Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Jaraxlle on February 17, 2015, 08:26:23 pm
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I fell in love with this game the moment my crew and I got on our ship and played our first game. It was the most fun we have had in a new game in ages. All of that started to crumble as soon as we got out of the novice section and we started fighting crews ranging in the levels all the way up to 39 in our very first match. Until this match we had a blast every game! Win or lose, we felt like it was because of how we performed. It was on us.
This match introduced us to the flamethrower, and since this match, we have seen every team abuse the flamethrower. All of the great fights we had before were now over. It brought the game down to two kinds of fights. Ranged "sniping" or rush the enemy ship and see who kills who with the flamethrower first. I don't care if this problem only exists at certain levels.
If any aspect of the game is impossible to balance, if it makes new or newish players wonder if they want to play the game or not ((keeping in mind that the most players I have seen active=1700, and this game is better than that)) then I suggest we remove the problem as if it never existed, and cauterize the wound for any players that relied on this technique for the wins. Let the game be played the way it was intended! Intense fights between ships and teams of ships! The flamethrower will not be missed!
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"Use the Chemical Spray Luke"
Flamethrower can easily be countered in one of 2 ways really. Out ranging them as mentioned.
Or putting on chemical spray before a fight- and keeping it maintained.
With chemical spray, flamethrower does nothing. It's damage is laughable.
Which is exactly what you'll be doing next time you hard counter the flamethrower.
But yeah all the veteran players take chemical spray it's far superior. Highly recommend you try it before you complain flamer is OP.
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Although, you do have a valid point.
At the moment, Flamethrowers either wreck your ship or slightly warms your ship.
There's a high necessity for good balance change.
And Matchmaker isn't quite perfect. But you shouldn't feel too bad about being match made with 39+ veterans. That means you've proven yourselves to be quite competent.
Don't feel too bad about being stomped by them either. Many 39+ veterans play competitive, or have played 1000+ matches. It's logical that you will get stomped. In fact, I often get stomped by them.
Just a heads up, its hard to read a forum post when its all large and bolded. I understand your frustration however.
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As a vocal opponent of the flamethrower, I wouldn't like to see it removed. But:
If your ship is chem sprayed, flames are useless. If you aren't, then you die with no chance whatsoever. I refuse to use it because it's pointless- it's either an auto kill or does nothing.
The problem with the flamethrower is how easy and effective it is to use. It has excessive range, arcs, and clip-reload ratio. It's the easiest gun in the game with no skill requirement. In pub matches it's just a cheap win and there's no reason to not bring a flamethrower.
To Jaraxxlle and all other players, I deeply regret to inform you that there is no interest from the community to balance the flamethrower. I simply don't understand why.
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I don't think the flamethrower is a fun weapon either. To shoot or get shot by.
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Flamethrowers are quite effectively usable in a specific niche. It's true-and intentional-that chem spray completely negates their threat. It's also true that they nuke teams that don't know how to use it. On the surface, that appears unbalanced.
However, where a flamethrower shines-and finds it's niche-is as a secondary harassment weapon paired with another disable. You take out components, then flame to exploit gaps in chem spray caused by broken parts, or force them to choose between chemming, and fully rebuilding a part after it goes down to a hwatcha or cannonade. That's, in my eyes, the "ideal" use of a flamethrower, and it remains effective, but not overpowered, in competitive games.
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However, where a flamethrower shines-and finds it's niche-is as a secondary harassment weapon paired with another disable. You take out components, then flame to exploit gaps in chem spray caused by broken parts, or force them to choose between chemming, and fully rebuilding a part after it goes down to a hwatcha or cannonade. That's, in my eyes, the "ideal" use of a flamethrower, and it remains effective, but not overpowered, in competitive games.
This is a common view but it's missing the point. The flamethrower has excellent arcs, excessive range for being a close range weapon, and it has a huge clip with a short reload. It's also good against hull when armor is broken. As a disable weapon it's awfully good at killing.
Nerf any aspect and it's still a highly effective weapon with competitive use. It's main use is as Easy mode in pub matches. The complaint is that it is an unfair weapon that should be removed. I just think it shouldn't be a lazy one gun kill.
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I have been saying for a while now to nerf its range so that lesmok is what standard range is now.
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I have had arguments with some friends for my refusal to use flame throwers against new/ai players, I rarely use flame thrower, but would hate to see it removed, it is the weapon which teaches the importance of Chem Cycles and Chem Cycles are important as fires start.coming from Hades, Flaks, Banshee's, Flares and other weapons.
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I fell in love with this game the moment my crew and I got on our ship and played our first game. It was the most fun we have had in a new game in ages. All of that started to crumble as soon as we got out of the novice section and we started fighting crews ranging in the levels all the way up to 39 in our very first match. Until this match we had a blast every game! Win or lose, we felt like it was because of how we performed. It was on us.
