Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: awkm on September 19, 2013, 02:48:53 pm
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BOOM.
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Hades -> nice
banshee buff awesome!
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The Hades is so cool, it feels like shooting flaming cannon balls
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BECAUSE THEY ARE FLAMING CANNON BALLS
PUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
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But actually the hades model is a bid akward. Its supposed to hit at long to midrange but its model fills up ur screen so hard u can barely see an enemy ship behind it.
I love that broken meta. gat mortar isnt that strong anymore.
Edit: made a mistake. meant the hades not the artemis.
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Yeah, that viewshield makes it really hard to lead targets that are moving from the right to left.
+1,5s on the Hellhound reloadspeed is... kind of a really radical change. I don't know why its reloadspeed even got nerfed.
Like the Hades, especially like the Hades/Flak new mid-longrange combo to do kills. A yay for a flak that does not share a niche in that it is being outperformed by a dozen times.
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Why won't it let me edit my post anymore?
Since fires became more prominent now, I wonder how much damage they deal. Somewhere (I believe in the archives, not sure) I found the statement each fire deals 8 base plus 2 additional damage per second per stack. Is that still true? Are the damagemodifieres for firedamage applied on the fires too?
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Why won't it let me edit my post anymore?
30 minute timer on post edits.
Since fires became more prominent now, I wonder how much damage they deal. Somewhere (I believe in the archives, not sure) I found the statement each fire deals 8 base plus 2 additional damage per second per stack. Is that still true? Are the damagemodifieres for firedamage applied on the fires too?
That is correct. And the modifiers are applied.
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I see in the descriptions for Heatsink and Incendiary a few...numbers
Heatsink being -20% projectile speed, and Incendiary being -25% projectile speed; however, that is not the case...
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Oh regarding this, I am sure the tooltips for Incendiary and Heatsink were changed, not so sure on Incendiary though. I think Incendiary used to do -25% RoF and Heatsink used to do -20% dmg, -30% projectile speed (used to be the highest reduction)
If those values were changed, it was definitely missed in the patch logs.
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I have a theory for this.
They ninja change usually at least one tool a patch to see if we're paying attention...
Well, haya! We are paying attention!
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Yeah, heatsink appears to have gotten its damage modifier changed from -25% to -17%. Funnily enough, that makes it get the highest damage per clip (+buff) on some guns (like heavy carro).
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Before I get around to checking out the new balance and performance and just, just gotta say...
This new gun. Is the best gun EVAR! Fucking self-igniting flaming cannonballs of doom. <3
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I do not agree with how the flak has been modified. Now it is still a weaker weapon than the mortar (which has a damage buff no less) and it's even more likely that the hull armor is up before the necessary amount of rounds are expended.
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The light flak has way more velocity, precision and rate of fire. Three seconds of fire and one second of travel time easily allow a 1 clip kill on all but the goldfish, galleon or squid. In what way do you think it should be improved?
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I think the light flak is in a much more viable place now, especially when paired with the magma cannon. Both have an arming time, and both are great at range with the flak's improved accuracy and the magma's reach. The light flak also mimic's it's older brother more, which is a plus.
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The light flak has way more velocity, precision and rate of fire. Three seconds of fire and one second of travel time easily allow a 1 clip kill on all but the goldfish, galleon or squid. In what way do you think it should be improved?
I'd like to see it back to its previous damage(per shot) or at least have it improved half way. And no, without buffing(I haven't tested this with buffing) you cannot kill the goldfish, galleon or squid. Those ships all have more hp than the practice dummy. And bringing us back to the mortar: more damage per shot, more shots and an easier arc as it is now. So that thing kills within 8 shots, that's half its clip.
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One clip of light flak (not buffed no ammo) deals actual 630 dmg to a unarmored hull.
If we now take ammo into consideration it probably can kill most ships within one clip.
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One clip of light flak (not buffed no ammo) deals actual 630 dmg to a unarmored hull.
If we now take ammo into consideration it probably can kill most ships within one clip.
Now go to the ship list and point out to me which ship has less than 630 hp.
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One clip of light flak (not buffed no ammo) deals actual 630 dmg to a unarmored hull.
If we now take ammo into consideration it probably can kill most ships within one clip.
Now go to the ship list and point out to me which ship has less than 630 hp.
Don't forget the buff hammer and other ammo types...
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Hm ok i should have done the total match b4. I expected you to get over 700 dmg with charged but its just 682. The pyra has 700 health so u need to add some dmg with ur secondary weapon. If thats a gat that makes 6 extra shots from the gat. Caught me a bid there ^^.
