Lumberjack Discussion

[N-Sunderland]

This is a pretty hot topic, and it'd be best if the discussion on this matter had its own thread. So here we go.

Continuing on from the guns balance thread, you may discuss whether the lumberjack is overpowered or not.

[Ofiach]

3300 damage to the balloon
690 damage to armor
570 damage to the permahull

Tell me a gun that even comes close for Per clip damage to so many important systems.

Also these points are never really addressed there's just an it's fine leave it alone attitude.... there's really no counter argument going on. It's just people going nuh uhhhh its fine.

I can go into a forum for an FPS game and just resist the FACT that a single shot kill semi auto sniper rifle is boring and ruins the game. I don't even need to bring in facts like TTK or ease of use into it, I can just resist. That's exactly whats happening here. Resistance with nothing behind it.

[Imagine]

I don't suppose there's any way to make this into a poll?

[Belcard]

For the sake of being thorough, my original post: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,771.msg20161.html#msg20161

As an afterthought, if Muse really wants to leave the Lumberjack as it is, I thought of a third course of action they can take. Instead of tweaking or changing the Lumberjack from where it stands, perhaps doing an overhaul of balloon HP might be worth looking into.

Example

Squid: 900 - Two shots to pop the balloon
Spire: 1,200 - Three shots to pop the balloon
Goldfish: 1,400 - Three shots to pop the balloon
Pyramidion: 1,700 - Four shots to pop the balloon
Junker: 2,000 - Four shots to pop the balloon
Galleon: 2,400 -  Five shots to pop the balloon

[Imagine]

I would think that changing balloon HP would take a dump on the viability of shotgun weapons.

[Belcard]

I would think that changing balloon HP would take a dump on the viability of shotgun weapons.

Suggested fix

Barking Dog: Increase clip count from 5 to 6 to provide a total of 2,227.2 balloon-specific damage
(192 x 1.8 = 345.6) + (128 x 0.2 = 25.6) = 371.2 x 6 = 2,227.2

Hellhound: Increase clip count from 2 to 4 to provide a total of 2,624 balloon-specific damage
(340 x 1.8 = 612) + (220 x 0.2 = 44) = 656 x 4 = 2,624

[Ofiach]

That's kinda the whole issue, any changes to anything else will cause a cascade effect. When it would be so easy to bring the raw damage output from the LJ into line with every other gun in the game.

Making a Balloon specific repair tool might be a cool way to get around it. Now you're adding more crap for the engi to play with. Might have rebalance the shotguns anyway if you did that.

I personally like the idea of different balloon HP's rather than a set number.

Also Imagine these replies really are the exact thing I was talking about. Resistance without anything actually there to counter argue. Restructuring to fit what I mentioned before "I really like my 50 cal sniper that shoots as fast as I can pull the trigger and has ten rounds! don't change it it's fine" That's resistance without anything to back it up. Wanting a Poll, yes thats democracy and great but 90% of COD players wanted to keep that 50 cal sniper as it was because it was just oh so fun to instagib everything. And that's why COD sucks massively. Well it isn't the only reason that game sucks but that list would go on for pages.

@ Belcard I do like those changes, but the LJ would still be capable of dumping 1000 more damage on someones head from a mile away. Just pointing that out

[TehPao]

@ Belcard I do like those changes, but the LJ would still be capable of dumping 1000 more damage on someones head from a mile away. Just pointing that out

Plus, it isn't hard to snipe with an LJ.

[Belcard]

@ Belcard I do like those changes, but the LJ would still be capable of dumping 1000 more damage on someones head from a mile away. Just pointing that out

Plus, it isn't hard to snipe with an LJ.

But it's quite a bit harder to hit the target from that far away, and you're not guaranteed the hit unlike how the weapon is currently being used. Which is barely beyond arming range. Keeping a ship bouncing on the ground so both, if not all, the ship's Engineers are instantly put into damage control mode and the ship is, by any means, worthless.

[TehPao]

@ Belcard I do like those changes, but the LJ would still be capable of dumping 1000 more damage on someones head from a mile away. Just pointing that out

Plus, it isn't hard to snipe with an LJ.