This match introduced us to the flamethrower, and since this match, we have seen every team abuse the flamethrower. All of the great fights we had before were now over. It brought the game down to two kinds of fights. Ranged "sniping" or rush the enemy ship and see who kills who with the flamethrower first. I don't care if this problem only exists at certain levels.
If any aspect of the game is impossible to balance, if it makes new or newish players wonder if they want to play the game or not ((keeping in mind that the most players I have seen active=1700, and this game is better than that)) then I suggest we remove the problem as if it never existed, and cauterize the wound for any players that relied on this technique for the wins. Let the game be played the way it was intended! Intense fights between ships and teams of ships! The flamethrower will not be missed!
Can I hug you Jaraxlle? You've just proved one of my arguments I've been making for awhile. You are what every GOIO noob should be. One that cares about the game and actually posts here. There should be a guide written for all noobs with your picture on it that reads..."This is how you should respond to this broken game." Thank you thank you!
It is either ranged play or flamethrower/blender charges. I'd guess you faced a blender/flamer pyra. Even with Chem, the blender will eventually cause cycles to be broken so either way, you are doomed as it tries to ram you down.
Fight me sometime, I absolutely hate using blenders or flamers. I do from time to time due to request/etc. But the builds are boring and skilless imo. I will however throw mines at you, which when I have the right miner, will make you wish I was flying a flamer/blender. But you at least have a chance to pick on my ally if you want an easy kill.
Flamer really doesn't need nerfing, the rest of the ships just need a rebalancing just so they have a chance to evade it better.
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I have been saying for a while now to nerf its range so that lesmok is what standard range is now.
This. 100%
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The "excessive" range is still the closest ranging weapon.
The only things that make it longer is Lesmok. Sure lets nerf its range.
But it is still on you that you cannot counter flames. Like you said, your performance. A gattling mortar can still kill a flamer ship faster than the flamer ship kills back. Its just about timing.
A hard counter is chemsprays, or good uses with extinguisher. (extinguisher needs a buff i think).
So what people do is they chemspray their closest equipment when approaching the ship with flames.
If you dont know how to fight against fire, your engineers are not good. Or atleast, not trying anything different.
Gunners and pilots have loads of dynamic problems they have to solve, while engineers dont. The only depth they get to is cycles of repair and timing. Flames simply add to another type of depth. If the engineers are able to fulfill fighting against flames, then its back to being easy as pie.
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I play nearly exclusively main engi and I personally agree that the threat of fire is really needed for this, otherwise it would be boring as hell.
Also it's really, really satisfying to go against a team of newer players who still have the 'flamer is OP' mindset so they bring a doubleflamer front pyra, which you alone can make 99% redundant XD
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There are three phases of knowing the flamer
1st knowing of its complete dominance due to insane disable and overwhelm power.
2nd knowing of its pure uselessness due to chem spray.
3rd knowing that it is actually a fairly decent and well balanced secondary weapon.
Against pubs as pubs its bloody murder.
Against veterans as pubs its useless.
Against veterans as veterans it has a niche effectiveness.
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I see the main purpose of the flamethrower is pressure. This pressure is used against the opposing pilots and their engineers to control each engagement.
Each weapon operates efficiently within set ranges and pilots can roughly control the battle with this knowledge. However, other than the Carronades and Lumberjack there are no other dedicated control weapons except the flamethrower. Against pilots, the flamethrower zones them into patterns of behaviour where you can start to dictate each encounter. To put it simply, if your opponent wants to fight at close range, flame them. If your opponent wants to engage at long range, shoot them or flank them and then flame them.
Another consideration is that high level engineers are notoriously effective. They can resist some of the most punishing bombardments and keep all the components on a ship at operating levels without breaking their patterns. But when there is a flamethrower, it demands perfection from the engineers. One slip in the cycle and components will catch more than 3 stacks of fire, leading to time wasted trying to put out the fire, causing more components to be damaged, which will allow key components to break, then more time lost on rebuilding the broken components, and then cycle repeats.
Flamethrowers are needed to control the tactical decisions that a pilot can make and to pressure engineers out of their repair and chem-cycle patterns.
This is a very brief explanation of the utility of the flamethrower and there are many other nuanced details that complement the inclusion of the flamethrower in the game. I agree that as a new player the flamethrower is devastating. I know, because I was at one point just like you and just like you I had to face the threat that the flamethrower proposed and overcome it. But the flamethrower isn't overpowered and can be surmounted with the right tactics and experience.
Keep working at it and you'll find your way like we all did. If you need help, feel free to find me in game or crew for other experienced teams and ask them for help. Almost all of us are happy to help as long as you're happy to ask and listen.
