Lumberjack Discussion

[Chrinus]

Let's not forget the cascade effect changing the core mechanics of flechette damage brings for the carronades. The lumberjack certainly feels to deal excessive damage and once you've dialed in that sweet spot, they're typically handed a death sentence they can't recover from without outside influence.

I like the idea of bringing the damage back to where it was while keeping the long clip as stated earlier, it definitely feels like the right move given the crippling damage the lumberjack can sustain once the gunner learns their angle. I was aboard a relatively new player's vessel with his friends, afforded the opportunity to test my hand at this beast outside the practice room, it is absurdly powerful compared to every other weapon in the game, and if it's natural or not for me, seemed all too easy to fine tune into a monstrous killing machine. However, the further away they are they harder they are to LEAD due to the limited arc of the weapon and slow speed of the projectile.

I completely understand that skill needs rewarded, as many claim the skill ceiling of the weapon is the balancing factor, but rewarding someone while doing little more than causing tension and frustration on the other side due to feeling completely helpless is always a concern of mine regarding balance. Just my twopence on the topic.

[Linen]

How can lumberjack be op? It does a crapload of damage but it's one of the hardest guns in the game to use. Are we really talking about an overpowered weapon here or do we just want to nerf skill?

An OP weapon was the buffed Artemis. Everyone used it. Average competent gunners could basically screw an entire ship. Almost everyone used them.

Odds are, if you're getting destroyed by the lumberjack they've just got a good gunner and you're not closing in, manoeuvring, or sniping parts well enough. No one complains that flack/gat is OP because everyone uses it to kill people effectively. Why should lumberjack get nerfed for being able to do it's job in skilled hands.

[Ofiach]

the artemis could complete its job with half the clip and was deemed OP and nerfed the Lumberjack completes its job with half the clip and is considered skill.

Once again the artemis did its job and its job alone. The Lumber crushes the balloon and the hull armor. Two HUGE factors for a ship. Even at 2200 total damage in a clip instead of the current 3300 balloon locking is easy to do with a halfway sober gunner.

Also another point that has been said, NO other weapon by itself sends another ships engies into scurry mode like the lumberjack. You don't need to disable an enemies guns when you have the LJ his engies/gunners will be trying to save everything.

[Linen]

Yeah but that's just numbers man. You can't attribute usability to numbers and the fact that it's not on every goldfish and galleon by default proves that it isn't as easy to use as you say it is. And why is everyone saying it's awesome at close range? It's useless once you get within that arming time.

I'm with awkm. When Lumberfish becomes meta I will start to believe it's op.

[Captain Smollett]

3300 damage to the balloon
690 damage to armor
570 damage to the permahull

Tell me a gun that even comes close for Per clip damage to so many important systems.

Alright, first off math check. The LJ only does 408 permahull damage per full clip, the websites damage matrix is old and out of date.

Now onto other guns. Almost all guns are effective at two damage types especially heavy weapons and the LJ is no exception. It

Heavy Carronade
Balloon 1312
Component 880

This is only in 2 shots with the fastest heavy weapon reload in the game. On a pure dps level this gives it all the balloon armor and hull destruction the LJ has. In addition it also has the highest per minute component destruction in the game. It also two hits balloon letting it break the balloon every time it shoots. 

Manticore
Components 1950
Permahull 880

To put this in perspective components usually have under 400 health as opposed to the 1200 balloons have giving it a devastatingamount of shatter. In addition it one shot kills two thirds of the ships in the game if their armor is down.

Gattling
Armor 1020
Component 1320

Although this is a light weapon it is incredibly powerful. It can one clip strip the armor of any ship in the game other than the galleon and is ultra effectiveness against components.

The point of this is not that the LJ sucks, but that like many other weapons in the game the Lumberjack is effective at doing it's job. But just because a gun is effectiven doesn't mean it's overpowered. The gun is meant to pop a balloon in one clip and it does just that.

It is very important to note that a popped balloon is not all that crippling due to the multitude of options available for captain and crew to deal with it. If you're out of range, simply dodge or move behind debris and recover. In range use drogue chute and just keep firing, near the ground move two engineers to the balloon, buff it and go right back to the ceiling.

Just because a gun works doesn't mean it needs a Nerf, we need ways to kill ships and the effective methods have never been fewer than they currently are, the last thing we need is to lose one more.

[Linen]

we need ways to kill ships and the effective methods have never been fewer than they currently are, the last thing we need is to lose one more.

I miss the pre buff Artemis. 
I don't care what anyone says, they were deadly on my ships.

It'd be nice to see less gat/flack around.