With buff its actually 818 dmg. So you can kill a ship with one clip if you get the right timing and so on. Cause pyra has 700 and spire has 750.
Oh and according to some patch notes the mob has actually 600 Hull health ... ;).
Not sure how high the armor values are for the rest of ships but the squid got just 220.
Would assume sth in the 400-450. That would give you the posibility to kill a enemy instantly at a range of 600 (possible to hit every shot i think) if you get to point two mercs and a light flak at the enemy. And thats sth a mob or even a good team can do.
But well its much of theory here.
Its the point if you want the flak to fit the same role as the mortar or not.
Yes the flak needs a buff. But i think its not the dmg that needs one. I say its the range. Get it to sth 1500+ and it is a good sniper weapon. It doesnt have to do the same as the mortar. Kill in one clip. In the case its a real sniper weapon and not just have double the range of the mortar thats fine. At least for me ...
A sniper doesnt have to kill with one clip. That would be pretty unfair if you ask me.
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I like the new Banshee. Feels much more effective.
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Hm ok i should have done the total match b4. I expected you to get over 700 dmg with charged but its just 682. The pyra has 700 health so u need to add some dmg with ur secondary weapon. If thats a gat that makes 6 extra shots from the gat. Caught me a bid there ^^.
With buff its actually 818 dmg. So you can kill a ship with one clip if you get the right timing and so on. Cause pyra has 700 and spire has 750.
Oh and according to some patch notes the mob has actually 600 Hull health ... ;).
Not sure how high the armor values are for the rest of ships but the squid got just 220.
Would assume sth in the 400-450. That would give you the posibility to kill a enemy instantly at a range of 600 (possible to hit every shot i think) if you get to point two mercs and a light flak at the enemy. And thats sth a mob or even a good team can do.
But well its much of theory here.
Its the point if you want the flak to fit the same role as the mortar or not.
Yes the flak needs a buff. But i think its not the dmg that needs one. I say its the range. Get it to sth 1500+ and it is a good sniper weapon. It doesnt have to do the same as the mortar. Kill in one clip. In the case its a real sniper weapon and not just have double the range of the mortar thats fine. At least for me ...
A sniper doesnt have to kill with one clip. That would be pretty unfair if you ask me.
There's already the artemis for that range. The damage buff by itself still means the ship can be repaired in time before a full clip can be fired meaning that effectively, you'd be more likely to get 4 proper hits(like it was in the previous patch) unless they have more hull armor, which where you can get like 5 or maybe 6. Furthermore, having to go through all the effort of special rounds, buffing and getting the right distance due to arming time, only adds to why the mortar is staying the superior choice for everyone (and their mother). The gun is easier to aim, but it just doesn't kill anything.
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Wait do i understand you right?
You agree that it shouldnt outright kill in one clip?
It now has a maxdmg of 682. Already killing the mob instantly and probably the squid. If you add just a little bid to that you already break the 700 needed for the pyra and 50 more then you break the spire.
You cant buff its dmg without giving it a instagib potential for most of the ships.
And yeah i always forgot about the artemis explosive dmg. But the Artemis has 60 explosive dmg. Thats less dmg than the flak has which already instagibs some ships. If you buff the flak to hard it will totally outperform the mortar cause of its instagib potential. Maybe lower the range of the mortar again to allow the flak a wider window of good use. Im not sure at this but still i think buffing the flak dmg would be to much.
The poblem of the gun arent its stats. Its the niche people think it has to fit and i fear even muse isnt sure what the gun is supposed to do. Or at least i dont understand what they want the gun to do.
It needs a big enough niche where it can perform and not like now overlap so hard with the mortar.
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Artemis actually does 70 explosive damage per shot.
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Oh yeah used the dmg matrix numbers and didnt confirm with the latest patch notes.
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I'm just here to adulate the devs for their latest patch. I really enjoy the changes so far. Apparently you've managed to eliminate the deadly gat+mortar/flak combo we've seen way too often for the last months without crowning an obvious new meta build. Judging based on my ingame experience since the last patch, there seems to be a way richer diversity of ship builds now and I think it's safe to state that we've currently got more viable fleet setups than we've ever had before (at least since may, when I started to play this game). So here's an attaboy to whoever is responsible for the latest balance changes - keep up the good work!
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So many viable fun builds to play now. I just played a junker with front artemis and artemis/gat on the side and I enjoyed it. It didn't kill as fast but it is a viable build against the 1 1/2 ships like pyra/goldfish.
In Short: the Game has just become even more interesting, thank you!
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Diverse build = Fun. That's why I never flew meta XD
I'm glad people are starting to realize this.