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(http://seddy5.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec49e4e4970b0133ec9e60c4970b-pi)
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Maybe it is time to revisit a pilot tool idea (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2802.msg47915.html#msg47915) I had for dealing with lots of fire. With some thought and tinkering, I am sure a Halon system could be just the thing for newer crews facing fire onslaughts. After they learn how to deal with fire normally, the tool becomes redundant and they stop using it. Fire suppression training wheels, so to speak.
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The flamer is a weapon best paired with something that disrupts chem cycles. As Sammy and Patched point out, it is a weapon that starts out seeming unbalanced because without chemspray applied to vital components before the engagement starts you are in deep crap. With it a flame thrower alone is basically useless. Pair it with something that disrupts chem cycles (carronade or gatling say) and it is a effective, reasonably well balanced weapon that tips longer engagements in your favour.
I'm sorry you were paired against very experienced crews. This is likely a result of MM determining from the novice games that you played in that you are pretty good, giving you a high win rate. There aren't many experienced players in the MM queue at any given time, so they are often just paired off against whatever the matchmaker thinks are the next best players available. On the plus side you can be proud that is you, on the down side 1000+ matches experience is hard to overcome even with great twitch reflexes and a sharp mind.
Once out of novice games all players have access to all the same ships and tools. This is not a level thing, there is just a tactic (flame spam) which enemies are exploiting to beat you. Once you know how to counter it (chem cycles), it will be less of a problem. Of course then you will find new tactics you will have to counter (snipe heavy builds, meta builds, blending, and on and on), this game is absurdly deep. If you want someone to go over the basics of chem cycles with you and your crew feel at liberty to contact me in game. The basics are pretty simple. A word of advice though, always, always, always make sure you have at least one engineer with chemspray unless there is a reason you wont need it (instagib mobulas or spires frequently run chem spray free). Experienced pilots check the enemy load-outs and if you do not have any chemspray they are going to include something with fire damage, likely a flame thrower, possible more than one. Simply having your engineers bring chemspray will reduce the amount of fire spam you encounter, even if you are using it sub-optimally.
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So yeah, like everyone has said there will be no attempt to balance the flame. Fire extinguishers are completely useless against constant fire no matter how good your engineers are. Their only use is prolonging your death.
Unless you're using a gun that absolutely needs a gunner (lumberjack and mine launcher), have 3 engineers with chem spray. Chem spray after every single reload. If you miss a chem you lose. The good news is that with proper chem their flame is useless giving you a precious advantage to make something happen.
Not having a gunner gives you a huge advantage because buff engineers are superior on nearly all weapons with their ability to buff guns and components (buff and chem every reload). The standard buff loadout is wrench buff chem. Bring 3 chem sprays and a buff and wreck those bullies.
Call it what you want, but when I used to always use flames I was bullying pubs. I used to fly a double flame squid (43 win streak with all AI) and made many rage quit. Having nearly the whole enemy team leave was a common occurrence. Many likely never came back. It's so freaking easy why wouldn't you use it against pubs?
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Been thinking today actually, and I agree with Pies. There should be some middle ground.
Not a binary system of death and fire or perfectly okay. It's a bit weird.
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I have read the arguments here and on the steam community forums. I don't think I come across very clear. So please read this carefully:
The Flamethrower sucks. It changes the combat in the game for the worse. The game is better off without it.
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I believe The Dude said it best:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4104/5166465451_ded900eaf8_z.jpg)
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I have read the arguments here and on the steam community forums. I don't think I come across very clear. So please read this carefully:
The Flamethrower sucks. It changes the combat in the game for the worse. The game is better off without it.
I have read your argument here. I don't think we've come across very clear. So please read this carefully:
No.
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I don't think the flamethrower is a fun weapon either. To shoot or get shot by.
Pff, you just don't see it's hidden Glory.
Oh, by the way everyone, this has already been discussed on the Steam Forums.
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The flamer has gone through many forms of nerfing and in it's current state (and I say this as an engineer) it's fine. Once you understand the game, it's very easy to counter. And it's 2 words
Chem Spray
In the early game, you learn to spray certain components before you come into contact with an enemy ship that you know has flamers or as you come into contact with that ship. You suffer some fires, but you can recover from them with any semblance of basic engineering. Eventually, you're able to keep a ship sprayed for, basically, the entire game. It's not OP, and it's a very useful weapon I would be sad to see go
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Pff, you just don't see it's hidden Glory.
Oh, by the way everyone, this has already been discussed on the Steam Forums.
[/quote]
LOL, Steam forums are for skrubz. Use real forums or B UbrSkurb.
(I am sorry, I just couldn't resist.)
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Pff, you just don't see it's hidden Glory.
Oh, by the way everyone, this has already been discussed on the Steam Forums.
[/quote]
LOL, Steam forums are for skrubz. Use real forums or B UbrSkurb.