[NikolaiLev]

I'd like to take a moment to remind everyone that simply because something isn't prevalent in the meta doesn't mean it isn't overpowered.  While difficulty of use is a factor in balance, it is only to a point, and thus even if something is extremely difficult to use it shouldn't be excessively more powerful than other choices.

And frankly, from my experience, the Lumberjack is far easier to hit with than the Heavy Flak, especially at range (where they see the most use).  The projectile travels quickly enough, and you have enough rounds, not to mention the fact your target is the balloon; this makes it actually an easy weapon to hit with.  Easier than the Typhon, and far easier than the Light Mortar.

I really don't like the Lumberjack as it stands, because it's such a binary weapon.  The Heavy Flak's damage output is reduced by half in close range; the Lumberjack's damage output has the majority of its purpose removed just because you're firing at a certain range.  However, this is important to introduce counterplay.  This weapon does have a huge weakness.  There is counterplay.  And that's why I feel the LJ isn't particularly problematic right now.

Could it do with some slight adjustments?  Sure, I wouldn't mind.  But care has to be taken; I feel it needs to be able to deal damage to at least armor to be of any use.  Otherwise, a Flak is simply superior.

[Ofiach]

@ linen the arming time turns into an absolute joke with incendiary ammo. 110m is basically humping distance and at that range the slower projectile speed doesn't matter.

@ smollet awkm came out and said he updated the numbers so I'm trying to figure out why they're absolutely wrong? I did make a mistake on the permahull number good catch.

Also comparing a weapon with a max range of 450m to something that reaches out to 3k+(not saying I land many at 3k+) is comparing apples and oranges.  But for the sake of argument we'll go with it. Still in the time it takes to fire off a full clip of well aimed lumbershots your talking Maybe 3 shots from the Heavy carronade, which is around
(3)340(180%)=1836
(3)220(20%)  =132
Total damage there 1968 just to balloons so the LJ(3300) is still doing more damage starting at a range of at least triple the carronades range.

The manticore does great at crippling components and also crushing the permahull, but you aren't seeing the weapon take subsequent systems like the LJ can. The carronade does it somewhat but as stated above it's naturally gimped by close range only.

Ok onto the gatling, it's a great gun but you're gonna dump a clip and be about ready to dump another clip from the LJ by the time the gat finishes firing it's first clip. Also the gat isn't shredding armor and then barely losing any steam into the permahull. It loses almost all of it's damage potential once you get into permahull. I mean 2x60 and 1x60 so 180 damage total to perma hull if a full gat clip hits it. Also max range on a gat is 700 meters, it's not near as bad a comparison as the carronade but still an iffy one. Also A weapons specifically designed to shred armor only beating out a balloon weapon by 330 damage a clip is a little unsettling.

Look the lumber can just roll from one primary system(balloon) on into the next(armor) without any sort of break, every other gun has a natural damage break that needs to be compensated for by another weapon. Once a balloon goes down to a Lumberjack a gunner is just one shot popping that thing from there on in and watching the armor wreck happen. Since there is no penalty to the damage besides the natural multipliers the gunner can keep aiming at the biggest target on an enemy ship and cripple its armor as well as balloon.

Maybe the enemy engies catch a break and get two mallet hits on it before that next lumber shell comes in. What happens? Nope the balloon is still in one shot hell mode. A ship has to go into tank mode and not deal any DPS to survive a lumber barrage and hope his teammate can save his ass.

Once again I was trying to show how this gun in a vacuum is one of the only few that kills by itself. The carronade being the other. Everything else has a natural damage break that needs to be overcome by another weapon. Maybe the answer really is as simple as lowering flechette effectiveness against against armor.

[Captain Smollett]

The Lumber Jack has a 7 second reload. This is massive and is the major balancing factor that is being left out. That's why a clip by clip comparison isn't fair.  Taken by a damage per minute account, assuming you land all 6 shots of Lumber Jack (which is really assuming a lot) then it does just about the same damage as a heavy carronade minus the shatter damage, not to mention no competent gunner is going to miss with heavy carronade.

That being stated there is a very narrow range window where the LJ is effective using ammo with 6 shots (1-.35km) Any captain that sits in that range for more than one clip is terrible. Also being within the arming time of incindiary is not difficult at all.  You may lose your balloon once but 7 seconds is more than enough time to get in arming time of a Galleon, destroy the lone gun on a goldfish or outright kill the Spire shooting you with it.

