Author Topic: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.  (Read 7152 times)

Offline Mysterious Medic

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2015, 11:37:20 am »
Thing is you have to damage your own ship to deal with weapons all the time. Moonshine should also be used against mines, which have even more push back, but you probably haven't had to deal with a good mine gunner in the game yet. Also, it's not "constant moonshine" because that's not how you use shine, you use it in bursts of what your engineers can handle. Hydrogen is often used to dodge mortars or other weapons, too. All heavy weapons should be a pain to deal with, it's just that the Minotaur is quite easy to shoot and newer player friendly right now, which I'm not sure is the best thing considering the only heavy weapons that are very easy to shoot are only at close range.

Going off Crafeksterty's comment, the reason pyra side guns were not used wasn't because they weren't necessary, it's because it opens up your entire broadside and makes your ship a much huger target, along with usually positioning your crew away from the balloon unless the main engineer is shooting. If anything, with the nerf to hull health, using the side guns should be even less of an option. The devs designed the pyra so that it would be a big target if it wasn't using it's front guns and being the "vanguard" ship. You can't be sneaky when you accelerate like a flying bowl of pudding. If I start playing the game a lot I probably just won't fly pyra anymore, because honestly it just sounds boring and stressful to fly now.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2015, 11:47:56 am »
The Minotaur reload appears to be about 10 seconds and it takes about a second after every shot to shoot the next. You can use this to time your moonshine. It might torture your engines while you practice getting it down, but it's also greatly reducing the effectiveness of their important heavy gun.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2015, 12:05:08 pm »
I will just explain why Moonshine is not a valid counter to the minotaur:

"casual" engineers, level 20 and below, who struggle to deal with kerosene. Basically the majority of public match engineers.

You touch moonshine and very often they will tell you in voice not to use it "any more" (after a 1second burst) because "Good pilots shouldn't need to burn engines"

Have a crew that can handle it?
Great welcome to the minority that makes up the forum users, which is about20-30% of the player base.

Telling people Moonshine only applies to people with crews and friends who can handle its use.

Better counters to consider would be mercury field gun, Artemis (with burst round) and other disable weapons, depending on what type of engagement you want to do.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2015, 12:17:08 pm »
Why rely engineers to tank the damage of the engines. how much are you using it?

As a pilot even he needs to consider the damage he is using. So all you want is the effect of not turning, not the speed in this case. It damages your engines but your guns are in line. Whats better?
If you use it well, you wont damage the engines significantly.

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2015, 12:19:58 pm »
A common mistake I've seen is that when players get shot and are spun around they start running. This leads to death against any type of weapon.

I agree it's too easy to shoot, but I'm starting to feel that besides the very low skill requirement and the down arc it's a pretty fair weapon. It does feel incredibly OP to newer players, and I think the game would be better without it, but I like it.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2015, 12:33:22 pm »
Why rely engineers to tank the damage of the engines. how much are you using it?

As a pilot even he needs to consider the damage he is using. So all you want is the effect of not turning, not the speed in this case. It damages your engines but your guns are in line. Whats better?
If you use it well, you wont damage the engines significantly.


I guess I will say it more clearly...

I have used moonshine for a single second burst and had many pub match engineers complain about it.

A single solitary 1 second burst.

Moonshine is not a valid counter to this weapon in public matches where the engineers capabilities (or their awareness of their own capabilities) can be questioned.

This is why I suggest other counters beyond everyone preaching "Moonshine will win!"
There are other counters that can be used.

Moonshine is good yes, but only if you have an engineer who is not going to shot his pants when the engines get damaged outside of combat.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2015, 12:42:47 pm »
That is a very small problem. Why then cant mercuries be a counter? Because pubs dont know how to shot?

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2015, 12:51:43 pm »
As the expert on Moonshine, I will say Crafeksterty is correct. I stopped using kero over a year ago. It is not needed. Moonshine is always better. Short distance or long distance. Using it properly is easy to repair. Why would you use moonshine for a full second unless you are going for speed?

Offline David Dire

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2015, 12:54:16 pm »
A common mistake I've seen is that when players get shot and are spun around they start running. This leads to death against any type of weapon.

I agree it's too easy to shoot, but I'm starting to feel that besides the very low skill requirement and the down arc it's a pretty fair weapon. It does feel incredibly OP to newer players, and I think the game would be better without it, but I like it.

