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Achievement system flaw

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Plasmarobo:

--- Quote from: Serenum on June 12, 2013, 02:19:02 am ---
--- Quote from: Surette on June 11, 2013, 06:29:45 pm ---
--- Quote from: Serenum on June 11, 2013, 05:53:27 pm ---Not a fan of this achievement system at all.
It forces often unnatural and counterproductive gameplay (gunner with fire extinguisher?) and it forces me to use ships I don't like. I struggled to get the Goldfish achievements because the Goldfish is my least favourite ship, playing with it was a chore and no mattaer how many games I did with it I didn't like it any better.

Thing is, if you want to give incentives to experiment and try other ships then make it totally optional and separated form leveling. It could maybe give specific cosmetic items, but leveling should be something natural, that everyone can do just playing the game however you want. Level matters to me in this game because I'm a pretty good pilot and I want my level to represent that.
I shouldn't have to cripple my stats because I was forced to play a ship I don't really like in order to level up.

--- End quote ---
But it doesn't force you to do anything. If your goal is to complete every achievement ever, then you're probably not the type to care about unnatural gameplay. If your level matters to you as you say, then that's fine. You can still reach quite a high level even if you ignore all of the achievements you don't like. I still don't understand when people say they're forced to play in a way they don't like. I don't feel forced into doing anything. I haven't completed that gunner with extinguisher achievement because it'd be silly for me to take an extinguisher as a gunner, and that's okay. If I was a completionist, I'd worry about it. But I'm not.

(Also, in my humble opinion, a good pilot is able to fly with any ship -- or at least most of them.)

--- End quote ---

Uhm... Yes it does? If I want to complete an achievement I am obviously forced to do so in the way the achievement is set up. I can't complete an achievement for the Goldfish using the Galleon, thus if I want that achievement I am forced to play as the Goldfish.
Making assumptions like "if you care about achievement you shouldn't care for unnatural gameplay" is just a logical fallacy, in this game achievements=leveling and while I normally don't care about achievements I do care about leveling. In most games leveling is tied to experience and just playing the game however you want, thus I can ignore achievement to pursue the objective of leveling up, in this game I cannot do that.

As for stats and k/d ratio not counting that is also a subjective opinion, the game provides me with comprehensive stats for my character, thus I care for said stats, be it k/d ratio, level and all that good stuff.
If the game didn't want me to care then such stats would be hidden and/or there wouldn't be a leveling system at all.

If something is a feature in the game then it's logical to care about it.

Also, I don't like the Goldfish, not even a Lumberfish, I do just fine with Squid and Galleon, thanks. I can pilot other ships, which I would argue are easier to pilot then the Squid and the Galleon (at least if you want to win), I just don't want to because I don't like them.

--- End quote ---

Back when I played Pokemon I did not give a damn about the "beauty pageants". I do not think it was logical to care about those. Feature != Something you should care about. Feature = Will make someone somewhere interested. Besides, it's a video game. It's not logcial to care about it at all, strictly speaking. Generally, logic and emotion don't mix. Be careful throwing around the word logic. You've got your opinion, but logic is a harsh mistress who will quickly remove the substructure from your argument.

It's your right to care about levels. Or at least, it's not something someone can take away from you, but GoI doesn't have mechanic advancement like CoD. It's a different mentality. CoD and those games are actually worse! I can't get this special awesome gun until I play for 50 hours? What is that!?
Even RPGs and other games box you in MUCH more than GoI!
What? My mage can't learn meteor until level 27? Well damn it.

In Guns:
Wait, I don't get better repair tools until...oh.
Wait, I can't use the Goldfish until...oh.
Wait, I can't equip a Lumberjack until...oh.

Also I want to point out that the stats are independent of level.
At least, the k/d's get you nothing.

Stats are for people who are interested in that sort of thing. You could play the whole game without ever opening the progress tab. Some folks just like data.
It you care about looking like a high-level guy, then yeah, the game makes you do silly things to get there.
Hey man, you are the one who decided to care about levels. You get everything right off the bat. It's true that some ships are easier to fly, but I suggest to learn and become skilled with all of them! There is a lot of strategy that goes into a good GoI game, and each ship has it's part.

Welcome to Guns of Icarus: where the achievements are made up and the levels don't matter.

Surette:
Plasma summed it up perfectly. Serenum, I understand that you care about your level and that's fine, but to say you're being forced to do anything is just false. I ignore the achievements I don't want to do and my levels are just fine. Having a higher level doesn't unlock anything for me, so it's not like I'm forced to put up with farming achievements in order to use a play style that I haven't unlocked yet. I can play the game exactly how I like from level 1.