It's not just that you don't see many Lumberjacks in pub matches, you also don't see many in Cogs matches either. Good pilots and teams have many ways to counter them and frequently punish teams who try to bring them. They are effective but have far more counters than gat flak.  Anyone can sit here and spout statistics.about how good the gun is on paper, and I'll agree with you, but when it comes to actual gameplay against skilled teams, you'll find the weapon to be very well balanced. 

I know many players haven't been around as long as I have but the LJ has gotten to where it is now after a long and careful balancing process. I've seen it stronger and I've seen it weaker and I'm pretty sure that it's one of the few weapons that really are just right with balance.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

Squid is 750 on balloon if you go by Hydro kill count. Hydro kills the balloon in 10 secs on a squid. Muse has said it is still 1200 but they haven't confirmed if there is another factor involved because the numbers don't add up.

Jack is perfect imo. It relies more on gunner skill and pilot evasion.

[Captain Smollett]

I'm pretty sure Hydro does more damage than is indicated.

Does it take longer to break other ship's balloon?

[Letus]

Facts of why the Lumberjack seems overpowered, in the opinion of Letus.

1.)  Practice  -- People who practice with this gun tend to get really good at it, or so it seems.

2.)  Predictability  --  You are going to do either one of two things against a lumberjack....charge them, or stay away and try to merc them.  Both are relatively simple to track.  In Dunes, you don't really got much of a choice for cover...granted.  And you sniping mercury ships aren't going to be moving around often....kinda just...sit there allowing the gunners of the Lumberjack to get their gauge....(thanks, btw.)

3.)  Overuse of the Hwatcha -- You ain't going to hit them before they hit you...

4.)  Too much reliabilty on the gungineer -- I'm sorry?  Did I make your gatling gun guy camp your balloon while your other engineer is camping the hull?  Maybe if your gunner would change guns he can easily gat, and keep that lumberjack, down....

6.)  Missconception of the Min Range -- Come on, 110 Meters isn't that far........but that's why my ship has flare guns~



Ever seen the killing power of a merc + typhon spire?  It's still insane.  Oh wait...
nobody does these anymore.

yes I know 5 is gone, there was never a 5.  All you knowledge of 5 is a lie

okay fine

5.)  It takes a good LJ gunner to fight another LJ.  Or a well coordinated team.  Can't focus on two ships charging me as I can focus on two ships attacking my ally ship...let alone 3.....but hopefully our wingship is willing and able to help counter those close encounters...

[Machiavelliest]

I'm going to throw out there that the disparity here might be that the Lumberjack is well-balanced for new gunners, but insanely deadly in the hands of experienced ones.  Play with or against Charon or Kubitsuri on the Lumberjack and it really changes the dynamics of what the weapon is capable of.

I'd argue that the originally difficult technique of firing the weapon was used as a balancing factor.  The baseline skill has improved for the weapon, and thus that balancing factor might be argued as not effective against well-trained gunners.  The game stats aren't the only variable here--the skill level and composition of the community is changing, so the game must change to accomodate that.

Personally, I feel that a little balancing is needed to prevent very skilled Lumberjackers from being able to single-weapon kill so quickly against another target.  The carronades pop balloons, but if you double up carronade, people don't die this fast, and it's much tougher to do that.

[Ofiach]

That was what bugged me about Awkm's post. He basically said well people didn't have the skill to hit with the first shot so we added two more round since people needed 2 shots to find the ranges.

Ummmm what? A high skill high reward weapon is what this thing is touted as, and you just dumbed it down to let anyone use it?

Also baseline skill has gone up so much with the gun and with the advent of alot of new players and forum tips you can get really deadly with that gun really fast. Maybe before people didn't know about checking the map for ranges or what the ranges were just by landmarks. Guess what! They do now and the gun is sighted in by anyone whose actually practiced with it.

Sure a guys first game with no idea how it works might be rough. Someone who takes maybe 2-3 hours to figure the gun out becomes an instant deathdealer. I've also seen plenty of people pick the gun up for the first time and with the littlest of coaching destroy everything.

@ Letus that was a point I made in the guns balance thread, the only counter is perfect teamplay or just exchanging lumber shots. And I'm sorry but if the only real 1 on 1 counter to something is another of that same thing. It needs a look.

I could make another FPS reference here but then people would just focus on that to derail any other point made. So I'll stick to this, in any other game when a gun can only be countered by that same gun it gets changed.

[RustedShut]

The only reason I even started flying a Lumberfish is to counter the millions of Gat/Flank ships out there rushing into brawling range.  You nerf the LJ and I'm forced right back into the Gat/Flank to stay competitive and then it's just a race to see who's hull explodes faster.  Exciting.