Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: N-Sunderland on May 26, 2013, 12:30:19 am
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This is a pretty hot topic, and it'd be best if the discussion on this matter had its own thread. So here we go.
Continuing on from the guns balance thread, you may discuss whether the lumberjack is overpowered or not.
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3300 damage to the balloon
690 damage to armor
570 damage to the permahull
Tell me a gun that even comes close for Per clip damage to so many important systems.
Also these points are never really addressed there's just an it's fine leave it alone attitude.... there's really no counter argument going on. It's just people going nuh uhhhh its fine.
I can go into a forum for an FPS game and just resist the FACT that a single shot kill semi auto sniper rifle is boring and ruins the game. I don't even need to bring in facts like TTK or ease of use into it, I can just resist. That's exactly whats happening here. Resistance with nothing behind it.
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I don't suppose there's any way to make this into a poll?
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For the sake of being thorough, my original post: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,771.msg20161.html#msg20161 (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,771.msg20161.html#msg20161)
As an afterthought, if Muse really wants to leave the Lumberjack as it is, I thought of a third course of action they can take. Instead of tweaking or changing the Lumberjack from where it stands, perhaps doing an overhaul of balloon HP might be worth looking into.
Example
Squid: 900 - Two shots to pop the balloon
Spire: 1,200 - Three shots to pop the balloon
Goldfish: 1,400 - Three shots to pop the balloon
Pyramidion: 1,700 - Four shots to pop the balloon
Junker: 2,000 - Four shots to pop the balloon
Galleon: 2,400 - Five shots to pop the balloon
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I would think that changing balloon HP would take a dump on the viability of shotgun weapons.
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I would think that changing balloon HP would take a dump on the viability of shotgun weapons.
Suggested fix
Barking Dog: Increase clip count from 5 to 6 to provide a total of 2,227.2 balloon-specific damage
(192 x 1.8 = 345.6) + (128 x 0.2 = 25.6) = 371.2 x 6 = 2,227.2
Hellhound: Increase clip count from 2 to 4 to provide a total of 2,624 balloon-specific damage
(340 x 1.8 = 612) + (220 x 0.2 = 44) = 656 x 4 = 2,624
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That's kinda the whole issue, any changes to anything else will cause a cascade effect. When it would be so easy to bring the raw damage output from the LJ into line with every other gun in the game.
Making a Balloon specific repair tool might be a cool way to get around it. Now you're adding more crap for the engi to play with. Might have rebalance the shotguns anyway if you did that.
I personally like the idea of different balloon HP's rather than a set number.
Also Imagine these replies really are the exact thing I was talking about. Resistance without anything actually there to counter argue. Restructuring to fit what I mentioned before "I really like my 50 cal sniper that shoots as fast as I can pull the trigger and has ten rounds! don't change it it's fine" That's resistance without anything to back it up. Wanting a Poll, yes thats democracy and great but 90% of COD players wanted to keep that 50 cal sniper as it was because it was just oh so fun to instagib everything. And that's why COD sucks massively. Well it isn't the only reason that game sucks but that list would go on for pages.
@ Belcard I do like those changes, but the LJ would still be capable of dumping 1000 more damage on someones head from a mile away. Just pointing that out
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@ Belcard I do like those changes, but the LJ would still be capable of dumping 1000 more damage on someones head from a mile away. Just pointing that out
Plus, it isn't hard to snipe with an LJ.
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@ Belcard I do like those changes, but the LJ would still be capable of dumping 1000 more damage on someones head from a mile away. Just pointing that out
Plus, it isn't hard to snipe with an LJ.
But it's quite a bit harder to hit the target from that far away, and you're not guaranteed the hit unlike how the weapon is currently being used. Which is barely beyond arming range. Keeping a ship bouncing on the ground so both, if not all, the ship's Engineers are instantly put into damage control mode and the ship is, by any means, worthless.
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@ Belcard I do like those changes, but the LJ would still be capable of dumping 1000 more damage on someones head from a mile away. Just pointing that out
Plus, it isn't hard to snipe with an LJ.
But it's quite a bit harder to hit the target from that far away, and you're not guaranteed the hit unlike how the weapon is currently being used. Which is barely beyond arming range. Keeping a ship bouncing on the ground so both, if not all, the ship's Engineers are instantly put into damage control mode and the ship is, by any means, worthless.
With six shots and a reasonably decent reload speed, it doesn't matter if you miss a few. You'll get it eventually. And when you do... Oh man, the other team is screwed!
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@ Belcard I do like those changes, but the LJ would still be capable of dumping 1000 more damage on someones head from a mile away. Just pointing that out
Plus, it isn't hard to snipe with an LJ.
But it's quite a bit harder to hit the target from that far away, and you're not guaranteed the hit unlike how the weapon is currently being used. Which is barely beyond arming range. Keeping a ship bouncing on the ground so both, if not all, the ship's Engineers are instantly put into damage control mode and the ship is, by any means, worthless.
With six shots and a reasonably decent reload speed, it doesn't matter if you miss a few. You'll get it eventually. And when you do... Oh man, the other team is screwed!
But that's not the point. The point is it'd still be more difficult to hit the target due to the speed of the Lumberjack's shot. Sure, you could speed it up with Lesmok rounds, but that's beside the point I'm trying to make.
Target is farther away, takes longer for the shot to travel the distance, more difficult to predict for enemy ship's behavior. Hydrogen, Chute Vent, Moonshine, or Kerosene could cause the shot to miss just as easily as if the gunner's aim had been off.
But again, that's not the point.
The point is the Lumberjack being abused in closer-ranged fights to pop the opposing ship's balloon in 2-3 shots and keep it popped permanently, then proceeding to tear through both armor and permahull while the balloon is down and the target ship is barely moving at all.
Pre-buff the Lumberjack had a grand total of 2,200 damage versus balloons. Post-buff, as it stands, it has 3,300. It just needs to be brought back into line. They added two shots to the clip because people were complaining they couldn't kill balloons with it (Because they either sucked at aiming with it or needed a couple test shots to dial in the exact angle to fire at to hit the ship) without balancing the damage to match. If they simply reduced the flechette damage on the Lumberjack to 200, this entire mess would more than likely be resolved.
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It truly is not hard to snipe with and just gets easier the closer someone gets. at 700m and closer you aren't missing a shot, unless you sneeze and fire a bad round.
and popping the balloon in 3 shots and keeping at popped at a 1.5k is just as easy as at 500m they guy ain't going anywhere but into the ground and you just perma-balloon lock him from forever away. I am not understanding your argument tactic at all here. That's really the biggest issue with the gun, you can miss half your shots and still balloon lock people.