[/quote]
I do use these forums more. However, I'm just pointing out how this argument is useless as it's already been won.
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There are Steam forums?
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There are Steam forums?
Exactly. That is why these are the real forums.
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There are Steam forums?
They're titled "Discussions". but you can immediately see they're forums.
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I was being a bit facetious there. The Steam discussions are a good place to not get heard.
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The Flamethrower sucks. It changes the combat in the game for the worse. The game is better off without it.
2/3 of this is accurate.
The flamethrower shoots a straight stream of particles with no physics attached. Each particle has a fire chance to catch everything it touches on fire. The particles fly through the ship and one particle could catch an entire ship on fire.
Oh, and there are hundreds of particles and hardly any reload. The hwatcha has a long reload because of its high disable power. The flame has a short reload because screw noobs?
On paper the flamethrower has great specs making it superior to every other weapon. It dumbs down combat to the point of being magic. It's lazy. One gun one kill.
A flamethrower makes sense in this game but this weapon makes no sense. Chem spray like a pro or one gun will kill you. If you don't have or use chem no amount of skill will save you from a single weapon. Be pro or die a boring death.
This is what the whole thread is saying. We don't care it's unfair, you just aren't good enough. It's balanced because chem. Reread the original post guys. Chem is not as advertised.
Jaraxlle I apologize for the behaviour of the people on this thread towards our new community. The mention of taking away the win gun puts them up in arms. This topic makes me angry.
My longest win streak was in an all AI ship with flamethrowers. It was ridiculously easy even against full chem spray ships.
It earned me my 43 win streak. How can an all AI ship with a crappy squid pilot be so successful. I guess all AI squids are just OP.
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Screw you and your OP squid. How is anyone supposed to handle that speed+ the AI accuracy?
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I agree the flamethrower needs to be looked at again. Due to it's binary win/lose nature.
Or more concessions should be made to it's arcs or range or ammo to balance it's current power out.
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While flamers yield devastating results against less experienced players, they don't really pose a threat to experienced crews (flamers are barely ever used in competitive goi matches). The trick is to deal with flamer ships before you slide into a flamer lockdown. Flamer builds generally lack raw damage output and hence can be outgunned before they turn into a serious threat. To pull this off three things need to be done:
1.) chem sprayed hull, balloon (and weapons)
2.) focused and well timed gun fire
3.) if a component is set on fire and gets damaged by another source (e.g. a gatling or carronade) it's usually a futile attempt to extinguish the fires during the engagements. The better call is often to buy some additional time to deal with the ship by malleting the component instead.
That's quite some coordination and team work which is needed to counter a tactic that's as simple as "gunner, point that thing into their general direction and left click!". That's the key problem of the flame-thrower balance. Countering flamers requires an unproportionally high level of coordination.
Overall I think the flamer is balanced horribly right now. It's devastating when fielded against inexperienced crews to a point where some consider to quit playing the game over it. At the same time it's way too unreliable when used against experienced crews - to a degree barely anyone dares to use it as a primary weapon.
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All that has to be done is make Fire Extinguisher a bit more usable, that way even the inexperienced will be able to handle it.
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Overall I think the flamer is balanced horribly right now. It's devastating when fielded against inexperienced crews to a point where some consider to quit playing the game over it. At the same time it's way too unreliable when used against experienced crews - to a degree barely anyone dares to use it as a primary weapon.
This is a problem that Muse is also trying to solve because the flamer is really difficult to handle for newer crews.
Aside from disabling ships that don't have active chem cycles, a viable flamer use against experienced crews is as a disable follow-up. This is notably on a Hwachafish, the flamer to buys time for a Hwacha reload and ship repositioning for a better second volley.
I've decided to study the sequence and numbers:
Hwacha reload: 14s
*Flamer suppression*
Light gun rebuild: spanner 6s, wrench 7.3s (assuming 1 person rebuilding)
Forced chem spray: 5s
(Return fire: 3s or 1.7s)
The force on chem spray means the light guns don't get fully repaired for a full 5s; they work at less than 40% efficiency with very poor turn speed. In a common Hwachafish vs Pyra scenario - without the flamer follow-up, the Pyra's light guns will easily get fully repaired and overpower the Hwachafish. Executed well, a Hwachafish can completely disable most ships in 2 volleys, and quickly leave the engagement to help with other ships.
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Oh it's this thread again :'D
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Oh it's this thread again :'D
Yup and I think the majority agree, flamer is OP against newbies and UP against "vets"
I think flamer range (lesmok op) nerf and Ext buff would help balance things out a lot:)
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Don't forget. A part of fire fighting is the pilot too.
Don't fly into a fire. Especially when you know your crew is fresh.
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Don't forget. A part of fire fighting is the pilot too.