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I say its the range. Get it to sth 1500+ and it is a good sniper weapon. It doesnt have to do the same as the mortar. Kill in one clip. In the case its a real sniper weapon and not just have double the range of the mortar thats fine. At least for me ...
A sniper doesnt have to kill with one clip. That would be pretty unfair if you ask me.
The flak is currently capable of two clip kills at 1700 M range with lesmok, it is an incredible long range weapon.
I'm not convinced that the light flak is underpowered but I do think it's useful to have the conversation since it is certainly still underutilized.
Here are two things that I think could make the gun more attractive to players without it losing it's niche or overpowering it:
Increase firing speed - I'd personally like to see a slight rate of fire increase on the gun (so that it's somewhere around 2.25-3 shots per second). It would help solidify its position as the dependable precision finisher; enabling the gun to fire quicker could help ensure gunners get their shots into narrow kill windows on ships.
Decrease the arming distance - Admittedly I'm a bit biased here as I've always been on the fence about arming time for the flak however that debate aside; 300 meters is a considerable arm time, and I think more than the gun deserves.
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I say its the range. Get it to sth 1500+ and it is a good sniper weapon. It doesnt have to do the same as the mortar. Kill in one clip. In the case its a real sniper weapon and not just have double the range of the mortar thats fine. At least for me ...
A sniper doesnt have to kill with one clip. That would be pretty unfair if you ask me.
The flak is currently capable of two clip kills at 1700 M range with lesmok, it is an incredible long range weapon.
I'm not convinced that the light flak is underpowered but I do think it's useful to have the conversation since it is certainly still underutilized.
Here are two things that I think could make the gun more attractive to players without it losing it's niche or overpowering it:
Increase firing speed - I'd personally like to see a slight rate of fire increase on the gun (so that it's somewhere around 2.25-3 shots per second). It would help solidify its position as the dependable precision finisher; enabling the gun to fire quicker could help ensure gunners get their shots into narrow kill windows on ships.
Decrease the arming distance - Admittedly I'm a bit biased here as I've always been on the fence about arming time for the flak however that debate aside; 300 meters is a considerable arm time, and I think more than the gun deserves.
Conversely, I think the hades has a too-short arming time for its intended role (long-range piercing and some disabling).
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The carronades are now a bane. Every goldfish gets a silver black dual cannon infront of their ships. Or every squid has 2 carronades.
And the damage that it does alone works better at times taking out the hull armor and health.
The shatter damage is a bit too much. It is not often that i see components braking by the carronade, i see more components disabled by the hwacha, and the hwacha still has problems. For some odd reason i cant disable the pyras guns. I heavy clipped a full barrage on those guns yet 4 or 5 hits from a hwacha could disable 2 guns. But on the pyra, nothing.
It probably has something to do with its front ram. It either absorbs too much dmg or it has a weird hitbox.
I tested mines on the pyra, and other ships. What i found out that the pyras front ram takes in a good deal of the front hitbox. If the mines hits aprox inbetween the front ram, a bit lower or on the actual ram then it recieves 40% of the mines damage, if it actually hits the hull, like it has to almost be going down at the mine then it is 100%.
Tested this on every other ship and no other ship has this problem. Maybe something to check on.
Other than that, i still think carronades are a bit too strong. Every baloon is universal, they take soo long to repair. Even for a very small ship. I also dont know why the logic for flachette to transfer over to the hull when the baloon is down. It just plainly makes the carronades a baloon and hull killing weapons. Hitting the ground is bad enough.
To add: I honestly dont know the design of having to change ammo on reload. Wouldnt it be great if it were possible to simply put ammo into a weapon from outside and then it automaticly reloads to that ammo type and stays that ammo type until wasted or reloaded again unto something else. But only dooable if no one is on the gun ofcourse.
This makes gunners to me very bad for just that reason. I would only accept gunners on heavy weapon ships but even on those i still feel like considering tripple engineers. Would be awesome if the ammo types and how you use them would change a bit to make gunners play a better role.
Saturating the ammo types is a great start. Like the lesmok nerf made lesmok exactly what it is intended for. "Wanna shoot something far away? use lesmok" For ammo types like the greased is not conrasted enough from Charged. It depends on the gun ofcourse, but compare other ammo types with eachother. Fire ammo vs greased, its not too different other than a different effect, and greased would have more benefitt for more weapons. Lochnagar vs Charged. Only 2 guns use lochnagar to its extent and that is the twin carronade and the heavy flak. While charged can be applied to almost all weapons. Having a great effect.
