Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => News and Announcements => Release Notes => Topic started by: Grixis on October 27, 2014, 06:09:47 am
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Our Charity Webpage (http://gunsoficarus.com/anniversary-charity-tournament/) is live and you can keep up to date on the casters records and winnings for some great causes.
With the introduction of Matchmaking we fundamentally changed how the game is played. We appreciate all the feedback we received and will continue doing our best to improve the system in every way we can. If you’d like to share your thoughts and experiences the best way to contact us is by email at feedback@musegames.com.
Changes:
-Your current level is now linked to your name in chat so you can show off your level in global, clan, and match chat.
-Match levels are no longer shown except for the ship you are currently on. Since player level doesn’t often show a good snapshot of player skill nor balance; to reduce confusion we’ve stopped showing player levels on other ships as the system bases balance on your hidden glicko rating.
-Rematch will now always scramble from matchmade matches. We’ve added back in the ability to swap ships between sides so each team has to agree to refight the same battle.
Fixes:
-Velcro is gone!
-Changes pilot, gunner, and engineer to crew and captain to reflect ship roles better in matchmaker.
-Low quality textures on allied ships on match end screen.
-Invisible wall on Canyon.
-Misplaced wind on low altitude in 3v3 Firnfeld.
-Unable to see allies on respawn map.
-Ghost ship on map
-Ship unable to spawn
-Ships spawning in the same location inside of one another
-Match start timer disappearing
-Win/Lose streak display bug
-Can now click on player names in crew form.
-Arbitrary insta-gib rams removed
-Smoke particles have returned
-Achievements linked to Water Hazard and Fight on Firnfeld now work on 2v2 and 3v3
-text no longer overlaps if too many friends are in the same match
-Gunning AI crew no longer disappearing on Squid
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-Match levels are no longer shown except for the ship you are currently on. Since player level doesn’t often show a good snapshot of player skill nor balance; to reduce confusion we’ve stopped showing player levels on other ships as the system bases balance on your hidden glicko rating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZxzJGgox_E
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAT15I-QnBY
Edit: I'm not downloading this - I have limited internet transfer per month, so I'll wait for a real hotfix.
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We appreciate all the feedback we received and will continue doing our best to improve the system in every way we can. If you’d like to share your thoughts and experiences the best way to contact us is by email at feedback@musegames.com.
As far as I know, NOBODY ASKED YOU TO DO THE FOLLOWING:
Changes:
-Your current level is now linked to your name in chat so you can show off your level in global, clan, and match chat.
-Match levels are no longer shown except for the ship you are currently on. Since player level doesn’t often show a good snapshot of player skill nor balance; to reduce confusion we’ve stopped showing player levels on other ships as the system bases balance on your hidden glicko rating.
Fixes:
-Changes pilot, gunner, and engineer to crew and captain to reflect ship roles better in matchmaker.
Way to go revising the levelling system and then removing it. If you're not going to show them get them out of the game completley - oh no noobs are upset that they're being match-made with vets who are "bad at the game" - oh wait, its just because the player base is so small they get stuck in any lobby with anyone, the glicko has sweet fa to do with it.
I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY AS A FUCKING ENGINEER - BRING BACK SEPARATE CLASS MATCHMAKING.
I DID NOT PUT OVER 5000 HOURS OF MY LIFE INTO THIS GAME FOR YOU TO HIDE MY LEVELS.
THIS IS TERRIBLE - DO! NOT! WANT!
I don't even know muse, I don't, even, know.
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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^ Sir, you have my salute.
Then I suggest deleting levels whatsoever
Deleting all the ships
Giving everyone a rifle
And we'll have the CoD Muse wants.
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You also did a sloppy half arsed job at hiding the levels - you didn't even move the username to fill up the space. good job.
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I can't even imagine, how the fuck such stupid ideas can come to one's mind. I'm no expert, but I can't understand the point of all these bloody changes, making a game unplayable. It's not just a normal butthurt - it's justified butthurt. I consider myself a noob, and just can't fucking stand what you guys are doing around here.
I'm a game developer myself, and when I think about what the blood-soaked hell is going around here lately, only one thing comes to my mind - you screwed your job on the stage of prototype-testing, or even worse, on the stage of prototype.
Why I say this? Because for me it looks like you did not applied the most reasonable solution (by which I mean merging matchmaking WITH normal access to lobbies, and not giving matchmaking higher priority) because you haven't considered it on the stage of prototype, and built the whole module so sloppy you haven't left easy backend access to implement it this way.
Pardon both my language and grammar - english is not my native language, and it's even harder to express my thoughts because I'M ABSOLUTELY LIVID.
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Why I say this? Because for me it looks like you did not applied the most reasonable solution (by which I mean merging matchmaking WITH normal access to lobbies, and not giving matchmaking higher priority) because you haven't considered it on the stage of prototype, and built the whole module so sloppy you haven't left easy backend access to implement it this way.
Worst part is - we even told them not to get rid of the match list.
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In the mean time, why haven't you fixed the goldifsh sails yet? Its pretty integral for team identification.
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Worst part is - we even told them not to get rid of the match list.
And Muse was like
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/03/03d4e03e48166e1595c783db787bf6adf760e23faaf914f8ace431dd3cfe1bae.jpg)
Also - the level is hidden to your allies but it is viewed to everyone when someone writes on match chat? So... what's the point actually?
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Why I say this? Because for me it looks like you did not applied the most reasonable solution (by which I mean merging matchmaking WITH normal access to lobbies, and not giving matchmaking higher priority) because you haven't considered it on the stage of prototype, and built the whole module so sloppy you haven't left easy backend access to implement it this way.
Worst part is - we even told them not to get rid of the match list.
By prototype I mean something which is faaar far before pre-alpha, when you code the small module of the game and test it, whether it works or not. You can throw it away if not, or correct it / leave it intact.
Edit:
Dear Muse,
I am noob, and I think you made this game unplayable, which serves NOBODY, excluding yer own ego.
Yours sincerely
Stupid Newbie Who Owned This Game A Month Ago, And Liked It Despite Its Flaws.
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...Shall I get the petitions out? And as stated before, muse should have used this stupid matchmaking crap to replace quick join. ("quick play") wend kept in the match list. The list most likely would not have eaten up as many resources if there were less people making matches on it. (Maybe adding a click to refresh button would also have saved some resources due to the client not needing to send refresh requests to the server all the time.)
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...I suppose that this sounds reasonable. But I bet none of them would listen to a polite request like that.
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-Your current level is now linked to your name in chat so you can show off your level in global, clan, and match chat.
Can't one just click on the name of the person in the chat? Is that so hard that you decided to add the levels directly to the chat, even though levels still don't mean the world?
-Match levels are no longer shown except for the ship you are currently on. Since player level doesn’t often show a good snapshot of player skill nor balance; to reduce confusion we’ve stopped showing player levels on other ships as the system bases balance on your hidden glicko rating.
So in order for one to "show off" their level you decided to just remove them? Well ok, but what's the point in hiding the level when you show it in the chat again? And how can one not see the levels by clicking on their name to view their levels?
I think somebody didn't think that one through.
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So here's some memes I made regarding 1.3.8 + hotfix
(https://i.imgflip.com/dioxo.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/dioxo)
(https://i.imgflip.com/dipek.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)
(https://i.imgflip.com/dipgx.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)
(https://i.imgflip.com/dipja.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)
(https://i.imgflip.com/dipu1.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator) (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)
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^ Here, grab my salute
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-Invisible wall on Canyon.
I wondered where the invisible wall went. I am glad you added it back to the game.
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Is this really what people here have become? The once lovely community whom actually discussed things intelligently now turning into the same ol'-every-game spewing of unfiltered hate posts and meme pic spewing?
Really dudes, really?
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Well memes were unnecessary but seriously... this is just riddiculous.
Don't worry, I probably won't be long in this community, not after this...
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Because when it was "lovely" and polite, nobody cared 'bout what some of us were saying. I haven't so far stumbled upon a match where matchmaking was considered a POSITIVE thing.
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Is this really what people here have become? The once lovely community whom actually discussed things intelligently now turning into the same ol'-every-game spewing of unfiltered hate posts and meme pic spewing?
Really dudes, really?
Is this what the devs have really become? The once lovely team whom actually listened to feedback and did what people wanted in order to better their game now turning into the same ol'-every-game-development-team of we know best and ignoring the feedback?
Really muse, really?
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GeoRMR, this should depict your post perfectly:
(https://i.imgflip.com/dip6j.jpg)
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Less memes, and more actual feedback guys. I can understand frustration, but putting it up as you are isn't going to help anything. Thanks.
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The replies in this thread are pretty disappointing. At least we can have the comfort of knowing that these 3 people can never claim to represent the community as a whole.
Muse has worked hard to make matchmaking work and they've previously explained at length why it's absolutely necessary for GOIO's future. While there are some problems with the latest (major) patch it's introduced some nice features while pulling matchmaking off better than we might have expected. The matchlist still exists so long as you have a decent sized friendslist so there is little cause for frustration with matchmaking, so it's easy to sidestep the system if you really dislike it.
The hiding levels is an interesting step and I think it may be a good idea. Yes it wasn't really a demanded feature but it does address a problem which I found reasonably significant in the games I've played - games often look predetermined in the lobby due to huge levelgaps that turn out not to be such a big deal once the game has started. I don't think the minor ego boost of being able to show off your 45-45 is anything like big enough a deal to justify this kind of tantrum, Geo.
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Because when it was "lovely" and polite, nobody cared 'bout what some of us were saying. I haven't so far stumbled upon a match where matchmaking was considered a POSITIVE thing.
I'm sorry but you've been here for what... two, three weeks? Pretty sure you have don't really have much to talk about how the forums or game was in the past.
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Just came out of a really stacked game where an entire team rage quit and dc'd
I can only assume this is because they were not aware they were against crew formed team of veterans before the game started due to lack of any visual indicator. (levels)
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I'm talking about previous monday, when the new update came out. And I tell from the experience of last week, when this patch is on. And I REALLY haven't seen a player to say "Wow, this matchmaking thing is good!"; only "Jesus, what is this crap? I can't do this, this and this. Why this is working like that? It's unlogical/uncomfortable."
I came here for last two week of lobbies, and honestly? I had nothing against manually looking for a match, it was faster, it was easy. Now most options are rather not transparent, unintuitive. I CAN see reasons behind some of the changes, but mostly they are poorly implemented. And I have to tell you, that despite being rather not giving up person, I ragequited few times because of how matchmaker put me.
Is it understood?
The fact that I'm around here for a month doesn't mean I speak mindlessly. Only grammar incorrectly.
Give me 4 hours, and I'll give you cold-headed analysis of what I consider stupid/crappy/not working. So far, I have to pass coming test at University, pardon me.
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Because when it was "lovely" and polite, nobody cared 'bout what some of us were saying. I haven't so far stumbled upon a match where matchmaking was considered a POSITIVE thing.
I'm sorry but you've been here for what... two, three weeks? Pretty sure you have don't really have much to talk about how the forums or game was in the past.
I thought muses most used excuse to ignore the feedback from veterans is because they need to consider that of the novice player also.
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Just came out of a really stacked game where an entire team rage quit and dc'd
I can only assume this is because they were not aware they were against crew formed team of veterans before the game started due to lack of any visual indicator. (levels)
This happened all the time pre-matchmaking as well. Not sure what your point is.
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My point is that hiding levels has achieved nothing. (if only to confuse people more/increase the chance of ragequitting mid match rather than looking for a new lobby to escape a stack) I thought this was valid feedback.
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I think the concerns brought up are valid. With all the big changes to leveling and matchmaking, it might take a few passes to get things integrated in a way that make sense to everyone.
I think the big thing mentioned was about hiding levels in the match, but showing them in the global/match chat. The first part was done because matches are not set based upon your level, but are based on your hidden rating. However, most players were assuming that it was based upon level. So going into a match with some level 10's against some level 30's seems awkwardly stacked, when it's actually fairly balanced.
I'm not as sure about the levels in the chat, but it's probably just a nice way of letting players show off their rank.
Now that there's the crew/captain instead of individual classes does not mean you have to play as an engineer if you don't want, as much as you don't have to play as a gunner. You should still be able to choose your class just fine.
And of course there's always the Custom Game option to view a version of the match list. You can still join up with friends or make your own lobby and such. We did this for the SCS as well.
Remember to keep it civil on the forums. We love the feedback, both positive and negative.
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I'm talking about previous monday, when the new update came out. And I tell from the experience of last week, when this patch is on. And I REALLY haven't seen a player to say "Wow, this matchmaking thing is good!"; only "Jesus, what is this crap? I can't do this, this and this. Why this is working like that? It's unlogical/uncomfortable."