Truly not understanding your point here Belcard.
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and popping the balloon in 3 shots and keeping at popped at a 1.5k is just as easy as at 500m they guy ain't going anywhere but into the ground and you just perma-balloon lock him from forever away.
Personally I don't see the LJ being an issue.
But lets presume you have a point, by your reasoning the lumberfish would be all kinds of awesome, as they could constantly maneuver to the right distance and perma-lock ships into the ground while destroying all its stuff, because even a single balloon pop at 1.5k means game over* (yeah right).
However in reality no one's scared of the lumberfish because by itself a LJ rarely kills, in fact the LJ is only useful with good teamwork OR when used as part of the old flak/jack/merc on a galleon.
So i have to ask are you, is it possible your actually complaining about teamwork or perhaps galleons? ... maybe teamwork and galleons?
*note, ships continue flying at speed when the balloon is popped which at any considerable distance means moving behind cover or other obfuscation OR(more likely) into the arming time. This is particularly true of a LJ on a galleon.
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The lumberfish is an amazing ship and the only way the enemy ship is getting back up is if your teammate is off in a corner humping a wall and the guys teammate can save him.
But you are getting more into team tactics here and not the fact that the gun does a ridiculous amount of damage compared to every other gun in the game. The only other gun that even comes close is the heavy carronade but that has such a short range as to make it almost worthless of mention.
If everyone is so resistant to lower some damage off a gun that hits for over double the damage of every other gun in the game per clip, then change the effectiveness of flechette against the armor.
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The lumberfish is an amazing ship
Its right up there with the squid
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Let's not forget the cascade effect changing the core mechanics of flechette damage brings for the carronades. The lumberjack certainly feels to deal excessive damage and once you've dialed in that sweet spot, they're typically handed a death sentence they can't recover from without outside influence.
I like the idea of bringing the damage back to where it was while keeping the long clip as stated earlier, it definitely feels like the right move given the crippling damage the lumberjack can sustain once the gunner learns their angle. I was aboard a relatively new player's vessel with his friends, afforded the opportunity to test my hand at this beast outside the practice room, it is absurdly powerful compared to every other weapon in the game, and if it's natural or not for me, seemed all too easy to fine tune into a monstrous killing machine. However, the further away they are they harder they are to LEAD due to the limited arc of the weapon and slow speed of the projectile.
I completely understand that skill needs rewarded, as many claim the skill ceiling of the weapon is the balancing factor, but rewarding someone while doing little more than causing tension and frustration on the other side due to feeling completely helpless is always a concern of mine regarding balance. Just my twopence on the topic.
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How can lumberjack be op? It does a crapload of damage but it's one of the hardest guns in the game to use. Are we really talking about an overpowered weapon here or do we just want to nerf skill?
An OP weapon was the buffed Artemis. Everyone used it. Average competent gunners could basically screw an entire ship. Almost everyone used them.
Odds are, if you're getting destroyed by the lumberjack they've just got a good gunner and you're not closing in, manoeuvring, or sniping parts well enough. No one complains that flack/gat is OP because everyone uses it to kill people effectively. Why should lumberjack get nerfed for being able to do it's job in skilled hands.
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the artemis could complete its job with half the clip and was deemed OP and nerfed the Lumberjack completes its job with half the clip and is considered skill.
Once again the artemis did its job and its job alone. The Lumber crushes the balloon and the hull armor. Two HUGE factors for a ship. Even at 2200 total damage in a clip instead of the current 3300 balloon locking is easy to do with a halfway sober gunner.
Also another point that has been said, NO other weapon by itself sends another ships engies into scurry mode like the lumberjack. You don't need to disable an enemies guns when you have the LJ his engies/gunners will be trying to save everything.
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Yeah but that's just numbers man. You can't attribute usability to numbers and the fact that it's not on every goldfish and galleon by default proves that it isn't as easy to use as you say it is. And why is everyone saying it's awesome at close range? It's useless once you get within that arming time.
I'm with awkm. When Lumberfish becomes meta I will start to believe it's op.
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3300 damage to the balloon
690 damage to armor
570 damage to the permahull
Tell me a gun that even comes close for Per clip damage to so many important systems.
Alright, first off math check. The LJ only does 408 permahull damage per full clip, the websites damage matrix is old and out of date.
Now onto other guns. Almost all guns are effective at two damage types especially heavy weapons and the LJ is no exception. It
Heavy Carronade
Balloon 1312
Component 880
This is only in 2 shots with the fastest heavy weapon reload in the game. On a pure dps level this gives it all the balloon armor and hull destruction the LJ has. In addition it also has the highest per minute component destruction in the game. It also two hits balloon letting it break the balloon every time it shoots.
Manticore
Components 1950
Permahull 880
To put this in perspective components usually have under 400 health as opposed to the 1200 balloons have giving it a devastatingamount of shatter. In addition it one shot kills two thirds of the ships in the game if their armor is down.
Gattling
Armor 1020
Component 1320
Although this is a light weapon it is incredibly powerful. It can one clip strip the armor of any ship in the game other than the galleon and is ultra effectiveness against components.
The point of this is not that the LJ sucks, but that like many other weapons in the game the Lumberjack is effective at doing it's job. But just because a gun is effectiven doesn't mean it's overpowered. The gun is meant to pop a balloon in one clip and it does just that.
It is very important to note that a popped balloon is not all that crippling due to the multitude of options available for captain and crew to deal with it. If you're out of range, simply dodge or move behind debris and recover. In range use drogue chute and just keep firing, near the ground move two engineers to the balloon, buff it and go right back to the ceiling.
Just because a gun works doesn't mean it needs a Nerf, we need ways to kill ships and the effective methods have never been fewer than they currently are, the last thing we need is to lose one more.
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we need ways to kill ships and the effective methods have never been fewer than they currently are, the last thing we need is to lose one more.
I miss the pre buff Artemis. :'(
I don't care what anyone says, they were deadly on my ships.
It'd be nice to see less gat/flack around.
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I'd like to take a moment to remind everyone that simply because something isn't prevalent in the meta doesn't mean it isn't overpowered. While difficulty of use is a factor in balance, it is only to a point, and thus even if something is extremely difficult to use it shouldn't be excessively more powerful than other choices.
And frankly, from my experience, the Lumberjack is far easier to hit with than the Heavy Flak, especially at range (where they see the most use). The projectile travels quickly enough, and you have enough rounds, not to mention the fact your target is the balloon; this makes it actually an easy weapon to hit with. Easier than the Typhon, and far easier than the Light Mortar.
