra and let your ally finish him while you could just straight out kill the damn thing faster and then focus down his ally?
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Also I realy apologize for further derailing this thread (if the original topic was even worthwile anyway..)
I'm not arguing the Pyra is OP btw, that ship is perfectly fine, if you wanna look at an OP ship look at the Junker.
This purely about how disabling is realy not a role you focus in while remaining at 100% efficiency.
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Hey I started a new discussion on the premise of a "kill ship" since that seems to be the root of the "Pyra or Junker is OP" problem.
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2300.new.html#new
If you'd like we can channel that through there so that the actual arguments are more focused/easily read.
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James, i found the Carronade and banshee is quite effective. with the disabling baloon, explosive damage + aoe (also good for hull damage) and fire stack chance it makes this quite a lethal build if you get a small ammount of time on a hostile.
Implying that your enemy is realy not that stupid, you won't be getting much time on them, the moment they activate Phoenix you have something like 3 seconds before they have arcs on you (If it's a Pyra, if It's a Junker it's even less), that's where you start to realize that maybe this loadout is good on paper and CAN perform, but in reality the prequisites for it to work properly almost never go according to plan against competent opponents cause they will abuse your weapon's disability to follow them lower or higher while you can't abuse the arcs of a gun like say.. the Gatling, that can aim through the freaking floor of a ship, you can't abuse the Gatling's arcs, but you abuse every single disabling weapon's arc very much.
Well my 'paper plan' has been effective so far. i don't just sit around and let them get an arc on me. i go higher/lower/reverse and full accelerate to keep the pilot and gunners having a hard time. the moment that baloon has popped the pilot finds it very hard to keep an arc on me Echoez. a pyra is doomed if its baloon is focused on enough.
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Again, that only happens if you get a very good disable from their flanks, which as stated, is mostly not the case unless you catch your enemy completely off guard.
Their ally can still kill you while you can't realy kill anything nearly as fast and rely on your ally to do all the killing. A sucessful quick kill with a Heavy carronade for example can only happen with a coordinated ally charing the same target as you and focusing them down fast while you use your superior burst damage to get a quick advantage for a little while, if anything goes wrong your quick kill will suddenly take 4 times longer to get.
Matches in which there is some slightly major skill difference between players simply don't count, I mostly see level 4 and 6 pilots in the enemy team, who are mostly just not experienced anough to deal with the disable, not the disable being actually effective.
And any ship is doomed if you focus their balloon long enough, it's not only the Pyra, yet, you mostly won't have a good chance to do so cause:
1) focusing on one balloon only is pretty bad since you leave the other enemy afloat and able to kill you or your ally.
2) an experienced pilot will probably just let his ship slide below your arcs, repair and then dodge you, which means a lot of precious time you lose because of horrid arcs.
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2) an experienced pilot will probably just let his ship slide below your arcs, repair and then dodge you, which means a lot of precious time you lose because of horrid arcs.
Chute vent + buffed balloon + throttle control = enemy always in gun arc
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2) an experienced pilot will probably just let his ship slide below your arcs, repair and then dodge you, which means a lot of precious time you lose because of horrid arcs.
Chute vent + buffed balloon + throttle control = enemy always in gun arc
They can use that too you know (usually they will just let their balloon down anyway so you lose gun arcs), if they are clever they will move right below you when you can't hit em anymore. Also I already know that, and it's not always true, just because you bring the tools doesn't mean you will stay in gun arcs forever, let's not forget that by using that you will most probably also keep yourself in their gun arcs, which is something you want to avoid in the first place.
Aka, the problem is still one and the same, by staying on target you are basically staying within their gun arcs, which means they can still kill you while you can't. That's only about the carronades though, which is not the whole point.
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They can use that too you know (usually they will just let their balloon down anyway so you lose gun arcs), if they are clever they will move right below you when you can't hit em anymore. Also I already know that, and it's not always true, just because you bring the tools doesn't mean you will stay in gun arcs forever, let's not forget that by using that you will most probably also keep yourself in their gun arcs, which is something you want to avoid in the first place.