I came here for last two week of lobbies, and honestly? I had nothing against manually looking for a match, it was faster, it was easy. Now most options are rather not transparent, unintuitive. I CAN see reasons behind some of the changes, but mostly they are poorly implemented. And I have to tell you, that despite being rather not giving up person, I ragequited few times because of how matchmaker put me.
Is it understood?
The fact that I'm around here for a month doesn't mean I speak mindlessly. Only grammar incorrectly.
Give me 4 hours, and I'll give you cold-headed analysis of what I consider stupid/crappy/not working. So far, I have to pass coming test at University, pardon me.
Actually my comment was referring to you talking about how no one paid attention to us when everything was "lovely", something, considering your recent joining of the game and forums, you wouldn't have much frame of reference to.
Anyways, Thomas, I think feedback is great too...
... when it's relevant and not just a bunch of nitpicking or irrational hatred.
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It is NOT balanced. I can tell you from the ACTUAL game experience. It ALWAYS comes to a MASSACRE.
I have no idea, how ship with crew 27-31-28-43 against crew of 4-1-1-7 can be BALANCED. I haven't took the screen, and that's my bad, I see.
I tried to start the custom game - nobody even popped in. I waited around, I don't know. Twenty minutes.
I won't even try to comment crew/captain thing. It's not going to happen. Really.
We tried to keep it civilised way on forum, you just never heard what old players and some newer ones were saying waiting for a game.
Edit: Imagine, yes, I KNOW what you were talking about. I just EXPLAINED to you what I mean, and you still seem not even try to understand.
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This is not the place for directed aggression
We can have this discussion peacefully. If you have a reply to a specific person, please make sure your reply is constructive and discussive (that's not a word) - asking and answering questions, not accusing. My thoughts on the matter aside, I hate to see people fighting - especially over a medium as easily misconstrued as the internet.
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Well right now we're using the glicko 2 rating system, as far as I'm aware. (And I could very well be wrong)
This is mostly based on win/loss against your opponents rating. However, this means that you need to play matches to start earning your rating. The more matches you play, the more accurate the matchmaking system will become.
Then of course there's the crew formation. For instance if an entire competitive team forms a crew and hops into the matchmaking, it's going to be nearly impossible for the system to create a fair match for them, since it would take another competitive team of relatively equal skill level doing the same crew form and matchmaking around the same time. So just about any match they're put into is going to be skewed heavily. However, due to this, it shouldn't affect either teams glicko 2 rating in a significant way. Trying to balance the matches while still giving players the features they want is difficult. It would be much easier to remove the crew formation and joining on friends to create a much more balanced matchmaking system, but at the same time we don't want players to lose the ability to play with their friends.
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Let me put it like this, using the Western (for us - regular) logic born from Aristotle in Ancient Greece.
Thesis: Experience is important part of player capabilities during match
What do I mean:
Experience - the knowledge based on matches played and various situations that occured during plays, the knowledge of different loadouts and the practical knowledge (from "you can hit middle engine on pyra from below" to "you can hit middle engine on galleon from below") or skills that are motory/practice based (for example shooting, especially with weapons that are hard to shoot like h.flak, hwacha with heavy on mid/long distance etc.). Also situational knowledge like "I have 4 stacks on hull which has 30% of life - should I put it out or mallet it?".
Experience =/= skill per se
The indicator of experience is player level. After 1.3.8 it should be more accurate than ever before.
The Thesis must be true (1) or not-true (0).
If Thesis is True and experience is important:
-Hiding player level makes the system pointless
-Limitations to viewing player levels are also pointless
-Player level may be partially valid indicator of players' skill (therefore it should be visible and maybe considered by matchmaker)
If Thesis is False and experience is not important (or its' importance is so small that it doesn't make much difference):
-The whole institution of 'player level' is pointless and should be deleted or be only visible for the player him/herself and no one another
-If level doesn't matter there's no difference between showing it or no apart from subjective judgement of an observator
-Therefore the system should be simple. The current change is complifying the system without anything to offer.
Now let me give you a few reasons why I think the Thesis is true:
-Most low-lvl and mid-lvl engineers use fire extinguisher instead of chemical spray. Using chemical spray has of course higher skill requirements but also experience requirements.
-As I wrote before - knowledge of tactics, combos, loadouts, maps, chem routes, weapon recoils, ships makes more experienced players superior to less experienced in ANY matter.
-Knowledge of "game creed" - knowing importance of communications and finding your place on a ship also makes more experienced players perform better. Many times I heard that cooperation in this game is OP.
-Performing challenging tasks - more experienced players to gain their level had to do something special (achievements). I believe that a guy who managed to win 7 Anglean Riders without dying is more reliable (at least) than the one who didn't (yet?).
From my experienced in 1.3.7 the level of player was pretty much valid indicator of his/her skills.
I strongly believe that the leveling system from 1.3.8 should work just the same as the one from 1.3.7. No "there you can see it, there you can't" or other siliness.
I may not be right but this is my case, and I will probably not change my mind about this.
Another thing: Schwalbe is actually a friend of mine and before he got GOIO I used to tell him about community and problems.
Geo made a very good point - when I see the levels I can enter the lobby and decide whether I want to stay here or not. You may say that matchmaking works and I shouldn't be bothered by levels - well from my experience with matchmaking it doesn't work (as intented). Most of the lobbies I end up to ends up with scores like 5:0, 5:1 etc. Also as someone said in other thread - games may be more or less balanced but every player (even Schwalbe) knows what a pain in the ass it is to fly with someone with lvl 1 or sth like that. People may win games like that and be really frustrated about the game. And I truly DON'T believe that ANY lvl1 may be as good as lvl20-ish. I'm not buying that. As Schwalbe said, I too rarely meet people who are actually happy about matchmaking.
About the custom game list - I actually have like 50-ish friends on my friend list. I only add people who I managed to play a few games with on the same crew and I'm happy to be and play with them. Saying "Yeah, you can have your old server list, just add 200 people to friends" is no solution at all and barely an argument. It's like saying "Well you can dig out a tunnel with a teaspoon, you just need 30 years to do it". Also - if custom game list works just the same as server list (but in a LIMITED way) then why not add just a server list as an optional lobby creation/searching choice than matchmaking?
I think the hiding levels thing is another example of Muse catering to greenhorns rather than veterans. Because it protects greenhorns from their low status (for a short amount of time) but also "protects" them from any advices more experienced players may give. It protects noobs from veterans, but veterans can't protect themselves from noobs APART from password games. And many experienced players say that pub matches are terrible and if you want a good game you have to go as far away as you can from pubs. And it's true. Muse doesn't protect its' veterans and veterans will be lost one after another.
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I think the argument against hiding levels is a valid one and it is a discussion that should happen. But this torrent of hostility is damaging the cause against these patch changes. Keep things civil and maybe some good can come out of it.
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Hey Guys,
So let me talk on hiding the levels and let me be frank.
They're wrong and they make players wrong.
The number one weakness of our matchmaking system, the thing that hurts balance the most, is players leaving. Levels also match matches appear unfair that aren't. Being 45 doesn't make you good at the game, being 37, 22, or 11 doesn't make you good at the game, but since they were the only information people had so they used them. When a player leaves a match it forces the matchmaker to scramble and grab whatever player it can to fill the slot oftentimes at the expense of balance.
I am sure many of you know that rating and level do not correlate and many mid range players are much higher rated than their high level counter parts, but many players don't know this. They take that number and look at it as gospel for the balance of the match, which it very much is not.
Yes we will be making leaderboards with the correct information and they are on their way. In the meantime though, we don't want bad information to spoil matches.
We talked about removing it all together except for some key points:
-Players like showing off level
-It is still good to see if you have a low level on your ship
As for greenhorn vs vet:
Greenhorns don't leave matches. Stats-wise it's the higher level player that will ditch the match more often than not. Their level isn't hidden from their crew though so even if they're a level the captain is not comfortable with he will know and can plan accordingly.
As a general perspective:
1.3.7 and before we got emails weekly on imbalanced matches, second pilots joining mid game, games taking 20 minutes to start, and tens of other issues that we tried to tackle here.
There are three pillars to any match system flexibility, speed, and balance.
Match list is max flexibility with 0 balance and 0 speed.
We tried to make a matchmaker and keeping many of the legacy elements from the match list like friend join, no penalty leaving, rematch, and custom games tried to give the quickest, most balanced, experience while retaining as much flexibility as possible.
We did this so vets would get faster better games, we did this so newbies would get faster better games.
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Well, you have that nice little disclaimer at the bottom of every lobby.
So can we display the levels again please?
People that use levels to judge other players are still using them as bias - the only difference now is they have to click on everyones name. Or - just wait for them to type? What's the logic behind adding the level to the name in text chat?
So far as a vet I've not experienced any "better" games due to matchmaking, nor any that started particularly faster. I did experience an (enjoyable) 28 minute long queue waiting for the matchmaker to sort me today. Its so much better sitting in silence alone than when I was able to talk to other players waiting for a lobby to start...
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Sorry, just another question:
Why did you bother putting in so much time and effort redesigning the progression system only to disown it as "wrong" and consider removing it completely?
I'm still of the firm opinion that a glicko2 rating is irrelevant when it comes to this team based game and that the systems mechanical definition of a "better" player based on win/loss is probably as far from an accurate representation of skill as the progression system.
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Yes we will be making leaderboards with the correct information and they are on their way. In the meantime though, we don't want bad information to spoil matches.
We talked about removing it all together except for some key points:
-Players like showing off level
-It is still good to see if you have a low level on your ship
Matches played might be an interesting alternative as well. Level - and more so matches played are an indicator for experience (note the difference to skill) after all. It helps to evaluate whether it might be worth to show someone the ropes - and which ones (basics like "this is a spanner, whack red stuff with it" or less known repair tricks like "Did you know you can repair the Galleons main engine from below?").
As for greenhorn vs vet:
Greenhorns don't leave matches. Stats-wise it's the higher level player that will ditch the match more often than not. Their level isn't hidden from their crew though so even if they're a level the captain is not comfortable with he will know and can plan accordingly.
do you refer to leaves during the lobby phase or during the airship-minigame phase? I'd really be surprised by the latter, because vets tend to have a rather high match completion rates. The former wouldn't surprise me at all, as I'm picky with which lobbies to play myself and until you stop putting me into matches as 2nd or 3rd gunner or try to balance a horribly stacked lobby with me that won't change.
We tried to make a matchmaker and keeping many of the legacy elements from the match list like friend join, no penalty leaving, rematch
Frankly I think you've been a bit to clingy on some legacy elements which inhibit match-making.
[we] tried to give the quickest, most balanced, experience while retaining as much flexibility as possible.
Flexibility (stuff like friend-lobby-joins) and quickness (match-making giving elapsed wait time a huge weight in the algorithm) influence balance negatively and vice versa. Personally I'd like to see balance prioritized more at the cost of the other two goals. I'm sure opinions differ here and especially on the flexibility part I don't think it's possible to shift the focus more to balance without pissing off those who prefer flexibility. However regarding quickness I think you can cater both parties: Those who like to hop into matches asap and those who prefer waiting a couple of matches to play with people on par with oneself against people on par with oneself. You could allow the user to set a preference in the options (e.g. a thresholds for maximum glicko-rating standard deviation in a match and/or allow the user to alter a wait-time coefficient in the algorithm).
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I'm still of the firm opinion that a glicko2 rating is irrelevant when it comes to this team based game and that the systems mechanical definition of a "better" player based on win/loss is probably as far from an accurate representation of skill as the progression system.
I said it multiple times. I can be best engineer in the world but with captain lvl3 I won't do much.
As I stated above level measures experience and although experience =/= skill per se it's still really important. And no, I won't play with two lvl1's in my crew. Nuh-uh, not gonna happen.
As for greenhorn vs vet:
Greenhorns don't leave matches. Stats-wise it's the higher level player that will ditch the match more often than not. Their level isn't hidden from their crew though so even if they're a level the captain is not comfortable with he will know and can plan accordingly.
They do, but during game. And as I said - I won't be playing with lvl1's because it's frustrating. I don't mind the mediocre players around lvl20 (if they listen to advice) but being a nanny over second engineer and having your gunner loading lochnagar to gatlings is no fun AT ALL, and therefore when I see players with that low level I prefer to leave the lobby.
Match list is max flexibility with 0 balance and 0 speed.
I disagree. Lobbies may be unbalanced at first but after time they go to some average, either weaker players leave and lobby goes stronger or the other way. I've had very balanced and very quick games in 1.3.7 and I had very unbalanced and slow to find games in 1.3.8. From my perspective it's no evolution here. Also since 1.3.8 I have been in 3v3 lobby... once. Literally once although I always check the 3v3 thingy. I even made the thread about game modes and sizes that will be forever forgotten...
