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Messages - Captain Smollett

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Community Events / Re: "The Cogs" Week 0 - Brackets
« on: March 13, 2013, 04:05:53 pm »

it is going to be an epic fight :D

Nice video sir. Ducks are very protective of their own. It's definitely going to be epic.

I salute you for this sir.  I've always wanted this info, just never thought to ask.

Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Buff the Junker
« on: March 12, 2013, 07:49:40 pm »
Wow, it's interesting to see how much the game has evolved since beta; and people thought 1.14 was a big change!

Community Events / Re: Training Day
« on: March 12, 2013, 07:28:15 pm »
I wasn't available yesterday for the training but if I'm around I always like helping out people who like to learn.  I feel like after playing for so many hours I have a lot to impart.

Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Buff the Junker
« on: March 12, 2013, 07:26:23 pm »
To update, the current stat is 500/700 hull/armor. I was off a touch.

Zill you even had me confused for a second.  500/700 for as long as I've been playing is what I meant.  Good catch.

Community Events / Re: "The Cogs" Week 0 - Brackets
« on: March 12, 2013, 07:20:11 pm »
All these match ups look really good.  I'm almost more interested in watching them than playing in them.  Will all of these be livecast?

Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Buff the Junker
« on: March 12, 2013, 07:09:50 pm »
If im not mistaken, the Hull/Armor values changed with 1.1.4, as well as the speed. (I could be wrong though and need to look at numbers again.) It used to be 200/800 and now its 400/700, which is technically a buff. I was also under the impression that the Spire was slower than a Junker. Apart from the blueprints, I dont really look that hard into numbers and go by "feel."

As long as I've played the Junker had 700/400 Armor/Permahull, though I'm sure it was different at some point.  Also according to the blueprints the Spire and Junker are the same speed however the Spire accelerates faster.

3. Its a tank. Yes, your guns break like they are made of chinese metal, but if you have an engie camping the hull and the pilot is keeping good eyes on his balloon, you can work through the damage you are going to take. I always plan for my junker to have no guns or engines working after a fight. But i'll still be alive, tanking dps.

I agree that the Junker can tank pretty well.  Unfortunately a Pyra does it better, and it just seems that the Junker "should" be better at tanking.

A really terrible idea buff which I would love is changing its gun layout. Why should it be symmetrical? It's a Junker. What if you replaced the two light guns on the right side with a single medium gun?

That would be freakin' cool.  Not sure we can convince Muse to remake the whole ship, but it would be interesting.

Fun fact: The Junker was the first ship to be overpowered in GoIO
The more you know~

I'd be curious to hear what it was like.  Tell me more.

Thanks again for all the great comments.  I can feel the Muse gods presence getting nearer.  Maybe they'll hear my plea.  The more I think about the Junker the more I like it due to it's high skill level required.  I just wish it was a tad better so a crew could be rewarded for it's efforts by being able to hang with the big dogs of GOI.

Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Buff the Junker
« on: March 12, 2013, 02:25:01 pm »
First and foremost thank you to everyone for reading and replying to this.  It's always good to hear from the community.

The Junker is a average-poor close quarters ship in the hands of the average player, but by far the best long-range sniper platform of any ship in the game (double Mercs having a far greater range and accuracy than the Heavy Flak broadside of a Galleon).  In theory, the Pyra should be the equal as a sniper platform but the Junker has a better layout for crewing. See the Junker Fight Club thread for how this works if you've not tried using the Junker this way.

The Junker does work well with an AI crew, it's far superior to the Pyra in this respect - the Pyra having the worst layout for AI.  On a short-handed match with AI crews I'd take either the Junker or a Goldfish over the other ships.  The AI crew is particularly good on the Junker when maneouvering with Hydrogen and Chute Vent at close quarters.  If you want to take a Junker into the heat of the battle, these two tools are essential.

In an average match the only ship that causes me concern when flying a Junker is the Pyra due to it's speed and forward facing guns, I know that against average crews I can take out any ship on the map with the Junker if my opponents allow me to play the match to my own terms.  In a premier team match, the Junker still has it's place but you need a coordinated team that matches the skills of the opposition.

There was a discussion on the old forum about buffing the Junker, and I think my choice remains the same - if the Junker gets a buff my preference is for a speed buff to match the speed of the Galleon.  If not speed, then a minor arnour buff.

There are some comments in the opening post that don't make sense to me.. the one about armour/hull health.  It doesn't matter how long it takes to repair the armour, as long as there is some armour it's protecting the hull.  The comment about Junker vs. Galleon and range, the Mercury has the longest effective range of any weapon, and the Junker can bear two onto a target whilst the Galleon can bear one.  It's not unusual to be in a long-range match with a Galleon with their Heavy Flaks bursting black smoke 50 yards short of your Junker, whilst you're scoring effective hits against specific components on the Galleon.  A Junker can close on a Galleon with the front gun bearing on the target, whilst a Galleon cannot close whilst training a gun onto target, except at very oblique angles of approach.

