Pyramidion and minotaur cannon - feedback.

[Dr Brobotnik]

Hello. This is a thread intended to provide feedback about the recent patch. Everything posted herein are my personal opinions and does not reflect what the developers should do - merely what I think they should do, and I shall argue for what I think they should do.

Post-patch, Pyramidion now has less armor than the Squid. A huge vessel made for close combat and ramming, as I understand it. How then, does it make sense to nerf it to the point where it may well go down before getting close enough to pull it's weight? And why does a small ship made for hit and run have more armor? It makes no sense.

As for the minotaur, the problems, as I see them, are the following.
It forces enemies to focus a specific ship, just to be able to reliably land shots, ignoring allies in the proccess - that alone is a terrible advantage. It also gives an almost sadistic potential for "bouncing" an enemy ship between two ships, thereby sealing it's fate completly.

Now, I have been discussing this a lot with my GoI pals, and several suggestions were made about the Pyramidon. One idea was to reduce it's turning rate instead of it's armor, or it's lifting power, basically a slower ship. However, the real problem, as I see it, was always the two guns at the front of the ship, which resulted in a gatling-mortar/flak combo that was really hard to defend oneself against. Basically, the gatling gun ate up the armor too fast and the mortars/flaks blew the hull up faster than it could be repaired. But since switching the gunports might require a redesign of the ship at large, an easier solution would probably have been to make the Pyramidion slower, or to keep the armor a hundred or two above Squid.

As for the minotaur cannon, I think that it should have been made into a stopping weapon, not a moving weapon. Making a ship stop for a few seconds on hit would have made it effective against close combat weapons and ships, yet demanding positioning. It could also have worked as a balancing pin vs the Pyramidion. Possibly that could result in a meta game where the minotaur cannon is a must, but that seems to be the case as things currently are anyways.

Those are my thoughts about the patch. Feel free to post your own ideas.

Thanks a lot - Dr Brobotnik.

[Hoja Lateralus]

Post-patch, Pyramidion now has less armor than the Squid. A huge vessel made for close combat and ramming, as I understand it. How then, does it make sense to nerf it to the point where it may well go down before getting close enough to pull it's weight? And why does a small ship made for hit and run have more armor? It makes no sense.

So much this. I think both squid buff and pyramidion nerf should be restricted to speed, acceleration and turning.

Regarding Minotaur - it's extremely annoying for the one on recieving end and it slows down the game more often than not. It's silly that I can rotate enemy ship by 90 or more degrees with one clip. I have an impression that the ship buffs/nerfs and new gun weren't playtested enough.

[DJ Logicalia]

Post-patch, Pyramidion now has less armor than the Squid. A huge vessel made for close combat and ramming, as I understand it. How then, does it make sense to nerf it to the point where it may well go down before getting close enough to pull it's weight? And why does a small ship made for hit and run have more armor? It makes no sense.

... an easier solution would probably have been to make the Pyramidion slower, or to keep the armor a hundred or two above Squid.

I think you're confusing Permahull and Hull Armour. They pyra has always had (and still has) more armour than the Squid. Over 400 more points of armour to be precise. If you mean "permahull" then, the Squid has always had more perma than the Pyra. The squid is supposed to have a lot of perma and a small amount of armour. It's one of it's traits, along with speed

As for the minotaur, the problems, as I see them, are the following.
It forces enemies to focus a specific ship, just to be able to reliably land shots, ignoring allies in the proccess - that alone is a terrible advantage. It also gives an almost sadistic potential for "bouncing" an enemy ship between two ships, thereby sealing it's fate completly.

As for the minotaur cannon, I think that it should have been made into a stopping weapon, not a moving weapon. Making a ship stop for a few seconds on hit would have made it effective against close combat weapons and ships, yet demanding positioning. It could also have worked as a balancing pin vs the Pyramidion. Possibly that could result in a meta game where the minotaur cannon is a must, but that seems to be the case as things currently are anyways.

The Minotaur is no more frightening or powerful than any other heavy weapon. I'm more frightened of a hwacha or an H Carro than I am of this new gun. I don't know why you want the game to circle around the new gun and have it become a "must", but, in it's current state, I think it does it's job fine. There are plenty of "balancing pins" against the pyra as well. It's been countered for as long as it's been around. Disable builds (hwachas, Artemis, etc.) have been very strong against the Gat/Mortar combo before this last update.