If you make them very different, there would be more uses for the ammo types. For example, heavy clip is almost a must on gattling, while the potential for default gattling shots can be better than heavy, but greased gattling should be devestating to the hull, but fire ammo should be chaotic, charged should force the gattling to be really strong but then it would be forced to get very close. etc...
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Carronades already have many limitations, their range is too short, their downwards arc is very limited and their spread without Heavy Clip is still gross at near max range which forces the gun to rely on it until it further closes in.
Also can people please stop complaining about the damn gun? The Heavy carronade got a whooping 1.5 extra seconds to its reload time and it used to have the fastest reload in the whole game, chill your beans people.
And the extra shatter damage it got is actually just about 10 more damage per shot to the hull, it's previous 220 could still one-shot any component so I don't get what's wrong with it.
Damage transfer doesn't have ANYTHING to do with Flechette damage, the carronade simply fires multiple pellets, so the remaining pellets hit the hull if the balloon is destroyed.
I'd like to point out that I agree with Smollett on the Light Flak's arming time, it's a bit too long right now, could use some slight shortening to make the weapon more attractive.
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While I agree the Carronade is a bit too powerful, I don't feel very good using it on my Goldie, I just can't see any other viable brawling weapon for the Goldfish that actually makes it a threat. Granted, the hwacha is easy to point and shoot, but to actually DO anything useful with a hwacha is much harder than it might seem, on a Goldfish anyway. If the carronade were to take some nerf I would strongly suggest for at least one new heavy weapon that fulfills the brawling role, or buff the hwacha to make it easier to disable at mid range. The reason I ask for a new heavy weapon is the same reason that the Gatling was used so heavily, there were no other mid/close range piercing weapons.
Just to be clear though, I think the Carronade SHOULD have the ability to lockdown a ship from the fight, but only ONE ship. Currently it is able to lockdown both with some good coordination. It's killing power is also little high for that job, I feel like any support/disabling ship should be able to it's job very well, but need an ally to actually finish off the opponent within a reasonable amount of time. This is also why I think the hwacha needs a small buff, it can't kill very well on it's own AND it has a very hard time doing it's job (disabling) well.
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Without going into too much detail tonight:
Carronades are fine. Yea, it's probably one of the most annoying ways to die, but that just comes with the territory. Exploit its arcs, range, and balloon dependency. It can't damage bare hull quickly, and it literally throws the target outside its own arcs unless the pilot is good.
My understanding of the balloon/hull damage transfer is this: Balloon goes down. Any damage that is then done to the destroyed balloon, is transferred to the hull. This is why carronades are the true Achilles heel for Junkers. It has always been that way and really I can't see a need to change it.
Goldie just needs a new medium gun to play with. Flak fish isnt great (better now but not good enough), and lumberfish is very situational. Leaves you with two solid options, and it takes away from it a little.
Happy debating.
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I don't think the Hwacha is a useful gun for the Goldfish.
It can't kill and it takes longer to effectively disable. For me the Carronade is the better disabler, now more so than ever with the smaller cone of fire and bigger range. The Hwachafish is more of a nuisance than an issue.
The Flak is only useful if you have a wingman with good armor stripping capabilities. Maybe a sniping junker or something like that. Otherwise the Flakfish is no threat but a liability.
So yeah, Carronade it is, unless you have a good gunner then you can think about a Lumberjack. For me the Goldfish only has 1 and 1/2 gun choices.
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Then we have had totally different experiences with a Hwacha-fish. I can kill and disable quite handily, especially because I can control my engagement so well with a Goldfish over a Spire or Galleon. It kills very well when hitting bare hull (time it like flak) and can wreak havoc on ships.
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Sorry Zill, but that's like saying "I'm so good I can kill a guy with a spoon, why can't you do that?" The hwacha is very difficult to use effectively. It can kill, yes, but it requires coordination and most importantly another light gun. The carronade doesn't require another gun to do it's killing, which is where I think the imbalance comes into play. If you're using the hwacha to kill, you're doing it wrong. I think the same should go for the carronade, if it has the potential to lock down both ships then it should NOT have the ability to kill so easily.
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I never said it was the best for killing, only that it is able to. It's main role is "disable all the things" and make target x a waste of airspace. Unlike a carronade which is more a dps gun that can grind its target into dust (slowly thanks to its low damage to bare hull), the hwacha is an all-or-nothing shock tool. Timing is paramount. The Goldfish was never a true kill ship on its own, and using it as such is an uphill fight.
The only time a carronade can lock both people is if they are both in front of you, and if they both neglect to disable that extremely exposed gun. I'm sorry, but that's not the gun's fault.
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Ok, sorry in advance for the slight thread derailment.