I've introduced several players to the Junker as a long-range sniper after it was introduced to me, and about half are struck by how effective it is and stick with it for several matches.  Admittedly it's most effective against Captains that don't appreciate it in that role and are left three map squares away wondering, "WTF is happening to my armour/hull?"  Any sensible opposing team will get together and rush a long-range Junker, trying for a 2v1 CQB where the sniper Junker is vulnerable without team support.


Hubert, while I agree with you that the Junker makes a good sniping platform. I truly believe that the Pyra is superior at this role.  Duel merc on the front of a Pyra allow much more versatility in combat.  If an enemy approaches the Pyra, it can back peddle keeping the enemy out of range.  If the enemy closes, the Pyra can fly forward, pass the enemy and then fly backwards to its teammate all while maintaining fire and positional advantage.  A Junker can't reposition and is forced to make a turn and try to duke it out. 

I suppose I should clarify my statement on not taking an AI crew on the Junker.  I'll almost never take any ship into combat without at least one main engineer.  But with a Junker I won't take it into combat without two.  The reason for this is that on a Pyra, Galleon, Goldfish etc, one human can do a significant amount of engineering on their own and the AI does a good job running around where that human isn't.  On a Junker however the human has to stay on the hull and the AI get's a bit lost.  It will climb all the way to the top to fix the balloon and go all the way to the bottom of the junker to fix the rear engine.  This means that frequently the AI isn't even in the part of the ship you need them to be in at all.  On a Pyra I just set them to gun and flip on F3 every time I need them to hit the balloon, then switch them right back.  Furthermore with so many guns on a Junker both enemies are often within arc.  It's really difficult to get the AI to shoot at the one you want when on a Junker.  Other ships you just turn your ship out of arc of the second opponent.

As far as armor times, I'm specifically talking about rebuild time.  When armor breaks it takes different amounts of time to rebuild depending on the overall max armor.  For example a squid takes about 3 seconds to rebuild and a goldfish takes about 4.  The higher the max armor the longer the rebuild.

As far as a sniping match against a galleon goes, it's true that you'll outmatch a galleon with just Flaks over really long range however the Medium sniper weapon is the Lumberjack, not the Flak.  A good gunner can hit clear across the map with a Lumberjack.  For proof of this watch the second Paddling vs Gentlemen match on the Fjords.  The Gentlemen hit the very first Lumberjack shot clear across the map hitting squash as soon as the match began.  The Junker is far more susceptible to this than the Pyra due to its significantly larger balloon.

Anyways thanks again for the replies.  I'd love to hear from even more of the community on this issue.   Maybe this will gain enough prominence for Muse to see it and perhaps eventually buff the Junker into competitive use.

Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Night Fights
« on: March 12, 2013, 01:41:53 pm »
This has been suggested before and I think the idea is just as good now as it was then. This could make for some really interesting tactics and high level play.

Feedback and Suggestions / Buff the Junker
« on: March 12, 2013, 02:22:07 am »
So I've brought up improving the junker casually to players over the past few months, and it seems that there are pretty divided opinions on the strength of the Junker.  However after substantial flight time in all ships, I've come to the conclusion that the Junker; though certainly not terrible, doesn't stand out enough in any role or contain superiority in any capability to truly be a competitive ship. 

Now if you'll please forgive me for the wall of text, allow me to present my case.

Junker strengths:

Small hull area - The Junker has the second smallest hull in the game, making the slender profile tough to hit at range for gunners not accustomed to the projectile drop of their weapons.

Good Armor - Though only slightly greater than the Pyramidion, at 700, the Junker has the second highest armor in the game

Weaponry - The Junker has 5 light weapons, one more than the Pyra and second only to the Galleon in overall weapon mounts

Blind spots - As far as weapon blind spots go, due to the large number of guns and the short hull, the Junker has one of the smallest, with only a small area behind the ship that isn't in fire arc of a gun.

The trifecta - This is the single greatest advantage of the junker.  With a very well crewed and piloted ship loaded with wide swinging weapons, the Junker can get three light weapons on target.  This however can be very risky since you'll either be taking a man off the helm or the hull, either of which can quickly prove fatal to a Junker.