Serenum:

--- Quote from: Surette on June 12, 2013, 11:34:36 am ---Plasma summed it up perfectly. Serenum, I understand that you care about your level and that's fine, but to say you're being forced to do anything is just false. I ignore the achievements I don't want to do and my levels are just fine. Having a higher level doesn't unlock anything for me, so it's not like I'm forced to put up with farming achievements in order to use a play style that I haven't unlocked yet. I can play the game exactly how I like from level 1.

--- End quote ---

What I don't understand is why you are defending the status quo of something you don't care about. Then changing it shouldn't cause any issue to you right? What me and other people in this thread are asking is just for the achievement to be all readly available without having to complete them in a specific order, except for the ones that are just "more of the same".
That doesn't sound unreasnable or game breaking to me.

And about level... It matters for 2 things: first, it allows you to unlock cosmetic items without having to spend real money on them. That alone is reason enough.
But then you have to consider that level is supposed to be an indicator of your experience and, up to a certain point, your skill. I'm not bragging but I am a pretty good pilot, thus I want my level to be high enough to represent my skill, so I try to improve my level as quickly as possibile.
Is it necessary? No, but it's something I enjoy and getting enjoyment out of playing is what video games are all about.

So why exactly are you opposed to changes to the achievement system? Why do you enjoy it more in its current form? That's what I would like to understand.

Imagine:

--- Quote from: Serenum on June 12, 2013, 01:52:27 pm ---
--- Quote from: Surette on June 12, 2013, 11:34:36 am ---Plasma summed it up perfectly. Serenum, I understand that you care about your level and that's fine, but to say you're being forced to do anything is just false. I ignore the achievements I don't want to do and my levels are just fine. Having a higher level doesn't unlock anything for me, so it's not like I'm forced to put up with farming achievements in order to use a play style that I haven't unlocked yet. I can play the game exactly how I like from level 1.

--- End quote ---

What I don't understand is why you are defending the status quo of something you don't care about. Then changing it shouldn't cause any issue to you right? What me and other people in this thread are asking is just for the achievement to be all readly available without having to complete them in a specific order, except for the ones that are just "more of the same".
That doesn't sound unreasnable or game breaking to me.

And about level... It matters for 2 things: first, it allows you to unlock cosmetic items without having to spend real money on them. That alone is reason enough.
But then you have to consider that level is supposed to be an indicator of your experience and, up to a certain point, your skill. I'm not bragging but I am a pretty good pilot, thus I want my level to be high enough to represent my skill, so I try to improve my level as quickly as possibile.
Is it necessary? No, but it's something I enjoy and getting enjoyment out of playing is what video games are all about.

So why exactly are you opposed to changes to the achievement system? Why do you enjoy it more in its current form? That's what I would like to understand.

--- End quote ---
I don't think that anyone is arguing that the achievement system is set up perfectly, but there are a few things to consider:

1) Levels affect nothing. Yeah, sure, you get costumes but in no way is that game breaking or inhibiting. I don't agree with your statement of "That alone is reason enough", not even sure why you think that.
2) Levels give a general sense of game experience, but to say that it has something to do with skill is rather false. Considering many of the achievements currently require you to do in game stuff which is actually not a great way to do a job, if you're completing them you're probably hurting your team considering what's going on.
3) While an overhaul of the achievement and level system would be nifty, it's also not broken right now. I'd rather have the glaring problems in the game fixed first before we go onto something that really doesn't affect the game at all.

HamsterIV:

--- Quote from: JaegerDelta on June 12, 2013, 02:48:13 am ---You can also view interpersonal relationships of the players as a secondary renown system, basically like known with in the airship world but not really in the world at large.

--- End quote ---

I choose to view my interpersonal relationships as the primary renown system. There is no mechanical advantage to being high level player. There is a slight social advantage to having a high level, since random people will more likely join the ship of a high level player to avoid getting stuck with a crappy captain. However as most high level players can attest there is also a social disadvantage since it is harder to start a game when the other team doesn't fill up due to perceived level imbalance.

I choose to peruse interpersonal relationships because it is far more gratifying to see "You are a good guy, mind if I add you to my friend's list?" in lobby chat than "*Bing* achievement unlocked!" in the top left corner. If you play the game long enough you will blunder through most of the < level 6 achievements anyway. Most of us assume any one over a level 4 knows what they are doing.

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