Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Dr Brobotnik on February 25, 2015, 05:20:40 pm
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Hello. This is a thread intended to provide feedback about the recent patch. Everything posted herein are my personal opinions and does not reflect what the developers should do - merely what I think they should do, and I shall argue for what I think they should do.
Post-patch, Pyramidion now has less armor than the Squid. A huge vessel made for close combat and ramming, as I understand it. How then, does it make sense to nerf it to the point where it may well go down before getting close enough to pull it's weight? And why does a small ship made for hit and run have more armor? It makes no sense.
As for the minotaur, the problems, as I see them, are the following.
It forces enemies to focus a specific ship, just to be able to reliably land shots, ignoring allies in the proccess - that alone is a terrible advantage. It also gives an almost sadistic potential for "bouncing" an enemy ship between two ships, thereby sealing it's fate completly.
Now, I have been discussing this a lot with my GoI pals, and several suggestions were made about the Pyramidon. One idea was to reduce it's turning rate instead of it's armor, or it's lifting power, basically a slower ship. However, the real problem, as I see it, was always the two guns at the front of the ship, which resulted in a gatling-mortar/flak combo that was really hard to defend oneself against. Basically, the gatling gun ate up the armor too fast and the mortars/flaks blew the hull up faster than it could be repaired. But since switching the gunports might require a redesign of the ship at large, an easier solution would probably have been to make the Pyramidion slower, or to keep the armor a hundred or two above Squid.
As for the minotaur cannon, I think that it should have been made into a stopping weapon, not a moving weapon. Making a ship stop for a few seconds on hit would have made it effective against close combat weapons and ships, yet demanding positioning. It could also have worked as a balancing pin vs the Pyramidion. Possibly that could result in a meta game where the minotaur cannon is a must, but that seems to be the case as things currently are anyways.
Those are my thoughts about the patch. Feel free to post your own ideas.
Thanks a lot - Dr Brobotnik.
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Post-patch, Pyramidion now has less armor than the Squid. A huge vessel made for close combat and ramming, as I understand it. How then, does it make sense to nerf it to the point where it may well go down before getting close enough to pull it's weight? And why does a small ship made for hit and run have more armor? It makes no sense.
So much this. I think both squid buff and pyramidion nerf should be restricted to speed, acceleration and turning.
Regarding Minotaur - it's extremely annoying for the one on recieving end and it slows down the game more often than not. It's silly that I can rotate enemy ship by 90 or more degrees with one clip. I have an impression that the ship buffs/nerfs and new gun weren't playtested enough.
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Post-patch, Pyramidion now has less armor than the Squid. A huge vessel made for close combat and ramming, as I understand it. How then, does it make sense to nerf it to the point where it may well go down before getting close enough to pull it's weight? And why does a small ship made for hit and run have more armor? It makes no sense.
... an easier solution would probably have been to make the Pyramidion slower, or to keep the armor a hundred or two above Squid.
I think you're confusing Permahull and Hull Armour. They pyra has always had (and still has) more armour than the Squid. Over 400 more points of armour to be precise. If you mean "permahull" then, the Squid has always had more perma than the Pyra. The squid is supposed to have a lot of perma and a small amount of armour. It's one of it's traits, along with speed
As for the minotaur, the problems, as I see them, are the following.
It forces enemies to focus a specific ship, just to be able to reliably land shots, ignoring allies in the proccess - that alone is a terrible advantage. It also gives an almost sadistic potential for "bouncing" an enemy ship between two ships, thereby sealing it's fate completly.
As for the minotaur cannon, I think that it should have been made into a stopping weapon, not a moving weapon. Making a ship stop for a few seconds on hit would have made it effective against close combat weapons and ships, yet demanding positioning. It could also have worked as a balancing pin vs the Pyramidion. Possibly that could result in a meta game where the minotaur cannon is a must, but that seems to be the case as things currently are anyways.
The Minotaur is no more frightening or powerful than any other heavy weapon. I'm more frightened of a hwacha or an H Carro than I am of this new gun. I don't know why you want the game to circle around the new gun and have it become a "must", but, in it's current state, I think it does it's job fine. There are plenty of "balancing pins" against the pyra as well. It's been countered for as long as it's been around. Disable builds (hwachas, Artemis, etc.) have been very strong against the Gat/Mortar combo before this last update.