I really don't like the Lumberjack as it stands, because it's such a binary weapon. The Heavy Flak's damage output is reduced by half in close range; the Lumberjack's damage output has the majority of its purpose removed just because you're firing at a certain range. However, this is important to introduce counterplay. This weapon does have a huge weakness. There is counterplay. And that's why I feel the LJ isn't particularly problematic right now.
Could it do with some slight adjustments? Sure, I wouldn't mind. But care has to be taken; I feel it needs to be able to deal damage to at least armor to be of any use. Otherwise, a Flak is simply superior.
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@ linen the arming time turns into an absolute joke with incendiary ammo. 110m is basically humping distance and at that range the slower projectile speed doesn't matter.
@ smollet awkm came out and said he updated the numbers so I'm trying to figure out why they're absolutely wrong? I did make a mistake on the permahull number good catch.
Also comparing a weapon with a max range of 450m to something that reaches out to 3k+(not saying I land many at 3k+) is comparing apples and oranges. But for the sake of argument we'll go with it. Still in the time it takes to fire off a full clip of well aimed lumbershots your talking Maybe 3 shots from the Heavy carronade, which is around
(3)340(180%)=1836
(3)220(20%) =132
Total damage there 1968 just to balloons so the LJ(3300) is still doing more damage starting at a range of at least triple the carronades range.
The manticore does great at crippling components and also crushing the permahull, but you aren't seeing the weapon take subsequent systems like the LJ can. The carronade does it somewhat but as stated above it's naturally gimped by close range only.
Ok onto the gatling, it's a great gun but you're gonna dump a clip and be about ready to dump another clip from the LJ by the time the gat finishes firing it's first clip. Also the gat isn't shredding armor and then barely losing any steam into the permahull. It loses almost all of it's damage potential once you get into permahull. I mean 2x60 and 1x60 so 180 damage total to perma hull if a full gat clip hits it. Also max range on a gat is 700 meters, it's not near as bad a comparison as the carronade but still an iffy one. Also A weapons specifically designed to shred armor only beating out a balloon weapon by 330 damage a clip is a little unsettling.
Look the lumber can just roll from one primary system(balloon) on into the next(armor) without any sort of break, every other gun has a natural damage break that needs to be compensated for by another weapon. Once a balloon goes down to a Lumberjack a gunner is just one shot popping that thing from there on in and watching the armor wreck happen. Since there is no penalty to the damage besides the natural multipliers the gunner can keep aiming at the biggest target on an enemy ship and cripple its armor as well as balloon.
Maybe the enemy engies catch a break and get two mallet hits on it before that next lumber shell comes in. What happens? Nope the balloon is still in one shot hell mode. A ship has to go into tank mode and not deal any DPS to survive a lumber barrage and hope his teammate can save his ass.
Once again I was trying to show how this gun in a vacuum is one of the only few that kills by itself. The carronade being the other. Everything else has a natural damage break that needs to be overcome by another weapon. Maybe the answer really is as simple as lowering flechette effectiveness against against armor.
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The Lumber Jack has a 7 second reload. This is massive and is the major balancing factor that is being left out. That's why a clip by clip comparison isn't fair. Taken by a damage per minute account, assuming you land all 6 shots of Lumber Jack (which is really assuming a lot) then it does just about the same damage as a heavy carronade minus the shatter damage, not to mention no competent gunner is going to miss with heavy carronade.
That being stated there is a very narrow range window where the LJ is effective using ammo with 6 shots (1-.35km) Any captain that sits in that range for more than one clip is terrible. Also being within the arming time of incindiary is not difficult at all. You may lose your balloon once but 7 seconds is more than enough time to get in arming time of a Galleon, destroy the lone gun on a goldfish or outright kill the Spire shooting you with it.
It's not just that you don't see many Lumberjacks in pub matches, you also don't see many in Cogs matches either. Good pilots and teams have many ways to counter them and frequently punish teams who try to bring them. They are effective but have far more counters than gat flak. Anyone can sit here and spout statistics.about how good the gun is on paper, and I'll agree with you, but when it comes to actual gameplay against skilled teams, you'll find the weapon to be very well balanced.
I know many players haven't been around as long as I have but the LJ has gotten to where it is now after a long and careful balancing process. I've seen it stronger and I've seen it weaker and I'm pretty sure that it's one of the few weapons that really are just right with balance.
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Squid is 750 on balloon if you go by Hydro kill count. Hydro kills the balloon in 10 secs on a squid. Muse has said it is still 1200 but they haven't confirmed if there is another factor involved because the numbers don't add up.
Jack is perfect imo. It relies more on gunner skill and pilot evasion.
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I'm pretty sure Hydro does more damage than is indicated.
Does it take longer to break other ship's balloon?
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Facts of why the Lumberjack seems overpowered, in the opinion of Letus.
1.) Practice -- People who practice with this gun tend to get really good at it, or so it seems.
2.) Predictability -- You are going to do either one of two things against a lumberjack....charge them, or stay away and try to merc them. Both are relatively simple to track. In Dunes, you don't really got much of a choice for cover...granted. And you sniping mercury ships aren't going to be moving around often....kinda just...sit there allowing the gunners of the Lumberjack to get their gauge....(thanks, btw.)
3.) Overuse of the Hwatcha -- You ain't going to hit them before they hit you...
4.) Too much reliabilty on the gungineer -- I'm sorry? Did I make your gatling gun guy camp your balloon while your other engineer is camping the hull? Maybe if your gunner would change guns he can easily gat, and keep that lumberjack, down....
6.) Missconception of the Min Range -- Come on, 110 Meters isn't that far........but that's why my ship has flare guns~
Ever seen the killing power of a merc + typhon spire? It's still insane. Oh wait...
nobody does these anymore.
yes I know 5 is gone, there was never a 5. All you knowledge of 5 is a lie
okay fine
5.) It takes a good LJ gunner to fight another LJ. Or a well coordinated team. Can't focus on two ships charging me as I can focus on two ships attacking my ally ship...let alone 3.....but hopefully our wingship is willing and able to help counter those close encounters...
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I'm going to throw out there that the disparity here might be that the Lumberjack is well-balanced for new gunners, but insanely deadly in the hands of experienced ones. Play with or against Charon or Kubitsuri on the Lumberjack and it really changes the dynamics of what the weapon is capable of.
I'd argue that the originally difficult technique of firing the weapon was used as a balancing factor. The baseline skill has improved for the weapon, and thus that balancing factor might be argued as not effective against well-trained gunners. The game stats aren't the only variable here--the skill level and composition of the community is changing, so the game must change to accomodate that.
Personally, I feel that a little balancing is needed to prevent very skilled Lumberjackers from being able to single-weapon kill so quickly against another target. The carronades pop balloons, but if you double up carronade, people don't die this fast, and it's much tougher to do that.