Don't fly into a fire. Especially when you know your crew is fresh.
Not an option. They bring the flames to you.
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Don't forget. A part of fire fighting is the pilot too.
Don't fly into a fire. Especially when you know your crew is fresh.
That's not an option. Ships can't backpedal fast enough to escape a pyra, nor can they outrun a squid.
I agree about not flying into flamers on galleons, spires and other static ships, but "just don't fly into the flames" isn't an argument to be made against the flamer's noob-slaying power.
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"Use the Chemical Spray Luke"
[ mashes the "Salute" button ]
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Don't forget. A part of fire fighting is the pilot too.
Don't fly into a fire. Especially when you know your crew is fresh.
That's not an option. Ships can't backpedal fast enough to escape a pyra, nor can they outrun a squid.
I agree about not flying into flamers on galleons, spires and other static ships, but "just don't fly into the flames" isn't an argument to be made against the flamer's noob-slaying power.
I have to agree with kestril here, not only for the reasons given but the the expectations of new players to play so tactically....
Many (not all) new players are just "in it for the fun" without any thought on how they engage the enemy beyond "front guns" "side guns" or "give up"
Because of this frame of mind, expecting the players who this effects most to not only engage in the right manner (and know what they're up against) is not the case...
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Oh it's this thread again :'D
Yup and I think the majority agree, flamer is OP against newbies and UP against "vets"
Doesn't this mean it's badly balanced?
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I think that how the flamer is now is good. In my humble opinion, new players are learning the hard way that proper spraying is essential, not only against flamer itself, but also against any kind of burning gun like banshee or hades. And that panic is a real killer.
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Oh it's this thread again :'D
Yup and I think the majority agree, flamer is OP against newbies and UP against "vets"
Doesn't this mean it's badly balanced?
Yes its badly balanced, but not something to be removed entirely :)
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Going to be a little bit of sell-outy here.
Just changing the numbers aren't going to give us the right balance.
What we need is a creative, new way to balance the Flamethrower. Such as the fire tool reload (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5623.0.html) mechanic I've suggested.
Click and find out! :)
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what if the extinguisher just provided slightly longer fire immunity than it currently does
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what if the extinguisher just provided slightly longer fire immunity than it currently does
Gets my full biased support.
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Totally down with a better extinguisher. Maybe remove the cool down entirely like it used to be? Maybe then it can stack up (I swear that's not a pun) to chem spray
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Maybe just change the way fire works in general.. Now this maybe poor but its a thought..
Make it so fire over say.. 3ish stacks doesn't do additional damage then currently.. but higher stacks hurt the ship in other ways.. Such as.. If a part has a high stack count it repairs less then normal.. It functions worse then normal (can still use till its very high for guns.. but the gun acts progressively damaged)... Engines would turn and push for less.. Balloon raises/lowers slower.. etc..
And in so fire doesn't just disable because it breaks everything and you can't do anything cause you don't know how to chem spray or can no longer maintain chem spray.. but it does still weaken an enemy ship making it easier for an ally to kill or for you to slowly kill.. because they can't repair, shoot, or maneuver as fast.. But they aren't entirely disabled..
Also to buff flamethrower then vs chem - make it so fire stacks reduce the time chem spray lasts.. So every stack it blocks makes it lose some time.. So you have to chem more vs flamethrowers then - say a hades.. This might buff the fire ext vs flamethrowers then depending on how its balanced out..
This would have to be played with to find what feels fair both ways.. (ie what is disabling enough that its not a sure win or sure loss), but would be more interesting approach then just dmg based disabling maybe..
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I think it might be neat to adjust fire stack chance based on current fire stacks, so prolonged flaming becomes a diminishing return. This would be more tolerant of extinguishers, and we could make each individual fire stack more significant in some way, see below.
The 'fire stack disable' could be implemented as fire stacks subtracting from the component's maximum health, so its new peak performance is worse than before.
I've been bouncing an idea around for a while that fire stacks on guns/enginges should increase by themselves if the component spins/fires, so if your gun gains 1 stack and you keep shooting the fire stacks grow on their own. Same for engine, if you don't stop burning the fire stacks increase.
Honestly it's a really difficult problem, how to make flamer balanced and fun at all levels. In tf2 for example fire works much simpler, there is no chemspray equivalent (vaccinator kinda works but sucks for other reasons) only extinguishers.
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Competitive flamethrower isn't a thing? Did nobody pick up the mantle in the past year since Rainbow Crash docked? This makes me sad...
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Competitive flamethrower isn't a thing? Did nobody pick up the mantle in the past year since Rainbow Crash docked? This makes me sad...
Both us and SPQR have been using flamers on mobulas all the time.
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Both us and SPQR have been using flamers on mobulas all the time.
Good. People saying it doesn't work in competitive. Bah humbug.