I like the theory crafting. It's really cool to see new players think about the game in terms like you are, but I think you're going about a lot of your criticisms the wrong way 

[DrTentacles]

It's a lot easier to evade a Hwatcha than a Minotaur, however.

[Dr Brobotnik]

Post-patch, Pyramidion now has less armor than the Squid. A huge vessel made for close combat and ramming, as I understand it. How then, does it make sense to nerf it to the point where it may well go down before getting close enough to pull it's weight? And why does a small ship made for hit and run have more armor? It makes no sense.

... an easier solution would probably have been to make the Pyramidion slower, or to keep the armor a hundred or two above Squid.

I think you're confusing Permahull and Hull Armour. They pyra has always had (and still has) more armour than the Squid. Over 400 more points of armour to be precise. If you mean "permahull" then, the Squid has always had more perma than the Pyra. The squid is supposed to have a lot of perma and a small amount of armour. It's one of it's traits, along with speed

It is however my experience that the nerf is a bit too heavy.

As for the minotaur, the problems, as I see them, are the following.
It forces enemies to focus a specific ship, just to be able to reliably land shots, ignoring allies in the proccess - that alone is a terrible advantage. It also gives an almost sadistic potential for "bouncing" an enemy ship between two ships, thereby sealing it's fate completly.

As for the minotaur cannon, I think that it should have been made into a stopping weapon, not a moving weapon. Making a ship stop for a few seconds on hit would have made it effective against close combat weapons and ships, yet demanding positioning. It could also have worked as a balancing pin vs the Pyramidion. Possibly that could result in a meta game where the minotaur cannon is a must, but that seems to be the case as things currently are anyways.

The Minotaur is no more frightening or powerful than any other heavy weapon. I'm more frightened of a hwacha or an H Carro than I am of this new gun. I don't know why you want the game to circle around the new gun and have it become a "must", but, in it's current state, I think it does it's job fine. There are plenty of "balancing pins" against the pyra as well. It's been countered for as long as it's been around. Disable builds (hwachas, Artemis, etc.) have been very strong against the Gat/Mortar combo before this last update.

However, hwachas can be disabled pretty quickly with two guns.

I like the theory crafting. It's really cool to see new players think about the game in terms like you are, but I think you're going about a lot of your criticisms the wrong way

I disagree. Nerfing the durability of a ship made to go into the thick of battle makes no sense. There are other avenues you could have taken.

[DJ Logicalia]

However, hwachas can be disabled pretty quickly with two guns.

The Minotaur can also be disabled. And with one gun. Why need two?

And I don't disagree the nerf might have been a bit much, but it's not going to ruin the ship. After playing around with it a lot today, they Pyra is still a threat

[Byron Cavendish]

Mercs people, MERCS!

[Crafeksterty]

Start using Side guns on Pyra for close ranges and front for long diasbling ranges!

Actualy start using all your sides on a pyra, start getting sneaky, you cant just charge from far away and expect to still be alive.
Or fight someone head on with more armor or guns and expect to win it before ramming.

[Dr Brobotnik]

A few things are being overlooked. Yes, the minotaur can be destroyed - but if yur guns are unpositioned, it can't, and therein lies the problem, as I see it. You're basically being denied the chance to disable the gun, and the ship, if you can't take the minotaur cannon out fast.
As it were, disabling a ship without actually disabling it, simply becaause it can spin your heavy ordinance out of range.
And once more, it's a weapon that forces the ship carrying it to be prioritized - bait ships is nothing new, but now it's almost a must to target a specific ship, possibly making your allies die because you can't spare time to help them.

I still believe it should have been a stopping weapon, not a movement one.

[Kamoba]

A few things are being overlooked. Yes, the minotaur can be destroyed - but if yur guns are unpositioned, it can't, and therein lies the problem, as I see it. You're basically being denied the chance to disable the gun, and the ship, if you can't take the minotaur cannon out fast.
As it were, disabling a ship without actually disabling it, simply becaause it can spin your heavy ordinance out of range.
And once more, it's a weapon that forces the ship carrying it to be prioritized - bait ships is nothing new, but now it's almost a must to target a specific ship, possibly making your allies die because you can't spare time to help them.