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That was what bugged me about Awkm's post. He basically said well people didn't have the skill to hit with the first shot so we added two more round since people needed 2 shots to find the ranges.
Ummmm what? A high skill high reward weapon is what this thing is touted as, and you just dumbed it down to let anyone use it?
Also baseline skill has gone up so much with the gun and with the advent of alot of new players and forum tips you can get really deadly with that gun really fast. Maybe before people didn't know about checking the map for ranges or what the ranges were just by landmarks. Guess what! They do now and the gun is sighted in by anyone whose actually practiced with it.
Sure a guys first game with no idea how it works might be rough. Someone who takes maybe 2-3 hours to figure the gun out becomes an instant deathdealer. I've also seen plenty of people pick the gun up for the first time and with the littlest of coaching destroy everything.
@ Letus that was a point I made in the guns balance thread, the only counter is perfect teamplay or just exchanging lumber shots. And I'm sorry but if the only real 1 on 1 counter to something is another of that same thing. It needs a look.
I could make another FPS reference here but then people would just focus on that to derail any other point made. So I'll stick to this, in any other game when a gun can only be countered by that same gun it gets changed.
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The only reason I even started flying a Lumberfish is to counter the millions of Gat/Flank ships out there rushing into brawling range. You nerf the LJ and I'm forced right back into the Gat/Flank to stay competitive and then it's just a race to see who's hull explodes faster. Exciting.
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That's sort of what I'm saying as well, LJ is one of the only things that works competitively outside of gat flak and it still takes way longer to kill with. If the gun was as overpowered for high skill play like everyone is suggesting, you would see all high level teams bringing at least two to matches and dominating anyone who didn't, this is simply not happening.
In the past pretty much all op weapons were rooted out by competitive play like when gents decimated with 8 heavy flaks, teams were butchering with 4 mercs or when one team took 7 Artemis' into a competitive match.
No one is arguing that the LJ sucks, it just is effective at it's role and there is a wide gap between effective and balanced and op.
Just because something is effective, doesn't mean it should be nerfed.
Edit- Fixed typo
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Played against a Lumberfish tonight while a little bit inebriated. I was volun-told to pilot a flakfish as a gunner when the pilot dropped while my two Japanese engineers (I speak just a little Japanese) were on the repairs/guns. We won. Ramming a jackfish destroys it. The enemy gunner was no pro, but it was far from unbeatable.
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Played against a Lumberfish tonight while a little bit inebriated. I was volun-told to pilot a flakfish as a gunner when the pilot dropped while my two Japanese engineers (I speak just a little Japanese) were on the repairs/guns. We won. Ramming a jackfish destroys it. The enemy gunner was no pro, but it was far from unbeatable.
There's a reason I keep chute vent on my fish...
Rather take a ram to the balloon when I see it coming, turn around, and kerosine away.That's sort of what I'm saying as well, LJ is one of the only things that works competitively outside of gat flak and it still takes way longer to kill with. If the gun was as overpowered for high skill play like everyone is suggesting, you would see all high level teams bringing at least two to matches and dominating anyone who didn't, this is simply not happening.
In the past pretty much all op weapons were rooted out by competitive play like when gents decimated with 8 heavy flaks, teams were butchering with 4 mercs or when one team took 7 Artemis' into a competitive match.
No one is arguing that the LJ sucks, it just is effective at it's role and there is a wide gap between effective and balanced and op.
Just because something is effective, doesn't mean it should be nerfed.
Edit- Fixed typo
A few of us kinda did this a long while ago. Three lumber fish is what we had.
Each of those had capable gunners and pilots, and we were against two hwatcha fish, and a gat-flak pyarmidion.
We lost, 3-7.
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So, I did this today: went into the sandbox -gasp- and tried to get numbers!
Remember, these are based off the health of the target dummies, and I compared three guns: Typhon Heavy Flak, Lumberjack Mortar, Hellhound Heavy Carronade. I used both regular shot and charged rounds respectfully
Typhon Heavy Flak
Shots to destroy Armour: 6 (5 charged)
Shots to kill ship (after armour is down:) 2 (1 charged)
Total to kill ship: 8 (6 charged)
Lumberjack Mortar
Shots to destroy armour: 7 (5 charged)
Shots to kill ship (after armour is down:) 8 (6 charged)
Total to kill ship: 15 (11 charged)
Hellhound HEavy Carronade
Shots to destroy armour: 5 (4 charged)
Shots to kill ship (after armour is down:) 6 (5 charged)
Total to kill ship: 11 (9 charged)
Time requires a stopwatch...that's why I made a video, but I need to make a better one..
It comes down to distance, fire rate, and reload speed
Reload speed alone would mean, for the expending of the clips
Typhoon Flak: 20.4 seconds (15.3 charged)
Lumberjack: 20 seconds (17.6 charged)
Hellhound: 23.1 seconds (18.9 charged)
The above time numbers do not include rate-of-fire, but the amount alone it takes to reload the clips alone.
Someone else can figure out those numbers...I'm mathing wrong.
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So wait hiding in a corner and sniping is more fun than actually piloting and manuevering and engaging in combat? Is that really what I'm hearing you say right now Rustedshut?
Yes charging face first into a gat flak is just a DPS race, this game is about alot more than just face charging.... I seriously will never understand the argument that it is fun to sit in a corner and camp over actually getting into combat and fighting.
Guess I have to use this line now "Sniping is the only way to win a game without ever playing it."
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Ofiach he was't talking about camping. Using a sniping weapon does not always equal camping. Don't attack the poor guy because he likes a different playstyle now and then.
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whenver i think of the lumberjack, i think of aqua and phoebe.
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Now wait I didn't attack him but he said it's just a DPS race with the gat/flak, and that is an absolute fallacy. Brawling with these airships is an artform, just because one gun combo is better for brawling than alot of others doesn't make it a DPS race. Also IMO the gat/mortar is a better brawler build it just takes a special flying style and a special gunner to use.
Now maybe it came off as an attack but I'm sorry this game is about flying not sitting still in a corner with long range sniper weapons that outshine everything.
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I'm going to throw out there that the disparity here might be that the Lumberjack is well-balanced for new gunners, but insanely deadly in the hands of experienced ones. Play with or against Charon or Kubitsuri on the Lumberjack and it really changes the dynamics of what the weapon is capable of.
I'd argue that the originally difficult technique of firing the weapon was used as a balancing factor. The baseline skill has improved for the weapon, and thus that balancing factor might be argued as not effective against well-trained gunners. The game stats aren't the only variable here--the skill level and composition of the community is changing, so the game must change to accomodate that.