I like the theory crafting. It's really cool to see new players think about the game in terms like you are, but I think you're going about a lot of your criticisms the wrong way
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It's a lot easier to evade a Hwatcha than a Minotaur, however.
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Post-patch, Pyramidion now has less armor than the Squid. A huge vessel made for close combat and ramming, as I understand it. How then, does it make sense to nerf it to the point where it may well go down before getting close enough to pull it's weight? And why does a small ship made for hit and run have more armor? It makes no sense.
... an easier solution would probably have been to make the Pyramidion slower, or to keep the armor a hundred or two above Squid.
I think you're confusing Permahull and Hull Armour. They pyra has always had (and still has) more armour than the Squid. Over 400 more points of armour to be precise. If you mean "permahull" then, the Squid has always had more perma than the Pyra. The squid is supposed to have a lot of perma and a small amount of armour. It's one of it's traits, along with speed
It is however my experience that the nerf is a bit too heavy.
As for the minotaur, the problems, as I see them, are the following.
It forces enemies to focus a specific ship, just to be able to reliably land shots, ignoring allies in the proccess - that alone is a terrible advantage. It also gives an almost sadistic potential for "bouncing" an enemy ship between two ships, thereby sealing it's fate completly.
As for the minotaur cannon, I think that it should have been made into a stopping weapon, not a moving weapon. Making a ship stop for a few seconds on hit would have made it effective against close combat weapons and ships, yet demanding positioning. It could also have worked as a balancing pin vs the Pyramidion. Possibly that could result in a meta game where the minotaur cannon is a must, but that seems to be the case as things currently are anyways.
The Minotaur is no more frightening or powerful than any other heavy weapon. I'm more frightened of a hwacha or an H Carro than I am of this new gun. I don't know why you want the game to circle around the new gun and have it become a "must", but, in it's current state, I think it does it's job fine. There are plenty of "balancing pins" against the pyra as well. It's been countered for as long as it's been around. Disable builds (hwachas, Artemis, etc.) have been very strong against the Gat/Mortar combo before this last update.
However, hwachas can be disabled pretty quickly with two guns.
I like the theory crafting. It's really cool to see new players think about the game in terms like you are, but I think you're going about a lot of your criticisms the wrong way
I disagree. Nerfing the durability of a ship made to go into the thick of battle makes no sense. There are other avenues you could have taken.
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However, hwachas can be disabled pretty quickly with two guns.
The Minotaur can also be disabled. And with one gun. Why need two?
And I don't disagree the nerf might have been a bit much, but it's not going to ruin the ship. After playing around with it a lot today, they Pyra is still a threat
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Mercs people, MERCS!
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Start using Side guns on Pyra for close ranges and front for long diasbling ranges!
Actualy start using all your sides on a pyra, start getting sneaky, you cant just charge from far away and expect to still be alive.
Or fight someone head on with more armor or guns and expect to win it before ramming.
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A few things are being overlooked. Yes, the minotaur can be destroyed - but if yur guns are unpositioned, it can't, and therein lies the problem, as I see it. You're basically being denied the chance to disable the gun, and the ship, if you can't take the minotaur cannon out fast.
As it were, disabling a ship without actually disabling it, simply becaause it can spin your heavy ordinance out of range.
And once more, it's a weapon that forces the ship carrying it to be prioritized - bait ships is nothing new, but now it's almost a must to target a specific ship, possibly making your allies die because you can't spare time to help them.
I still believe it should have been a stopping weapon, not a movement one.
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A few things are being overlooked. Yes, the minotaur can be destroyed - but if yur guns are unpositioned, it can't, and therein lies the problem, as I see it. You're basically being denied the chance to disable the gun, and the ship, if you can't take the minotaur cannon out fast.
As it were, disabling a ship without actually disabling it, simply becaause it can spin your heavy ordinance out of range.
And once more, it's a weapon that forces the ship carrying it to be prioritized - bait ships is nothing new, but now it's almost a must to target a specific ship, possibly making your allies die because you can't spare time to help them.