Large balloon - With a large balloon and a small hull, a crafty pilot can drop below his opponent in close quarters to block potentially fatal shots from shattering him to pieces

Junker weaknesses:

Large balloon - The Junker has a giant balloon.  Any time I'm gunning against a Junker with a carronade or lumberjack, a smile quickly comes to my lips.  The giant target ensures that my opponent will spend the entire match without an inflated balloon.  Furthermore, that small hull beneath the large balloon makes it really difficult for the Junker to shoot at targets above it.  The Junker is too slow to run away, and incapable of shooting up at something close by and above it.  Unless their teammate saves them, the Junker will have a hell of a time escaping a balloon popping death.

Hull health - The Junker only has 500 hull?!  This is the least in the game.  This means that if the armor goes down, which inevitably happens in any fight, the Junker only needs to be sneezed at to die.  For example, a charged heavy flak shot will nearly one shot a Junker without armor.  Furthermore, since the Junker has 700 armor, it takes longer for it to be rebuilt, making the probability of it's demise even greater.

Junker speed - The Junker is the slowest ship in the game.  This really can make a huge difference in a fight.  When capping points, or rejoining a fight after a death (something that happens often in a Junker) seconds can mean the difference between saving a teammate or arriving just after his death into a two on one.

Difficult to crew - I will never take a junker into combat with an AI engineer.  Never.  For a ship with a small hull, the components are spread out everywhere.  To even have a chance against a skilled opponent requires some really high level crew tricks including maintaining the hull from the front ramp of the ship, and the captain maintaining his own balloon.  God forbid the turning engines break.  Since you can't ever afford to have someone off the hull (500 hull health...) you'll need you're gungineer or captain to go up and fix them.  This either leaves you a gun down, or no one to turn the ship to bring weapons to bear on your opponent for quite a while, keeping the Junker debilitated far longer than other ships.

Difficult to crew - This is worth mentioning twice, since I spend the beginning of most of my Junker matches training players (even experienced ones) the ins and outs.  This still doesn't always keep my engineers off all the shiny guns, and in position.  Successful flying of the Junker requires constant and complicated crew movements, which in the heat of combat often fall apart, leaving guns unmanned or even more commonly our fragile hull not being looked after.

Broadside weapon mounts - This is probably the biggest weakness of the Junker.  Though it might not seem to be a large disadvantage having the primary weapons on the broadside of the ship, it makes a huge difference in combat.  This is due to the fact that a ship with forward facing weapons is able to dictate the range at which combat takes place.  Every weapon has its optimal range.  When sparring in a ship like a Pyra, you can keep your guns in a more favorable range than your opponents, you can skirt at the edge of combat to initiate, close in to increase accuracy if you gain an advantage, or increase distance if it seems your opponent has gotten the upper hand.  Furthermore you can fly into a fight guns blazing and run away with your bullets flying and generally travel to any location while keeping your opponent under fire.  The Junker however can only fire one light weapon at an opponent when traveling, furthermore when engaged in a broadside engagement you cannot flee.  The Junker is far to slow to go anywhere, and if it turns to move, it will lose half of its firepower.  You're more or less forced to duke it out, on an opponents terms and range, against ships with equal or greater firepower, and greater health; likely leading to that wimpy hull exploding.  The other disadvantage of engaging in a broadside engagement is that it exposes your engines.  When facing against a manticore in most ships, I can confidently eat a volley or two head on, knowing that at worst I'll lose my guns and some armor, however the Junker, due to the small hull, large balloon and broadside engagement. will be completely disabled, losing all engines, guns and eventually even the balloon from the weapons AOE.

Ship to ship comparisons - A junker fairs pretty well against a squid, a goldfish is too different to really be compared and anything can kill a Spire, however I think the case for buffing the Junker really can be made by comparing it to two of the most popular ships; the Galleon and the Pyramidion.

Junker vs Galleon - When it comes down to it, these are similar ships in concept, both with high armor, and a lot of guns on the broadsides, but the Junker is outmatched in almost every way.  The Galleon is faster, has more guns, has bigger guns, is easier to engineer, has more armor and more hull.  The Galleon excels at ranged combat, and the Junker is extremely poor at closing in on an opponent.  In a one on one engagement, the Galleon simply needs to point and shoot.  It will destroy the Junker often before it is in range to fight.  The Junker's best chance is to engage at mercury range, however the galleon can simply bring it's own mercury.  If it's brought a lumberjack as well, the Junker will not be mercing for long.  If the Junker manages to close, it's likely to find itself in the aforementioned manticore death.

