Author Topic: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes  (Read 111218 times)

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #90 on: October 28, 2014, 06:18:43 am »
@Michael Wittman - have something like the same case here. The only difference is that I praised this game much, and got some of my friends to say that they'll buy this game when it's on sell, as we all are quite poor. That was until the introduction of release 1.3.8. Because after that I had to tell them to wait, until you guys do something with your new "innovation". To be honest - the only reason why this people trusted me about buying this one game is, that I'm a VERY picky player and I tend not to praise anything that is frustrating to me - not because being difficult or whatever.

And I agree with Wittman, that this justifying is silly.

Honestly, I would be voting for a downgrade to patch 1.3.7, because lobbies were working QUITE well - they were not anyhow brilliant, but I prefer spending time with other players and talking with them rather than being thrown into another match, because I haven't checked one bloody radiobutton.

I was playing this game, because it was a really interesting escape from things like differential equations or discrete mathematics, it has (because it still has despite minor bugs) brilliant gameplay and very interesting in-game mechanics.

Now, everytime I cope with MM, it makes me want to forsake this game, as it makes me so frustrated, and even your masterpiece of actual gameplay DO NOT compensate it.

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2014, 06:30:50 am »
@Wundsalz

I'm not talking about hidden glicko2, I'm talking about hidden levels. (sorry I worded that badly) All the games that have progression systems show the level of the player despite the ranking used for any matchmaking.

Please no? Because I want to play with my friends. Social > pseudo-Balance* always

(The majority of my friends are of a similar skill level to me - If they're in a match where my joining throws the balance then the matchmaking has failed to create an interesting balanced game and they are infact in a pseudo-balanced lobby.)

4 kinds of lobby:

1) Novices + Novices > Fun
2) Vets + Vets > Fun
3) Novices + Vets (stacked) > Not fun for anyone
4) Novices + Vets (interspersed) > Not fun/frustrating for 50% of the people.

Matchmaking so far creates the fourth type of lobby far more often than the first or second, and once the lobby has ended and a scrambled rematch begins the lobby usually turns into the third type of lobby. If we had enough players for matchmaking to work it would be making the first or second type of lobby most often and social joining wouldn't be an issue.

Best part about level hiding? When the lobby turns into type three, none of the new-players know that its massively stacked and then they rage-quit half way through the match.
Second best part? The veterans don't notice its stacked and then don't manually balance the lobby by ship swapping causing the novices to rage-quit half way through the match.

* mixing novices and veterans because there aren't enough people to actually make balanced games.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 06:54:57 am by GeoRmr »

Offline Wundsalz

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2014, 07:00:10 am »
And I agree with Wittman, that this justifying is silly.
Where does muse state the system was good as is? I doubt anyone, neither the community, nor the devs are happy with the games current state.

Regarding the money-milker picture Wittmann paints. I think it's an outrageously unjust assessment of muses intentions. If you make such wild claims at least have the decency to bother making an argument based on reason and show us how muse now miraculously generates more money from this game. I for one don't even see remote signs they were heading into that direction.

3) Novices + Vets (stacked) > Not fun for anyone
4) Novices + Vets (interspersed) > Not fun/frustrating for 50% of the people.

Matchmaking so far creates the fourth type of lobby far more often than the first or second, and once the lobby has ended and a scrambled rematch begins the lobby usually turns into the third type of lobby. If we had enough players for matchmaking to work it would be making the first or second type of lobby most often and social joining wouldn't be an issue.
Friend-joins turn 4) lobbies into 3) lobbies. That's not a good thing. Personally I wouldn't mind idleing for a while/playing against my friends for half a match before getting picked up into the crew-formation afterwards. If it helps to improve the balance of matches, I'm willing to restrict the friend-join feature.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 07:03:59 am by Wundsalz »

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #93 on: October 28, 2014, 07:23:23 am »
You missed the point.

Offline Wundsalz

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #94 on: October 28, 2014, 07:25:35 am »
how so?

Offline Tanya Phenole

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2014, 07:36:58 am »
I believe, that level hiding is a healthy initiative. Please, remove levels from chat too.

Captain-suggested  loadouts are an amazing initiative too. Please, make it more visible for new captains. Like huge button "set loadouts" and "Give loadouts to crew" in ship customisation OR near the ready button.

For the little community and playerbase, matchmaking works fine. Really. I know about 2-3 gunners problem, but it is not that huge. Yes, people leave the game in middle, to find their fun in a different match. It is probably a good idea to motivate them to fight untill the end. Like giving a drop of small cosmetic items in the end. More kills, fires, repairs, rebuilds  - more chance for drop of something cool =)

I will not suggest the bug fixing, they have been reported multiple times and I know, that unlike other game's developers, Muse working hard on their removal at first priority.

And please, veteran players, don't be so arrogant. To Muse, to newcomers, to the game. Basically, you are only one power to improve the game or (more likely) destroy it.