Some compromise may be two separate system. The custom games as in 1.3.7 and the matchmaker with all the restrictions you need to make games balanced. I think it's the best solution (apart from trashing matchmaking entirely, but I assume this is not agreeable by Muse :D)
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@Geo
It's wrong in the form of balance or skill.
Is it good for showing how much you've played? You bet. Is it a good way to reward players with items, definitely.
As far as glicko2, it's pretty spot on for how a game will go. For the past 6 months we've been able to predict winners with frightful regularity based solely on glicko2 score. We've put this system in-game behind the scenes keeping track of you to test it long before we made it a part of the game.
If you're using crew form or friend join for a majority of your matches it's possible you're not seeing the most balanced games though they will be unbalanced towards you if you avoid the matchmaker (and you're high glicko score), but overall the matches are more balanced, meaning each side has a better chance of victory.
@Wundsalz
You can still see the levels of your crew on your ship. Just in case you get a newbie we didn't want to leave you in the dark on it.
Yeah for the leaving on vets, I was talking about lobbies. As far as second gunner that was in the match list as well, you'll need to ask people to change or use the recommended loadout captains tool on them.
As far as the legacy elements, let us know which ones you don't like or don't need and let us know. We're happy to free up matchmaker to make faster more balanced games.
I agree on balance being priority, but a lot of feedback both from in-game and in-testing pushed towards speed and flexibility. We're still investigating this though and doing some behind the scenes changes to the algorithm to be a bit more aggressive on balance.
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@ Mr.Disaster
Let's say you're in the top 2% of the glicko2 score. Your ability to win consistently in many situations makes you a high rated player. Let's say you matchmake and there are 20 people in the queue and all the other games are either full or in-progress. In this situation you'll be match with probably the lesser players on your side to make the match as close to fair as possible. Does this mean you'll lose more than if you could join any lobby and find one with a more favorable situation? It does.
You can't have balance and be a very good player and not be match with lower allies (when you don't crew form or friend join.) Mathematically, it just doesn't work.
You can disagree on balance, but we've been running the numbers for months, there was a whole bunch of terrible balance pretty consistently.
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I'm still of the firm opinion that a glicko2 rating is irrelevant when it comes to this team based game and that the systems mechanical definition of a "better" player based on win/loss is probably as far from an accurate representation of skill as the progression system.
I disagree with this. Considering the complexity of GoIO I think treating the player as a blackbox is the way to go. Glicko2 is a well established standard which yields good results for other games so I don't see why it shouldn't work for us. Sure- especially with a low match-count the rating will lack accuracy and precision, but still, even in this case, it will yield a rough estimation which is better than anything else we've got so far.
As far as the legacy elements, let us know which ones you don't like or don't need and let us know.
Features that hurt balance
Rematch
Crew Form
Friend Join
Ship/slot swapping
Spectator swapping
Lobby leaving without penalty
Custom matches
Server Location
Speed of matchmaker
If there are any things here that you don't think are vital definitely let me know.
Rematch - I don't need this
Crew Form - I want this. Let me play with friends!
Friend Join - crew form should be sufficient
Ship/slot swapping - no, this blatantly contradicts the goal of matchmaking. Get rid of obsolete features please! I'd rather like to have one working system than 2 which inhibit each other --edit-- Intra-team swaps should be fine though
Spectator swapping - what's spectator swapping?
Lobby leaving without penalty - If matchmaking would be able to reliably place me into balanced matches with a low skill deviation, I wouldn't mind a penalty for leaving a lobby. However as long as you place me into ships as a second gunner and/or try balance a rookies vs. mediocre players matches with me, I'd prefer to have the option to say no to your systems silly suggestions.
Custom matches - those are necessary for scrims, cws and other events. They should not be integrated into the match making system.
Server Location - I only want to play on US and EU servers.
Speed of matchmaker - I don't mind waiting a minute or two... or 5-10 if that ensures I'll be fielded with good players against good players.
In order to make match-making work, the match making system needs to be in charge of matching players for matches.
Currently there are a lot of elements which completely undermine match-making. This corrodes the system to a degree that it's not able to fulfill its purpose - personally I don't see a major difference between the current match-making and the quick-play button we've had a while back.
If we want to make matchmaking work, the system needs to be restrictive - just take a look around what other games with matchmaking do! Many mobas have got a way larger player base and only need to match 10 players which are sort of on par, rather than 16 which are needed for GoIO. Still they restrict the size or pre-made parties and regard them as THE major problem which prevents balanced matches (see Smite matchmaking (http://www.reddit.com/r/Smite/comments/1m6zfi/how_smite_matchmaking_works/)).
I doubt a proper matchmaking is possible unless the players "flexibility" is restricted. That being said I'm not comfortable with relying on the matchmaking system entirely until some infancy problems are resolved - multiple gunner matching, and the insane skill deviation (lvl<10+lvl45 captain vs. 2 lvl 30ish captains[Remark: As the debate poped up here: read this as "shitty glicko2-rating + good rating vs. 2 mediocre ratings" I'm talking about skill and just used levels here because, unlike the glicko2 rating, it's accessible ingame-information]) in particular.
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You can't have balance and be a very good player and not be match with lower allies (when you don't crew form or friend join.) Mathematically, it just doesn't work.
Yes, it does. Mathematically speaking you want to minimize the standard deviation of the players glicko 2 rating in a lobby
I'm not sure whether you've considered this problem at all, but I convinced you didn't address it sufficiently. I don't mind carrying some dead-weight from time to time, but having to do so all the time, because you want to balance the lobbies with vets isn't a fun for the vets.
Depending on the vets mood and the novice players attitude the experience for the novice player will range from an enjoyable learning-session to a rant-and-insult-session. Unfortunately the latter scenario will likely occur more frequently. That's not good for either side.
related post (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4405.msg75094.html#msg75094)
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Before I state anything, I would like to apologize for my behavior. I know I shouldn't act this way, but I'm a hot headed tough basterd, who suffers from ADHD, and I sometimes have problems to hold myself from attack ( my mother's legacy, long story ) - especially when I'm angry enough to feel urge to kill impossible to tame.
I see many long posts, and people trying to argue about... things. It's good, of course, this helps to develop some diplomatic skills and so on...
But. Let me ask you a question.
How many of you (I mean, Muse DEVELOPERS) played your game?
You know, with intentions to analyze "how it works in real world" rather than, I mean - cold-blooded, neutral analysis after getting rid with all the emotions and beliefs about "how hard I worked to achieve this and that goal" and just make some in-game observing?
I appreciate, that you guys are intelligent and creative, but for Christ's sake - I might be exaggerating a bit, but it looks like you actually didn't; I understand that, you are the ones who code, not ones who play ( and imagine me high-fiving you, 'cause in such particular case I'm alike with you ). But in fact - this time you SHOULD go and try to play, if you didn't. Because despite all the brainstorm I am sure you did - when it comes to practice it ain't actually worked, but you still continue on that course.
About the experience level - despite being newbie, I absolutely agree with Mr. Disaster.
And about that putting-high-level-players-with-less-than-10-level-ones--cause-we-think-it's-balance, well... It. Doesn't Work.
One of you asked if doing so will make that high level player to lose more frequently, and puts on the thesis, that he will not. Which is absolutely, pardon my french (no offense), bullshit. Newbies know much less than those experienced ones, and tend to act mindlessly frequently. I would even say, that if the crew - forgetting all that experience or level stuff - IS including one guy who doesn't act as he should, that crew is more exposed to be shot down, and therefore the whole TEAM is exposed to LOSE. I understand, that from pure mathematic point of view it is reasonable to compensate high levels with greenhorns, but for the love of God, in true game this will NOT work.
If I understand well that glicko2 thingy, the lvl 1 player with one match played and won is placed higher than lvl 45 with about 90% of his matches won? Don't you guys see that this is and Monty Pythonisque absurd?
Most of reasons for hating new patch were explained by Mr.Disaster few posts earlier. I will not repeat those thoughts.
I tried to explain my thoughts as clearly, civil, and transparently as it was possible. And here's my advice - listen what veterans are saying. These guys trusted you, and some of them may feel betrayed.
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honestly post the numbers go ahead calling you out
also transparent i feel like i have mention transparency to muse to many times. player feed back is clearly asking you to be transparent and your argue about hiding numbers and saying to have facts and cold mathematics to prove it. weird just post it then
so fare i have been match against levels 45 and 45 pilots (2 of the best pilots in the game)and levels above 30 as crew with co pilot that had palyed 12 matchs and 3 lvl 1 players with no matches player
no matter how good a glicko score is there no way thats balanced or fair
also chasing inexperienced player around the map trying to save them is not fun at all
players in guns of icarus community have been complaining about game play balance for ages from all different sides of the game
now everyone is complaining about match balancing transparency is key show us the live glicko score in lobbys
my honest beleive is that the system muse has try to deploy is not working due to lack of players or higher levels playing ?
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Hmmm, Tropo, yeah, I kind of like the idea of actually displaying a player's glicko rating. If you want to hide the levels because you think they're not an accurate reflection of players' skill, why not show us the number that you insist IS an accurate reflection of their skill?
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How many of you (I mean, Muse DEVELOPERS) played your game?
Literally, nearly all of them. I don't mean to be a jerk here, and you being, as you claim, a game designer have some inside info on how the creation of the a game goes, but you're new to Icarus. You can't just jump into a community and make claims like this. The Devs are very active, at least more so than any other game I've played, in the environment. As far as the veterans making big claims, that's another thing. I appreciate the current change in tone from everyone. The yelling and ad hominem attacks and the memes(? Come on guys) weren't condusive to any sort of forward progress.
For the record, I see a lot of the new changes to be a little silly, but I don't know the ins and outs of what precisely goes on behind the scenes. Do I miss the match list? Very much so. Do I think hiding levels isn't good? Yeah. Do I think the new lobby design and the going back to crew form is dumb? Yes. BUT. I know that every single employee at Muse wants what's best for our game and our community. I trust all of the changes you make are for the best or at least have good intentions. Thanks Muse :D
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No matter what happens in our system will there be edge cases on balance? Definitely, same as the old system or any balance system.
No we won't put a players glicko2 score on next to their name, that's something we do not want players to focus on going up or down. Imagine if your ally tried something different and lost (like me in a close range spire) you'd blame and fixate on your loss of score. It'd push down experimental builds and make players play safer.
This brings me to my main point, as I mentioned in another thread, (that Wundsalz quoted from)
There are many legacy features hurting out balance right now.
If we can all agree to Wundsalz recommendation, we will happily strip down the system of the flex features and have a much more balanced match system. That's what it comes down to.
If the concern is balance, we are more than happy to focus 100% on balance.
We can make a system that does not allow glicko2 scores outside of x deviations to play with each other and even break up players into brackets (gold, silver, bronze) and have only them fight each other, but it will force us to remove many of the fex options.
We have Wundsalz's vote for a system like that (and that was my vote at the start of matchmaking 6 months ago)
Where does everyone else stand?
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I'm gonna throw in my vote for not removing the flexibility options. Balance is not what makes the game fun. Teamwork and social interaction are what make the game fun, and make it so very different from other online games. Winning and losing aren't the be-all, end-all or whether a match was fun -- playing with people who talk to me and that I enjoy working with determine whether or not a match is fun. Maybe if the playerbase were big enough to make lobbies in which the glicko score deviation were lower, I would be more inclined to agree that the balancing works, but I am going to be useless as a level 44 gunner on a ship with a level 1 pilot who never gives me gun arcs, even if I technically raise the average glicko rating of my team. the way it works now is frustrating and I literally ONLY friend join or crew form now to ensure I'll play a match that I'll actually enjoy, which actually means I interact less with new players and make fewer new friends, but since I no longer have the option to lobby-hop and see what's out there I don't have much of a choice.
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I usually do not take part in the discussions of this community, but when do, then I really have a reason to break my laziness either language barriers.