Junker vs Pyramidion - This I think is the ultimate argument for why the Junker needs to be buffed.  Though both ships are designed to fight with two light weapons firing at an opponent, the Pyramidion in my opinion, is superior in almost every way.  The Pyramidion only has a hair less armor than the Junker at 650 however it has 800 hull.  The Pyra is significantly faster.  The Pyra has an armored balloon, difficult to hit head on.  The Pyra is easy to engineer, with it's protected engines nearby the hull all being able to be repaired in seconds and it's balloon a quick turn away from a secondary engineer.  The Pyra has two forward facing guns and two broadside guns giving it a wide range of combat options.  The Pyra excels at ramming with it's hardy hull and forward facing weapons while the Junker excels at dying to rams.  All this taken into consideration, an equally crewed Pyra and Junker is a huge mismatch.  If a Pyra charges head on at a Junker, and both crews hit all their shots and make all their repairs.  The Pyra will win simply due to having greater health, this is ridiculous considering all of its other advantages.

The Junker is capable of filling a few roles relatively well.  It can bring a variety of weapons with each side purposed for different types of combat but a Pyra and a Galleon can do it better. It can snipe, but a Galleon and a Pyra do it better.  It can bring 3 guns to bear, but a Galleon does it much better.  It can tank, but a Pyra and a Galleon do it better.  The Junker may have a small hull but when facing broadside, the target is about the same size as a the bow of a Pyra.

Now, I know what you're going to say.  "I fly a Junker all the time and I dominate with it."  This I'm sure is true. I consider myself a capable captain, and I've killed every ship and every level of pilot with a Junker. However at the end of the day you really have to ask yourself, why not just bring a Pyra/Galleon, because, although capable, there is nothing that a Junker is superior at.  If you watched the Fjords tournament, you likely saw a lot of Pyras, Goldfish and Galleons in use.  I'd love to see the day when every ship is considered competitive and high level play includes every ship in use equally.


So that's my argument, here's my proposal:

Increase speed and maneuverability - As a small ship, the Junker should be faster than the Galleon and have quick acceleration.  Give it at least a 25% boost to speed and acceleration so it can quickly join the fight and have a chance at pursuing fleeing opponents.

Increase it's hull  - The Junker is a broadside fighting ship.  It can't choose it's engagements  so it needs to be able to tank in order to at least have a chance to win the ones it's in.  Option A - Increase armor by 100 and increase hull by 200.  This will make the Junker at least have a fighting chance in a 1v1 against a Pyra giving it 800/700 vs the Pyras 650/800.  Option B - This I think is the more interesting option but a bit tougher to balance.  Make the Junker the reverse Goldfish by keeping it's hull low but giving it plus 250 Armor.  The Junker would then have 950/500 making it important for opponents to keep fire focused on the Junker so that it doesn't simply repair and return unscathed.  It would still be a quick kill without armor though and would make the game really interesting tactically since a team may be forced to make a decision between taking more armor breaking weapons to kill the Junker or more explosive weapons to kill it's teammate.

If you've made it this far into this post, let me sincerely thank you for reading it, since a lot of thought and time went into it.

I encourage you to please comment on this.  I know we have a lot of active forum members with strong and informed opinions and I'd honestly like to hear all of them.  I don't claim to know everything there is about the Junker and I'd love to hear some other opinions on this matter.

Community Events / Re: GoIOJPN looking for opponents!
« on: March 11, 2013, 08:37:09 pm »
The Ducks are always up for a challenge.  We have members in all time zones so just let us know when is a good time and I'll see if I can coordinate it. Usually takes about a week for the duck call to spread around the flock.

Feedback and Suggestions / Re: New Role: "Saboteur!!!"
« on: March 11, 2013, 05:03:41 pm »
It's nice to read so many creative ideas from the community. Unfortunately due to the way the game is built boarding will never be possible.  Currently players cannot interact with the environment, which is one of the measons Muse can't kake the flare gun a captains tool.  Who knows though, maybe some of this may make it into adventure mode.

The Pit / Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« on: March 05, 2013, 09:05:28 pm »
Yeah, I can't speak for everyone in the game but I find most people easygoing and agreeable.  That being said I really learned a lot by flying against all those stacked teams that I flew against when I started.  I had a lot of losses flying in those games but it definitely made me better.  I can't tell you how proud I was the first time I made Firestone rage quit.

The Pit / Re: "Guns of Icarus" fans, holding game back.
« on: March 05, 2013, 08:50:13 pm »
I'll admit that I often play on a stacked side, since I generally like to fly with the people I know and have met through the game, and I have been more or less flying with since I bought it.  For me it's enjoyable to socialize and chat while flying through the skies and vanquishing foes.  That being said I usually don't mind evening out teams if asked.  It often only takes two ships switching, with one going up and one going down to balance out experience levels and I'm always happy to do that.

Community Events / Re: "The Cogs" League Discussion
« on: March 04, 2013, 08:31:02 pm »
Don't worry Ccrack.  The Paddling will represent, actually we were the first non dev team to sign up for it.  Talk to Squash for more details.

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