But it's quite a bit harder to hit the target from that far away, and you're not guaranteed the hit unlike how the weapon is currently being used. Which is barely beyond arming range. Keeping a ship bouncing on the ground so both, if not all, the ship's Engineers are instantly put into damage control mode and the ship is, by any means, worthless.

With six shots and a reasonably decent reload speed, it doesn't matter if you miss a few. You'll get it eventually. And when you do... Oh man, the other team is screwed!

[Belcard]

@ Belcard I do like those changes, but the LJ would still be capable of dumping 1000 more damage on someones head from a mile away. Just pointing that out

Plus, it isn't hard to snipe with an LJ.

But it's quite a bit harder to hit the target from that far away, and you're not guaranteed the hit unlike how the weapon is currently being used. Which is barely beyond arming range. Keeping a ship bouncing on the ground so both, if not all, the ship's Engineers are instantly put into damage control mode and the ship is, by any means, worthless.

With six shots and a reasonably decent reload speed, it doesn't matter if you miss a few. You'll get it eventually. And when you do... Oh man, the other team is screwed!

But that's not the point. The point is it'd still be more difficult to hit the target due to the speed of the Lumberjack's shot. Sure, you could speed it up with Lesmok rounds, but that's beside the point I'm trying to make.

Target is farther away, takes longer for the shot to travel the distance, more difficult to predict for enemy ship's behavior. Hydrogen, Chute Vent, Moonshine, or Kerosene could cause the shot to miss just as easily as if the gunner's aim had been off.

But again, that's not the point.

The point is the Lumberjack being abused in closer-ranged fights to pop the opposing ship's balloon in 2-3 shots and keep it popped permanently, then proceeding to tear through both armor and permahull while the balloon is down and the target ship is barely moving at all.

Pre-buff the Lumberjack had a grand total of 2,200 damage versus balloons. Post-buff, as it stands, it has 3,300. It just needs to be brought back into line. They added two shots to the clip because people were complaining they couldn't kill balloons with it (Because they either sucked at aiming with it or needed a couple test shots to dial in the exact angle to fire at to hit the ship) without balancing the damage to match. If they simply reduced the flechette damage on the Lumberjack to 200, this entire mess would more than likely be resolved.

[Ofiach]

It truly is not hard to snipe with and just gets easier the closer someone gets. at 700m and closer you aren't missing a shot, unless you sneeze and fire a bad round.

and popping the balloon in 3 shots and keeping at popped at a 1.5k is just as easy as at 500m they guy ain't going anywhere but into the ground and you just perma-balloon lock him from forever away. I am not understanding your argument tactic at all here. That's really the biggest issue with the gun, you can miss half your shots and still balloon lock people.

Truly not understanding your point here Belcard.

[Moriarty]

and popping the balloon in 3 shots and keeping at popped at a 1.5k is just as easy as at 500m they guy ain't going anywhere but into the ground and you just perma-balloon lock him from forever away.

Personally I don't see the LJ being an issue.

But lets presume you have a point, by your reasoning the lumberfish would be all kinds of awesome, as they could constantly maneuver to the right distance and perma-lock ships into the ground while destroying all its stuff, because even a single balloon pop at 1.5k means game over* (yeah right).

However in reality no one's scared of the lumberfish because by itself a LJ rarely kills, in fact the LJ is only useful with good teamwork OR when used as part of the old  flak/jack/merc on a galleon.

So i have to ask are you, is it possible your actually complaining about teamwork or perhaps galleons? ... maybe teamwork and galleons?

*note, ships continue flying at speed when the balloon is popped which at any considerable distance means moving behind cover or other obfuscation OR(more likely) into the arming time. This is particularly true of a LJ on a galleon.

[Ofiach]

The lumberfish is an amazing ship and the only way the enemy ship is getting back up is if your teammate is off in a corner humping a wall and the guys teammate can save him.

But you are getting more into team tactics here and not the fact that the gun does a ridiculous amount of damage compared to every other gun in the game. The only other gun that even comes close is the heavy carronade but that has such a short range as to make it almost worthless of mention.

If everyone is so resistant to lower some damage off a gun that hits for over double the damage of every other gun in the game per clip, then change the effectiveness of flechette against the armor.

[Moriarty]

The lumberfish is an amazing ship

Its right up there with the squid