Personally, I feel that a little balancing is needed to prevent very skilled Lumberjackers from being able to single-weapon kill so quickly against another target. The carronades pop balloons, but if you double up carronade, people don't die this fast, and it's much tougher to do that.
Srsly guys.
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I'm going to throw out there that the disparity here might be that the Lumberjack is well-balanced for new gunners, but insanely deadly in the hands of experienced ones. Play with or against Charon or Kubitsuri on the Lumberjack and it really changes the dynamics of what the weapon is capable of.
I'd argue that the originally difficult technique of firing the weapon was used as a balancing factor. The baseline skill has improved for the weapon, and thus that balancing factor might be argued as not effective against well-trained gunners. The game stats aren't the only variable here--the skill level and composition of the community is changing, so the game must change to accomodate that.
Personally, I feel that a little balancing is needed to prevent very skilled Lumberjackers from being able to single-weapon kill so quickly against another target. The carronades pop balloons, but if you double up carronade, people don't die this fast, and it's much tougher to do that.
Srsly guys.
the lumberjack is a good balanced gun, you are just wanting its power lowered because you die too much.
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I'm going to throw out there that the disparity here might be that the Lumberjack is well-balanced for new gunners, but insanely deadly in the hands of experienced ones. Play with or against Charon or Kubitsuri on the Lumberjack and it really changes the dynamics of what the weapon is capable of.
I'd argue that the originally difficult technique of firing the weapon was used as a balancing factor. The baseline skill has improved for the weapon, and thus that balancing factor might be argued as not effective against well-trained gunners. The game stats aren't the only variable here--the skill level and composition of the community is changing, so the game must change to accomodate that.
Personally, I feel that a little balancing is needed to prevent very skilled Lumberjackers from being able to single-weapon kill so quickly against another target. The carronades pop balloons, but if you double up carronade, people don't die this fast, and it's much tougher to do that.
Srsly guys.
the lumberjack is a good balanced gun, you are just wanting its power lowered because you die too much.
As far as I can tell, it's a small vocal minority clammoring for LJ changes, perhaps because of what you said.
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It is a minority of the forum dwellers but a majority of people who actually play the game. In just about every lobby you hear people say the LJ is fun to use but OP as shit. In alot of lobbies people wont even use it because they feel dirty.
Most people who play the game don't bother coming to the forums. They pretty much feel that forum talk never changes anything so why bother. It is different with muse because they at least listen but most players wont buy that. Even when you ask em to go put their opinion on the forum they would rather just hop lobbies when they have to deal with LJ snipers.
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It is a minority of the forum dwellers but a majority of people who actually play the game. In just about every lobby you hear people say the LJ is fun to use but OP as shit. In alot of lobbies people wont even use it because they feel dirty.
I think your sense of perception about it is skewed. Outside of the forums, I've seen LJs discussed in game region or lobby maybe... once? Twice?
Anyways, I don't think anyone is arguing that it's not a good weapon, but it seems like the general consensus is that it's not overpowered, both in the eyes of many players and the devs themselves.
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It is a minority of the forum dwellers but a majority of people who actually play the game. In just about every lobby you hear people say the LJ is fun to use but OP as shit. In alot of lobbies people wont even use it because they feel dirty.
Most people who play the game don't bother coming to the forums. They pretty much feel that forum talk never changes anything so why bother. It is different with muse because they at least listen but most players wont buy that. Even when you ask em to go put their opinion on the forum they would rather just hop lobbies when they have to deal with LJ snipers.
Uh, I don't use the LJ because it doesn't work well just on its own without coordination in pubs. I like the weapon, and think its good at what it does, but I prefer the heavy flak over the LJ in most circumstances. If they felt that strongly about the LJ being OP, I think they'd create an account and make sure their concern is noted on the forum.
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Unsure about the Lumberjack being missused and "dirty." Never heard that before.
If anything, the hwatcha is the most overpowered thing out there as MOST pubs that I've been in have at least one...on average of 3. Problem is that the hwatcha can destroy everything, while the Lumberjack destroys what...2 items? Three if you count a ship.
And if we're going to throw in the whole "sniping deal"
Then Nerf the Heavy Clip Hwatcha
The Mercury field gun
and the Artemis.
Oh and Heavy clip Gatling gun, and light Flack cannon
Heavy flack cannon with Lesmok annnd
...
Heavy clip Banshee
probably Lesmok light mortar.
In the right hands, those guns can be deadly, and can easily kill you, or highly maim you if you're going for that whole brawling charge-and-die method before you can deal any damage.
In fact..
Nerf all guns.
They blow you up apparently, and that seems to be bad to every pilot....
Seriously, I saw a bot easily hit a shot that I tend to use Lesmok on a Lumberjack with a regular round Light Mortar shot...
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I know this won't really change anyones opinions, but I've been watching a fair amount of the recent competitive matches and still haven't been seeing LJ's dominating the matches.
One of the hallmarks of an OP weapon for me is when the mere act of taking the weapon when your opponent doesn't nets you the win. Teams with LJs are both winning and losing to teams without them.
Just an observation.
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It is a minority of the forum dwellers but a majority of people who actually play the game. In just about every lobby you hear people say the LJ is fun to use but OP as shit. In alot of lobbies people wont even use it because they feel dirty.
Still going strong i see Ofiach, well everyone needs a hobby.
I've never heard complaints about the LJ unless it was a cogs team pub stomping with one, but then there's always going to be complaints in a stomping. No most matches i hear complaints about the manticore as OP and unskilled etc.
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This thread is now content-free!
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I think the reason why there has been some complaint that the LJ is OP is because it's one of the only guns that rewards gunners for their skill (if a goldfish is moving side-to-side its almost impossible to hit with an LJ except maybe for Yiski...). Most of the other guns are more beginner friendly and have some leeway in regards to aiming.
And if they're using Lesmok then close the distance and move around. The LJ has very slow yaw movement and lesmok slows it down even more.
Or call your ally. That's what they're there for.
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The Only real complaint I'll make is that I cannot tell the difference between a Lumberjack shot flying at me, and a Typhon Flak shot flying at me until I realize that I went to camp the wrong part of the ship....
those particle things are ...they look the same to me.
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I would just like to add I had to bring an entire ship to disable a single weapon.... if that aint OP......
Also near perfect team flying to beat a single weapon. I mean... come on.
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I would just like to add I had to bring an entire ship to disable a single weapon.... if that aint OP......
Also near perfect team flying to beat a single weapon. I mean... come on.
I had an imperfect team disable and keep my gun disabled...
it was when they decided to shoot at the other ship when they regretted not paying attention to my lumberjack.