A lot of people would agree, that this is the worst patch released ever. Muse has already reached the point where they want to introduce something new to the game, but they had a lack of ideas, so they started to introduce everything just to show off, that they are doing something. I know this is not true, but that is just how it looks like for me. The whole idea of the matchmaking system was somehow not very necessary, because while matchmaking should balance the lobby and help people find matches to the appropriate level of challenge, it is doing exactly the opposite. (It should be also noted here that the ability get into friends lobby completely destroys the system)
Several people have written here, that forgot to make a screenshot. Fortunately, I make screenshots at least 20 per day :P Here's how matches look right now:
(http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/41982944572695866/DA3FE12C167B6BF6BCBBA5C4A343D0F07FC604CF/)
Players who left were mainly lvl 1-4
I really appreciate, that Muse have released today's patch. Without some bug fixes the game was just unable to play. But please FFS When you're trying to fix or improve something you're also making a lot of shit behind you! Why can't we swap to other team's ship? Oh, actually we can! You can easily bounce quickly through spectator slot in less than 0.5 second, so why we can't do it directly? I have no idea why it was introduced. Swapping to other team slot is just little more pain in the ass, but still if you want to do it, you will! Same story with hiding people's levels. If someone really want to play on the better team he will click on every single player, and then assess whether he wants to be on this team, or bounce through spectator to other. Perhaps Muse wanted to encourage people to cooperate with the assigned crew, but now it just makes people leaving lobby more willingly. And also finally WHY matchmaking system is not based upon player's level!? We are leveling up now without achievements, so I finally received what I wanted - My level reflects my experience! Of course, this does not take the theory, tactics knowledge etc. but it is a clear indicator of my in-game experience and time I've putted into this game to polish my engineering or piloting skills. But why now thankfully to all those "MMR" points I am constantly playing with lvl 1-4 greenhorns, whos level of skills and knowledge makes them unworthy "hold a candle" to me. And if losing games will tell system, that I am not good enough player to play with higher levels, then I will never get out of here. Of course why I will be losing matches? Because You can't win alone in co-op based game!
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The forums are all about getting the opinions of the community. In this game, above many other games, the community is the most important. You have a game where IF you do not have a good, solid, supportive community, you will no longer have a game. Or at least a game people want to play. This community is based upon players being able to communicate and player WELL with each other and to retain players. Without player retention the game grows weaker and more people will leave. I've been in this game for about a year and a half. I start when there was not many players on during any given time (60-80 players) and it was the veterans of the game that made me interested enough to stay. They had so much passion for this game and the community. Spring of this year the game flourished and we were seeing massive numbers of players on (200-400 players), clans were growing quickly, competitive play was high and the community was active. Since then there has been a drastic drop off of players starting this fall and again the numbers are low (50-70 players during slower times, 90-120 players during active times on the weekends). This is because many players are bored and wanting new content. There are a large number of new players...yet not many on them are retained and a lesser number of them are willing to listen to veteran players.
You listened to the community, Tropo specifically, and added the Captain Recommended Load outs!!! THIS WAS MUSE DOING IT RIGHT! Listening to the community and creating something that works well and benefits game play. Other things you listened to the community on where the fixed in the 1.3.8 Hotfix of being able to see the ships on the re-spawn map and the invisible wall on Canyons.
The 1.3.8 and 1.3.8 Hotfix have seemed to get many people in the community very vocal. Most of them being the Veterans of the game. This is because the Veterans are the ones that have made this game what it is. They have stayed in the game for 1+years. They have worked hard and put in literally 2,00 - 4,000 hours into playing this game...that's 83-166 DAYS in the last year or 2. THAT is A LOT OF TIME! So when they are getting "aggressive" "hostile" "angry" on the forum over these updates, there is a good reason for it and it's not just because they want to "nit pick". It is because they LOVE this game, LOVE the community, and as much as MUSE doesn't want to see this game die off, they don't either. I've read this whole forum post. What is looks like to me are 2 sides of a civil war inside of Guns. 1 side the veterans and the players trying to give feed back, yet some frustrated and angry. On the other side the representatives of MUSE, that want us to believe that these things are for the better but not actually having open conversations.
Neither side completely right, neither side completely wrong. And in order for this game to NOT DIE (yes this game will die, just like games similar to it like Hawken, if the community and developers don't work together).
The developers gave us the match making system because a lot of the community was complaining about the unbalance lobbies and the long lobby times. When this was in Dev App, many players stated their concerns for the current system and asked for it to be improved more before release. That didn't happen.
Let's say you're in the top 2% of the glicko2 score. Your ability to win consistently in many situations makes you a high rated player. Let's say you matchmake and there are 20 people in the queue and all the other games are either full or in-progress. In this situation you'll be match with probably the lesser players on your side to make the match as close to fair as possible. Does this mean you'll lose more than if you could join any lobby and find one with a more favorable situation? It does.
You can't have balance and be a very good player and not be match with lower allies (when you don't crew form or friend join.) Mathematically, it just doesn't work.
The players were complaining in 1.3.7 because they kept getting in lobbies with players that where either lower or higher level than them and "Pup Stomping" would take place which is bother frustrating for the higher level players that would have easy wins and the lower level players that would lose over and over with no chance of even learning the way the game should be played because they'd get killed so fast. This glicko 2 match making system has NOT helped this problem. Yes I understand how it works and why it was thought to be a good thing to implement, so please don't respond with that info. The type of system that the players of this game was looking for was one that would put higher levels with higher levels and lower levels with lower levels and the mid range players would be thrown into the mix no either side. With the understanding that the leveling system wasn't showing the "true" skill of the player, MUSE created the new Leveling system. WHICH I ACTUALLY THINK WILL WORK! Muse implemented the new leveling system to help create more balanced lobbies....but the system chosen to create the "balance" lobby is not the right one for this game.
The other reason that MUSE added the match making system was due to wait time in lobby...supposedly they were getting a lot of complaints about "Lobby of Icarus". Like Keyvias mentioned earlier this system was supposed to fix this. But It really hasn't. Yes, In the actual lobby there is only a limited amount of time players can stay in that lobby before the game starts automatically. BUT now if you have 4+ players in crew formation that you want to play with, you sit in que for 20+ mins (I have timed this on multiple occasions). Obviously when there are 150-200 players on the time is maybe only 10 mins but when it's the week days, since many players have left the game and there are only 50-80 players on during those times the que can be even higher than 20 mins). So instead of "Lobbies of Icarus" we now have "Que of Icarus" and frankly I would much rather sit in "Lobbies of Icarus". "Lobbies of Icarus" is one of the things that made this community what it is. Players know each other on a personal level because of these lobbies. When you jump on a game because you actually know they players and want to play with them THAT is an amazing community. Many of the players have met each other in real life, some players have started relationships with each other, many many of the players go and play other games in between the time they play GOIO and that is all because the lobbies are what made the players able to talk to one another and form bonds.
With the low player base...there will never be a system that removed the long waits and frankly some players don't want that removed.
Suggestion:
1) Keep the new leveling system implemented in 1.3.8 but create a match making system that puts higher levels with higher levels and lower level with lower levels. Keep the ability for us to see what matches our friends are in cause that is a good feature.
2) Put the levels back in from of the players names in lobby...that was silly. We can still see every ones levels in their profile and in chat. All it did was make players take 1 extra step to see if it would be a "Pup stomp" or not. If you go with my recommendation in #1, your claim of Veteran players leaving lobbies will actually stop.
3) Make the timed lobbies a preference that can be chosen. Similar to how swap lobbies was. This way the players that want to jump in a game and start quickly can CHOOSE "timed lobbies" but the players that maybe having a really fun time with friends or clan practice or clan vs clan matches or any other reason why people may want to stay in lobby longer can so choose.
So please...MUSE and the Community of Guns> WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER!
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So let me talk on hiding the levels and let me be frank.
They're wrong and they make players wrong.
Here here. My levels were adjusted poorly when the latest patch was implemented, and I was forced to send a strongly worded email to Muse. I don't want people to judge be by some artificial number sitting next to my name, and try as I may I can't help but judge people by the same criteria when I see that number next to their name. For a game that gives you no special ability beyond a fancier hat for leveling up, the whole community has acquired an unhealthy obsession with these numbers.
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Several people have written here, that forgot to make a screenshot. Fortunately, I make screenshots at least 20 per day :P Here's how matches look right now:
GurasOguras that is a good point and if Muse would like I can send them all the screen shots I have of unbalanced matches before and after the game that shows myself and my clan being put into 2v2 lobbies, through the match making system, with all 3 other ships full of 1-10 level players and the game ending 5-0 with whichever side we are on. This doesn't make the community want to play. For saving another long post by me I will not post all the screen shots here.
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If you hide levels because it is an insufficient indicator of skill, you rely on the implication that things that are shown should be indicative of effectiveness.
Explain why Glicko is hidden.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most games that have some sort of ranking system display your player ranking? I, too, am confused about why it would be hidden.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most games that have some sort of ranking system display your player ranking? I, too, am confused about why it would be hidden.
Even Mario Kart
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I think the illusion of balance is as important as actual balance. The worst case scenario is when half a team rage quits after their first unsuccessful engagement. When a novice sees ranks in the high 30's they are already intimated, and it just takes that little push of a crushing 1st engagement to convince them they stand no chance. We on the forums are not a representative sampling of the player base. We know levels do not impart any special abilities and that GOI is not a pay to win system. However players coming from outside our community may not be convinced. Seeing big numbers is the first part of a "This game is rigged against me" thought process that causes them to quit.
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The other, small, but annoying thing is, when you are suddenly thrown back to that bloody, matchmaking thing after the match. What if I wanted to end a sentence with person I was talking with during the match? HELL NO.
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First of all: GurasOguras and KitKatKitty - those were great posts, I salute you.
Suggestion:
1) Keep the new leveling system implemented in 1.3.8 but create a match making system that puts higher levels with higher levels and lower level with lower levels. Keep the ability for us to see what matches our friends are in cause that is a good feature.
2) Put the levels back in from of the players names in lobby...that was silly. We can still see every ones levels in their profile and in chat. All it did was make players take 1 extra step to see if it would be a "Pup stomp" or not. If you go with my recommendation in #1, your claim of Veteran players leaving lobbies will actually stop.
3) Make the timed lobbies a preference that can be chosen. Similar to how swap lobbies was. This way the players that want to jump in a game and start quickly can CHOOSE "timed lobbies" but the players that maybe having a really fun time with friends or clan practice or clan vs clan matches or any other reason why people may want to stay in lobby longer can so choose.
That's a start. Everything will work better than glicko2 and as I said the level is good enough indicator of player skill.
About the screenshots - send them all. Muse folks don't mind reading huge amount of e-mails ;)
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I'm confused by the disparity between people saying Glicko2 doesn't work, and Muse saying matches are more balanced than ever except when people crew form or leave the lobby before the match starts.
Personally, I played a few matches with one friend and was placed in matches that looked pretty unbalanced by levels. In fact, players on both teams commented on my level. I apologized in advance expecting it to be stompy.
And then it wasn't.
The game ended up being 5-4. I won, but only barely. I was in a 2v1 situation when it ended and finished off the last kill before the other ship could really bring its weapons to bear.
That's with carro-flamer pyra vs a junker and mobula with <lvl15 crews.
Only one example, I know. But it was exciting. And had I not known the levels of the other team, the whole match would have been much more tense instead of just the ending. As it was I expected to win so it wasn't until the end when it felt suddenly very close that the game got exciting.
For the time being when I play I will be playing (and recommend playing) with some rules:
Contain crew form to 1 ship max.
Don't leave a lobby you are matchmade in to.
Don't look at levels on the other team.
Don't rematch.
Don't swap slots or teams through any means.
See how it plays and feels. You should lose more. In a balanced setting a 50% win rate should be the norm, which would be a radical change for most of us. I think that is what is going to hit veterans the hardest. It is frustrating to lose, and we aren't used to it.
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I think the illusion of balance is as important as actual balance. The worst case scenario is when half a team rage quits after their first unsuccessful engagement. When a novice sees ranks in the high 30's they are already intimated, and it just takes that little push of a crushing 1st engagement to convince them they stand no chance. We on the forums are not a representative sampling of the player base. We know levels do not impart any special abilities and that GOI is not a pay to win system. However players coming from outside our community may not be convinced. Seeing big numbers is the first part of a "This game is rigged against me" thought process that causes them to quit.
I dunno, I personally would feel better being a new player and getting stomped in a game in which I could easily see that the other team comprised players with much higher levels than me. Then I would think, "Well, they just have more experience, and I'll get there." If, on the other hand, I'm stomped but there's no indication of level, I might think, "Well, I just suck at this game, I guess I'll go play something else." If you're going to lose, I don't see how having levels hidden would soften the blow at all.
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Wow, 5 pages of replies. This looks like the most controversial update this game has seen.
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Perhaps having a disclaimer in the tutorial saying that levels are purely cosmetic would help?
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I think part of why matches are more balanced than ever is the match making system is nerfing the most powerful mechanics of the game: cooperation and teamwork. If there are 4 players that work well as a team and are randomly distributed amongst 6 ships in a lobby odds are that one of those ships would contain at least two of those players who would ultimately crush the rest of the ships. If match making identifies the 4 OP players and sticks them on different ships the game will be more even since everyone will be playing at the same crap level.
