Author Topic: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2  (Read 31780 times)

Offline Nidh

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2013, 11:27:19 am »
@Smolett what if the other team had 2 blenderfish and got the upper hand on both of your team's ships. Who would help who on your team?

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2013, 11:35:34 am »
Any gun can seem OP when the other side isn't doing all they can to stop you. I could use a flak fish then, lol.

For the Hwacha: I want to say it was nerfed earlier on because of an increase to engine repair times. I think the aoe was reduced to stop people disabling things from miles away with less than perfect shots. That was also with old heavy clip though, so testing a small increase to the rocket aoe couldn't hurt then.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2013, 11:39:58 am »
Fighting two blenderfish is quite easy if your team is paying attention.  The easiest solution would be for each ship on your team to take a front mounted mercury or equivalent disabler to deny the blenderfish use of their weaponry. 

Should you find yourselves both being blended without having killed a ship first, then formation flying begins to take a prominent role in your defense.  Both pilots should have obviously brought drogue chute to extend the length of the engagement and should both be flying extremely close to one another (less than 300 M apart).  While both ships are descending there will be a height differential in the engagements.  At this point whichever ship is highest can fire its weaponry at the ship that's blending its ally, either disabling the weaponry of the ship blending their teammate or outright killing it.  Blending takes so long that these height differentials will manifest shots for each ship frequently eventually killing one blenderfish and allowing the team to 2v1 the remaining ship.

The idea of two blenderfish seems to be extremely overpowered, but in practice, not nearly as good as they would seem.  The length of time it takes them to make kills and the vulnerability should they make the slightest of errors makes the strategy not nearly as powerful as comparable strategies.  The lack of actual double blender use in goi reflects this reality.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2013, 11:44:30 am »
I'm not convinced the hwacha needs more aoe, since any hit anywhere near the intended component will make a part destruct.

There was a suggestion in another thread of making the heavy clip reduce spread by 90% instead of 100% so that the hwacha would spread around a bit on its own to make it easier to use.  It's obvious that the skill needed to use the gun greatly increased after the heavy clip change, however the reward for said skill was also increased as shown in competition by several different merry men gunners and gungineers.

Offline Nidh

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2013, 11:50:09 am »
Now suppose you were flying a blenderfish, but for some reason either you didn't see what your ally brought or he switched at the last second. Now you both have blenderfish. How would you beat yourself on the other team? You wouldn't just say, welp I can beat this double blender so easily I'll just give up I guess. Considering the fact that one blenderfish on it's own can lock down the balloon of two ships with good coordination, I don't think countering double Blenderfish is as easy as you think.

Offline Nidh

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2013, 11:55:55 am »
I'm not convinced the hwacha needs more aoe, since any hit anywhere near the intended component will make a part destruct.

This is simply not true, far too many times have shots been "anywhere near" the intended componant to be disabled, and nothing was.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2013, 12:05:46 pm »
I'm not convinced the hwacha needs more aoe, since any hit anywhere near the intended component will make a part destruct.

This is simply not true, far too many times have shots been "anywhere near" the intended componant to be disabled, and nothing was.

Was that on a pyra?  Pyra front gun hit boxes are wonky, everything else gets destroyed pretty easily by accuate hwacha fire.

Now suppose you were flying a blenderfish, but for some reason either you didn't see what your ally brought or he switched at the last second. Now you both have blenderfish. How would you beat yourself on the other team? You wouldn't just say, welp I can beat this double blender so easily I'll just give up I guess. Considering the fact that one blenderfish on it's own can lock down the balloon of two ships with good coordination, I don't think countering double Blenderfish is as easy as you think.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're trying to say here but when it comes to my experience, like most things in goi, if one team has two blenderfish and one team doesn't, the team with the best teamwork and coordination will win. 

I don't see double blenderfish as inherently overpowered in any way and in my opinion it has easily exploitable weaknesses that could be taken advantage of by an astute team.

Offline Captain Blueberry

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2013, 12:13:41 pm »
It seems like Carronades are the new Field Guns lol.

It even gets ironic when you realize that the Field gun is a hard counter  :D

The idea of two blenderfish seems to be extremely overpowered, but in practice, not nearly as good as they would seem... The lack of actual double blender use in goi reflects this reality.
pretty much that.

I don't think the Carronades are overpowered. I think the reason we see some people complaining about it is that you can run a successful blenderfish with marginal skill on both pilot and crew. And as others said before, getting killed by it takes frustrating time in which you can't really do anything but extend the time you have left. You can't react. Countering it takes a little more effort, a little more knowledge and a little more teamwork. It is extremely effective, it just requires a bit more effort on your end.

GOIO also need ships like the blenderfish and the Pyra, those are very rewarding ships for beginners, ships that will hook 'em up for more.

Then we have had totally different experiences with a Hwacha-fish. I can kill and disable quite handily, especially because I can control my engagement so well with a Goldfish over a Spire or Galleon. It kills very well when hitting bare hull (time it like flak) and can wreak havoc on ships.
Yeah you are right, totally different experiences then ;). I never piloted nor served on a successfull Hwachafish. I would like to see you fly.