What ever happened to those amazing threads we used to have with swivelfish strategies. Basically a hwacha on the front of a goldfish and a chaingun on the side. Just swing the guns back and forth and time the second hwacha shot for when the enemy armor is down to make the kill.
Though I like many would love to see another heavy weapon, which thankfully by the way, is already in development.
Ok everyone, let's get back to talking about gun balance.
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If you're flying a blenderfish right, the other team CAN'T disable the Carronade, which would be fine except that the Carronade can kill you in a reasonable amount of time. Unlike the hwacha which can save itself from being disabled (theoretically if your gunner is absolutely perfect, which is why I think the hwacha could use a buff. Too hard to do the job it was made for) but the hwacha can't kill in a reasonable amount of time on it's own.
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It seems like Carronades are the new Field Guns lol.
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And you said 50m was nothing, heh.
Nidh, I'll say again that we are apparently having much different experiences with carronades. I'm not calling you dense or incapable of dealing with them either, just that I've disabled plenty after the patch (through many different means so I won't go in depth there unless you'd like me to).
The hwacha was never meant to be a pure killing gun, so making it one will just imbalance it. The biggest issue is the lack of medium guns (which is apparently being worked on) so I can't support a buff to the hwacha to make it do something outside of its intended role.
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There are a lot of emotions around the blenderfish mainly for two reasons, neither of which have to do with the gun being balanced or unbalanced in anyway:
1) The heavy carronade is the most competitive front gun for a goldfish, and for some people, the only viable gun. A nerf to it would hinder their ability to fly a ship that they very much enjoy.
2) Being blended to death can be grueling and frustrating since your death and can take several minutes if your ally doesn't come to help. This is far longer than an explosive dealt death that happens within seconds.
In my opinion, the carronades are very powerful, but really more or less balanced. Carronades really punish teams that don't fly together.
I personally have been killed by blenderfish over several minutes while my crew and I were doing an incredible job holding the ship together, repeatedly calling for my ally and never getting assistance only to die a slow and painful death. Conversely and much more frequently, I've flown with skilled allies who pour in fire on my would be blender, allowing me to regain my own gun arcs, and quickly dispatch the blenderfish.
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I didn't want to talk about my skill as a point for balance, but I don't have much trouble against carronades at all if I'm flying my Goldfish. Any ship I'm not so comfortable in, well, that's another matter but besides the point. If I'm on my game and in my comfortzone, carronades are not a problem for me, BUT having flown a blenderfish with huge success I get the feeling that it's too easy. I can tell when I don't have to put that much effort into beating the other team, and whenever I fly with a blenderfish things go way too smoothly. So it's not that I have trouble with it, it's that there's not enough trouble in using it.
As for a buff to the hwacha, to be clear I don't want it to have any killing power at all. I want it to be able to do it's job easier, which is disable. Maybe an increase to it's explosion radius, that's all. As it stands now, it is far too hard to disable anything from mid range onward, and it's reload time does not fit it's difficulty of use.
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@Smolett what if the other team had 2 blenderfish and got the upper hand on both of your team's ships. Who would help who on your team?
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Any gun can seem OP when the other side isn't doing all they can to stop you. I could use a flak fish then, lol.
For the Hwacha: I want to say it was nerfed earlier on because of an increase to engine repair times. I think the aoe was reduced to stop people disabling things from miles away with less than perfect shots. That was also with old heavy clip though, so testing a small increase to the rocket aoe couldn't hurt then.
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Fighting two blenderfish is quite easy if your team is paying attention. The easiest solution would be for each ship on your team to take a front mounted mercury or equivalent disabler to deny the blenderfish use of their weaponry.
Should you find yourselves both being blended without having killed a ship first, then formation flying begins to take a prominent role in your defense. Both pilots should have obviously brought drogue chute to extend the length of the engagement and should both be flying extremely close to one another (less than 300 M apart). While both ships are descending there will be a height differential in the engagements. At this point whichever ship is highest can fire its weaponry at the ship that's blending its ally, either disabling the weaponry of the ship blending their teammate or outright killing it. Blending takes so long that these height differentials will manifest shots for each ship frequently eventually killing one blenderfish and allowing the team to 2v1 the remaining ship.
The idea of two blenderfish seems to be extremely overpowered, but in practice, not nearly as good as they would seem. The length of time it takes them to make kills and the vulnerability should they make the slightest of errors makes the strategy not nearly as powerful as comparable strategies. The lack of actual double blender use in goi reflects this reality.
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I'm not convinced the hwacha needs more aoe, since any hit anywhere near the intended component will make a part destruct.