Offline Schwalbe

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #96 on: October 28, 2014, 07:56:44 am »
About arrogance of veterans... I wouldn't call that arrogance. I'd rather say they are conservative. They are used to a system, that had it's flaws, but was more or less working quite well. But it was helpful in building community.

I supposed the best thing that was said about veterans' attitude was said by (I believe) KitKatKitty, some posts earlier, maybe even not in this thread (I keep losing the track, I'm sorry). They seem arrogant and hostile towards new patch because they put LOADS OF time to play it, get experience, learn it's mechanics and improve their strategies and skills. They earned level, and they sometimes boast about them - and mostly it's absolutely justified (not always however), because they spent much of their important lifetime on this game. They LOVED this game. Now they feel betrayed.

That's all I can say. Some users expressed my thoughts 'bout all this case better than me.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 08:00:41 am by Schwalbe »

Offline KitKatKitty

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #97 on: October 28, 2014, 10:48:55 am »
Quote
I supposed the best thing that was said about veterans' attitude was said by (I believe) KitKatKitty, some posts earlier, maybe even not in this thread (I keep losing the track, I'm sorry).

Yes it was this thread on page 4. It is rather long but I do think it conveys a lot of the veterans feelings and why this has became such a controversy.

Quote
I believe, that level hiding is a healthy initiative. Please, remove levels from chat too.
As much as I think it could be healthy as far as people not judging players based on their level. I don't actually think hiding the levels benefits the community nor game over all. Reasoning: It does help new players to see who has been in this game for a long time to get help and instruction from them on load outs and play styles. I've heard a lot of newer players "suggesting" load outs but aren't actually right or there are better load outs that could be taken that they haven't learned yet. Also, regardless of what people say, levels do help with figuring out how stacked a lobby will be and if Veteran players can "balance" the lobby....I do NOT think the leveling system is the problem here. So, I would suggest going back to showing the levels in game like we had during the 1.3.8 patch and BEFORE the hotfix.
I agree with geo on this.
Quote
3) Novices + Vets (stacked) > Not fun for anyone
4) Novices + Vets (interspersed) > Not fun/frustrating for 50% of the people.
We have all seen it happen many times before.

As far as the actual problem for these patches, the matchmaking system
Quote
For the little community and playerbase, matchmaking works fine.
I'm not sure how you can think it "works fine" with our small community. I actually feel like playing in game with you soon to see if when you match make it's better than the experiences myself and many others have had.
Quote
Honestly, I would be voting for a downgrade to patch 1.3.7, because lobbies were working QUITE well - they were not anyhow brilliant, but I prefer spending time with other players and talking with them rather than being thrown into another match, because I haven't checked one bloody radiobutton.
At this point, I might agree. I wouldn't mind having the lobby system that was in 1.3.7 (since I hadn't seen a problem with it before) BUT keep the Captain recommended load outs AND the new leveling system from 1.3.8. (not 1.3.8 hotfix).
As it stands if I'm playing with 4+ friends or clan mates, we are just using custom lobbies because in the que our wait time has been 18mins, 21mins, 28mins, and 23mins. We could have played a match or 2 by then and it allows us to balance our own lobbies.

Quote
that unlike other game's developers, Muse working hard on their removal at first priority.
I completely agree with this statement! Muse is an amazing game developer which is why so many Veterans care soooo much.

Offline macmacnick

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #98 on: October 28, 2014, 11:02:30 am »
We give harsh criticisms BECAUSE WE CARE! If we didn't care, we'd be saying "meh." And walking away.

Offline Keyvias

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #99 on: October 28, 2014, 11:31:30 am »
Despite the heated comments from both sides I have no doubt everyone here's goal is a great Guns of Icarus.

A quick side note, have you guys seen Omniraptor's idea.
We've been talking about it around the office this morning as a way to push more people into queue thus creating better matches while still letting fun rounds keep going.

Would love to hear everyone's thoughts.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 11:37:01 am by Keyvias »

Offline KitKatKitty

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #100 on: October 28, 2014, 11:38:48 am »
Keyvais I will respond to that on that thread as to make things easier.

Offline TeddyBearMafia

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #101 on: October 28, 2014, 04:09:53 pm »
Aight, here's my perspective as a newish vet (played since may, have about 700 games played, about 60-70% as captain).

1. I have played with a lot of novice crews, and I find that with novice crews some builds are unplayable - i.e. mobula. Now, I have actually taught completely new players how to crew a mobula in a 3v3 and been successful, but that takes substantial effort from me as a captain that I'm not ALWAYS willing to put in. So point one is that the matchmaking system is likely to increase the amount of explaining and teaching that I have to do by virtue of low playerbase as has been mentioned in this thread so far.