I still believe it should have been a stopping weapon, not a movement one.
Artemis, Huge arcs, hard to knock out of arc.
Yes the mino may be a bit un balanced, but during the testing, all testers were showing a lot of feedback regarding Stamina and new ship effects to be able to effectively test capture points and minotaur, but we saw it get turned from an ineffective weapon to a slightly over-powered weapon. :)
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People, be creative! Try to counter, try to think, what can be done to surpass these weakesses?
I found out that pyras are definetly not worth taking if "you like to charge head on from a predictable and easy to see area with no reaction torwards the enemy until you get close."
The pyras health is essentialy Junker now, weres the junker has a harder to hit hull + more armor. But in pyras defence versus this balance is hes got 2 guns and is faster.
Try and use all the gun slots, when was the last time you considered the side guns as a viable solution to your tactics? Before most and almost all did not because it wouldnt be necesary, now youl have to consider having weapons that give you some safety. And i dont mean trifecta, actual 2 stances of combat, instead of just 1.
And as for the minotaur, i discovered that bringing Moonshine makes the minotaur Useless if you know how to use it against oncoming shots.
That means that next level gunners need to be unpredictable with their minotaur shots, pilots need to bring moonshine and use it correctly.
Its like chem versus flamethrower. But in this case it is greater, Moonshine renders a minotaur really useless if used right. The enemy who shoots monshine does next to no real damage + is using up a man slot manning the gun which is a slot wasted because a pilot chose to waste those slots by sacrificing one pilot tool. If anything i havent seen close range greased Minotaur just yett. But I now see that it is a more flexible and difficult to fight gun if it is a closer gun. Still havent seen one but i have to.
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I can't believe people complain about the Pyra having an auto-bifecta when the Mobula, Junker, Spire, and Galleon can have automatic TRIfectas. The Pyra was also designed to be the Vanguard- Soak up damage and dish out almost as much. That would necessitate it being heavy and slow. So buff either armor or hull, and nerf accel a mite more. Slow to start, unstoppable once it starts, but you have to keep momentum. I do believe that the Pyra should be more tactical than 'RUSH MEAN ENEMY SHIP FROM ACROSS MAP AND KILL DEM, DURRHURR', but it should be able to actually do something like "OK guys, there's the enemy. We sneak up behind cover, and then once we're close enough, we burn 'Shine and ram them. Fire the Gat/Art while we're at it, and then the main engi hops in the mortar/banshee/explosive weapon on the side." ATM, it gets shredded to pieces.
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I do not see moonshine as a valid counter. Forcing you to damage your own ship just to deal with a single weapon feels all sorts of wrong. Chem spray doesn't damage the ship - now try to go constant moonshine while also combating flamethrower along with the minotaur, my oh my... This is exactly why I would have liked the minotaur to be a stopping weapon - counter vs close range, most of all the dreaded flamethrower. It would have added a spoke on the meta wheel, so to speak, which is never a bad thing. You can chem spray, or if you are fine with giving up a heavy gunport, go with minotaur. It could have been great. But instead we get a gun that can disable most of a ships firepower for a relatively low cost.
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Junker doesn't have an automatic trifecta. It takes some skill to position your ship correctly for that, and it works only with high-arc guns.
Mobula have it's gun slots spreaded widely so it also doesn't have trifecta on all guns (I learned it the hard way, trying to have tripple hades build).
Pyramidion has bifectas on everything except double merc.
I'm afraid that all we'll get from minotaur will be new meta with ships focusing on disabling power. Glorious artemis will be welcomed back to the strict meta.
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Dr bobotnik, try. Just a simple touch of monshine is enough to render any turning movement. So when you get hit by a minotaur, simply hit moonshine for the small second youl get hit again and then you dont have to keep moonshine on for that long.
The time it takes to fire heavy clip Minotaur is quite long so youl have enough time to turn back and hit moonshine just before another shot. And its only 3 shots if he has heavy clip.
Like you cant just not be try something. And really it renders a person managing the gun and the gun slot on the enemy ship very obsolete if you can use moonshine versus minotaur well.
