Lumberjack Discussion

[Captain Smollett]

That's sort of what I'm saying as well, LJ is one of the only things that works competitively outside of gat flak and it still takes way longer to kill with.  If the gun was as overpowered for high skill play like everyone is suggesting, you would see all high level teams bringing at least two to matches and dominating anyone who didn't, this is simply not happening.

In the past pretty much all op weapons were rooted out by competitive play like when gents decimated with 8 heavy flaks, teams were butchering with 4 mercs or when one team took 7 Artemis' into a competitive match.

No one is arguing that the LJ sucks, it just is effective at it's role and there is a wide gap between effective and balanced and op.

Just because something is effective, doesn't mean it should be nerfed.

Edit- Fixed typo

[Machiavelliest]

Played against a Lumberfish tonight while a little bit inebriated.  I was volun-told to pilot a flakfish as a gunner when the pilot dropped while my two Japanese engineers (I speak just a little Japanese) were on the repairs/guns.  We won.  Ramming a jackfish destroys it.  The enemy gunner was no pro, but it was far from unbeatable.

[Letus]

Played against a Lumberfish tonight while a little bit inebriated.  I was volun-told to pilot a flakfish as a gunner when the pilot dropped while my two Japanese engineers (I speak just a little Japanese) were on the repairs/guns.  We won.  Ramming a jackfish destroys it.  The enemy gunner was no pro, but it was far from unbeatable.

There's a reason I keep chute vent on my fish...

Rather take a ram to the balloon when I see it coming, turn around, and kerosine away.

That's sort of what I'm saying as well, LJ is one of the only things that works competitively outside of gat flak and it still takes way longer to kill with.  If the gun was as overpowered for high skill play like everyone is suggesting, you would see all high level teams bringing at least two to matches and dominating anyone who didn't, this is simply not happening.

In the past pretty much all op weapons were rooted out by competitive play like when gents decimated with 8 heavy flaks, teams were butchering with 4 mercs or when one team took 7 Artemis' into a competitive match.

No one is arguing that the LJ sucks, it just is effective at it's role and there is a wide gap between effective and balanced and op.

Just because something is effective, doesn't mean it should be nerfed.

Edit- Fixed typo

A few of us kinda did this a long while ago.  Three lumber fish is what we had.
Each of those had capable gunners and pilots, and we were against two hwatcha fish, and a gat-flak pyarmidion.

We lost, 3-7.

[Letus]

So, I did this today: went into the sandbox -gasp- and tried to get numbers!

Remember, these are based off the health of the target dummies, and I compared three guns: Typhon Heavy Flak, Lumberjack Mortar, Hellhound Heavy Carronade.  I used both regular shot and charged rounds respectfully

Typhon Heavy Flak
Shots to destroy Armour: 6 (5 charged)
Shots to kill ship (after armour is down:)  2 (1 charged)
Total to kill ship:  8 (6 charged)

Lumberjack Mortar
Shots to destroy armour: 7 (5 charged)
Shots to kill ship (after armour is down:) 8 (6 charged)
Total to kill ship:  15 (11 charged)

Hellhound HEavy Carronade
Shots to destroy armour:  5 (4 charged)
Shots to kill ship (after armour is down:)  6 (5 charged)
Total to kill ship: 11 (9 charged)


Time requires  a stopwatch...that's why I made a video, but I need to make a better one..
It comes down to distance, fire rate, and reload speed

Reload speed alone would mean, for the expending of the clips
Typhoon Flak: 20.4 seconds (15.3 charged)
Lumberjack: 20 seconds (17.6 charged)
Hellhound: 23.1 seconds (18.9 charged)

The above time numbers do not include rate-of-fire, but the amount alone it takes to reload the clips alone.

Someone else can figure out those numbers...I'm mathing wrong.

[Ofiach]

So wait hiding in a corner and sniping is more fun than actually piloting and manuevering and engaging in combat? Is that really what I'm hearing you say right now Rustedshut?

Yes charging face first into a gat flak is just a DPS race, this game is about alot more than just face charging.... I seriously will never understand the argument that it is fun to sit in a corner and camp over actually getting into combat and fighting.

Guess I have to use this line now "Sniping is the only way to win a game without ever playing it."

[Linen]

Ofiach he was't talking about camping. Using a sniping weapon does not always equal camping. Don't attack the poor guy because he likes a different playstyle now and then.

[Coldcurse]

whenver i think of the lumberjack, i think of aqua and phoebe.

[Ofiach]

Now wait I didn't attack him but he said it's just a DPS race with the gat/flak, and that is an absolute fallacy. Brawling with these airships is an artform, just because one gun combo is better for brawling than alot of others doesn't make it a DPS race. Also IMO the gat/mortar is a better brawler build it just takes a special flying style and a special gunner to use.

Now maybe it came off as an attack but I'm sorry this game is about flying not sitting still in a corner with long range sniper weapons that outshine everything.

[Machiavelliest]

I'm going to throw out there that the disparity here might be that the Lumberjack is well-balanced for new gunners, but insanely deadly in the hands of experienced ones.  Play with or against Charon or Kubitsuri on the Lumberjack and it really changes the dynamics of what the weapon is capable of.