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what if the extinguisher just provided slightly longer fire immunity than it currently does
Gets my full biased support.
This sounds like an excellent idea to me too actually.
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Don't forget, it is NOT EASY to chem spray PERFECTLY to the point where every important component is protected from fire and you still have time to do other things. This what it takes to completely counter the flamethrower and it's not fun and i've barely seen any players do it that well. The flamethrower is also competitively viable and completely destroys the game for new players. But most of you still think it is in a good place?
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Most of the time a surprise flame gets used in competitive there end up being fire stacks anyways. Keeping up chems during combat isn't as simple and effective as many advertise.
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As an engineer in a competitive team, it's really hard to keep up chem during heavy fire, and sometimes a suprise flamer thrown in is enough to send us overboard
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(http://1d4chan.org/images/a/ab/BurnHereticsBurn.jpg)
just sayin.
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Ok, now reorient the fire streams to be coming out of the victim rather than the attackers, and you'll se what it's like to fire the Prometheus Heavy Flamethrower.
"I've built two, actually. One for the 'Fish, one for my face. Wanna see?"
*Opens mouth to reveal what looks like a pair of Phobos mine launchers loaded with napalm kegs in place of the mines. The launchers are attached on either side of a Lumberjack mount modified for two barrels. The ends of the guns are fitted with the brass lions from a Manticore. The lion heads have nozzles in their mouths for liquid spraying, and can swing up (like on the Manticore) to launch the entire keg.*
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(http://1d4chan.org/images/a/ab/BurnHereticsBurn.jpg)
just sayin.
YOUR EMPEROR IS FALSE
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(http://1d4chan.org/images/a/ab/BurnHereticsBurn.jpg)
just sayin.
YOUR EMPEROR IS FALSE
>inb4 Salamanders give no fucks
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>inb4 Salamanders give no fucks
Into the fires of battle!
Unto the anvil of war!
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>inb4 Salamanders give no fucks
Into the fires of battle!
Unto the anvil of war!
(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/2/22/800px-Angry_Marine_Desktop.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140923171242)
FOR THE EMPEROR
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(http://1d4chan.org/images/a/ab/BurnHereticsBurn.jpg)
just sayin.
4v4 when the enemy has nothing but ai and extinguisher engineers and are against Cake clan ;)
(They love their fire weapons)
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(http://1d4chan.org/images/a/ab/BurnHereticsBurn.jpg)
just sayin.
4v4 when the enemy has nothing but ai and extinguisher engineers and are against Cake clan ;)
(They love their fire weapons)
Speaking of, anyone want to to join me on a 4v4 with us only taking Flame Junkers?
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(http://1d4chan.org/images/a/ab/BurnHereticsBurn.jpg)
just sayin.
4v4 when the enemy has nothing but ai and extinguisher engineers and are against Cake clan ;)
(They love their fire weapons)
Speaking of, anyone want to to join me on a 4v4 with us only taking Flame Junkers?
I would. But only after coming back from my psychiatrist this evening. (I'll be back in 3.5 hours I hope)
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(http://1d4chan.org/images/a/ab/BurnHereticsBurn.jpg)
just sayin.
YOUR EMPEROR IS FALSE
also scrub not using meltaguns to destroy buildings like you actually should. you dun need chem spray if it can't be set on fire.
with that in mind... melta/plasma gun equivalent for the heavy flamer. single shot hull breaking gun that MELTS armour with harm onto gun with chance to set fire to own hull and gun.
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I was just thinking about various ways to counter the flamer. I came up with four: chem spray, keeping away, blowing up the flamer, and just flat out killing that damn ship.
It occurs to me that every one of those methods is proactive. Reactive counters to the flamer are pretty rare by comparison. I think maybe this is what gives newbies problems with it. It's all like, "Oh, I'm just now learning this fun new game, and now everything I love is burning."
While I personally view the flamethrower as a fascinating weapon that adds a unique facet to this game, considering the fact that you pretty much have to be on top of everything to counter it, I can see how newbies would view that weapon as interesting in the same way that ducks view hunting as a sport.
So what IS the answer? Is this something that would require us to educate newbies better? Would a new protip or two dedicated to countering flamers help?
Simply nerfing the gun would make it borderline useless IMO (for what little my opinion is worth).
What do?
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Leave it. Buff flares, so flares can take the model role of noob killer.
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Do we really need a dedicated noob-killer? By virtue of their nature, noobs don't need to be countered.
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Leave it. Buff flares, so flares can take the model role of noob killer.
poons are best noob killers.
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Leave it. Buff flares, so flares can take the model role of noob killer.
poons are best noob killers.
*spoon
(http://video.postjung.com/data/49/49723.image.jpg)
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Leave it. Buff flares, so flares can take the model role of noob killer.
poons are best noob killers.