I'm not saying it's viciously OP, but I do think it needs a bit of a nerf in some ways.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2015, 01:14:31 pm »
That is a very small problem. Why then cant mercuries be a counter? Because pubs dont know how to shot?

At no point did I say Mercs cannot be counters, in fact I said they can be counters, so do not put words into my mouth, sir.

I will just explain why Moonshine is not a valid counter to the minotaur:

"casual" engineers, level 20 and below, who struggle to deal with kerosene. Basically the majority of public match engineers.

You touch moonshine and very often they will tell you in voice not to use it "any more" (after a 1second burst) because "Good pilots shouldn't need to burn engines"

Have a crew that can handle it?
Great welcome to the minority that makes up the forum users, which is about20-30% of the player base.

Telling people Moonshine only applies to people with crews and friends who can handle its use.

Better counters to consider would be mercury field gun, Artemis (with burst round) and other disable weapons, depending on what type of engagement you want to do.


As the expert on Moonshine, I will say Crafeksterty is correct. I stopped using kero over a year ago. It is not needed. Moonshine is always better. Short distance or long distance. Using it properly is easy to repair. Why would you use moonshine for a full second unless you are going for speed?

So literal on the use of the word second, but my over all point is not regarding my personal use of piloting tools, my point is there are other counters which are more friendly to the less experienced players that can be suggested to them, rather than this one pilot tool (which lower levels are not likely to use correctly)

Offline BlackenedPies

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2015, 01:25:20 pm »
The Minotaur is clearly not noob friendly. Idk if any balance could fix that besides reducing the bump effect.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2015, 01:51:28 pm »

Going off Crafeksterty's comment, the reason pyra side guns were not used wasn't because they weren't necessary, it's because it opens up your entire broadside and makes your ship a much huger target, along with usually positioning your crew away from the balloon unless the main engineer is shooting. If anything, with the nerf to hull health, using the side guns should be even less of an option. The devs designed the pyra so that it would be a big target if it wasn't using it's front guns and being the "vanguard" ship. You can't be sneaky when you accelerate like a flying bowl of pudding. If I start playing the game a lot I probably just won't fly pyra anymore, because honestly it just sounds boring and stressful to fly now.

Depends on how you are using the side guns. I was thinking Front disable/Long range. Side Short range killer.
Disable + ram, kill later.

The thing is no pilots found it stressfull to play pyra, but now suddenly they cant relax. Oh no they have to actualy reconsider!!. Not gonna say it harshly but yeah.

Quote
my point is there are other counters which are more friendly to the less experienced players that can be suggested to them, rather than this one pilot tool (which lower levels are not likely to use correctly)

WHAT?!?! So your argument that the monshine is not a good counter like before is that engineers cant repair. Thats it. What?
You can make this same argument for hades, oh its a hard to pick up gun. Why do they have to use lesmok to be able to shoot this?

Like i said, it shouldnt be a problem even for pub. If an engineer that has free hands and needs to repair, he should be able to take it on. If he cant repair the engines like if it is taking other type of damage, then it is a very nooby player.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2015, 02:06:32 pm »
Look dude, you're getting way too stressed out just because I am not bowing to your suggestion.
You're also ignoring my over-all point, it is not solely around the engineers capabilities, but as you said the pilots abilities too.

There are many suicidal spires because the pilot "forgot to turn off hydrogen" and the engineer couldn't keep up the balloon repairs, my point is that there are other counters beyond the only one you're pushing.
Ones which can be more friendly to newer players.

Oh and before you get your knickers in a twist that I'm still not bowing down to your suggestion, pay attention to one clear fact:
I already said your suggestion would work with a good crew.

So calm down dude.

Offline Imagine

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2015, 02:42:01 pm »
Look I'm all for having newer people to the game having fun, but at some point you have to stop thinking about how to dumb the game down even more just in the name of making it easier for new players. It gets rid of any sort of skill cap, and will lead to core people to the game getting bored. Part of the learning process is, well, learning the process.

Offline Kamoba

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Re: Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2015, 02:53:46 pm »
Look I'm all for having newer people to the game having fun, but at some point you have to stop thinking about how to dumb the game down even more just in the name of making it easier for new players. It gets rid of any sort of skill cap, and will lead to core people to the game getting bored. Part of the learning process is, well, learning the process.

I didn't say to dumb down the game, just offer the newer players other ideas to counter this new weapon. :)