@sparklerfish
It is not about softening the blow of defeat, but tricking people into thinking they have a chance even if they don't.
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Redria, take count on fact, that Muse must had taken away any swapping options for it to remain like that. And honestly, many peoples are switching places, and there are many reasons for that.
I understand what you mean, but on the other hand - this system is absolutely, let's say, fool-sensitive ( to be more precise - I mean the opposite of foolproof ) , and therefore it's bad.
By the way - are seriously want us to invite 100 friends so we can have something like old match lists? That's something completely opposite to community, and looks rather like scheiss-book-pseudo-social-media-stuff...
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Biggest problem with matchmaking?
You don't have enough people playing your game for it to make balanced lobbies.
What you get is people who know how to play match-made and distributed between people who don't know how to play, and lots of frustration for everyone.
Is it even between red and blue? yes.
Is it balanced inter-team? No.
Is playing on a ship with a large novice divide fun?
??
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Matchmaking did not address any of the issues anyone had with the game. The few things it was supposed to solve are still around and the rest was made worse. This was a waste if time and i feel like it was a mistake to put the game on sale at this point
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Geo, most often, do you use matchmaking or friend join to find games?
On friends list:
Actually it was a built in work around for some of our vet players who already had over 1000 friends. Required no work on their part and gave them pretty much the match list they had before, cutting out any novice games or games without people they knew/liked.
Red's rules are even more aggressive, but steps like that are big pushes towards balance over flexibility.
@Sale
The biggest complaints we had we on time and balance in most of our reviews and we know this works better than the old system and will work even better with more people especially many around the same level.
As I said before, if we want to focus balance, let's come to a consensus and we'll get started making balance the priority.
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Matchmaking would work just fine if we got real fixes to real problems and real new content so that the community can grow. It needs a large number of players for it to work. Advertising with steam sales can get warm bodies in the short term, but they inevitably will leave, because they buy it to realize that the game was not even worth the severely discounted rate that they payed. The last time we got fun new toys was closer to the initial release in 2012 than current day.
This system seems to be built on the assumption that GoIO is a huge community with enough pull to keep large numbers of players even through heavy handed and misguided updates. Not every experienced player wants to have to teach new players constantly.
This hotfix made most of my clan uninstall.
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It's like they were told matchmaking hasn't really been helping create balanced matches and then rather than working on that they made it slightly more difficult to see how unbalanced a match is.
Also, invisible ships!
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I own this game for a month or something, and to be honest - there are only 3 reasons I haven't uninstalled it yet.
1. The gameplay is really good and this is the only multiplayer oriented game about which I actually CAN say it's really good.
2. God dammit, my good friend Disaster and I are both introverts, I'm rather more expressive, but for christ's sake, this is propably only place where we can more or less meet each other and have fun together, yet not bothering ourselves
3. ...I paid 15 bloody euros for this one, and I am a poor, young, unemployed polish student. I respect my money, especially when I spend them.
Edit: Oh, you noticed that too? I thought it was one of my delusions...
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It's like they were told matchmaking hasn't really been helping create balanced matches and then rather than working on that they made it slightly more difficult to see how unbalanced a match is.
Also, invisible ships!
Yeah, you can see all the levels by pressing tab once the match starts or just clicking a bit in the lobby. That 'fix' really is a joke.
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Most often? I don't think its been in the game long enough to say most often, but since its been in I've been using it to see how it fairs.
On the day of patch release most of the biggest GoI fans and best players played the heck out of the game more than usual - my initial experience with matchmaking, fucking A* went straight into good balanced lobbies had some awesome games. Over the next few days the activity from these players returned to normal and my match making experience became pretty consistently what I described in my previous post:
people who know how to play match-made and distributed between people who don't know how to play, and lots of frustration for everyone.
Since the hot-fix you've grouped the crewing classes engineer and gunner together for matchmaking. This has left me in a position where I am unable to matchmake for religious reasons, and I am missing the old match list dearly when my friends are offline.
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For the time being when I play I will be playing (and recommend playing) with some rules:
Contain crew form to 1 ship max.
Don't leave a lobby you are matchmade in to.
Don't look at levels on the other team.
Don't rematch.
Don't swap slots or teams through any means.
I don't like these for many reasons:
Contain crew formto 1 ship max??? really what about clans or friends that may have 6 players on that all want to be in the same match with each other, even on the same side so their is cordination?
Don't leave to lobby you are matchmade into?? This is unrealistic. There are many reasons why someone may want to leave a lobby...a friend may invite them to a different match, something may happen in real life that a person would have to leave quickly, etc.
Don't look at levels on the other team. I can understand this BUT level are more usful than just to see if there will be a pup stomp. What if a "high" level player would like to teach the "low" level players in lobby? Many new players do not ask for help but the Veterans can offer help when they see a level 1 player.
Dont rematch???? Why? what if you liked how the previous match went? maybe it was crazy intense and you want to rematch.
Dont swap? What if a friend or a co-pilot in a clan jumps in game and through match making gets put on the opposite team and you would like to get some clan practice in. The only option is to completely leave that lobby and start the whole match making process again. Losing time and potentially killing the lobby you are leaving.
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Matchmaking would work just fine if we got real fixes to real problems and real new content so that the community can grow. It needs a large number of players for it to work. Advertising with steam sales can get warm bodies in the short term, but they inevitably will leave, because they buy it to realize that the game was not even worth the severely discounted rate that they payed. The last time we got fun new toys was closer to the initial release in 2012 than current day.
This system seems to be built on the assumption that GoIO is a huge community with enough pull to keep large numbers of players even through heavy handed and misguided updates. Not every experienced player wants to have to teach new players constantly.
This hotfix made most of my clan uninstall.
The worst thing is that matchmaking WAS SUPPOSED to be that new shiny cool thing (but also useful) to get new players. I fully understand your clan.
Also, invisible ships!
-Captain! It's no good.
-What is it?
-Our enemies are....
....wizards!
On friends list:
Actually it was a built in work around for some of our vet players who already had over 1000 friends. Required no work on their part and gave them pretty much the match list they had before, cutting out any novice games or games without people they knew/liked.
So you tested a feature on like 0,5 - 1% of most elite game population (both skills and time playing) and recommend this to rest of the players as "bring-back-the-server-list-solution"? I shall not comment on that one.
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Actually it was a built in work around for some of our vet players who already had over 1000 friends. Required no work on their part and gave them pretty much the match list they had before, cutting out any novice games or games without people they knew/liked.
I think this feature could even kept as is or the former match list could be reintroduced without hurting the matchmaking system as much as the friend join feature does right now. Just check a players glicko2-rating if he tries to join a team and deny his request if it would ruin the balance.
Another remark regarding crew form: please keep it! And also don't restrict the number of players in a pre-made crew-formation! I really like being able to fly with a co-captain of my choice and I think it's a feature which is necessary to keep our clan-scene vital. I think being able to play with a pre-made crew of 8 players is essential to get new clans started and established ones running At least SIR has been growing over several weeks, slowly expanding the player pool we've playing with on a regular basis - all in public matches. So please don't cut the crew form. Let match-making deal with 8-player pre-mades somehow, even at the cost of balance!
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Wellp.....I know there is no reason to even log in and type anything. I learned my lesson with Devs+Money from the Red Orchestra's Devs (Trip Wire) so I will just make it short and sweet
This Mr. Disaster guy is 100% right. experience >
The feeble arguments you Devs are grasping on to are some of the silliest things I ever read in my life. Its clear why you are doing this money and making greenhorns feel "safer" is apparent. That's cool though this is a free world right?Soon coop will make in the biggin's. Power To Ya' Brothers!
I had 12 friends buy this game and a couple other on the fence. I am now never to be trusted again due to the mass praises I gave your game before this update and the hot fix being the nail in my coffin. I even bought it for my cousins. No point in asking for money back for all of us as you will say "We do not deal with money, please contact steam" Even though you KNOW DAMN WELL steam won't give money back. YOU should own up to your failures like honorable men and women and give out of your OWN pockets and let steam keep what they keep because they deserve it for allowing your once great product on steam to the masses. After this massive destruction of core game play steam should keep the money as pay offs and apologies from you men and women. That is of course if you would own up and admit your mistakes. So far reading your "justification" no just no you won't.
With that said I still respect you all for the once flawless game you had and will no long preorder nor will my friends and we will uninstall and move on our way back to Insurgency until those Devs ruin it. Best wishes :-*
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War Thunder has around 18,000 players according to steam. And many more who just download it through their website instead of steam. Even with such a big player base you will still be matched against people who are higher tier than you.
World of Tanks has around 80,000 players, you are still matched up against people who are higher tier than you.
This game has around 100 to 200 people playing on average. Even Farming Simulator 2013 has more players, it has 3,000 people playing it. I'm not sure why you thought match making would work in this game, maybe you thought the future youtube event will bring us thousands of players like always that this time will not drop the game in a week's time which is why you added match making. If that works then good job to you, Muse. If the youtube hype dies out and we go back to 100-200 players, then we can greet back our broken match making that doesn't have anywhere near enough people to properly use!
I wish only for the best to this game, but the future is looking grim.
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Lets try to keep the forum constructive.
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Lets try to keep the forum constructive.
For this specific release, being constructive means saying NO very loudly.
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For this specific release, being constructive means saying NO very loudly.
There is a difference between saying NO loudly...and just being nonconstructive. Just trying to keep everything helpful here or nothing will get done.
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NO!
I'd have never become a vet if this patch existed a year ago. The problems I see are:
- No lobby. How do people join undermanned matches? I joined a clan so I could get into those private games I saw.
- Removing ranks is really stupid. I like being able to tell at a glance how experienced players are. I used to keep my rank artificially low so I could surprise people.
- Maybe its just me, but I don't like my rank being next to my name in chat. I want to be judged based on my name, not the rank of a particular class.
- Pilot K/D is missing. Plus I don't have any ram kills. I rammed everything that moved!
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As I said earlier in the feedback and suggestions matchmaking thread,
...I have been pushing for the idea that there should be two systems: Matchmaking (MM) and Match List (ML) for a long time. The community pushed to have quick join removed for a long time, and the idea of matchmaking was supported mainly as an alternative to quick join. Why should we, the veteran players, those who are part of the reason why this game has such a good community overall, have to suffer? Why are we, the veterans, having to deal with a system that degrades the community experience, strategy, general craziness, and overall fun and entertainment value of the game, why all of this just so that the shorter-term, pick-up, play the game, all of two or some-odd times, not giving half a damn about the community get a system designed with just them in mind, stripped down to provide just a glimpse at the depth of the game? Is it not us, the veterans, those who continually help, by giving assistance, feedback, sending in well-informed reports, self-policing and discouraging toxicity amongst the community. Is it not the veterans who are the ones teaching the newbies, pushing the limits on the depth of the game, and helping nurture the community who hold up the community standards, actually care, growing and sustaining the community with a passion, one that dwarfs any found in most of the largest, most popular games in existence? Why should we, the community as a whole, get off with the short end of the stick, with the social aspects of the games, such as the possibility of meeting someone in a random lobby, someone who could eventually become a new friend, a new acquaintance, or even a person who could become in the future a new clan member, reduced or removed entirely? What exactly was Muse's point when they removed one of the most integral portions of the community the match list, the social hub of the game, by basically ripping out its heart, and trying to replace it with a lesser alternative?
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Regarding visible and invisible levels, I suggest:
- Remove levels from the chat again. Since every class can have a different level, this feature is very inaccurate.
- During matchmaking, show only the levels of your team and remove every way to look at other peoples levels while you are in a matchmade lobby and the person whose level you are looking at is in the same matchmade lobby. Which means you can still look at the levels of people that write in global chat or at peoples level on your friend list that are not in the same match as you. (Might wanna enable seeing friends level during matchmade levels, because they are friends.)
- During custom lobbies show levels of every person in the lobby, as long as it is not affected by matchmaking that is. Since MM is not active here, the reason to hide levels does not exist here. If it is joined through friend list, the level is known already and so on.
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@Daniel
What happens to levels in custom lobbies that are then opened to the MM queue? What happens to the levels of people who are match-made into a re-matching lobby? Would then not be able to see anyone else level where the majority of the lobby already knows their levels?
Also - so now we would have to click 5 times to see each persons level instead of just once? Or would you block the ability to add people as friends in pre-game lobbies?
All I can see is even more nonsensical frustration.
As far as I can tell there are 2 options:
Bring the lobby back to how it was pre hotfix and show the levels.
Remove the level system from public view EVERYWHERE including player Profiles.
The thing is, does Muse really want to do the second option after investing so much time, effort, and presumably money into developing the new progression system, while angering around 70% of the active player base? Seems like a waste to me.