Got really annoying because it got to the point where I had to time fix my lumberjack to get one shot out...just to have to rebuild, and wait again for the next incoming clip to pass, just to get another shot out before it goes down.
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I feel like "difficulty balancing" is a bad idea. Either it's op for good players or UP for new guys.
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I feel like "difficulty balancing" is a bad idea. Either it's op for good players or UP for new guys.
That can be said for just about every gun though...
a gat / flak pyramid can deal little damage if they don't know what their doing, while the same build can be overly strong if they do.
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This thread realy reminds me of the Sniper arguments in the TF2 Sniper SPUFs.
I'm not the most super l33t pro player, but shooters have always had long range (sniper) weapons and closer range weapons, both fullfilling their own role.
Saying that "camping on one spot and sniping" is bad or that "The only way to win a game without playing it is sniping" just goes to tell that you are just (and excuse me for the profanity) butthurt because something is killing you outside of your weapon's optimal range you just can't be arsed to compesate or change your playstyle a bit to counter something different.
In my honest opinion and without meaning any offense, whoever is complaining should just learn to adapt in different situations. I like the LJ just as much as I like other weapons and I have successfuly won against many LJ users just because I used my brain a bit.
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I slaughter most LJ users just like I slaughtered most 50 cal chaingun(sniper?) users in COD that doesn't mean the gun isn't overpowered.
@EchoLG
the range of the gun isn't even the problem, I don't think you even read any of this thread, a friend told you his summarized version and you just responded to what he told you. Bad idea.
The problem is the gun does well over double the damage per clip than any other gun in the game, and it's closest competition, the carronade, is only useful out to 450 meters.
Next time read what the issue is before commenting.
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I haven't seen the match, but it does sort of sound Ofiach like you're complaining that you had to alter the strategy you like to take because of the strategy your opponent took in order to win. This doesn't seem like an argument for anything being op.
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To go on the outshining of weapon A vs Weapon B
Flak and Light Mortar
Light Mortar surpasses Flak in dps and range (get lesmok and that thing and boy can you shoot far, and hit often now that it has no spread.) Get a good gunner on the light mortar, and you can easily destroy a gat-flak anything, if you are using Merc - Mortar that is....(you know what, I may just try that loadout...sounds complicatedly fun.)
Heavy Mortar is the same, higher DPS, but it lacks in killing power than the light mortar does.
I was recently in a game with some level 3 pilot who bitched about Spud Nick's Flak-Lumber Galleon, and the pilot was on our team. For about...five matches, we won, some were stomps, other were rather close (mostly because he got pissed and decided to go into the fray and effectively made the galleon useless doing so and wound up dead himself.) Because "this strategy is too different.
The other team, bless them for sticking around after getting womped on so much, learned a way to fight that Galleon: snipe out the lumberjack and charge. They even didn't fix the balloon much, giving them both gunners while they camped the hull. Though the idea of the wingship is to take them out when they do that...that pilot...could have had four easy kills...but he was one of those ramming pilots...so...we got them all when he should have.
Anyways, he was bitching about the stand still as they come tactic being boring--which can be true--but it got to the point that the people on the other team were vouching for my ship. All of them were new, but they were practically praising our aim, "this guy is hitting us with all his rounds" they said. Again, his ship had many opportunities to take out other ships, he just never did it.
The only person who complained about the extreme power of a lumberjack hull kill, and then heavy flak death blow, was a guy on the winning side...who then promptly left when a ship on the other team left and my ship then filled that.
I know this was a huge roundabout of most likely tl;dr, but the point is that Smollet's observation seems to be the most common complaint of the jack. It changes your comfort zone drastically...and people don't like that. If it was truely OP, everyone would be flying a lumberfish....
tl;dr -- I. Hate. SAUERKRAUT.
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I know this was a huge roundabout ....
tl;dr -- I. Hate. SAUERKRAUT.
I love you.
Personally, I feel that this gun isn't overpowered. An overpowered weapon is something like a 'noob tube' from Counter Strike... Point and click like crazy leads to 8 semi-auto sprays of pellets... two shots kill a player, so the other 6 are for good measure. The LJ needs more skill than that, and it rewards the player a whole lot for being able to do it. If it actually did damage to the hull, then there would be a problem. However... it only pops the balloon, which is a repairable thing. I hate it when I take fire from an experienced LJ gunner, but that's just how it is in my eyes... A difficult gun to use has a high reward for learning it.
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I slaughter most LJ users just like I slaughtered most 50 cal chaingun(sniper?) users in COD that doesn't mean the gun isn't overpowered.
@EchoLG
the range of the gun isn't even the problem, I don't think you even read any of this thread, a friend told you his summarized version and you just responded to what he told you. Bad idea.
The problem is the gun does well over double the damage per clip than any other gun in the game, and it's closest competition, the carronade, is only useful out to 450 meters.
Next time read what the issue is before commenting.
No friend told me anything and I have actually read every comment up to this page, so stop assuming things, please.
The LJ has a lot of downsides to compesate for its power, including the arming time, limited turn radius (a slow one as well) and of course being a medium gun, which means only usable on 3 ships currently, 1 of them being horribly slow and the other horribly fragile, the projectiles are quite slow and have a massive arc to their trajectory, sure a trained gunner can be pretty reliable, but as with anything not completely hitscan, any projectile weapon is unreliable at certain ranges, and since piloting equipment to mess with your enemy's aimming exists, I see absolutely no problem on why any ship would have problems against any of the current ships that can equip an LJ.
It's also a long range gun, it's supposed to do a lot of damage and in most games it's not unusual that the sniper deals well over double the damage of any other weapon in one clip. Again, TF2 sniper argument from SPUFs, it is the same thing, realy, people argue that snipers ruin their close range fights and are only countered by other snipers, hence should be nerfed.
All in all though, it's still Muse's game, so I'll leave weapon balance up to them. This is just my opinion and I'm certainly no expert on the field.
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I love you.
Personally, I feel that this gun isn't overpowered. An overpowered weapon is something like a 'noob tube' from Counter Strike... Point and click like crazy leads to 8 semi-auto sprays of pellets... two shots kill a player, so the other 6 are for good measure. The LJ needs more skill than that, and it rewards the player a whole lot for being able to do it. If it actually did damage to the hull, then there would be a problem. However... it only pops the balloon, which is a repairable thing. I hate it when I take fire from an experienced LJ gunner, but that's just how it is in my eyes... A difficult gun to use has a high reward for learning it.
Well back when the Lumberjack was new, and had no arming time, it was called the Noob Tube if you remember correctly. Just about every new player had that gun on their goldfish...granted I may be at fault for that way back when...