There was a suggestion in another thread of making the heavy clip reduce spread by 90% instead of 100% so that the hwacha would spread around a bit on its own to make it easier to use. It's obvious that the skill needed to use the gun greatly increased after the heavy clip change, however the reward for said skill was also increased as shown in competition by several different merry men gunners and gungineers.
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Now suppose you were flying a blenderfish, but for some reason either you didn't see what your ally brought or he switched at the last second. Now you both have blenderfish. How would you beat yourself on the other team? You wouldn't just say, welp I can beat this double blender so easily I'll just give up I guess. Considering the fact that one blenderfish on it's own can lock down the balloon of two ships with good coordination, I don't think countering double Blenderfish is as easy as you think.
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I'm not convinced the hwacha needs more aoe, since any hit anywhere near the intended component will make a part destruct.
This is simply not true, far too many times have shots been "anywhere near" the intended componant to be disabled, and nothing was.
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I'm not convinced the hwacha needs more aoe, since any hit anywhere near the intended component will make a part destruct.
This is simply not true, far too many times have shots been "anywhere near" the intended componant to be disabled, and nothing was.
Was that on a pyra? Pyra front gun hit boxes are wonky, everything else gets destroyed pretty easily by accuate hwacha fire.
Now suppose you were flying a blenderfish, but for some reason either you didn't see what your ally brought or he switched at the last second. Now you both have blenderfish. How would you beat yourself on the other team? You wouldn't just say, welp I can beat this double blender so easily I'll just give up I guess. Considering the fact that one blenderfish on it's own can lock down the balloon of two ships with good coordination, I don't think countering double Blenderfish is as easy as you think.
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're trying to say here but when it comes to my experience, like most things in goi, if one team has two blenderfish and one team doesn't, the team with the best teamwork and coordination will win.
I don't see double blenderfish as inherently overpowered in any way and in my opinion it has easily exploitable weaknesses that could be taken advantage of by an astute team.
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It seems like Carronades are the new Field Guns lol.
It even gets ironic when you realize that the Field gun is a hard counter :D
The idea of two blenderfish seems to be extremely overpowered, but in practice, not nearly as good as they would seem... The lack of actual double blender use in goi reflects this reality.
pretty much that.
I don't think the Carronades are overpowered. I think the reason we see some people complaining about it is that you can run a successful blenderfish with marginal skill on both pilot and crew. And as others said before, getting killed by it takes frustrating time in which you can't really do anything but extend the time you have left. You can't react. Countering it takes a little more effort, a little more knowledge and a little more teamwork. It is extremely effective, it just requires a bit more effort on your end.
GOIO also need ships like the blenderfish and the Pyra, those are very rewarding ships for beginners, ships that will hook 'em up for more.
Then we have had totally different experiences with a Hwacha-fish. I can kill and disable quite handily, especially because I can control my engagement so well with a Goldfish over a Spire or Galleon. It kills very well when hitting bare hull (time it like flak) and can wreak havoc on ships.
Yeah you are right, totally different experiences then ;). I never piloted nor served on a successfull Hwachafish. I would like to see you fly.
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Yes mostly on a Pyra, but I didn't know about the hitbox thing. Then I revise my statement, "Please fix the Pyra hitboxes."
The best team will win, I agree, but the Carronade relies on less teamwork to be successful, wherein I think lies the problem. I see the Carronade as a support weapon, and as such I think it should rely much more on an ally to be able to do any kind of permanent damage. Like I said earlier, it's fine if it can lock down both ships, but it's a problem when it can lock down both ships AND kill them.
Rather I should say the ability to kill on it's own is not right imo... the clever and skillful use of light weaponry to compliment a supporting weapon should be rewarded.
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I never had an issue against the Carronade.
What people don't seem to realize is that the Goldfish is a one gunner ship, meaning...you can shoot everything off the goldfish, but if that gun is still on, it's gonna keep shooting....unlike previous Metas...such as Pyramidions or old Carronade - Flame Squids, where if you blow everything off those ships, they lose their fire power quite effectively.
Have I played against Double blenders? Yes. Have I got womped? Yes. Did I beat that combo, too? Yes. Fun thing about the heavy carronade is that you can shoot out the other heavy carronade, which should be the priority first since that will give the enemy blender no offense for a few seconds, force an engineer on the gun perhaps, and you can take out that balloon before that carronade gets back up, just in time for you to shoot it out again.
I've beaten double blenders with a Lumberjack (hit them hard before they get to you)...mines...Carronade-Flame Squids, heavy gat-mortar/flak pyramids....
