Remove Flamethrower

[Jaraxlle]

I fell in love with this game the moment my crew and I got on our ship and played our first game.  It was the most fun we have had in a new game in ages.  All of that started to crumble as soon as we got out of the novice section and we started fighting crews ranging in the levels all the way up to 39 in our very first match.  Until this match we had a blast every game!  Win or lose, we felt like it was because of how we performed.  It was on us. 

This match introduced us to the flamethrower, and since this match, we have seen every team abuse the flamethrower.  All of the great fights we had before were now over.  It brought the game down to two kinds of fights.  Ranged "sniping" or rush the enemy ship and see who kills who with the flamethrower first.  I don't care if this problem only exists at certain levels. 

If any aspect of the game is impossible to balance, if it makes new or newish players wonder if they want to play the game or not ((keeping in mind that the most players I have seen active=1700, and this game is better than that)) then I suggest we remove the problem as if it never existed, and cauterize the wound for any players that relied on this technique for the wins.  Let the game be played the way it was intended!  Intense fights between ships and teams of ships!  The flamethrower will not be missed!

[Replaceable]

"Use the Chemical Spray Luke"

Flamethrower can easily be countered in one of 2 ways really. Out ranging them as mentioned.
Or putting on chemical spray before a fight- and keeping it maintained.
With chemical spray, flamethrower does nothing. It's damage is laughable.

Which is exactly what you'll be doing next time you hard counter the flamethrower.

But yeah all the veteran players take chemical spray it's far superior. Highly recommend you try it before you complain flamer is OP.

[Indreams]

Although, you do have a valid point.


At the moment, Flamethrowers either wreck your ship or slightly warms your ship.
There's a high necessity for good balance change.

And Matchmaker isn't quite perfect. But you shouldn't feel too bad about being match made with 39+ veterans. That means you've proven yourselves to be quite competent.
Don't feel too bad about being stomped by them either. Many 39+ veterans play competitive, or have played 1000+ matches. It's logical that you will get stomped. In fact, I often get stomped by them.


Just a heads up, its hard to read a forum post when its all large and bolded. I understand your frustration however.

[BlackenedPies]

As a vocal opponent of the flamethrower, I wouldn't like to see it removed. But:
If your ship is chem sprayed, flames are useless. If you aren't, then you die with no chance whatsoever. I refuse to use it because it's pointless- it's either an auto kill or does nothing.

The problem with the flamethrower is how easy and effective it is to use. It has excessive range, arcs, and clip-reload ratio. It's the easiest gun in the game with no skill requirement. In pub matches it's just a cheap win and there's no reason to not bring a flamethrower.

To Jaraxxlle and all other players, I deeply regret to inform you that there is no interest from the community to balance the flamethrower. I simply don't understand why.

[Dutch Vanya]

I don't think the flamethrower is a fun weapon either. To shoot or get shot by.

[DrTentacles]

Flamethrowers are quite effectively usable in a specific niche. It's true-and intentional-that chem spray completely negates their threat. It's also true that they nuke teams that don't know how to use it. On the surface, that appears unbalanced.

However, where a flamethrower shines-and finds it's niche-is as a secondary harassment weapon paired with another disable. You take out components, then flame to exploit gaps in chem spray caused by broken parts, or force them to choose between chemming, and fully rebuilding a part after it goes down to a hwatcha or cannonade. That's, in my eyes, the "ideal" use of a flamethrower, and it remains effective, but not overpowered, in competitive games. 

[BlackenedPies]

However, where a flamethrower shines-and finds it's niche-is as a secondary harassment weapon paired with another disable. You take out components, then flame to exploit gaps in chem spray caused by broken parts, or force them to choose between chemming, and fully rebuilding a part after it goes down to a hwatcha or cannonade. That's, in my eyes, the "ideal" use of a flamethrower, and it remains effective, but not overpowered, in competitive games.

This is a common view but it's missing the point. The flamethrower has excellent arcs, excessive range for being a close range weapon, and it has a huge clip with a short reload. It's also good against hull when armor is broken. As a disable weapon it's awfully good at killing.

Nerf any aspect and it's still a highly effective weapon with competitive use. It's main use is as Easy mode in pub matches. The complaint is that it is an unfair weapon that should be removed. I just think it shouldn't be a lazy one gun kill.

[Richard LeMoon]

I have been saying for a while now to nerf its range so that lesmok is what standard range is now.

[Kamoba]

I have had arguments with some friends for my refusal to use flame throwers against new/ai players, I rarely use flame thrower, but would hate to see it removed, it is the weapon which teaches the importance of Chem Cycles and Chem Cycles are important as fires start.coming from Hades, Flaks, Banshee's, Flares and other weapons.

[Squidslinger Gilder]

I fell in love with this game the moment my crew and I got on our ship and played our first game.  It was the most fun we have had in a new game in ages.  All of that started to crumble as soon as we got out of the novice section and we started fighting crews ranging in the levels all the way up to 39 in our very first match.  Until this match we had a blast every game!  Win or lose, we felt like it was because of how we performed.  It was on us. 