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Thing is you have to damage your own ship to deal with weapons all the time. Moonshine should also be used against mines, which have even more push back, but you probably haven't had to deal with a good mine gunner in the game yet. Also, it's not "constant moonshine" because that's not how you use shine, you use it in bursts of what your engineers can handle. Hydrogen is often used to dodge mortars or other weapons, too. All heavy weapons should be a pain to deal with, it's just that the Minotaur is quite easy to shoot and newer player friendly right now, which I'm not sure is the best thing considering the only heavy weapons that are very easy to shoot are only at close range.
Going off Crafeksterty's comment, the reason pyra side guns were not used wasn't because they weren't necessary, it's because it opens up your entire broadside and makes your ship a much huger target, along with usually positioning your crew away from the balloon unless the main engineer is shooting. If anything, with the nerf to hull health, using the side guns should be even less of an option. The devs designed the pyra so that it would be a big target if it wasn't using it's front guns and being the "vanguard" ship. You can't be sneaky when you accelerate like a flying bowl of pudding. If I start playing the game a lot I probably just won't fly pyra anymore, because honestly it just sounds boring and stressful to fly now.
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The Minotaur reload appears to be about 10 seconds and it takes about a second after every shot to shoot the next. You can use this to time your moonshine. It might torture your engines while you practice getting it down, but it's also greatly reducing the effectiveness of their important heavy gun.
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I will just explain why Moonshine is not a valid counter to the minotaur:
"casual" engineers, level 20 and below, who struggle to deal with kerosene. Basically the majority of public match engineers.
You touch moonshine and very often they will tell you in voice not to use it "any more" (after a 1second burst) because "Good pilots shouldn't need to burn engines"
Have a crew that can handle it?
Great welcome to the minority that makes up the forum users, which is about20-30% of the player base.
Telling people Moonshine only applies to people with crews and friends who can handle its use.
Better counters to consider would be mercury field gun, Artemis (with burst round) and other disable weapons, depending on what type of engagement you want to do.
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Why rely engineers to tank the damage of the engines. how much are you using it?
As a pilot even he needs to consider the damage he is using. So all you want is the effect of not turning, not the speed in this case. It damages your engines but your guns are in line. Whats better?
If you use it well, you wont damage the engines significantly.
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A common mistake I've seen is that when players get shot and are spun around they start running. This leads to death against any type of weapon.
I agree it's too easy to shoot, but I'm starting to feel that besides the very low skill requirement and the down arc it's a pretty fair weapon. It does feel incredibly OP to newer players, and I think the game would be better without it, but I like it.
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Why rely engineers to tank the damage of the engines. how much are you using it?
As a pilot even he needs to consider the damage he is using. So all you want is the effect of not turning, not the speed in this case. It damages your engines but your guns are in line. Whats better?
If you use it well, you wont damage the engines significantly.
I guess I will say it more clearly...
I have used moonshine for a single second burst and had many pub match engineers complain about it.
A single solitary 1 second burst.
Moonshine is not a valid counter to this weapon in public matches where the engineers capabilities (or their awareness of their own capabilities) can be questioned.
This is why I suggest other counters beyond everyone preaching "Moonshine will win!"
There are other counters that can be used.
Moonshine is good yes, but only if you have an engineer who is not going to shot his pants when the engines get damaged outside of combat.
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That is a very small problem. Why then cant mercuries be a counter? Because pubs dont know how to shot?
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As the expert on Moonshine, I will say Crafeksterty is correct. I stopped using kero over a year ago. It is not needed. Moonshine is always better. Short distance or long distance. Using it properly is easy to repair. Why would you use moonshine for a full second unless you are going for speed?
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A common mistake I've seen is that when players get shot and are spun around they start running. This leads to death against any type of weapon.
I agree it's too easy to shoot, but I'm starting to feel that besides the very low skill requirement and the down arc it's a pretty fair weapon. It does feel incredibly OP to newer players, and I think the game would be better without it, but I like it.
I'm not saying it's viciously OP, but I do think it needs a bit of a nerf in some ways.
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That is a very small problem. Why then cant mercuries be a counter? Because pubs dont know how to shot?
At no point did I say Mercs cannot be counters, in fact I said they can be counters, so do not put words into my mouth, sir.