Then they "fixed" it, and that gun got barely used afterwards.
You ask me, there is almost no correct gunner build for the lumberjack, mainly because people forget that gunners have 4 shots instead of 3...me, I use a loadout where I don't need to use the regular shot--but I might change that as my build means Incendiary has to cover 110m to 220m....which is a long shot for that round.
But basically one can use lesmok for long, regular for mid-long, heavy or greased for mid-short, and incendiary for short...
same goes for the heavy flak...
why am I talking...
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I'm throwin all your LJ are broken into unprovable basket after the quter-finals, TYWM. LJ gets onto the same neigberhood as OP is only if it's mounted on a galeon with another long range weapon. Any galleon is countered with sufficient amount of mercs.
-- also the Blue spawn clearing in the canyons is too big for heavy flak (typhon's shells kept exploding short of the pollaris when we were at very long distange).
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I'm throwin all your LJ are broken into unprovable basket after the quter-finals, TYWM. LJ gets onto the same neigberhood as OP is only if it's mounted on a galeon with another long range weapon. Any galleon is countered with sufficient amount of mercs.
-- also the Blue spawn clearing in the canyons is too big for heavy flak (typhon's shells kept exploding short of the pollaris when we were at very long distange).
My only complaint is that it looks like that in this game in particular the mere presense of such a weapon slowed down the game so much I wanted to grab my hair and tear it off my head out of frustration.
Still not sure if its damage should be toned down, maybe if Flechette did less damage on the hull.. cause right now the LJ chews through it like nothing else it seems. I still believe it should pop a balloon in less than a clip though, then again if you nerf Flechette damage on the hull you are also nerfing the Carronades. It's a tough one.
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Still not sure if its damage should be toned down, maybe if Flechette did less damage on the hull.. cause right now the LJ chews through it like nothing else it seems. I still believe it should pop a balloon in less than a clip though, then again if you nerf Flechette damage on the hull you are also nerfing the Carronades. It's a tough one
Eh I shudder when people propose this, because it (flechette dmg vs hull armor) was already nerfed once fairly recently. I don't have much issue with lumber eating my hull armor too fast. It's only going to get your hull and balloon in any significant way so when taking barrages from it you put your engies there. That said, sitting in the line of sight of a lumber is a mistake. Be a moving target, or you better be disabling that gun.
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Eh I shudder when people propose this, because it (flechette dmg vs hull armor) was already nerfed once fairly recently. I don't have much issue with lumber eating my hull armor too fast. It's only going to get your hull and balloon in any significant way so when taking barrages from it you put your engies there. That said, sitting in the line of sight of a lumber is a mistake. Be a moving target, or you better be disabling that gun.
That is true, I'm also not best informed about changes on flechette, not being here myself when they were implemented, so I didn't know much of them.
Personaly I didn't have many issues with Lumbers while I played in normal matches, careful piloting avoided them all together while some times I messed up I got shot to the ground. Isn't this a bit on the extremes though? Avoid all together or simply die, dunno, I just felt like there could be a middle ground then again my only concern was about the tourney matches and how much they did slow down due to it, but I guess the weapon is mostly fine in normals.
I realy shouldn't discuss balance.. v .v
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The reason matches like that last so long, is people being scared to lose (my opinion).
Even when you're getting hit by a lumber and falling, you should be working to get out of its arc. Funny enough, its downward arc isn't great, so it can hinder itself that way to a point. Getting under the lumber is a good way to get away, though risky since if it pops your balloon, you're already low. Once you get close to him though, you force his movement. He has to move to get arcs and keep distance. So move him to your advantage, and there you have it.
And really, all heavy weapons have that extreme effect. Carronade does the same thing lumber does, just in your face. Hwacha can disable everything in one well placed barrage, and flak can insta-kill you if your armor is down.
And discussing balance is perfectly fine. Just know I offer my argument as just that, a different opinion, and not to shut you down ;p
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The reason matches like that last so long, is people being scared to lose (my opinion).
Even when you're getting hit by a lumber and falling, you should be working to get out of its arc. Funny enough, its downward arc isn't great, so it can hinder itself that way to a point. Getting under the lumber is a good way to get away, though risky since if it pops your balloon, you're already low. Once you get close to him though, you force his movement. He has to move to get arcs and keep distance. So move him to your advantage, and there you have it.
And really, all heavy weapons have that extreme effect. Carronade does the same thing lumber does, just in your face. Hwacha can disable everything in one well placed barrage, and flak can insta-kill you if your armor is down.
And discussing balance is perfectly fine. Just know I offer my argument as just that, a different opinion, and not to shut you down ;p
Oh no I wouldn't think of that, I realy appreciate it to be honest and you are indeed right about Heavy guns being extremes. As for the LJ, even on my Spire, I have noticed that if they get hit by it, they will go way down, making it kinda harder for your gunner to aim at them and even the Spire's enchanced vertical velocity sometimes isn't enough to keep a proper firing angle without bringing yourself near the ground as well.
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I'm throwin all your LJ are broken into unprovable basket after the quter-finals, TYWM. LJ gets onto the same neigberhood as OP is only if it's mounted on a galeon with another long range weapon. Any galleon is countered with sufficient amount of mercs.
-- also the Blue spawn clearing in the canyons is too big for heavy flak (typhon's shells kept exploding short of the pollaris when we were at very long distange).
Pre 1.2.1 patch, just faced a merc, flak, and lumber galleon with my Lumberfish. What did I do? Charged under them and got my lumberjack to point straight up with incendiary rounds in.
Granted, I can't get that 110m close range in with incendiary now with that now -35% speed...
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Looking in game it's actually -25%, so it's even worse.
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Looking in game it's actually -25%, so it's even worse.
Nah, it's -35%, did the sandbox research and everything (had to with my thing out there.) It aims roughly higher than the heatsink clip, and the heatsink clip is -30%....
or was..
If they changed that, it's not in the patchnotes.
The difference between incendiary and heatsink now is roughly...7m...
The only real "pro" I got from that is now I don't have to debate between changing burst rounds to heavy clip for the ranges between regular shot and incendiary....
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So... are the tooltips incorrect? I think heatsink says its something like -25-20%, although I'd have to double check that, and I'm pretty sure the tooltip for incendiary says -25%.
Thanks for checking it out, though!
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Has anyone encountered the lumberjack completely demolishing hull armor? The ingame description does not really explain this. Flachette (baloon dmg) and Shatter (Component dmg) No piercing, no explosion.
Yett it kills better than the twin carronade that says it has better stats on its shots. And 2 quick strong shots should be stronger than 6 not as quick or strong shots. Yet it isnt.
