Pyra being op?

[RearAdmiralZill]

I've stayed away from this discussion just because I have nothing really to add, but I'll toss a bone in to see what discussion comes of it :

You can now shoot through the nose of a pyra thanks to a recent patch. Mayhaps this has amplified the "problem" of too many pyra's flying about.

[Echoez]

You can now shoot through the nose of a pyra thanks to a recent patch. Mayhaps this has amplified the "problem" of too many pyra's flying about.

Having one less blindspot on that ship surely is a pain, but I doupt more people suddenly started using it cause of that.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Well no of course not. However I think plenty of people would agree that it simply made it that much easier to use.

[Captain Smollett]

James, i found the Carronade and banshee is quite effective. with the disabling baloon, explosive damage + aoe (also good for hull damage) and fire stack chance it makes this quite a lethal build if you get a small ammount of time on a hostile.

Implying that your enemy is realy not that stupid, you won't be getting much time on them, the moment they activate Phoenix you have something like 3 seconds before they have arcs on you (If it's a Pyra, if It's a Junker it's even less), that's where you start to realize that maybe this loadout is good on paper and CAN perform, but in reality the prequisites for it to work properly almost never go according to plan against competent opponents cause they will abuse your weapon's disability to follow them lower or higher while you can't abuse the arcs of a gun like say.. the Gatling, that can aim through the freaking floor of a ship, you can't abuse the Gatling's arcs, but you abuse every single disabling weapon's arc very much.

Pheonix claw doesn't help a pyramidion if it's turning engines are damaged or broken. 

I'm guessing Gambril has been setting fire to those props and it's pretty hard for a pyra to pheonix claw, fix the hull, put out engine fires, repair engines and shoot both front guns; something has got to give and the pyra will either lose a gun to repairs or let you saunter into their blind spot.

Also if you plan on bringing carronades on your ship you should plan on bringing chute vent as well.  It's risky for your enemy to try to get below your carronade arc because it makes them that much closer to the ground.

[Echoez]

Pheonix claw doesn't help a pyramidion if it's turning engines are damaged or broken. 

I'm guessing Gambril has been setting fire to those props and it's pretty hard for a pyra to pheonix claw, fix the hull, put out engine fires, repair engines and shoot both front guns; something has got to give and the pyra will either lose a gun to repairs or let you saunter into their blind spot.

Also if you plan on bringing carronades on your ship you should plan on bringing chute vent as well.  It's risky for your enemy to try to get below your carronade arc because it makes them that much closer to the ground.

Doesn't change the fact that you only have a very small window of opportunity to do that and I was generous and implied your enemy was not aware of you till you were directly behind them, in most normal situations they will just see you way earlier and you will have much less time to shoot at their engines, in which case you are at severe disadvantage since you bear no major killing power yourself, this is why I don't like the current meta all that much, disabling bears a very high risk against ships with solo killing power while the reward ain't all that great as people make it out to be unless executed very well.

Satisfying to pull off? Sure.

Efficient like straight out kill builds? Definately no.

also, I hope nobody here is implying an 1v1 cause that's almost never the case, fine you pulled off a very risky move of disabling the Pyra before it turned around, you still have his ally to take care of, an ally that can still probably kill you easily by himself. So why disable the Pyra and let your ally finish him while you could just straight out kill the damn thing faster and then focus down his ally?

[Echoez]

Also I realy apologize for further derailing this thread (if the original topic was even worthwile anyway..)

I'm not arguing the Pyra is OP btw, that ship is perfectly fine, if you wanna look at an OP ship look at the Junker.

This purely about how disabling is realy not a role you focus in while remaining at 100% efficiency.

[treseritops]

Hey I started a new discussion on the premise of a "kill ship" since that seems to be the root of the "Pyra or Junker is OP" problem.

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2300.new.html#new

If you'd like we can channel that through there so that the actual arguments are more focused/easily read.

[Gambrill]

James, i found the Carronade and banshee is quite effective. with the disabling baloon, explosive damage + aoe (also good for hull damage) and fire stack chance it makes this quite a lethal build if you get a small ammount of time on a hostile.

Implying that your enemy is realy not that stupid, you won't be getting much time on them, the moment they activate Phoenix you have something like 3 seconds before they have arcs on you (If it's a Pyra, if It's a Junker it's even less), that's where you start to realize that maybe this loadout is good on paper and CAN perform, but in reality the prequisites for it to work properly almost never go according to plan against competent opponents cause they will abuse your weapon's disability to follow them lower or higher while you can't abuse the arcs of a gun like say.. the Gatling, that can aim through the freaking floor of a ship, you can't abuse the Gatling's arcs, but you abuse every single disabling weapon's arc very much.