What I've personally ascertained from the developers responses so far (on this forum and in-game) is that their decision to hide player levels is simply a motive to hide the failings of the new matchmaking system - unable to successfully create balanced matches under the low player load and rejection by around half of the community who "break balance" by using the social features. (Sorry for wanting to play with our friends and not random newbie strangers)
As an open question - Does anyone know a (successful) multi-player game where the players ranking is hidden from other players in some instances but not others? Personally I don't know any other than the current version of GoI. If you haven't gathered already - I really don't like it.
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Just check a players glicko2-rating if he tries to join a team and deny his request if it would ruin the balance.
Please no...
Please, just no.
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As an open question - Does anyone know a multi-player game where the players ranking is hidden from other players in some instances but not others? Personally I don't know any other than the current version of GoI.
The match-making-rating(mmr) is hidden or at least hard to access for the player in many games. Personally I know more games which hide it than games which spam it around. To name a few examples:
- Hawken provides no ingame UI or other tool to let players know their mmr. However there is a 3rd party program with a bot-bridge which allows the user to read ones own mmr and balance information about a lobby
- I've never seen my own mmr value LoL and afaik it's not possible to access it (ranked matches put aside). I haven't played LoL for a couple of years though, so my info might be outdated here
- Afaik Smite doesn't provide access to the mmr used for casual matches either (I haven't played smite for a while either so again this info might be outdated)
- Afaik Robocraft doesn't grant access to the mmr they use for match-making (if they use Glicko or a similar system to begin with - I've neither read anything confirming nor denying this)
Just check a players glicko2-rating if he tries to join a team and deny his request if it would ruin the balance.
Please no...
Please, just no.
Care to elaborate? Unrestricted joining of existing lobbies is one of the mayor "legacy elements" which inhibits match-making. It allows players to come along and stack a game which otherwise would have been balanced.
Sure playing with friends is a necessity, but I see no harm in having to setup a crew-formation to do so. That way the match-making system at least has got a chance to somehow deal with groups of good players.
That being said, I'd like to leave a note for muse here: I will be seriously pissed if you cut away the possibility to play with 8+ people pre-made-crews. I'm well aware that large parties are highly problematic for match-making systems, but I am not willing to cut away the possibility to play with an entire pre-made-fleet for the sake of having balanced matches. That's a red line. Don't cross it!
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@Michael Wittman - have something like the same case here. The only difference is that I praised this game much, and got some of my friends to say that they'll buy this game when it's on sell, as we all are quite poor. That was until the introduction of release 1.3.8. Because after that I had to tell them to wait, until you guys do something with your new "innovation". To be honest - the only reason why this people trusted me about buying this one game is, that I'm a VERY picky player and I tend not to praise anything that is frustrating to me - not because being difficult or whatever.
And I agree with Wittman, that this justifying is silly.
Honestly, I would be voting for a downgrade to patch 1.3.7, because lobbies were working QUITE well - they were not anyhow brilliant, but I prefer spending time with other players and talking with them rather than being thrown into another match, because I haven't checked one bloody radiobutton.
I was playing this game, because it was a really interesting escape from things like differential equations or discrete mathematics, it has (because it still has despite minor bugs) brilliant gameplay and very interesting in-game mechanics.
Now, everytime I cope with MM, it makes me want to forsake this game, as it makes me so frustrated, and even your masterpiece of actual gameplay DO NOT compensate it.
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@Wundsalz
I'm not talking about hidden glicko2, I'm talking about hidden levels. (sorry I worded that badly) All the games that have progression systems show the level of the player despite the ranking used for any matchmaking.
Please no? Because I want to play with my friends. Social > pseudo-Balance* always
(The majority of my friends are of a similar skill level to me - If they're in a match where my joining throws the balance then the matchmaking has failed to create an interesting balanced game and they are infact in a pseudo-balanced lobby.)
4 kinds of lobby:
1) Novices + Novices > Fun
2) Vets + Vets > Fun
3) Novices + Vets (stacked) > Not fun for anyone
4) Novices + Vets (interspersed) > Not fun/frustrating for 50% of the people.
Matchmaking so far creates the fourth type of lobby far more often than the first or second, and once the lobby has ended and a scrambled rematch begins the lobby usually turns into the third type of lobby. If we had enough players for matchmaking to work it would be making the first or second type of lobby most often and social joining wouldn't be an issue.
Best part about level hiding? When the lobby turns into type three, none of the new-players know that its massively stacked and then they rage-quit half way through the match.
Second best part? The veterans don't notice its stacked and then don't manually balance the lobby by ship swapping causing the novices to rage-quit half way through the match.
* mixing novices and veterans because there aren't enough people to actually make balanced games.
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And I agree with Wittman, that this justifying is silly.
Where does muse state the system was good as is? I doubt anyone, neither the community, nor the devs are happy with the games current state.
Regarding the money-milker picture Wittmann paints. I think it's an outrageously unjust assessment of muses intentions. If you make such wild claims at least have the decency to bother making an argument based on reason and show us how muse now miraculously generates more money from this game. I for one don't even see remote signs they were heading into that direction.
3) Novices + Vets (stacked) > Not fun for anyone
4) Novices + Vets (interspersed) > Not fun/frustrating for 50% of the people.
Matchmaking so far creates the fourth type of lobby far more often than the first or second, and once the lobby has ended and a scrambled rematch begins the lobby usually turns into the third type of lobby. If we had enough players for matchmaking to work it would be making the first or second type of lobby most often and social joining wouldn't be an issue.
Friend-joins turn 4) lobbies into 3) lobbies. That's not a good thing. Personally I wouldn't mind idleing for a while/playing against my friends for half a match before getting picked up into the crew-formation afterwards. If it helps to improve the balance of matches, I'm willing to restrict the friend-join feature.
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You missed the point.
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how so?
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I believe, that level hiding is a healthy initiative. Please, remove levels from chat too.
Captain-suggested loadouts are an amazing initiative too. Please, make it more visible for new captains. Like huge button "set loadouts" and "Give loadouts to crew" in ship customisation OR near the ready button.
For the little community and playerbase, matchmaking works fine. Really. I know about 2-3 gunners problem, but it is not that huge. Yes, people leave the game in middle, to find their fun in a different match. It is probably a good idea to motivate them to fight untill the end. Like giving a drop of small cosmetic items in the end. More kills, fires, repairs, rebuilds - more chance for drop of something cool =)
I will not suggest the bug fixing, they have been reported multiple times and I know, that unlike other game's developers, Muse working hard on their removal at first priority.
And please, veteran players, don't be so arrogant. To Muse, to newcomers, to the game. Basically, you are only one power to improve the game or (more likely) destroy it.
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About arrogance of veterans... I wouldn't call that arrogance. I'd rather say they are conservative. They are used to a system, that had it's flaws, but was more or less working quite well. But it was helpful in building community.
I supposed the best thing that was said about veterans' attitude was said by (I believe) KitKatKitty, some posts earlier, maybe even not in this thread (I keep losing the track, I'm sorry). They seem arrogant and hostile towards new patch because they put LOADS OF time to play it, get experience, learn it's mechanics and improve their strategies and skills. They earned level, and they sometimes boast about them - and mostly it's absolutely justified (not always however), because they spent much of their important lifetime on this game. They LOVED this game. Now they feel betrayed.
That's all I can say. Some users expressed my thoughts 'bout all this case better than me.
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I supposed the best thing that was said about veterans' attitude was said by (I believe) KitKatKitty, some posts earlier, maybe even not in this thread (I keep losing the track, I'm sorry).
Yes it was this thread on page 4. It is rather long but I do think it conveys a lot of the veterans feelings and why this has became such a controversy.
I believe, that level hiding is a healthy initiative. Please, remove levels from chat too.
As much as I think it could be healthy as far as people not judging players based on their level. I don't actually think hiding the levels benefits the community nor game over all. Reasoning: It does help new players to see who has been in this game for a long time to get help and instruction from them on load outs and play styles. I've heard a lot of newer players "suggesting" load outs but aren't actually right or there are better load outs that could be taken that they haven't learned yet. Also, regardless of what people say, levels do help with figuring out how stacked a lobby will be and if Veteran players can "balance" the lobby....I do NOT think the leveling system is the problem here. So, I would suggest going back to showing the levels in game like we had during the 1.3.8 patch and BEFORE the hotfix.
I agree with geo on this.
3) Novices + Vets (stacked) > Not fun for anyone
4) Novices + Vets (interspersed) > Not fun/frustrating for 50% of the people.
We have all seen it happen many times before.
As far as the actual problem for these patches, the matchmaking system
For the little community and playerbase, matchmaking works fine.
I'm not sure how you can think it "works fine" with our small community. I actually feel like playing in game with you soon to see if when you match make it's better than the experiences myself and many others have had.
Honestly, I would be voting for a downgrade to patch 1.3.7, because lobbies were working QUITE well - they were not anyhow brilliant, but I prefer spending time with other players and talking with them rather than being thrown into another match, because I haven't checked one bloody radiobutton.
At this point, I might agree. I wouldn't mind having the lobby system that was in 1.3.7 (since I hadn't seen a problem with it before) BUT keep the Captain recommended load outs AND the new leveling system from 1.3.8. (not 1.3.8 hotfix).
As it stands if I'm playing with 4+ friends or clan mates, we are just using custom lobbies because in the que our wait time has been 18mins, 21mins, 28mins, and 23mins. We could have played a match or 2 by then and it allows us to balance our own lobbies.
that unlike other game's developers, Muse working hard on their removal at first priority.
I completely agree with this statement! Muse is an amazing game developer which is why so many Veterans care soooo much.
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We give harsh criticisms BECAUSE WE CARE! If we didn't care, we'd be saying "meh." And walking away.
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Despite the heated comments from both sides I have no doubt everyone here's goal is a great Guns of Icarus.
A quick side note, have you guys seen Omniraptor's idea (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5004.0.html).
We've been talking about it around the office this morning as a way to push more people into queue thus creating better matches while still letting fun rounds keep going.
Would love to hear everyone's thoughts.
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Keyvais I will respond to that on that thread as to make things easier.
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Aight, here's my perspective as a newish vet (played since may, have about 700 games played, about 60-70% as captain).
1. I have played with a lot of novice crews, and I find that with novice crews some builds are unplayable - i.e. mobula. Now, I have actually taught completely new players how to crew a mobula in a 3v3 and been successful, but that takes substantial effort from me as a captain that I'm not ALWAYS willing to put in. So point one is that the matchmaking system is likely to increase the amount of explaining and teaching that I have to do by virtue of low playerbase as has been mentioned in this thread so far.
2. I am more willing to teach and talk to new players if
(1) they are responsive and listen, and
(2) I have someone else to help me with the process.
For example, last night KitKatKitty and I flew a Galleon with a newbie bot deck and kept the build the same through a number of games to give the new players some experience playing with the same build over and over - and it was far easier with two experienced players willing to guide than just me. I find that when I am alone as a vet on a ship with a new crew of which even one person is unresponsive, I am instantly uninclined to put time into guiding or playing cooperatively with the people on my ship.
3. I prefer transparency to misdirection. I totally understand about how player dynamics work with regard to seeing levels and feeling instantly dispirited, and I can see the perspective from the other side. The problem here is that the illusion is really hard to maintain with a low player-base like what we have. Thus, I prefer not to be treated like I'm an idiot and don't understand what's going on with regard to matchmaking. It's clearly the most conventionally fun to play with a perfectly oiled crew, and everyone loves winning, which leads me too...
4. I don't mind losing, as long as people are having a good time. When I'm losing and people are communicative, even if they're all novices, I don't mind nearly as much. We're having fun, we're shooting guns, we're crashing into things... it might be exasperating getting blown up, but we all know why that's happening. When no one communicates, I feel like the game is a chore. And the thing that glicko2 definitely doesn't measure is how communicative someone is feeling at any point in time. But I guess that's just a fact we're going to have to live with in terms of any matchmaking system for a team game.
So, am I disappointed with some of the changes? Yes - but I suppose I can chalk some of that up to conservatism. Still, I would highlight the points I've noted above as an indication that my experience with the game hasn't fundamentally changed from before the matchmaking system was introduced, with the exception that I'm being called upon to teach more often than I have previously. And that has been stressful, and difficult, and often frustrating to the point of not wanting to play any more that day.
Just my thoughts.