The reason why you see so many blenderfish, and this is in my opinion, is because we still see a lot of close-range brawlers, even though they gave the mortar a max-distance, I still see a lot of gat-flak Pyramids, and a Blender (or a Carronade-flamer squid) is one of the easiest things to use against those. Since they're going to be upclose and personal, you'd want a ship that can be just as up-close, and more maneuverable.
Other opinion is because I don't think many new pilots know about different engagement lengths and what suits best, or that even those "sniper" weapons with arm times can be just as up-close of a combat weapon with the right gunner skills...but probably the first as I still see a ton of new pilots treat a lumberfish as a battery-ram...
....
They could make it so the Lumberjack has no arm time again~ that can be your counter~
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The hitboxes on the pyramidion are not broken. They're just misleading.
What happens is that if you look at pyramidion dead in the eyes (triangle!?) and try to shoot its top guns out, what can happen is that you miss and fire right underneath the gun's hitbox and hit the hull/balloon right behind the gun. This will cause a hit indicator to show up where you hit... right behind the gun, but since hit indicators draw on top of the entire ship it just looks like you hit the gun.
We're looking into a variety of solutions for this including increasing the hitbox on guns slightly etc... Still experimenting.
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It's mostly bc the carros are affected by your platforms movement and you missing even though your aim is where the gun would be if it was in drawdistance.
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If you are trying to kill entirely with a carronade it's going to take a while. I usually use one to take a ship out of a fight for a short period. Then my team can focus a single ship at a time. Also drogue chute buys you HUGE amounts of time against a blender.
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Any gun can seem OP when the other side isn't doing all they can to stop you. I could use a flak fish then, lol.
For the Hwacha: I want to say it was nerfed earlier on because of an increase to engine repair times. I think the aoe was reduced to stop people disabling things from miles away with less than perfect shots. That was also with old heavy clip though, so testing a small increase to the rocket aoe couldn't hurt then.
Wait, was it not that the point of the hwacha? Being a good disabler or, zone denier from long range?
The easiest solution would be for each ship on your team to take a front mounted mercury or equivalent disabler to deny the blenderfish use of their weaponry.
That is a bit too much of a counter. On a spire, i have to choose a Carronade to counter a blender fish. Mostly because the pub wont be able to merc the weapon off i changed it to the mortar. THEN i noticed the goldfish brought a lumberjack the last second. Tell me if the carronade is not so good it almost determines a battle at the very start. Not implying it that strongly.
If you are trying to kill entirely with a carronade it's going to take a while.
Get the gunner of the twin carronade to use lochnager on the hull when the baloon is down. Its gonna do bunch. It is also allready a good hull armor and health destroyer. Doesnt take me a while at all.
Other opinion is because I don't think many new pilots know about different engagement lengths and what suits best
That is also true, but dont deny the fact that if the choice between a hwacha and the carronade, and the carronade seems to do better because well, both guns for the goldfish requier it to be close range for full effeciency, but which gun prooves to be more effective? Thats the issue.
My input again is baloons being taken down too quickly and how hard it is to repair it. Then the fact that the baloon AND hull go down like buttah when shot by carronades of any kind constantly.
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Can we move the meta and strategy discussion somewhere else, please?
This thread if for bringing up things that are potentially broken.
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The Carronade Buff needs to be completely undone. Why buff a close range weapon that didn't need buffing and make it so over powered it's ridiculous!
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What is overpowered about the heavy carronade?
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The Heavy carronade was way better before 1.3.2, so it is by no means overpowered, it got nerfed and received some changes to balance out the nerf in reload time (which is a whooping 1.5 seconds longer now if I may remind you). The buff in range on both carronades is marginally small and not realy that impactful on public play seeing as your average player will never take advantage of the absolute max range of the gun.
I don't see what's the problem? Ease of use? Anything is easy to use at a range of ~350 meters. I think people just got way too used to disables being non-existant, considering how dominant Gat+Mortar/Flak used to be and now just can't handle it as well. :/
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The problem really becomes when there is no foreseeable counter to them. (excluding more carronades)
I spent all night trying different set-ups (a lumberjack/merc/artemis spire seemed the best, followed by a regular mobula build) and in the end it never mattered. Team with the most carronades wins. I'm not truly convinced of the carronade having a poor downward arc because there was never a time that we could simply get underneath or try anything fancy. This is especially foolish if you consider that should you fail in not being low enough you have only placed yourself closer to the ground.
It really is the new mercury. We would have Puppy Fur (lvl 10 squid) and literally any captain (level 2-3, new players) beating two level 4-6 captains 5-0. Maybe 5-2 if we had a particularly good set-up/teamwork/spawns. I started to wonder whether or not Puppy could beat us 2-1, honestly.