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It kills hull armour because flechette's modifier against armour is 0.35, and the lumber does 300 flechette. So that's 115 armour damage per shot once you add the shatter. By comparaison, the merc does 172.5 armour damage per shot, and the heavy carronade does 163.
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I'm guessing this guy just played against Morblitz. Normally the LJ doesn't devistate hull armor... unless you're playing against Morblitz and are between 300 and 2500 meters from his gun.
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Normally the LJ doesn't devistate hull armor... unless you're playing against Morblitz and are between 300 and 2500 meters from his gun.
Thanks for specifying. I was about to be worried we were talking about a large stretch of area.
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I'm guessing this guy just played against Morblitz. Normally the LJ doesn't devistate hull armor... unless you're playing against Morblitz and are between 300 and 2500 meters from his gun.
Can always use a Sunderland to annoy him with a Mercury though.
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I'm guessing this guy just played against Morblitz. Normally the LJ doesn't devistate hull armor... unless you're playing against Morblitz and are between 300 and 2500 meters from his gun.
Can always use a Sunderland to annoy him with a Mercury though.
Poor Morblitz, I was making him suffer XD
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I think Morblitz is gonna start a "What do you hate Sunderland for?" thread ;D
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I think Morblitz is gonna start a "What do you hate Sunderland for?" thread ;D
Bloody Mackems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackem).
On topic, I had a chance to play around with the Lumberjack for the first time recently. Got to say, it's incredibly fun to use.
I've done barely any piloting, however, so I can't possibly comment on how fun it is fly against. Not very, I'd imagine.
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I think Morblitz is gonna start a "What do you hate Sunderland for?" thread ;D
Bloody Mackems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackem).
On topic, I had a chance to play around with the Lumberjack for the first time recently. Got to say, it's incredibly fun to use.
I've done barely any piloting, however, so I can't possibly comment on how fun it is fly against. Not very, I'd imagine.
Pends on the gunner and pilot
For example, if the gunner is Morblitz, Phoebe, Kubi, Yiski, and someone else whose name escapes me......you're not going to have a good time....
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Wasn't it Letus Jr.? He was pretty good.
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Wasn't it Letus Jr.? He was pretty good.
No way a level 2 can be good with such a gun.
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Wasn't it Letus Jr.? He was pretty good.
No way a level 2 can be good with such a gun.
Wasn't there a third, can't seem to remember.
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Wasn't it Letus Jr.? He was pretty good.
No way a level 2 can be good with such a gun.
Wasn't there a third, can't seem to remember.
I did see a couple level 3's who claimed to have read and guide, and they were rather decent.
Oh, Metal Man is a good shot, too, so is Lehran.
RearAdmiralZill had some insane shots the other day in a Raid game I was spectating.
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Xemko is spectacularly good with a lumber.
Wasn't it Letus Jr.? He was pretty good.
No way a level 2 can be good with such a gun.
Wasn't there a third, can't seem to remember.
AnomaLetus?
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Xemko is spectacularly good with a lumber.
Wasn't it Letus Jr.? He was pretty good.
No way a level 2 can be good with such a gun.
Wasn't there a third, can't seem to remember.
AnomaLetus?
Never heard of them.
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Today was the first day I used an LJ outside of practise, me and my captain were both suprised and impressed at howI was able to hit most of the important ones. I even got one really good hit from across a very big distance on a spires balloon.
If anyone is wondering I'm L4 gunner. Seeing as their is a discussion about that over here
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I'm actually surprised with how easy the lumber is to shoot, considering that I've only used it about 10 times since its release (I don't gun much). Sure, I can't hit jack (heh...) at extreme long range until I've had a clip to judge the drop with, but even at fairly long range lesmok makes it pretty damn easy to hit with.
That being said, I don't think it's OP. There are some pretty simply counters, just like with any other gun.
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My concern right now is that sniping seems to be a bit too rewarding. The LJ by itself is not realy all-powerful, it's the fact that you can have one of these on a Galleon along with either a Manticore or a Typhon facing on the same ship along with a Mercury gun.
It slows down the game to depressing levels.
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Not if you do it right.
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My concern right now is that sniping seems to be a bit too rewarding. The LJ by itself is not realy all-powerful, it's the fact that you can have one of these on a Galleon along with either a Manticore or a Typhon facing on the same ship along with a Mercury gun.
It slows down the game to depressing levels.
This has been the case for a long time. The metagame has always favored long range weaponry. Maps tend to do the same, especially Battle on the Dunes. I haven't really noticed it myself lately, but I wouldn't be surprised if others encountered it.
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Well I know, I have noticed the slow down earlier many times, it just stroke me realy hard when I played a game in canyons and both teams decided to camp spawn and try to snipe until someone decided to charge.
I know it's not the case on all maps, but it's still a considerable slowdown for the game which makes it horribly boring, there are many guns and playstyles, this game can make em all equally viable with a little tweaking.
Though that might be me being butthurt cause carronades aren't one of the most efficient loadouts. Don't know.
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I played the dev app today, and sure enough something was changed on the lumber. It's gonna be interesting!
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Xemko is spectacularly good with a lumber.
Wasn't it Letus Jr.? He was pretty good.
No way a level 2 can be good with such a gun.
Wasn't there a third, can't seem to remember.
AnomaLetus?
Never heard of them.
Cletus Van Damme Member 2013-02-21
JackVegas Member 2013-02-21
Cletus Kasady Member 2013-02-21
Letus Member 2013-02-21
Cletus McIntyre Member 2013-03-24
Letus Jr. Member 2013-04-21
Letusik Member 2013-05-05
Cletus Member 2013-05-12
Ms. Letus Member 2013-05-20
Cletus Snarf Member 2013-05-20
AnomaLetus Member 2013-05-27
That's a list of a search for Letus. Ms. Letus is the one I like most.
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All right guys, I'd like to apologize for one thing.
When I first tried the dev app, I thought that something had been changed with the lumberjack. That was my mistake. There have been no changes to the stats of the gun itself. Sorry for the confusion.
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Sunderland, it's like you just want to watch the world burn and give all the mods more work trying to put the flames out.
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I knew it didn't change.....Now loch in it on the other hand..
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Greased is good too.
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There are no changes to the LJ. If there are any in the dev app, it is not intentional. The LJ will be the same as it is in the game now.
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All right guys, I'd like to apologize for one thing.
When I first tried the dev app, I thought that something had been changed with the lumberjack. That was my mistake. There have been no changes to the stats of the gun itself. Sorry for the confusion.
Your busting my ball.....oons!
Busting my balloons Sunderland!
Dun scare me like that ;~;