Aka, the problem is still one and the same, by staying on target you are basically staying within their gun arcs, which means they can still kill you while you can't. That's only about the carronades though, which is not the whole point.
I still believe that it is generally easier to keep arcs on someone than it is to escape guns arcs.
Especially against someone who is familiar with the way to pilot. Chucking the engines into reverse and dropping while turning slightly back to keep them tangent to your guns could make that strategy backfire. Good use of terrain could counter the counter and so forth. I think we're starting to get into advanced tactical theories here.
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Again, the point is not keeping gun arcs on them, it's doing so while staying out of theirs, since you can't kill them nearly as fast as they can kill you, you need to avoid their guns, which brings us back to this subject, the gun forces you into the enemy's gun lines if you want keep arcs, the problem is not HOW you keep arcs, it's how you do it without getting your shit blow at the same time, else, no point in actually disabling, why not use a gatling, stay above your enemy where he can't hit you but you still can cause:
(http://i.imgur.com/Kce5iUC.jpg)
and just kill them all together, why disable? No point realy.
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If I can engage a Pyri at 1000 yards, I will kill it every time with a Mobula. The Mobula's downside is easy to see and exploit, the Pyri's not so much. the Pyri actually has about as big a blind spot as the Mobula, but no one really tries to use that to their advantage. This is also why a Junker can own a Pyri, the junker can more easily get into that blindspot and never lose arc.
The pyri is not OP, it's just the easiest to use with PUGs. The rest of the ships actually take some coordination.
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The pyri is not OP, it's just the easiest to use with PUGs. The rest of the ships actually take some coordination.
Can I just copy/paste this every time this issue comes up from now on? It basically says everything that needs to be said.
As to the somewhat-off-topic conversation going on above...I think the whole "keeping them in your arcs while avoiding their arcs" is basically 90% of what learning to be a good pilot is all about. 5% is telling the other captains you're doing it, and the final 5% is listening to them do the same.
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As to the somewhat-off-topic conversation going on above...I think the whole "keeping them in your arcs while avoiding their arcs" is basically 90% of what learning to be a good pilot is all about. 5% is telling the other captains you're doing it, and the final 5% is listening to them do the same.
Except when your guns simply disallow you to do so I guess huh?
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James, i found the Carronade and banshee is quite effective. with the disabling baloon, explosive damage + aoe (also good for hull damage) and fire stack chance it makes this quite a lethal build if you get a small ammount of time on a hostile.
Implying that your enemy is realy not that stupid, you won't be getting much time on them, the moment they activate Phoenix you have something like 3 seconds before they have arcs on you (If it's a Pyra, if It's a Junker it's even less), that's where you start to realize that maybe this loadout is good on paper and CAN perform, but in reality the prequisites for it to work properly almost never go according to plan against competent opponents cause they will abuse your weapon's disability to follow them lower or higher while you can't abuse the arcs of a gun like say.. the Gatling, that can aim through the freaking floor of a ship, you can't abuse the Gatling's arcs, but you abuse every single disabling weapon's arc very much.
Pheonix claw doesn't help a pyramidion if it's turning engines are damaged or broken.
I'm guessing Gambril has been setting fire to those props and it's pretty hard for a pyra to pheonix claw, fix the hull, put out engine fires, repair engines and shoot both front guns; something has got to give and the pyra will either lose a gun to repairs or let you saunter into their blind spot.
Also if you plan on bringing carronades on your ship you should plan on bringing chute vent as well. It's risky for your enemy to try to get below your carronade arc because it makes them that much closer to the ground.
mhmm it just feels as though im thought that i just fly around them not actually damaging them, like im throwing snowballs at someone with an assault rifle. And thats a nice idea with the chute vent too! :)
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As to the somewhat-off-topic conversation going on above...I think the whole "keeping them in your arcs while avoiding their arcs" is basically 90% of what learning to be a good pilot is all about. 5% is telling the other captains you're doing it, and the final 5% is listening to them do the same.
Except when your guns simply disallow you to do so I guess huh?
Then get better guns! (I kid, I kid)
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Buffing my balloon is my most important buff when I fly with carronades.