Author Topic: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches  (Read 57450 times)

Offline Spud Nick

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2014, 02:02:17 pm »
So if somone could shout out what counters gat mortar pyra i would be all ears ^.^ ill perfect that build

Junkers as demonstrated by the Mandarins easily counter pyras.

Though very much out of favor these days, one single well crewed asymmetrical Galleon with a coordinated escort ship like the Paddling used to run will rip to pieces a gat mortar pyra.  It's been a long time since I've played competitively but when I did I pretty much always saw pyras as easy Galleon kills and picked on any pyras we faced to win matches.

I've always seen pyramidions as easy targets too. Too bad that everyone in the haephestus challenge seems to be scared to use anything but pyras.

Some ships are easier to crew on than others.

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2014, 02:49:50 pm »
So if somone could shout out what counters gat mortar pyra i would be all ears ^.^ ill perfect that build

Junkers as demonstrated by the Mandarins easily counter pyras.

Though very much out of favor these days, one single well crewed asymmetrical Galleon with a coordinated escort ship like the Paddling used to run will rip to pieces a gat mortar pyra.  It's been a long time since I've played competitively but when I did I pretty much always saw pyras as easy Galleon kills and picked on any pyras we faced to win matches.

I've always seen pyramidions as easy targets too. Too bad that everyone in the haephestus challenge seems to be scared to use anything but pyras.

Some ships are easier to crew on than others.

True, but it's unfortunate that the meta is about what is easiest rather than most effective. Especially since people claim these competitive matches are "the highest level of play" in this game.

Offline Imagine

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2014, 03:32:54 pm »
So if somone could shout out what counters gat mortar pyra i would be all ears ^.^ ill perfect that build

Junkers as demonstrated by the Mandarins easily counter pyras.

Though very much out of favor these days, one single well crewed asymmetrical Galleon with a coordinated escort ship like the Paddling used to run will rip to pieces a gat mortar pyra.  It's been a long time since I've played competitively but when I did I pretty much always saw pyras as easy Galleon kills and picked on any pyras we faced to win matches.

I've always seen pyramidions as easy targets too. Too bad that everyone in the haephestus challenge seems to be scared to use anything but pyras.

Some ships are easier to crew on than others.

True, but it's unfortunate that the meta is about what is easiest rather than most effective. Especially since people claim these competitive matches are "the highest level of play" in this game.
Time and time again it's been shown that meta is what's most effective with the least amount of drawbacks.

Offline Dutch Vanya

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2014, 04:33:36 pm »
Time and time again it's been shown that meta is what's most effective with the least amount of drawbacks.
Fair enough, i guess something being easy does make it consistently effective.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2014, 04:52:17 pm »
I think something to consider is the state of many of the clans right now. "Restructuring" or some variant of that word was the most common thing clan leaders told me when I was trying to get people on board for the HC. Most of the teams in there are fairly fresh on the scene or new players with some older guidance. HRA, a combination fo the fairly new Holy team and the quite new SPQR have been unstoppable. Cake and Muse have been pulling off major upsets. OVW and Ducks are both new pilots and crews. SIR and SAC are kicking into high gear. I think as we go along, we will see higher diversity of ships as teams get more and more solid and have to come up with new ways to beat each other. Personally for the Ducks we're seeing the Clamour transition away from their early pyramidion builds and switching over to Junkers and they've been practicing Galleons and Goldies as well.


The solution to the great pyra flood is not some weird double blind system added to lobbies or a draft system. The solution is for teams to continue to solidify and take their game to the next level. Pyras are fine but people just need to trust other ships more.

Offline Queso

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2014, 05:00:19 pm »
Well I think a more formalized draft or blind system for tournaments is something important for long-time life of competitive play. If it means fewer double pyra builds than that is a different discussion. However the  informal system that just kind of happens in lobbies before a match is potentially problematic if more teams decide to abuse most tournaments lack of structure in this regard.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2014, 05:52:59 pm »
When you say abuse you mean what?

Changing ships quickly?

Offline Queso

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2014, 06:20:24 pm »
Abuse may not be the right term. But if two ships enter a lobby and nobody is counter picking, and then somebody does it with a second left on the timer, it's not exactly sportsmanlike conduct. Now if a tournament has no policy on that sort of behavior and a tournament director doesn't like it, there is not really anything they can do.