I will just explain why Moonshine is not a valid counter to the minotaur:
"casual" engineers, level 20 and below, who struggle to deal with kerosene. Basically the majority of public match engineers.
You touch moonshine and very often they will tell you in voice not to use it "any more" (after a 1second burst) because "Good pilots shouldn't need to burn engines"
Have a crew that can handle it?
Great welcome to the minority that makes up the forum users, which is about20-30% of the player base.
Telling people Moonshine only applies to people with crews and friends who can handle its use.
Better counters to consider would be mercury field gun, Artemis (with burst round) and other disable weapons, depending on what type of engagement you want to do.
As the expert on Moonshine, I will say Crafeksterty is correct. I stopped using kero over a year ago. It is not needed. Moonshine is always better. Short distance or long distance. Using it properly is easy to repair. Why would you use moonshine for a full second unless you are going for speed?
So literal on the use of the word second, but my over all point is not regarding my personal use of piloting tools, my point is there are other counters which are more friendly to the less experienced players that can be suggested to them, rather than this one pilot tool (which lower levels are not likely to use correctly)
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The Minotaur is clearly not noob friendly. Idk if any balance could fix that besides reducing the bump effect.
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Going off Crafeksterty's comment, the reason pyra side guns were not used wasn't because they weren't necessary, it's because it opens up your entire broadside and makes your ship a much huger target, along with usually positioning your crew away from the balloon unless the main engineer is shooting. If anything, with the nerf to hull health, using the side guns should be even less of an option. The devs designed the pyra so that it would be a big target if it wasn't using it's front guns and being the "vanguard" ship. You can't be sneaky when you accelerate like a flying bowl of pudding. If I start playing the game a lot I probably just won't fly pyra anymore, because honestly it just sounds boring and stressful to fly now.
Depends on how you are using the side guns. I was thinking Front disable/Long range. Side Short range killer.
Disable + ram, kill later.
The thing is no pilots found it stressfull to play pyra, but now suddenly they cant relax. Oh no they have to actualy reconsider!!. Not gonna say it harshly but yeah.
my point is there are other counters which are more friendly to the less experienced players that can be suggested to them, rather than this one pilot tool (which lower levels are not likely to use correctly)
WHAT?!?! So your argument that the monshine is not a good counter like before is that engineers cant repair. Thats it. What?
You can make this same argument for hades, oh its a hard to pick up gun. Why do they have to use lesmok to be able to shoot this?
Like i said, it shouldnt be a problem even for pub. If an engineer that has free hands and needs to repair, he should be able to take it on. If he cant repair the engines like if it is taking other type of damage, then it is a very nooby player.
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Look dude, you're getting way too stressed out just because I am not bowing to your suggestion.
You're also ignoring my over-all point, it is not solely around the engineers capabilities, but as you said the pilots abilities too.
There are many suicidal spires because the pilot "forgot to turn off hydrogen" and the engineer couldn't keep up the balloon repairs, my point is that there are other counters beyond the only one you're pushing.
Ones which can be more friendly to newer players.
Oh and before you get your knickers in a twist that I'm still not bowing down to your suggestion, pay attention to one clear fact:
I already said your suggestion would work with a good crew.
So calm down dude.
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Look I'm all for having newer people to the game having fun, but at some point you have to stop thinking about how to dumb the game down even more just in the name of making it easier for new players. It gets rid of any sort of skill cap, and will lead to core people to the game getting bored. Part of the learning process is, well, learning the process.
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Look I'm all for having newer people to the game having fun, but at some point you have to stop thinking about how to dumb the game down even more just in the name of making it easier for new players. It gets rid of any sort of skill cap, and will lead to core people to the game getting bored. Part of the learning process is, well, learning the process.
I didn't say to dumb down the game, just offer the newer players other ideas to counter this new weapon. :)
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Dr bobotnik, try. Just a simple touch of monshine is enough to render any turning movement. So when you get hit by a minotaur, simply hit moonshine for the small second youl get hit again and then you dont have to keep moonshine on for that long.
The time it takes to fire heavy clip Minotaur is quite long so youl have enough time to turn back and hit moonshine just before another shot. And its only 3 shots if he has heavy clip.