This match introduced us to the flamethrower, and since this match, we have seen every team abuse the flamethrower.  All of the great fights we had before were now over.  It brought the game down to two kinds of fights.  Ranged "sniping" or rush the enemy ship and see who kills who with the flamethrower first.  I don't care if this problem only exists at certain levels. 

If any aspect of the game is impossible to balance, if it makes new or newish players wonder if they want to play the game or not ((keeping in mind that the most players I have seen active=1700, and this game is better than that)) then I suggest we remove the problem as if it never existed, and cauterize the wound for any players that relied on this technique for the wins.  Let the game be played the way it was intended!  Intense fights between ships and teams of ships!  The flamethrower will not be missed!

Can I hug you Jaraxlle? You've just proved one of my arguments I've been making for awhile. You are what every GOIO noob should be. One that cares about the game and actually posts here. There should be a guide written for all noobs with your picture on it that reads..."This is how you should respond to this broken game." Thank you thank you!

It is either ranged play or flamethrower/blender charges. I'd guess you faced a blender/flamer pyra. Even with Chem, the blender will eventually cause cycles to be broken so either way, you are doomed as it tries to ram you down.

Fight me sometime, I absolutely hate using blenders or flamers. I do from time to time due to request/etc. But the builds are boring and skilless imo. I will however throw mines at you, which when I have the right miner, will make you wish I was flying a flamer/blender. But you at least have a chance to pick on my ally if you want an easy kill.

Flamer really doesn't need nerfing, the rest of the ships just need a rebalancing just so they have a chance to evade it better.

[Dutch Vanya]

I have been saying for a while now to nerf its range so that lesmok is what standard range is now.

This. 100%

[Crafeksterty]

The "excessive" range is still the closest ranging weapon.
The only things that make it longer is Lesmok. Sure lets nerf its range.

But it is still on you that you cannot counter flames. Like you said, your performance. A gattling mortar can still kill a flamer ship faster than the flamer ship kills back. Its just about timing.
A hard counter is chemsprays, or good uses with extinguisher. (extinguisher needs a buff i think).

So what people do is they chemspray their closest equipment when approaching the ship with flames.
If you dont know how to fight against fire, your engineers are not good. Or atleast, not trying anything different.

Gunners and pilots have loads of dynamic problems they have to solve, while engineers dont. The only depth they get to is cycles of repair and timing. Flames simply add to another type of depth. If the engineers are able to fulfill fighting against flames, then its back to being easy as pie.

[c-ponter]

I play nearly exclusively main engi and I personally agree that the threat of fire is really needed for this, otherwise it would be boring as hell.
Also it's really, really satisfying to go against a team of newer players who still have the 'flamer is OP' mindset so they bring a doubleflamer front  pyra, which you alone can make 99% redundant  XD

[Sammy B. T.]

There are three phases of knowing the flamer

1st knowing of its complete dominance due to insane disable and overwhelm power.
2nd knowing of its pure uselessness due to chem spray.
3rd knowing that it is actually a fairly decent and well balanced secondary weapon.


Against pubs as pubs its bloody murder.
Against veterans as pubs its useless.
Against veterans as veterans it has a niche effectiveness.

[Patched Wizard]

I see the main purpose of the flamethrower is pressure. This pressure is used against the opposing pilots and their engineers to control each engagement.

Each weapon operates efficiently within set ranges and pilots can roughly control the battle with this knowledge. However, other than the Carronades and Lumberjack there are no other dedicated control weapons except the flamethrower. Against pilots, the flamethrower zones them into patterns of behaviour where you can start to dictate each encounter. To put it simply, if your opponent wants to fight at close range, flame them. If your opponent wants to engage at long range, shoot them or flank them and then flame them.

Another consideration is that high level engineers are notoriously effective. They can resist some of the most punishing bombardments and keep all the components on a ship at operating levels without breaking their patterns. But when there is a flamethrower, it demands perfection from the engineers. One slip in the cycle and components will catch more than 3 stacks of fire, leading to time wasted trying to put out the fire, causing more components to be damaged, which will allow key components to break, then more time lost on rebuilding the broken components, and then cycle repeats.

Flamethrowers are needed to control the tactical decisions that a pilot can make and to pressure engineers out of their repair and chem-cycle patterns.

This is a very brief explanation of the utility of the flamethrower and there are many other nuanced details that complement the inclusion of the flamethrower in the game. I agree that as a new player the flamethrower is devastating. I know, because I was at one point just like you and just like you I had to face the threat that the flamethrower proposed and overcome it. But the flamethrower isn't overpowered and can be surmounted with the right tactics and experience.

Keep working at it and you'll find your way like we all did. If you need help, feel free to find me in game or crew for other experienced teams and ask them for help. Almost all of us are happy to help as long as you're happy to ask and listen.