2. I am more willing to teach and talk to new players if
       (1) they are responsive and listen, and
       (2) I have someone else to help me with the process.
    For example, last night KitKatKitty and I flew a Galleon with a newbie bot deck and kept the build the same through a number of games to give the new players some experience playing with the same build over and over - and it was far easier with two experienced players willing to guide than just me. I find that when I am alone as a vet on a ship with a new crew of which even one person is unresponsive, I am instantly uninclined to put time into guiding or playing cooperatively with the people on my ship.

3. I prefer transparency to misdirection. I totally understand about how player dynamics work with regard to seeing levels and feeling instantly dispirited, and I can see the perspective from the other side. The problem here is that the illusion is really hard to maintain with a low player-base like what we have. Thus, I prefer not to be treated like I'm an idiot and don't understand what's going on with regard to matchmaking. It's clearly the most conventionally fun to play with a perfectly oiled crew, and everyone loves winning, which leads me too...

4. I don't mind losing, as long as people are having a good time. When I'm losing and people are communicative, even if they're all novices, I don't mind nearly as much. We're having fun, we're shooting guns, we're crashing into things... it might be exasperating getting blown up, but we all know why that's happening. When no one communicates, I feel like the game is a chore. And the thing that glicko2 definitely doesn't measure is how communicative someone is feeling at any point in time. But I guess that's just a fact we're going to have to live with in terms of any matchmaking system for a team game.

So, am I disappointed with some of the changes? Yes - but I suppose I can chalk some of that up to conservatism. Still, I would highlight the points I've noted above as an indication that my experience with the game hasn't fundamentally changed from before the matchmaking system was introduced, with the exception that I'm being called upon to teach more often than I have previously. And that has been stressful, and difficult, and often frustrating to the point of not wanting to play any more that day.

Just my thoughts.

Offline Michael Wittmann

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #102 on: October 28, 2014, 07:51:19 pm »
Where does muse state the system was good as is? I doubt anyone, neither the community, nor the devs are happy with the games current state. Read through the first few pages of this thread you will see

Regarding the money-milker picture Wittmann paints. I think it's an outrageously unjust assessment of muses intentions. If you make such wild claims at least have the decency to bother making an argument based on reason and show us how muse now miraculously generates more money from this game. I for one don't even see remote signs they were heading into that direction. This update is for coop, that much has been confirmed. Coop is to bring in tons of money due to it will be newb friendly rather than catering to the core gamers who have kept this game alive for two years. If you can keep the newbies playing a little longer you will make more money than  catering the same 300 people playing every day

Keep in mind this is the second time I have been hoodwinked by devs who claim one thing but do another. I learned my lesson on fighting the powers that be. No good will come from it but a swift ban. If you cannot see this then you are blinded my friends. You will see it when workshop starts pushing out bronie skins and the devs catch on and collect the top ten best workshops and make them DLC for a quarter each. Mark My WORDS. The day of reckoning is upon us.

Offline Wundsalz

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #103 on: October 29, 2014, 03:59:34 am »
This update is for coop, that much has been confirmed.
Has it now? Frankly I'm a bit baffled by said confirmation, which I must have missed, as the match making systems tries to match players versus players. So far I've assumed the systems reusability (the most evil thing ever) for a PvE game would be rather limited.
Sure, muse focuses on pushing their new project forward in general, which is a reasonable thing to do as they won't be able to live on GoIO:PvP alone forever, but as I see it, this particular patch for GoIO:PvP is, well a patch for GoIO:PvP. Loadout-recommendation feature, better tutorials, an improved minimap, a lot of bug fixes - all things which improve GoIO:PvP... 2 years after the release.
The match-making system is motivated by GoIO:PvPs needs as well - it's supposed to address a problem GoIO has got since its release: stacked lobbies. Obviously the system has got its flaws which unfortunately currently overshadow it's benefits and the other improvements which have been introduced with this patch.

Keep in mind this is the second time I have been hoodwinked by devs who claim one thing but do another. I learned my lesson on fighting the powers that be. No good will come from it but a swift ban. If you cannot see this then you are blinded my friends. You will see it when workshop starts pushing out bronie skins and the devs catch on and collect the top ten best workshops and make them DLC for a quarter each. Mark My WORDS. The day of reckoning is upon us.
I care little for your delusions. Scribble your reckoning prophecies on a sign and proclaim them running through the street naked if you must, but don't expect me to lend you an ear.
Regarding your fears of getting banned for critizism you can safely ease up though. Muse has got a history of taking criticism on the chin, more so they try to work things out rather than ignoring it. I recommend this article as it grants some insight on muses attitude and mind set when it comes to interaction with their customers. You really don't do justice to them here.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 04:03:17 am by Wundsalz »

Offline Schwalbe

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Re: Version 1.3.8 Hotfix Release Notes
« Reply #104 on: October 29, 2014, 04:56:22 am »
@TeddyBearMafia - the truth has been once more spoken, only to be left unnoticed by those who are in power. And that's sad, because as far as live tought me - only spitting unjustified hatred is being noticed...