It does take a good amount of skill to use a squid like that, or to keep the carronades on target in a pyra, but it's almost an identical amount of skill to using the mercury cannon pre-nerf.
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The only maps where carronades reign supreme are ones with terrain advantage, such as Paritan or maybe Duel. The others? Sure, they're annoying, but not nearly as big of an issue as some make it out to be.
And, honestly, with all the whining about how there's not enough brawling, carronades are pretty much the ultimate form of it. I mean, unless brawling is only supposed mean is gat/mortar/flak 'till the end of time.
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Take this as you will within the whole carronade debate but a pyra with drogue chute a heavy clip loaded chaingun with just about anything else in the front hard counters blenderfish.
Try it if you don't believe me, just don't stop shooting.
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The problem really becomes when there is no foreseeable counter to them. (excluding more carronades)
Merc/Artemis and mind your distance. Everything else is upon your crew actually hitting the gun, the map and captain teamwork.
I don't have the same issues especially since the new patch where we have more viable setups than gat/mortar.
Fighting against very experienced captains is always hard. The other captain can be a new guy with the right ship, it doesn't matter as long as he/she does communicate. This is how I started and anihilated better teams, I had a very good captain on my side telling me what to do. The carronade only amplifies this, since the hardest part of it is to positioning your ship correctly imo.
Also, fighting good squids is hard, there are so few of them that it is really difficult to develop tactics.
I spent all night trying different set-ups (a lumberjack/merc/artemis spire seemed the best, followed by a regular mobula build) and in the end it never mattered. Team with the most carronades wins...
I think fighting a carronade ship is less about the ship/layout and more about position, vision and usage of cover. Just don't take the Junker.
I consider a Merc long range Spire a hard counter to carronade ships. If it didn't work, then the enemy was able to outsmart you. Which isn't something to be ashamed of when you fight a lvl 10, somebody who practiced outsmarting people.
I vehemently disagree on "most carronades wins...". No, I was able to fight two blenderfishs WITH A JUNKER, while my wingman was busy chasing his tail. The only thing I had was a trifecta with two artemis' and an able crew. They couldn't even kill me once, their gun was disabled before they came close. They were obviously not lvl 10 captains. But still, I had a Junker...
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The Heavy carronade was way better before 1.3.2
I don't think so. The weapons damage/shot and range was increased and most importantly the spread of the projectiles was reduced by 1/3 making the usage of other ammunition types than heavy clips viable earlier.
Still I agree with Smollett here - while I appraise the heavy carronade to be a powerful weapon with a large tactical value, I do not think it's overpowered. Similar to hwachas, carros can cause slow and painful deaths if a captain/team doesn't know how to counter it - which can of course result in frustrating experiences. Frankly I believe that complains about the carros are quite fueled by those negative experiences.
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I don't think so. The weapons damage/shot and range was increased and most importantly the spread of the projectiles was reduced by 1/3 making the usage of other ammunition types than heavy clips viable earlier.
Still I agree with Smollett here - while I appraise the heavy carronade to be a powerful weapon with a large tactical value, I do not think it's overpowered. Similar to hwachas, carros can cause slow and painful deaths if a captain/team doesn't know how to counter it - which can of course result in frustrating experiences. Frankly I believe that complains about the carros are quite fueled by those negative experiences.
The only added damage was shatter, which it already had enough of and its effectiveness against armor is far from buffed since the longer reload means a longer cycle.
Balloons always got popped in 2 shots anyway (from the Heavy one), the marginal range buff as I said earlier, is not an issue in public play as most players won't be able to take advantage of it, especialy considering how much people whine about Goldfishes mainly, that ship is so fast, the range buff isn't all that applicable unless you're amazing with the gun and get it right in the first go, next thing you know you are face-hugging the enemy anyway. (and please don't try to argue that even a 10% of pub players would actually stay at the gun's max range)
The only borderline OP Carronade right now is the light one, because the range buff on that one is actually visible and it's much harder to take down a light gun with a tiny hitbox than a heavy one. I still find it funny that a light carronade with Heay clip does around the same burst of damage per clip as the Heavy one, this should be toned down a bit, if the Light carronade required it's whole clip to pop a balloon (5 shots instead of 4) this could balance it out, as anyone approaching with Heavy clip won't pop your balloon in the first go with this gun and actually gives the Heavy carronade an advantage over the light one for being a bigger target of a gun.
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The Heavy Carronade is still OP despite its debuffs.
AND
normal carronade.
Relax relax relax.
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https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2544.0.html
In the effort to keep this thread tidy.