Offline Nidh

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2013, 12:16:48 pm »
Yes mostly on a Pyra, but I didn't know about the hitbox thing. Then I revise my statement, "Please fix the Pyra hitboxes."

The best team will win, I agree, but the Carronade relies on less teamwork to be successful, wherein I think lies the problem. I see the Carronade as a support weapon, and as such I think it should rely much more on an ally to be able to do any kind of permanent damage. Like I said earlier, it's fine if it can lock down both ships, but it's a problem when it can lock down both ships AND kill them.

Rather I should say the ability to kill on it's own is not right imo... the clever and skillful use of light weaponry to compliment a supporting weapon should be rewarded.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 12:20:25 pm by Nidh »

Offline Letus

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2013, 03:01:06 pm »
I never had an issue against the Carronade.
What people don't seem to realize is that the Goldfish is a one gunner ship, meaning...you can shoot everything off the goldfish, but if that gun is still on, it's gonna keep shooting....unlike previous Metas...such as Pyramidions or old Carronade - Flame Squids, where if you blow everything off those ships, they lose  their fire power quite effectively.

Have I played against Double blenders?  Yes.  Have I got womped?  Yes.  Did I beat that combo, too?  Yes.  Fun thing about the heavy carronade is that you can shoot out the other heavy carronade, which should be the priority first since that will give the enemy blender no offense for a few seconds, force an engineer on the gun perhaps, and you can take out that balloon before that carronade gets back up, just in time for you to shoot it out again.

I've beaten double blenders with a Lumberjack (hit them hard before they get to you)...mines...Carronade-Flame Squids, heavy gat-mortar/flak pyramids....

The reason why you see so many blenderfish, and this is in my opinion, is because we still see a lot of close-range brawlers, even though they gave the mortar a max-distance, I still see a lot of gat-flak Pyramids, and a Blender (or a Carronade-flamer squid) is one of the easiest things to use against those.  Since they're going to be upclose and personal, you'd want a ship that can be just as up-close, and more maneuverable.

Other opinion is because I don't think many new pilots know about different engagement lengths and what suits best, or that even those "sniper" weapons with arm times can be just as up-close of a combat weapon with the right gunner skills...but probably the first as I still see a ton of new pilots treat a lumberfish as a battery-ram...



....
They could make it so the Lumberjack has no arm time again~ that can be your counter~

Offline awkm

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2013, 07:06:36 pm »
The hitboxes on the pyramidion are not broken.  They're just misleading.

What happens is that if you look at pyramidion dead in the eyes (triangle!?) and try to shoot its top guns out, what can happen is that you miss and fire right underneath the gun's hitbox and hit the hull/balloon right behind the gun.  This will cause a hit indicator to show up where you hit... right behind the gun, but since hit indicators draw on top of the entire ship it just looks like you hit the gun.

We're looking into a variety of solutions for this including increasing the hitbox on guns slightly etc...  Still experimenting.

Offline Sprayer

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2013, 07:08:22 pm »
It's mostly bc the carros are affected by your platforms movement and you missing even though your aim is where the gun would be if it was in drawdistance.

Offline Queso

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2013, 10:49:58 pm »
If you are trying to kill entirely with a carronade it's going to take a while. I usually use one to take a ship out of a fight for a short period. Then my team can focus a single ship at a time. Also drogue chute buys you HUGE amounts of time against a blender.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2013, 12:10:14 pm »
Any gun can seem OP when the other side isn't doing all they can to stop you. I could use a flak fish then, lol.

For the Hwacha: I want to say it was nerfed earlier on because of an increase to engine repair times. I think the aoe was reduced to stop people disabling things from miles away with less than perfect shots. That was also with old heavy clip though, so testing a small increase to the rocket aoe couldn't hurt then.

Wait, was it not that the point of the hwacha? Being a good disabler or, zone denier from long range?

The easiest solution would be for each ship on your team to take a front mounted mercury or equivalent disabler to deny the blenderfish use of their weaponry. 


That is a bit too much of a counter. On a spire, i have to choose a Carronade to counter a blender fish. Mostly because the pub wont be able to merc the weapon off i changed it to the mortar. THEN i noticed the goldfish brought a lumberjack the last second.  Tell me if the carronade is not so good it almost determines a battle at the very start. Not implying it that strongly.

If you are trying to kill entirely with a carronade it's going to take a while.

Get the gunner of the twin carronade to use lochnager on the hull when the baloon is down. Its gonna do bunch. It is also allready a good hull armor and health destroyer. Doesnt take me a while at all.



Other opinion is because I don't think many new pilots know about different engagement lengths and what suits best


That is also true, but dont deny the fact that if the choice between a hwacha and the carronade, and the carronade seems to do better because well, both guns for the goldfish requier it to be close range for full effeciency, but which gun prooves to be more effective? Thats the issue.



My input again is baloons being taken down too quickly and how hard it is to repair it. Then the fact that the baloon AND hull go down like buttah when shot by carronades of any kind constantly.

Offline awkm

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Re: GUNS and GUN SKILLS Balance v1.3.2
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2013, 05:44:11 pm »
Can we move the meta and strategy discussion somewhere else, please?

This thread if for bringing up things that are potentially broken.