I still believe it should have been a stopping weapon, not a movement one.

Artemis, Huge arcs, hard to knock out of arc.

Yes the mino may be a bit un balanced, but during the testing, all testers were showing a lot of feedback regarding Stamina and new ship effects to be able to effectively test capture points and minotaur, but we saw it get turned from an ineffective weapon to a slightly over-powered weapon.

[Crafeksterty]

People, be creative! Try to counter, try to think, what can be done to surpass these weakesses?


I found out that pyras are definetly not worth taking if "you like to charge head on from a predictable and easy to see area with no reaction torwards the enemy until you get close."
The pyras health is essentialy Junker now, weres the junker has a harder to hit hull + more armor. But in pyras defence versus this balance is hes got 2 guns and is faster.
Try and use all the gun slots, when was the last time you considered the side guns as a viable solution to your tactics? Before most and almost all did not because it wouldnt be necesary, now youl have to consider having weapons that give you some safety. And i dont mean trifecta, actual 2 stances of combat, instead of just 1.

And as for the minotaur, i discovered that bringing Moonshine makes the minotaur Useless if you know how to use it against oncoming shots.
That means that next level gunners need to be unpredictable with their minotaur shots, pilots need to bring moonshine and use it correctly.

Its like chem versus flamethrower. But in this case it is greater, Moonshine renders a minotaur really useless if used right. The enemy who shoots monshine does next to no real damage + is using up a man slot manning the gun which is a slot wasted because a pilot chose to waste those slots by sacrificing one pilot tool. If anything i havent seen close range greased Minotaur just yett. But I now see that it is a more flexible and difficult to fight gun if it is a closer gun. Still havent seen one but i have to.

[ShadedExalt]

I can't believe people complain about the Pyra having an auto-bifecta when the Mobula, Junker, Spire, and Galleon can have automatic TRIfectas.  The Pyra was also designed to be the Vanguard- Soak up damage and dish out almost as much.  That would necessitate it being heavy and slow.  So buff either armor or hull, and nerf accel a mite more.  Slow to start, unstoppable once it starts, but you have to keep momentum.  I do believe that the Pyra should be more tactical than 'RUSH MEAN ENEMY SHIP FROM ACROSS MAP AND KILL DEM, DURRHURR', but it should be able to actually do something like "OK guys, there's the enemy.  We sneak up behind cover, and then once we're close enough, we burn 'Shine and ram them.  Fire the Gat/Art while we're at it, and then the main engi hops in the mortar/banshee/explosive weapon on the side."  ATM, it gets shredded to pieces.

[Dr Brobotnik]

I do not see moonshine as a valid counter. Forcing you to damage your own ship just to deal with a single weapon feels all sorts of wrong. Chem spray doesn't damage the ship - now try to go constant moonshine while also combating flamethrower along with the minotaur, my oh my... This is exactly why I would have liked the minotaur to be a stopping weapon - counter vs close range, most of all the dreaded flamethrower. It would have added a spoke on the meta wheel, so to speak, which is never a bad thing. You can chem spray, or if you are fine with giving up a heavy gunport, go with minotaur. It could have been great. But instead we get a gun that can disable most of a ships firepower for a relatively low cost.

[Hoja Lateralus]

Junker doesn't have an automatic trifecta. It takes some skill to position your ship correctly for that, and it works only with high-arc guns.
Mobula have it's gun slots spreaded widely so it also doesn't have trifecta on all guns (I learned it the hard way, trying to have tripple hades build).
Pyramidion has bifectas on everything except double merc.

I'm afraid that all we'll get from minotaur will be new meta with ships focusing on disabling power. Glorious artemis will be welcomed back to the strict meta.

[Crafeksterty]

Dr bobotnik, try. Just a simple touch of monshine is enough to render any turning movement. So when you get hit by a minotaur, simply hit moonshine for the small second youl get hit again and then you dont have to keep moonshine on for that long.

The time it takes to fire heavy clip Minotaur is quite long so youl have enough time to turn back and hit moonshine just before another shot. And its only 3 shots if he has heavy clip.
Like you cant just not be try something. And really it renders a person managing the gun and the gun slot on the enemy ship very obsolete if you can use moonshine versus minotaur well.