*spoon
(http://video.postjung.com/data/49/49723.image.jpg)
(https://tytmb.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/tick.jpg)
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Is that Death from Bill and Ted?
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Ginosaji and Death look very similar, though, so...
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I did not know that. Pardon for deleting my post - I've come to think that I ask and I'm not sure about what exactly...
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(http://ipo.totfarm.com/pics/pic_1197845659032.jpg)
I'm screaming Spoon every time I use a flamethrower.
I'm just contributing to derailing this thread. :D
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(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/3e/52/68/3e52689d422b2fc2357a337e6014605c.jpg)
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(http://ipo.totfarm.com/pics/pic_1197845659032.jpg)
I'm screaming Spoon every time I use a flamethrower.
I'm just contributing to derailing this thread. :D
Gone With the Blastwave! <3
Do you want to get salutes? Because that's how you get salutes
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Back to the topic, I've seen it before but never had my own opinion on that. Now it's formed so here it is
I actually consider the flamer and flamercountering as post-basics training. Surely people who trying to learn the basics of game may not understand the mechanics of spraying, because they aren't comfortable with basic skills yet (like "how to get to ballon from hull on mobula").
My counter offer is to remove flamer from standart ships precets, esp in novice matches, same as it is done to flare or mine launcher, to show the new players what is actually flamer is - a nieche weapon, useful in very limited situations
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Back to the topic, I've seen it before but never had my own opinion on that. Now it's formed so here it is
I actually consider the flamer and flamercountering as post-basics training. Surely people who trying to learn the basics of game may not understand the mechanics of spraying, because they aren't comfortable with basic skills yet (like "how to get to ballon from hull on mobula").
My counter offer is to remove flamer from standart ships precets, esp in novice matches, same as it is done to flare or mine launcher, to show the new players what is actually flamer is - a nieche weapon, useful in very limited situations
Actually, thats how it is atm. No flamers in novice, last time Ive been to it was roughly 5-6 months ago after 1.3.8 so Im not sure what changed.
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The problem at the moment is, there are no novice matches...
Also I've come across a few individuals of mid level who for some reason are telling people "Ignore those idiots talking about chem spray, extinguisher is better!) by mid level I mean 22 and higher... So when I hear that, I preach the beauty of chem and load up flamers on my ship, or incendiary mines.... (just in case it is an ally) p.s. Mostly a joke.
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Goddammit. I blame firefox for deleting my post before posting.
To say that short.
Check those guys played matches - I can be thought to be a mid level player, yet I have 900 matches played. This might be one of the effects of "Level inflation" problem covered by Mr.Disaster in similarly named thread.
Those guys can just be farming achievements and looking for easy matches, hence gaining a shitload XP withoout gaining actual experience.
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Goddammit. I blame firefox for deleting my post before posting.
To say that short.
Check those guys played matches - I can be thought to be a mid level player, yet I have 900 matches played. This might be one of the effects of "Level inflation" problem covered by Mr.Disaster in similarly named thread.
Those guys can just be farming achievements and looking for easy matches, hence gaining a shitload XP withoout gaining actual experience.
Oh I know I made a similar thread about the leveling system being too fast now...
I guess it falls down to not judging a player by his level but by the words he types or speaks. :)
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The problem at the moment is, there are no novice matches...
Also I've come across a few individuals of mid level who for some reason are telling people "Ignore those idiots talking about chem spray, extinguisher is better!) by mid level I mean 22 and higher...
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/im_shocked.gif)
Player who have played 200 matches is not really a "mid level player" (I know you meant it technically though)
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The problem at the moment is, there are no novice matches...
Also I've come across a few individuals of mid level who for some reason are telling people "Ignore those idiots talking about chem spray, extinguisher is better!) by mid level I mean 22 and higher...
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/im_shocked.gif)
Player who have played 200 matches is not really a "mid level player" (I know you meant it technically though)
Its the perfect example of why the current leveling system is not good.
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I don't get to play too often. Extended free times I do get are way before or after the "prime time". It's also difficult to create an environment where I can effectively voice chat.
So, I really don't have much more than 300ish matches played. I think the forums are my saving grace.
Forums can be an on and off thing. I only need short free times to check it and write things in it. I'm pretty sure I've logged more time on the forums than anywhere else. Thanks to that, my 300ish matches played has given me 450~500ish matches worth of experience. I can outfit my ship pretty well, I can pilot anything but a Squid, and I can engineer on anything but suicidal Pyramidions.
Perhaps we should promote our amazing community more? GOIO is a game that inevitably creates a great community, with teamwork and such. Perhaps we can get people to read through the guides section, ask questions on Q&A, and read through the ever-improving wiki (big salutes to everyone that works on it)?
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Mid-level is not mid-skill.