Well my 'paper plan' has been effective so far. i don't just sit around and let them get an arc on me. i go higher/lower/reverse and full accelerate to keep the pilot and gunners having a hard time. the moment that baloon has popped the pilot finds it very hard to keep an arc on me Echoez. a pyra is doomed if its baloon is focused on enough.

[Echoez]

Again, that only happens if you get a very good disable from their flanks, which as stated, is mostly not the case unless you catch your enemy completely off guard.

Their ally can still kill you while you can't realy kill anything nearly as fast and rely on your ally to do all the killing. A sucessful quick kill with a Heavy carronade for example can only happen with a coordinated ally charing the same target as you and focusing them down fast while you use your superior burst damage to get a quick advantage for a little while, if anything goes wrong your quick kill will suddenly take 4 times longer to get.

Matches in which there is some slightly major skill difference between players simply don't count, I mostly see level 4 and 6 pilots in the enemy team, who are mostly just not experienced anough to deal with the disable, not the disable being actually effective.


And any ship is doomed if you focus their balloon long enough, it's not only the Pyra, yet, you mostly won't have a good chance to do so cause:

1) focusing on one balloon only is pretty bad since you leave the other enemy afloat and able to kill you or your ally.

2) an experienced pilot will probably just let his ship slide below your arcs, repair and then dodge you, which means a lot of precious time you lose because of horrid arcs.

[Captain Smollett]

2) an experienced pilot will probably just let his ship slide below your arcs, repair and then dodge you, which means a lot of precious time you lose because of horrid arcs.

Chute vent + buffed balloon + throttle control = enemy always in gun arc

[Echoez]

2) an experienced pilot will probably just let his ship slide below your arcs, repair and then dodge you, which means a lot of precious time you lose because of horrid arcs.

Chute vent + buffed balloon + throttle control = enemy always in gun arc

They can use that too you know (usually they will just let their balloon down anyway so you lose gun arcs), if they are clever they will move right below you when you can't hit em anymore. Also I already know that, and it's not always true, just because you bring the tools doesn't mean you will stay in gun arcs forever, let's not forget that by using that you will most probably also keep yourself in their gun arcs, which is something you want to avoid in the first place.

Aka, the problem is still one and the same, by staying on target you are basically staying within their gun arcs, which means they can still kill you while you can't. That's only about the carronades though, which is not the whole point.

[Plasmarobo]

They can use that too you know (usually they will just let their balloon down anyway so you lose gun arcs), if they are clever they will move right below you when you can't hit em anymore. Also I already know that, and it's not always true, just because you bring the tools doesn't mean you will stay in gun arcs forever, let's not forget that by using that you will most probably also keep yourself in their gun arcs, which is something you want to avoid in the first place.

Aka, the problem is still one and the same, by staying on target you are basically staying within their gun arcs, which means they can still kill you while you can't. That's only about the carronades though, which is not the whole point.

I still believe that it is generally easier to keep arcs on someone than it is to escape guns arcs.
Especially against someone who is familiar with the way to pilot. Chucking the engines into reverse and dropping while turning slightly back to keep them tangent to your guns could make that strategy backfire. Good use of terrain could counter the counter and so forth. I think we're starting to get into advanced tactical theories here.

[Echoez]

Again, the point is not keeping gun arcs on them, it's doing so while staying out of theirs, since you can't kill them nearly as fast as they can kill you, you need to avoid their guns, which brings us back to this subject, the gun forces you into the enemy's gun lines if you want keep arcs, the problem is not HOW you keep arcs, it's how you do it without getting your shit blow at the same time, else, no point in actually disabling, why not use a gatling, stay above your enemy where he can't hit you but you still can cause:




and just kill them all together, why disable? No point realy.

[RomanKar]

If I can engage a Pyri at 1000 yards, I will kill it every time with a Mobula.  The Mobula's downside is easy to see and exploit, the Pyri's not so much.  the Pyri actually has about as big a blind spot as the Mobula, but no one really tries to use that to their advantage.  This is also why a Junker can own a Pyri, the junker can more easily get into that blindspot and never lose arc.

The pyri is not OP, it's just the easiest to use with PUGs.  The rest of the ships actually take some coordination.

[Eukari]

The pyri is not OP, it's just the easiest to use with PUGs.  The rest of the ships actually take some coordination.

Can I just copy/paste this every time this issue comes up from now on? It basically says everything that needs to be said.

As to the somewhat-off-topic conversation going on above...I think the whole "keeping them in your arcs while avoiding their arcs" is basically 90% of what learning to be a good pilot is all about. 5% is telling the other captains you're doing it, and the final 5% is listening to them do the same.