All I'm saying is that if tournament directors are okay with this behavior they should be explicit about it's legality. If they aren't okay with it, they need to come up with a better system.

Offline Imagine

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2014, 06:45:06 pm »
As it's been said, forcing blind picks will only serve to increase metamidion usage because you'd want the safest option available.

Offline Urz

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2014, 08:25:54 pm »
FYI the Sky Tournament I ran over a year ago had blind picks. The team captain would submit their loadouts via a Google Docs form 5 minutes before their match. It went pretty smoothly, although I ended up not using it in future events.

form: https://i.imgur.com/Ltt4FBF.png
spreadsheet: https://i.imgur.com/T7o9xCB.png
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 09:04:17 pm by Urz »

Offline Mezhu

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #70 on: June 27, 2014, 06:14:21 am »
I've always seen pyramidions as easy targets too. Too bad that everyone in the haephestus challenge seems to be scared to use anything but pyras.

Too bad you didn't sign for haephastus yourself.


OT: I don't see why all the big deal over nothing. I have yet to see a team do this 'last 5 second swap' that you speak of, I'll certainly be more watchfull now that you mention it though. Although I think any half-serious clan doing this in any half-serious competitive setting would be marked and shamed for life. As for people insisting on blind pick, such a system would just terribly undermine build and theory crafting and insert an RNG element to a game that's otherwise solely based on skill and communication. Builds and meta progress due to the need to adapt to your enemy.

Offline Grayknight

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #71 on: June 27, 2014, 07:36:24 am »
I seem to remember an event a while ago where a team tried that last second switch against us, and had their loadouts promptly fail.

They asked for a restart because they screwed up their tomfoolery. The answer from us was no. They lost. Badly.

Teams trying that will find out quickly that it might work once, but it will likely fail a hundred times over; when it fails, opponents will not be forgiving. We weren't, and I wouldn't expect others to be forgiving to us if we tried it (not that I can ever see us trying it).


Offline Omniraptor

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #72 on: June 27, 2014, 12:31:03 pm »
As for people insisting on blind pick, such a system would just terribly undermine build and theory crafting and insert an RNG element to a game that's otherwise solely based on skill and communication. Builds and meta progress due to the need to adapt to your enemy.

It's only RNG if you're rolling dice to pick buids, and I don't think anyone is advocating that.

If you're trying to figure out what your opponent will pick and then figure out how to counter it, that's build and theorycrafting. It's just a little harder than countering what you KNOW your opponent has picked, but it leaves a lot of room for interesting mind-games.

Offline RomanKar

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2014, 01:10:40 pm »

OT: I don't see why all the big deal over nothing. I have yet to see a team do this 'last 5 second swap' that you speak of, I'll certainly be more watchfull now that you mention it though. Although I think any half-serious clan doing this in any half-serious competitive setting would be marked and shamed for life. As for people insisting on blind pick, such a system would just terribly undermine build and theory crafting and insert an RNG element to a game that's otherwise solely based on skill and communication. Builds and meta progress due to the need to adapt to your enemy.

This is where I have a bit of a problem.  You don't think people should be doing last second ship swaps, but you also think ship swapping is an inherent part of the game.  So when in a 5 minute timer is it considered too late to be swapping so I may avoid being marked and shamed?  Is 2 minutes too long to wait?  Or how many ship swaps am I allowed before it's too many?

What I'm starting to hear from a lot of people is that ship swapping can be sneaky and unsportsmanlike, unless you do it in an acceptable way, well, cuz I like to ship swap, or loadout swap depending on the opponent's loadout. 

This is a huge grey area.  Tournaments in the future need to have some rules governing this area of the game.  I think the best option is to have each tournament decide which rules to take.  But each tournament should have some rules, not just a timer.

Offline Queso

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Re: Ship swapping in Lobby before competitive matches
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2014, 01:47:54 pm »
This is a huge grey area.  Tournaments in the future need to have some rules governing this area of the game.  I think the best option is to have each tournament decide which rules to take.  But each tournament should have some rules, not just a timer.

Exactly. If it's not in the tourney rules, then it's completely up in the air.