Novice--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Expert
1----------------------20---------------------------------------------------------------45------------------------------------+
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Mid-level is not mid-skill.
Novice--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Expert
1----------------------20---------------------------------------------------------------45------------------------------------+
Recounting to matches that'll be :
Novice----------------------------------Decent--------------------------------------------Expert--------------------------------------Lueosi
1----------------------------------------1000----------------------------------------------2000---------------------------------------10000
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Mid-level is not mid-skill.
Novice--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Expert
1----------------------20---------------------------------------------------------------45------------------------------------+
Recounting to matches that'll be :
Novice----------------------------------Decent--------------------------------------------Expert--------------------------------------Lueosi
1----------------------------------------1000----------------------------------------------2000---------------------------------------10000
I frikin swear if Lueosi legit has that many matches.
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Mid-level is not mid-skill.
Novice--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Expert
1----------------------20---------------------------------------------------------------45------------------------------------+
Recounting to matches that'll be :
Novice----------------------------------Decent--------------------------------------------Expert--------------------------------------Lueosi
1----------------------------------------1000----------------------------------------------2000---------------------------------------10000
I frikin swear if Lueosi legit has that many matches.
it's closer to 12000.
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Mid-level is not mid-skill.
Novice--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Expert
1----------------------20---------------------------------------------------------------45------------------------------------+
Recounting to matches that'll be :
Novice----------------------------------Decent--------------------------------------------Expert--------------------------------------Lueosi
1----------------------------------------1000----------------------------------------------2000---------------------------------------10000
I frikin swear if Lueosi legit has that many matches.
it's closer to 12000.
I thought it already was 12000... Infact I think he was on my ship the day he hit 12000
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ye pretty sure it is.
other notable ones: spud is ~10,000
tropo has 9000+
and castus has~6000
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I think we can all agree that Lueosi is a demiMuse.
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(http://i.imgur.com/kFdAFtc.png)
you can tell i worked very hard on this
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Wait i checked during skrim, it is (at time of post) 15220, numbers :)
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:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
WHAT
I'VE PLAYED WITH HIM MONTH AGO
IT WAS NOT EVEN 12K (even HEHEHE)
s;ffgbnmssncanJNNHJJNAVRNTHKNK?!!
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I'm pretty sure kamoba misread that number.
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I would like to note that that is the average player. Some take to the game naturally, and hit expert a lot sooner.
Also, I just hit 4000 yesterday. Time to party!
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I see your clan tag rather proudly states that fact.
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Goddammit. I blame firefox for deleting my post before posting.
I absolutely adore lazarus form restore extension (firefox/chrome). I know it's off-off-topic but it's saved me a lot of heartache over the years and you might be interested :D
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I'm pretty sure kamoba misread that number.
I'm pretty sure you're right... Will get the actual number later :)
Grats on 4k Richard!
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Actual number is a couple hundred under 12k
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Back on topic, should we or should we not remove flamethrower?
Keep it, obviously.
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Back on topic, should we or should we not remove flamethrower?
Keep it, obviously.
It's not something that needs to be removed.
If anything revolved around fire gameplay mechanics needs to be looked at its the extinguisher
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Muse pls buff
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Id say 8 second fire immunity as long as you extinguish a fire so it doesnt become chemspray v2, obviously this is meant to synergise with pipe wrench and a biit with mallet so this may change the buff meta since its possible to either: keep a few, or a single component alive for a long time but you need to be tied to them which can open up interesting strategies (ie,flame junker main engine and shred hull with gat)
Might even go well with gunner if it gets 2 tool slots since you can indefinitely maintain your gun which is darn useful on heavies
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I just want to remove cooldown on extinguisher, a fire fighting tool that relieves you of cooldowns.
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I just want to remove cooldown on extinguisher, a fire fighting tool that relieves you of cooldowns.
(http://rs2ci.memecdn.com/747/3883747.jpg)
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I feel that with current rate of fire stack acquirement the best way to make flamer viable is to a) reduce cooldown to zero b) make it independent of repair cooldowns, like buff hammer. This would bring it on par with chem as a firefighting tool.
IMO giving it a longer immunity simply brings it closer in playstyle to chem and makes it more boring.
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It should have no cooldown and 0.5 second immunity. Against fire heavy teams, bring Extinguisher, Chemspray, Pipe wrench. Never worry about fire.
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If you keep sprays going, you're basically repairing with spanner
(c) Sammy, about RPS during spraying in combat.
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For y'all wondering the math
Mallet with no chems is 250r/9s = 27.78rps
Pipe wrench is 120r/5s = 24 rps
2 mallets and 1 chem (a safe chem cycle) 500r/23s = 21.74rps
Spanner is 40r/2s = 20
Granted this is for the long game but the general principle applies. Keeping up chems does drastically reduce the general repairs of the ship.