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Where does muse state the system was good as is? I doubt anyone, neither the community, nor the devs are happy with the games current state. Read through the first few pages of this thread you will see
Regarding the money-milker picture Wittmann paints. I think it's an outrageously unjust assessment of muses intentions. If you make such wild claims at least have the decency to bother making an argument based on reason and show us how muse now miraculously generates more money from this game. I for one don't even see remote signs they were heading into that direction. This update is for coop, that much has been confirmed. Coop is to bring in tons of money due to it will be newb friendly rather than catering to the core gamers who have kept this game alive for two years. If you can keep the newbies playing a little longer you will make more money than catering the same 300 people playing every day
Keep in mind this is the second time I have been hoodwinked by devs who claim one thing but do another. I learned my lesson on fighting the powers that be. No good will come from it but a swift ban. If you cannot see this then you are blinded my friends. You will see it when workshop starts pushing out bronie skins and the devs catch on and collect the top ten best workshops and make them DLC for a quarter each. Mark My WORDS. The day of reckoning is upon us.
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This update is for coop, that much has been confirmed.
Has it now? Frankly I'm a bit baffled by said confirmation, which I must have missed, as the match making systems tries to match players versus players. So far I've assumed the systems reusability (the most evil thing ever) for a PvE game would be rather limited.
Sure, muse focuses on pushing their new project forward in general, which is a reasonable thing to do as they won't be able to live on GoIO:PvP alone forever, but as I see it, this particular patch for GoIO:PvP is, well a patch for GoIO:PvP. Loadout-recommendation feature, better tutorials, an improved minimap, a lot of bug fixes - all things which improve GoIO:PvP... 2 years after the release.
The match-making system is motivated by GoIO:PvPs needs as well - it's supposed to address a problem GoIO has got since its release: stacked lobbies. Obviously the system has got its flaws which unfortunately currently overshadow it's benefits and the other improvements which have been introduced with this patch.
Keep in mind this is the second time I have been hoodwinked by devs who claim one thing but do another. I learned my lesson on fighting the powers that be. No good will come from it but a swift ban. If you cannot see this then you are blinded my friends. You will see it when workshop starts pushing out bronie skins and the devs catch on and collect the top ten best workshops and make them DLC for a quarter each. Mark My WORDS. The day of reckoning is upon us.
I care little for your delusions. Scribble your reckoning prophecies on a sign and proclaim them running through the street naked if you must, but don't expect me to lend you an ear.
Regarding your fears of getting banned for critizism you can safely ease up though. Muse has got a history of taking criticism on the chin, more so they try to work things out rather than ignoring it. I recommend this article (http://gunsoficarus.com/blog/goio-post-mortem-part-v-what-dumplings-taught-us-about-service/) as it grants some insight on muses attitude and mind set when it comes to interaction with their customers. You really don't do justice to them here.
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@TeddyBearMafia - the truth has been once more spoken, only to be left unnoticed by those who are in power. And that's sad, because as far as live tought me - only spitting unjustified hatred is being noticed...
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I never stated we're happy with the system as is. We've had a bunch of meetings on improving the system and some awesome players have even come up with ideas that preserve flexibility while helping the matchmaker see it's thing. Ie. check out Omniraptor's idea.
Are we happier with this system than with the match list? Definitely. It's statistically better in a lot of ways and conquers a lot of the old issues we had.
Does this mean it's perfect and we're never touching it ever again? Definitely not.
I mean we're still looking at the change that happened to the engineer with the buff to the flamethrower making chem spray rotations a big part of the game. Nothing is ever "done" we always want to ask ourselves the cause, effect, and a way to improve the game.
If I seem brisk it's simply because "I don't like it take it away" isn't really solid feedback for us to build off of. I can't argue with anecdotal evidence. If you had unbalanced or slow matchmaking experiences, I won't say it didn't happen, but I will say it's not the characteristic experience of the system, especially compared to the old system.
This isn't to say I am not listening to negative comments, but the constructive ones have definitely been given a lot more consideration
To give an example of negative Feedback that I've appreciated:
"I do not like playing with novices all the time because training can be a lot of work."
We went overboard with some time and flexibility options when some players have talked about balance being more important to them
"We want transparency on how the system works (numbers wise)"
Those are the three I remember going off the top of my head and glancing through the posts. Here's the meetings I've had and we talked about those things.
1. More strict novice division from vets. A lv 40 + a lv 1 =/= a lv 20 + a lv 20, no matter the glicko score due to the lv 1 needing to have experience. We spotted some weaknesses behind the scenes on some of the matchmaker logic and we're going to work on improving that.
2.Some flex features may go away or be adjusted to make the system a little stricter on balance to give better matches.
3. A leaderboard was always planned to give you a general idea of where you are, like gold, silver, ect league. It was planned to replace the levels on the side of the lobby, but since the levels were being used in a terrible way they were removed before the leaderboard was finished.
Also if I missed yours it's more because there's a lot of conflicting voices at the moment and frustrating to comb through everything.
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Don't take away my levels damnit.
We like the levels. We've earned the levels. You've already devalued them by unlinking them from the achievements - don't make it worse.
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5002.0.html
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If I seem brisk it's simply because "I don't like it take it away" isn't really solid feedback for us to build off of. I can't argue with anecdotal evidence.
Yes, I understand that, and I'm aware that mostly I give "feedback" like this. I'm not proud of it, because I let myself being too driven by my negative emotions.
If you had unbalanced or slow matchmaking experiences, I won't say it didn't happen, but I will say it's not the characteristic experience of the system, especially compared to the old system.
If you like numbers so much, take a look just on the number of players telling you that they experienced such. And take the multiplifier of the fact, that such matches happen not just often, they happen constantly.
When an event happens so often it becomes a clue that such occurences are characteristic of the spoken system. Therefore I must disagree.
To give an example of negative Feedback that I've appreciated:
"I do not like playing with novices all the time because training can be a lot of work."
For you it's a negative feedback, for us this is one of the main reasons for giving such feedback. It's not like we don't like to teach others how to play, but FFS, not EVERY SINGLE MATCH. And I suppose that after putting GOIO on sell this will be way more disturbing, as an incredibly big amount of newbies will come...
We went overboard with some time and flexibility options when some players have talked about balance being more important to them
"We want transparency on how the system works (numbers wise)"
Somehow I think this wasn't what they meant, although none shall disagree that you are putting much effort in your game. The thing is, that this efforts go in vain in case of matchmaker working like this. But to be honest - I will stop my argument right here, only because I do not know how many of those you've talking with have spoken here by far.
Those are the three I remember going off the top of my head and glancing through the posts. Here's the meetings I've had and we talked about those things.
1. More strict novice division from vets. A lv 40 + a lv 1 =/= a lv 20 + a lv 20, no matter the glicko score due to the lv 1 needing to have experience. We spotted some weaknesses behind the scenes on some of the matchmaker logic and we're going to work on improving that.
Really? I mean - really? You guys really made such claim? Well then I'll say, that even some of the 40 lvl now captains =/= 40 lvl now captains. Rather rarely, it's just the example that even with the most reduced case of the theory such statement is not always true.
2.Some flex features may go away or be adjusted to make the system a little stricter on balance to give better matches.
3. A leaderboard was always planned to give you a general idea of where you are, like gold, silver, ect league. It was planned to replace the levels on the side of the lobby, but since the levels were being used in a terrible way they were removed before the leaderboard was finished.
2. No offence sir, after recent patch I have the right not to trust you at this issue and I know you are propably forbidden to say more.
3. Leaderboard can endanger the community as it is now - previously players where hunting achievements, after putting leagues in there is a great chance, that the tendency to cursing newbies will be even more harsh to everyone, because if the one part of the command chain is weak, the risk of getting shot down is terribly increased, so it forces a cooperation of sort. I mean - you guys plan things without analysing both sides of the medal (if such proverb in english exists), or even the third or fourth one.
Also if I missed yours it's more because there's a lot of conflicting voices at the moment and frustrating to comb through everything.
It might be some sort of paranoia, but it seems you guys try to answering only those who agrees with changes of some part. I can understand that. What I can't understand is the feedback of those who do not agree with you, REPORTS WHY we assume the system is broken (or reject those because "our marvellous, divine work makes good job") and try to suggest more or less reasonable solutions.
About hiding levels.
Leave them as they were before hotfix.
All the explanation why was displayed before. If people feel proud of what they achieved, why the blood soaked hell takin' it away? Yes, I noticed those explanations why, but all of those by far seem too far-fetched (I don't mean to offend anyone now, just saying out my feelings) for my sense of logic.
You've already devalued them by unlinking them from the achievements - don't make it worse.
It may be surprising to you, but I completely agree with GeoRMR. The previous means of leveling where interesting, more requiring alternative to classic experience based leveling. If the reason behind that system was to make level indicator showing some actual earned skill - it was more or less fitting that one. Yeah, of course there were achieve-hunting, but it wasn't very-very-bad in my opinion. It's not like I'm saying that new system is worse but... I don't know. I don't feel getting XPs is so exciting like, for example, getting the third level after your fourth match as a pilot, because you did so well and got those achievements. Just saying.
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@Schwalbe
If you don't trust us, then nothing I say is really going to solve that.
It's not a forbidden to say more, it's more we're looking at it at the moment and I don't want to say we're going to do one thing, switch it at the last moment and do another. I could tell you every thing we're looking at, but I don't really want feedback on the ideas since they're just that, ideas, untested and untempered. Having an opinion war on everything that goes through the idea pile would be massively time consuming. (We already fight amongst ourselves enough on ideas.)
As far as achievements, they were... bad and I dislike any system that has players who have put in 2000 hours not being or higher than 12 (which happened before.) As far as making Xp more exciting that'd definitely something we can work on.
As far as the level example it was a snap hyperbole explanation of the weaknesses of novices. As far as lv 40 as the example it's because it was the quickest way to explain it saying 1800 glicko2 score doesn't mean as much.
As for why I don't type back on a lot of the more negative feedback?
Because I don't have anything constructive to say back.
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As far as achievements, they were... bad and I dislike any system that has players who have put in 2000 hours not being or higher than 12 (which happened before.) As far as making Xp more exciting that'd definitely something we can work on.
Well, that's the system that you originally made. Why are you now punishing the players who did put that time into it by hiding the progress that they earned?
As a redeeming idea, Why not release a few more profile badges or some other cosmetic element for completionists to display after they finish all the achievements in a class?
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As far as achievements, they were... bad and I dislike any system that has players who have put in 2000 hours not being or higher than 12 (which happened before.) As far as making Xp more exciting that'd definitely something we can work on.
Well, that's the system that you originally made. Why are you now punishing the players who did put that time into it by hiding the progress that they earned?
As a redeeming idea, Why not release a few more profile badges or some other cosmetic element for completionists to display after they finish all the achievements in a class?
YES! I'm still attached to achievements and still trying to finish them -- I'd almost completed 125 incendiary kills and 125 fires with flares, and I'll be damned if I let all that work go to waste. I'm finishing that ****er, and 50 XP or whatever is not the reward I want when I'm already max level.
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I could definitely see a "completed all achievements" badge. Something awesome and rare for the players who put in the time and effort. I'll check with the team and see what we can do.
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If it means I'll have to play engineer or finish the teaching achieves I'm still gon be mad. ^^
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If it means I'll have to play engineer or finish the teaching achieves I'm still gon be mad. ^^
if it means I have to pilot or finish the teaching achieves I, too, gon be mad. The rewards should be class-specific imo.
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agreed, class-specific, and one for completing all achieves across all classes for any completionists in the community as well. overkill, maybe, but they'd have earned it.
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Idea: A player who has completed all achievements shows up in-game as solid gold. Unfortunately the weight of their ego also makes the ship sink uncontrollably.
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Wow you guys. This went from being about missing ranks and a match making system which destroys the community aspects of the game to wanting more badges. Nice.
I was playing a match the other day. It was a horrible match, painful. Level 1 captain who didn't know how to turn right. The crew did the productive thing, complained in chat.
"This match is so painful!"
To which a MUSE replied, "But it's balanced!"
Hell, it was balanced. At 0-1 and ten minutes in, it must have been one of the most balanced matches I'd ever played it. And it sucked. Whats the point of balance if the captains selected run full stream ahead into a mountain and don't believe in turning? At least an unbalanced game doesn't last long.
People who have played less than 50 matches should be barred from captaining in experienced matches. How about a vote that allows a crew to pick their captain?
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I recently experienced how voting looks like. It's rather bad idea, and this might be even more frustrating...
But yeah, I must agree about the balance... it's tough to bare quite often...
I'd even say, that players with less than 50 matches should be banned from being captains at all. But honestly - will it REALLY help in anything? I suppose not.
Well in fact, our rage won't do a thing, because nobody's listening. My friend ragequited today, saying that he can't stand it.
I remember times, when I could go with more or less experienced crew, have fun in a lobby with silly people. Now most of those prematches things seem so quiet. Now I play only with my friends, because every fucking time matchmaker does it's job, it crew me with people running around, having no tactic nor skill.