I'd argue that the originally difficult technique of firing the weapon was used as a balancing factor.  The baseline skill has improved for the weapon, and thus that balancing factor might be argued as not effective against well-trained gunners.  The game stats aren't the only variable here--the skill level and composition of the community is changing, so the game must change to accomodate that.

Personally, I feel that a little balancing is needed to prevent very skilled Lumberjackers from being able to single-weapon kill so quickly against another target.  The carronades pop balloons, but if you double up carronade, people don't die this fast, and it's much tougher to do that.

Srsly guys.

[Coldcurse]

I'm going to throw out there that the disparity here might be that the Lumberjack is well-balanced for new gunners, but insanely deadly in the hands of experienced ones.  Play with or against Charon or Kubitsuri on the Lumberjack and it really changes the dynamics of what the weapon is capable of.

I'd argue that the originally difficult technique of firing the weapon was used as a balancing factor.  The baseline skill has improved for the weapon, and thus that balancing factor might be argued as not effective against well-trained gunners.  The game stats aren't the only variable here--the skill level and composition of the community is changing, so the game must change to accomodate that.

Personally, I feel that a little balancing is needed to prevent very skilled Lumberjackers from being able to single-weapon kill so quickly against another target.  The carronades pop balloons, but if you double up carronade, people don't die this fast, and it's much tougher to do that.

Srsly guys.

the lumberjack is a good balanced gun, you are just wanting its power lowered because you die too much.

[Imagine]

I'm going to throw out there that the disparity here might be that the Lumberjack is well-balanced for new gunners, but insanely deadly in the hands of experienced ones.  Play with or against Charon or Kubitsuri on the Lumberjack and it really changes the dynamics of what the weapon is capable of.

I'd argue that the originally difficult technique of firing the weapon was used as a balancing factor.  The baseline skill has improved for the weapon, and thus that balancing factor might be argued as not effective against well-trained gunners.  The game stats aren't the only variable here--the skill level and composition of the community is changing, so the game must change to accomodate that.

Personally, I feel that a little balancing is needed to prevent very skilled Lumberjackers from being able to single-weapon kill so quickly against another target.  The carronades pop balloons, but if you double up carronade, people don't die this fast, and it's much tougher to do that.

Srsly guys.

the lumberjack is a good balanced gun, you are just wanting its power lowered because you die too much.

As far as I can tell, it's a small vocal minority clammoring for LJ changes, perhaps because of what you said.

[Ofiach]

It is a minority of the forum dwellers but a majority of people who actually play the game. In just about every lobby you hear people say the LJ is fun to use but OP as shit. In alot of lobbies people wont even use it because they feel dirty.

Most people who play the game don't bother coming to the forums. They pretty much feel that forum talk never changes anything so why bother. It is different with muse because they at least listen but most players wont buy that. Even when you ask em to go put their opinion on the forum they would rather just hop lobbies when they have to deal with LJ snipers.

[Imagine]

It is a minority of the forum dwellers but a majority of people who actually play the game. In just about every lobby you hear people say the LJ is fun to use but OP as shit. In alot of lobbies people wont even use it because they feel dirty.

I think your sense of perception about it is skewed. Outside of the forums, I've seen LJs discussed in game region or lobby maybe... once? Twice?

Anyways, I don't think anyone is arguing that it's not a good weapon, but it seems like the general consensus is that it's not overpowered, both in the eyes of many players and the devs themselves.

[Kestril]

It is a minority of the forum dwellers but a majority of people who actually play the game. In just about every lobby you hear people say the LJ is fun to use but OP as shit. In alot of lobbies people wont even use it because they feel dirty.

Most people who play the game don't bother coming to the forums. They pretty much feel that forum talk never changes anything so why bother. It is different with muse because they at least listen but most players wont buy that. Even when you ask em to go put their opinion on the forum they would rather just hop lobbies when they have to deal with LJ snipers.

Uh, I don't use the LJ because it doesn't work well just on its own without coordination in pubs. I like the weapon, and think its good at what it does, but I prefer the heavy flak over the LJ in most circumstances. If they felt that strongly about the LJ being OP, I think they'd create an account and make sure their concern is noted on the forum.

[Letus]

Unsure about the Lumberjack being missused and "dirty."  Never heard that before.

If anything, the hwatcha is the most overpowered thing out there as MOST pubs that I've been in have at least one...on average of 3.  Problem is that the hwatcha can destroy everything, while the Lumberjack destroys what...2 items?  Three if you count a ship.

And if we're going to throw in the whole "sniping deal"

Then Nerf the Heavy Clip Hwatcha
The Mercury  field gun
and the Artemis.

Oh and Heavy clip Gatling gun, and light Flack cannon
Heavy flack cannon with Lesmok annnd
...
Heavy clip Banshee
probably Lesmok light mortar.

In the right hands, those guns can be deadly, and can easily kill you, or highly maim you if you're going for that whole brawling charge-and-die method before you can deal any damage.

In fact..
Nerf all guns.
They blow you up apparently, and that seems to be bad to every pilot....

Seriously, I saw a bot easily hit a shot that I tend to use Lesmok on a Lumberjack with a regular round Light Mortar shot...