Like you cant just not be try something. And really it renders a person managing the gun and the gun slot on the enemy ship very obsolete if you can use moonshine versus minotaur well.
That is not the point. My problem is how much you MUST do to cope with one gun. You have to: damage your engines, reduce your abilities to target another ship due to the reduced turning rate, focus a very spcific ship, and bring moonshine - when many other items of the same loadout slot exists. It simply seems like too many musts for one weapon. Another ship on the enemy team may deck itself out specifically to deal with you, fully aware of that they won't be targetted by you in return. Basically, by forcing you into a specific setup with one weapon, other enemies can exploit you.
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I get your point, but that's basically how every gun works
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Junker doesn't have an automatic trifecta. It takes some skill to position your ship correctly for that, and it works only with high-arc guns.
Mobula have it's gun slots spreaded widely so it also doesn't have trifecta on all guns (I learned it the hard way, trying to have tripple hades build).
Pyramidion has bifectas on everything except double merc.
I'm afraid that all we'll get from minotaur will be new meta with ships focusing on disabling power. Glorious artemis will be welcomed back to the strict meta.
I did say CAN, you know. And it's far from hard to get trifecta on Mob. Also, I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere (Crafeksterty, I think) that if they're far enough away and you position yourself right you can get Hades trifecta.
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You can get a "fake trifecta", with a 0 degree overlap if you have Hades top, and on the two inner wing. However, if you put two Hades on one wing, the center Hades gives you a 25 degree trifecta.
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What Logicalia said.
I mean Chemspray can have almost the same description versus flamers.
There is more components to take care of and more players (2 atleast) that take part in chemspraying just to make a LIGHT gun useless.
What we do against minotaur now, is the same as other weapons, just radically different.
Stay lower than the enemy ship if his guns are mercuries. Which can have tons of disadvantagous variables.
Take chemspray on 2 engineers, make them do chemspray cycles every 15 seconds or before firing, which has disadvantagous variables there too.
Stay higher versus Artemis
Dont hit mines, or go straight into a ship laying mines. (lol most basic one)
Dont get rammed (Impact bumpers)
Constant ground pound (Impact bumpers + Drogue chute)
I mean, people asked for a stabilizer pilot tool before, and if it existed it would make more sense to stabilise your ship versus minotaur. But for now we just have Moonshine.
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I agree pyra nerf is to much.. They die so fast now it defeats the purpose of the ship..
But I do agree with Muse it should help lower pyra use count (which is what they really wanted to do with the nerf - they want to mix up the meta now), so I am for the nerf for awhile.. So we can maybe see some more other ships (more squid be nice).. I say that and yet I still ended up on a pyra most of the time.. :P
I also agree Minotaur seems to push a bit to much when on a junker.... when there's 2 on you you literally never have an ark and just slowly die .. - not really "fun" gameplay.. (1 Doesn't feel as bad).. Issue though depends how competent the other team is at focusing you.. When they are it feels really op when not it doesn't seem as bad..
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I agree pyra nerf is to much.. They die so fast now it defeats the purpose of the ship..
The moment I saw the patch notes, I was like: "Nope not rebuilding Pyra armour anymore"
But I do agree with Muse it should help lower pyra use count (which is what they really wanted to do with the nerf - they want to mix up the meta now), so I am for the nerf for awhile.. So we can maybe see some more other ships (more squid be nice).. I say that and yet I still ended up on a pyra most of the time.. :P
They don't seem as prevalent in competitive (If you want to ba an e sport you need to balance for competitive players like it's done in SC2). With possible excpetion of novice matches I've seen pretty good representation of all ships except squids (prior to this patch -I've been pretty sick, so I haven't played much yet)
I also agree Minotaur seems to push a bit to much when on a junker.... when there's 2 on you you literally never have an ark and just slowly die .. - not really "fun" gameplay.. (1 Doesn't feel as bad).. Issue though depends how competent the other team is at focusing you.. When they are it feels really op when not it doesn't seem as bad..
I've tried it in a 1v1 Practice match Goldfish vs Goldfish -I've had wrong tools (kero, hydro and the parachute): the the enemy goldfich could ifninitely juggle me and reverse my direction - to a point where my engines have had barely any effect.