I do not call this fun, and that's why I stopped going on novice matches at some point, coming back on them only for my first matches as a captain.
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There's four main things that i dislike with the current 1.3.8 and hotfix. It's a very drastic change and we have been accustomed and used to the old system and adapted to it but it's not fully possible to adapt to the matchmaking because it does not give you all the options to do so. While being in more or less a "wait and see" mode with the main big additions (pve and adv mode) being postponed, a change like this is tough to deal with.
1. The social change of the game. Lobbies turned into queing and timers in lobbies while players change are a disadvantage for ships that want to try organise their crews and team. I feel teamwork and cooperation is more difficult now than before. Teaching gets tiresome and moods get irritated. Yes, the lobbies are still there but the small changes in how they work don't benefit the social quality.
2. Balance. Like keyvias mentioned also, so i'm glad devs might have ideas for a fix to it. If players need to work their way up i'd still like to see that a player/real friend could be invited to any game.
3. Freedom of choice. We aren't given match alternatives to choose from (yes i know friendslist is there but the focus should be on public matchmaking without friends online from a "outside primetime" and "no friends online" perspective). I think the xp addition is ok, especially for those that don't focus so much on achievements.
We have lost too much of our choice so if the matchmaker is improved for better quality games it would compensate some of it.
4. Control. Please don't strip options and flexibility. Rather add possibility to name lobby, more than 3 maps to vote for and things that give us more control to help make the matches more enjoyable. I'm sure many ideas have been posted, mailed and put forward in some way or the other.
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I see many walls of text. Criticism, varied. Good points brought up.
I have a few ideas but I am not exactly sure whether it's just a passing thought to post in critical post or make a whole new topic for. If this isn't applicable or I have missed something important I will withdraw this; it would not be really important then.
Question: Would the development team ever consider having 2 types of lobbies?
I'm not quite sure where to post this. I'll put down my ideas elsewhere but if it's related to this patch I would rather put a link here.
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Schwalbe...first of all, you rock. It is awesome to see a new player as passionate about GOIO as I was when I first started out. Is a small part of the reason I still hang around. You've seen something with GOIO that no other game offers. The same thing I saw too. Course the game you love and the game I love are totally different breeds. I wish I could share it with you but all I can do is hope for some of that to return by keeping the memory alive. Think you'd see how fantastic GOIO truly is if you could have been with it then.
That said, give Muse a little benefit of the doubt. This isn't EA or Activision which is just a faceless company that could care less. Muse and I have a love/hate relationship but at the core of it I've recognized that they are decent people. Sure they screw up, and I haven't liked some big aspects the direction the game has gone in for a year or so, but they do make up for it in other ways. Its a small team. One which still takes time to address fans and actually play the game.
This was a mess for a lot of reasons. It thankfully didn't get added in it's original form, but still, a lot went wrong. I kinda wonder if it was rushed at the end here due to fact we're even having convos about stuff brought up awhile back. I've noticed that Muse often puts huge patches around sales or special events. Celebrity involvement/etc. Which makes sense as it drums up interest/etc. But there is a problem. When they do, we gain lots of people real fast but the game has some crippling problem caused by the patch which scares them away. Last year I'd say it was netcode problems. Then before that we had overloaded servers where Muse and CAs had to manually start all games till the fix was done. Sadly, when these things happen, folks don't come back again to see the game fixed. But they do get fixed. Gotta remember, small team so things take time. If you learn to give them some slack you tend to ride these periods out better than if you just uninstall and walk off.
You'll never get the same kind of treatment elsewhere, nor the gameplay. Heck they probably got a dart board with my face on it in their office for the number of times I've clashed with them over various things *cough* SQUID *cough*. Its frustrating as a player to have to endure some of this. Specially playing competitive where things get heated and one bug can ruin your entire month. But then you have moments or the devs do something right and you just go..."yeah I know, they're good people. Don't agree at times but...good people."
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So you are telling me, that things were much, much worse. I can't disagree, as I haven't witnessed them. Pardon me, if I don't get the full spectrum of your post, Gilder, because I feel little ill, BUT.
You mentioned some sick problems with matches in the past. Right. But as I understood, it was because something was screwed up there.
And now it seems the effects of matchmaking were desired by it's creators. Soooooo... the case is a bit different.
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True, but Muse is still here. Still responding. The fact that they acknowledge the problems and are admitting they are having meetings regarding what to do, says a lot more than what you'd get from others.
Heck EA, people cried for months regarding some of their games with no response or recognition they even were listening to their customers. Simcity for example. Took them over a year to add offline mode but it took months for them to finally admit the fans were right and they were changing it. With Muse its like..."IT SUCKS!!" "Ok we'll look into it."
Sometimes they bother with things that aren't as pressing and we wonder why the heck they are doing "such" when they should be doing "that." But we don't know where their team is at. How long beforehand they were working on something before finally coming out with it. The other problem more likely cropped up after they already had plans to fix another. When we get it we shake our heads thinking everything they do happens the moment we say it. They mentioned this in a fireside one time where they discussed the patching system and how they work with matters in advance.
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True, but Muse is still here. Still responding. The fact that they acknowledge the problems and are admitting they are having meetings regarding what to do, says a lot more than what you'd get from others.
Heck EA, people cried for months regarding some of their games with no response or recognition they even were listening to their customers. Simcity for example. Took them over a year to add offline mode but it took months for them to finally admit the fans were right and they were changing it. With Muse its like..."IT SUCKS!!" "Ok we'll look into it."
Sometimes they bother with things that aren't as pressing and we wonder why the heck they are doing "such" when they should be doing "that." But we don't know where their team is at. How long beforehand they were working on something before finally coming out with it. The other problem more likely cropped up after they already had plans to fix another. When we get it we shake our heads thinking everything they do happens the moment we say it. They mentioned this in a fireside one time where they discussed the patching system and how they work with matters in advance.
You sir have "Stockholm Syndrome " and that's all there is to it.
As for it being worse in the past. I disagree! I could still get a GOOD/FUN game even if the net code lagged. I could still get a great balanced lobby when the servers were screwy. I could still enjoy my time even with ships velcroing left right and center. I tried for days to get one single solitary balanced/fun match since that "patch" if you wish to call it that. Guess what! THHHAATTSS RIGHT SIR! I can't
I'll take ALLL the past screw ups over this match making any day of the week. Que up with full crew of friends? To bad your gunner is going to the enemy ship, your engineers are going to your allied ship and as for your ship? Yeah that's right you get three level 2 gunners to crew your ship.................
One more thing, What do you think is the end goal for Muse as far as being a company goes? What is the dream of all indie dev companies? To become the biggest and best and that happens to mean making the most money. Thus its inherent for muse to become "EAish" in due time.
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You've obviously never played a competitive GOIO game in your life. Especially not during the hell weeks. Game broken, ships warping across the screen, rubberbanding, target markers missing, velcroing into everything, disconnects and ref pauses every few mins, and casters blaming it on the competitors instead of on the broken game. You know how many teammates get fed up and quit under all that? Quite a few.
Why don't you go join a competitive team and see what its like, then come back and say something Mikey. Matchmaking is bad, but competitive can get around it for the time being and the netcode is still holding. Sure its a pain in the butt but it isn't last year. I'd rather have this, than have the year of putting up with that nonsense. This can be changed without breaking the game. Those things took forever to fix and broke the game often before they did fix them.
The outcry is large enough with this that Muse has to act one way or another. Railing at them more won't get the work done faster. Besides, I've said my piece regarding MM multiple times. Content now to just see where it goes. Anymore uproar can wait till after the next patch.
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One more thing, What do you think is the end goal for Muse as far as being a company goes? What is the dream of all indie dev companies? To become the biggest and best and that happens to mean making the most money. Thus its inherent for muse to become "EAish" in due time.
Speaking as myself, as a student of game development, separate from my relationship with Muse Games, I can tell you that almost nobody in this industry wants to become EA. Every developer and artist has ideas for something they want to do and what they want to see happen in the industry, and I can tell you that none of them would say "I want to make the same games over and over year after year and ignore all my players and customers". Developers are passionate about their ideas to the point of insanity. People ruin their lives trying to make their ideas come to life. It's always true that some decisions developers make have to be motivated by money, but only so much that they can keep doing what they love. I've know developers that have worked on tacked on features pushed by publishers. They hate it because they aren't making things they can be proud of. Making the most money isn't the "end goal" for people in the games industry. There is a lot more money in a lot easier jobs. The end goal is to make something awesome. Sure you need money, you need to make a living, but I could go work at a software developer and do that a lot easier, so there has to be something else keeping all these people in the video game field.
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One more thing, What do you think is the end goal for Muse as far as being a company goes? What is the dream of all indie dev companies? To become the biggest and best and that happens to mean making the most money. Thus its inherent for muse to become "EAish" in due time.
Speaking as myself, as a student of game development, separate from my relationship with Muse Games, I can tell you that almost nobody in this industry wants to become EA. Every developer and artist has ideas for something they want to do and what they want to see happen in the industry, and I can tell you that none of them would say "I want to make the same games over and over year after year and ignore all my players and customers". Developers are passionate about their ideas to the point of insanity. People ruin their lives trying to make their ideas come to life. It's always true that some decisions developers make have to be motivated by money, but only so much that they can keep doing what they love. I've know developers that have worked on tacked on features pushed by publishers. They hate it because they aren't making things they can be proud of. Making the most money isn't the "end goal" for people in the games industry. There is a lot more money in a lot easier jobs. The end goal is to make something awesome. Sure you need money, you need to make a living, but I could go work at a software developer and do that a lot easier, so there has to be something else keeping all these people in the video game field.
OH IS THAT SO? If that is the case then you wont mind refunding Me, my three cousins, and a handful of friends. Right? Since money isn't a big concern of yours it wouldn't be a big deal to fork out of your own pocket to refund us then? Since you know you want to be as far from EA as possible you wouldn't mind doing this at all. In fact you feel obligated to refunding me right? I mean only some big bad wolf company like EA wouldn't dream of using their own pockets to refund those who demand it. ::)
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OH IS THAT SO? If that is the case then you wont mind refunding Me, my three cousins, and a handful of friends. Right? Since money isn't a big concern of yours it wouldn't be a big deal to fork out of your own pocket to refund us then? Since you know you want to be as far from EA as possible you wouldn't mind doing this at all. In fact you feel obligated to refunding me right? I mean only some big bad wolf company like EA wouldn't dream of using their own pockets to refund those who demand it. ::)
So hostile. You're practically waving your fists in his face asking for your money back.
I've been hearing that another hotfix is coming up but when can we expect that? Seems the game has been changing a great deal in just a few weeks.
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OH IS THAT SO? If that is the case then you wont mind refunding Me, my three cousins, and a handful of friends. Right? Since money isn't a big concern of yours it wouldn't be a big deal to fork out of your own pocket to refund us then? Since you know you want to be as far from EA as possible you wouldn't mind doing this at all. In fact you feel obligated to refunding me right? I mean only some big bad wolf company like EA wouldn't dream of using their own pockets to refund those who demand it. ::)
Listen, pal. Personally I think this patch was a great mistake. I do, you can tell from my previous posts. But implying sth like
You don't want be like EA => You don't care about money (at all!) => Give me my money back
Is just below any critique. I only hope this is just 'ad absurdum' argument, but still... Don't be THAT guy
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OH IS THAT SO? If that is the case then you wont mind refunding Me, my three cousins, and a handful of friends. Right? Since money isn't a big concern of yours it wouldn't be a big deal to fork out of your own pocket to refund us then? Since you know you want to be as far from EA as possible you wouldn't mind doing this at all. In fact you feel obligated to refunding me right? I mean only some big bad wolf company like EA wouldn't dream of using their own pockets to refund those who demand it. ::)
YEAH! Damn those greedy devs who tricked you into buying their product you've only enjoyed for more than hundred hours so far for a price of less than a meal! Daylight Robbery!
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*smirk* I really love how this thread went from constructive criticism about the game to saying Muse should go die in a hole.
I don't have anything personal to contribute in terms of feedback though since I haven't gotten on recently enough for the newest hotfix though. From what people are saying, I'm guessing for improvement the matchmaking should place people into ship positions and then search, allowing pilots to search for a pilot spot, gunners to search for a crew spot, and an entire ship to look for a game with an empty ship slot.
Just a reminder that the game doesn't improve if everyone gets up and leaves, only if everyone gets up and says what should be in the next patch.
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Again, I'm just a former intern and that post is of my own opinion. If you would like a refund for the game, please contact feedback@musegames.com and they should be able to get you sorted out.